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Thread: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

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    Default Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    Assalam alaikum,

    In Ayat 28 of Surat Kahfi of the Holy Qur'an (18:28), Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala says:--

    "AND OBEY NOT HIM WHOSE HEART WE HAVE MADE HEEDLESS OF OUR REMEMBRANCE,
    ONE WHO FOLLOWS HIS OWN LUSTS AND WHOSE AFFAIR HAS BEEN LOST AND WASTED".

    Indeed, every harm that enters upon a servant is caused by the heart's corruption. For corruption of the heart in turn brings about the removal of the heart's right upon Allah, the Exalted, and a diminution of its degree and rank in the sight of Allah. So, be cautious of mixing with people or a person who will cause wastage of time and corruption of the heart. When time is wasted and heart corrupted, all affairs of the servant become ruined. Let us all beware accordingly.
    Many Regards.

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    Default Re: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Fauzi View Post
    Assalam alaikum,

    In Ayat 28 of Surat Kahfi of the Holy Qur'an (18:28), Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala says:--

    "AND OBEY NOT HIM WHOSE HEART WE HAVE MADE HEEDLESS OF OUR REMEMBRANCE,
    ONE WHO FOLLOWS HIS OWN LUSTS AND WHOSE AFFAIR HAS BEEN LOST AND WASTED".

    Indeed, every harm that enters upon a servant is caused by the heart's corruption. For corruption of the heart in turn brings about the removal of the heart's right upon Allah, the Exalted, and a diminution of its degree and rank in the sight of Allah. So, be cautious of mixing with people or a person who will cause wastage of time and corruption of the heart. When time is wasted and heart corrupted, all affairs of the servant become ruined. Let us all beware accordingly.
    Many Regards.
    This verse here is a take off on the Bible where it states "Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers. What fellowship does light have with darkness? Separate from among them and touch not the unclean thing"
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Veteran Member lumumba_s's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    The verse is not a "take off on the Bible", but expresses a religious truth of the effect of one's company, positive or negative, on one's spiritual state and progression.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    The verse is not a "take off on the Bible", but expresses a religious truth of the effect of one's company, positive or negative, on one's spiritual state and progression.
    That religious truth you speak of was in the NT Bible first just as the virgin birth story was of Jesus!
    Peace
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    Default Re: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    Since you do not believe that the virgin birth was a myth, what exactly is your point? I do find interesting the extent to which you argue this point, as if were the Qur'an to express messages and themes so basic as what is entailed in the verses you are trying to undermine, if instead their messages were completely contrary to the Old or New Testament, you would accept it as Divine. The One Who revealed the Qur'an is the same One Who revealed the Torah, Psalms and Gospel of Jesus. That there would be similar themes and messages or articulations of religious truths is only to be expected. If the virgin birth actually occurred, then why should not the Qur'an confirm it? If you want to have a real conversation, I am sure Hyd, Hannahh and myself would welcome it. But this level of interaction, it will lead no where. It is superficial and safe. It is not a discussion. Peace be unto you as well.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 8th January 2014 at 20:12.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Since you do not believe that the virgin birth was a myth, what exactly is your point? I do find interesting the extent to which you argue this point, as if were the Qur'an to express messages and themes so basic as what is entailed in the verses you are trying to undermine, if instead their messages were completely contrary to the Old or New Testament, you would accept it as Divine. The One Who revealed the Qur'an is the same One Who revealed the Torah, Psalms and Gospel of Jesus. That there would be similar themes and messages or articulations of religious truths is only to be expected. If the virgin birth actually occurred, then why should not the Qur'an confirm it? If you want to have a real conversation, I am sure Hyd, Hannahh and myself would welcome it. But this level of interaction, it will lead no where. It is superficial and safe. It is not a discussion. Peace be unto you as well.
    I do not believe the virgin birth was a myth is correct. My point was that Islam accepts the Biblical story as I do of Jesus being born of a virgin, but it rejects the reason given in the Bible for His virgin birth. I accept the original source and the reason it gives. I don't trust an incomplete secondary source such as you do. Why would you expect me to believe differently from the originally source that states the child to be born of the virgin is to be called God with us?

    Peace
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    Your understanding is based on the idea that the Bible was a source text for the Qur'an, whereas we have already discussed this idea and the vast majority of honest historians have rejected such an assertion as absurd. And they reject it as absurd because it would entail our leigelord Muhammad (God's peace and blessings be upon him) recounting stories he would have only potentially heard while casually roaming the trading posts decades prior with an amount of precision that is highly improbable and outright impossible when you consider the scope of "Biblical" stories the Qur'an recounts. It is furthermore even less probable when you consider that most Christians at the time were illiterate and could not read their own texts. That being so, the Qur'an does not "accept" the Biblical story, but it recounts the truth of what happened, often given facts and details that the Bible itself does not give.

    Furthermore, the reason given in the Bible for the virgin birth that you are referring to are reasons given in the letters of Paul and I do not accept that Paul's word has any Divine authority. Paul was not a prophetic-messenger and he was an apostle/companion who spoke on behalf of a prophetic-messenger; not to mention that at least half of the letters of Paul are either known fabrications or misattributions. As many have said, the problem that Muslims and Jews have with Christian interpretations is that they constitute individuals who do not speak and who have not been molded by Semitic languages, looking at Semitic passages and interpreting Semitic metaphor, rhetoric and expression through a Greek or Roman world-view. The Jews did not understand "Immanuel" to literally mean what it translates to in English, just as they did not understand the "Son of God" to literally mean what early Roman converts naturally understood, given their own history of caesars, emperors and kings using the title "Son of God" to claim Divine descendancy. That David and Solomon, for instance, were called "the Son of God" in the Bible, did not motivate the Jews to take them for Divine. Similarly, when Psalms 2 declares that God said to David, "Thou art my Son and this day I have begotten thee", they similarly did not declare David to be God.

    Hence, throughout the New Testament, every time the Jews intuit that Jesus is possibly claiming Divinity, they accuse him of blasphemy and heresy because after centuries of studying their Scripture under the leadership of their prophets, they understood that it was impossible for any human being to be God by the text of the Torah. Furthermore, as Hebrew authorities explain, the word translated by "virgin" in Hebrew in the "Immanuel" verse, actually means simply a young woman of childbearing age who has not given birth and does not necessarily mean a virgin, which is why the footnotes in some Bibles give the alternative interpretation of "young woman" to Isaiah 7:14. So the mere fact that Isaiah 7:14 refers to a child being born called "Immanuel" does not necessarily conclude that God Himself will be born into the world, since the prophecy of Isaiah is that before this child grows into adulthood, the kingdom of the two pagan kings who were fighting Jerusalem would be defeated, the point of the prophecy is not the child, but the destruction of Israel's enemies. Furthermore, given the entire context of the prophecy, it is incredibly difficult to argue that the prophecy of Immanuel refers to Jesus when you take the entire passage into consideration and to your previous point, the Jews would argue that most, if not all, of the passages that the Christians claim prophecized are referring to events which have already occurred. Regardless, even if we accept that Jesus was "Immanuel", that does not necessitate any theological conclusions being drawn. It is a Hebrew metaphor that does not translate well into a language of people prone to believe in God-men.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 9th January 2014 at 01:04.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Your understanding is based on the idea that the Bible was a source text for the Qur'an, whereas we have already discussed this idea and the vast majority of honest historians have rejected such an assertion as absurd. And they reject it as absurd because it would entail our leigelord Muhammad (God's peace and blessings be upon him) recounting stories he would have only potentially heard while casually roaming the trading posts decades prior with an amount of precision that is highly improbable and outright impossible when you consider the scope of "Biblical" stories the Qur'an recounts. It is furthermore even less probable when you consider that most Christians at the time were illiterate and could not read their own texts. That being so, the Qur'an does not "accept" the Biblical story, but it recounts the truth of what happened, often given facts and details that the Bible itself does not give..
    The probability of Muhammad hearing Bible stories while roaming is not absurd at all. After all Muhammad had a Christian friend with him. The proof is in the pudding; he gave a NT account of the virgin birth of Jesus that had been documented long before he was born and had been shared and shared again through the ages by story tradition, but it originated with the NT Bible. The scholars saying it's absurd that this would filter down to Muhammad is absurd to say the least. They have no substance to base that on.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Furthermore, the reason given in the Bible for the virgin birth that you are referring to are reasons given in the letters of Paul and I do not accept that Paul's word has any Divine authority. Paul was not a prophetic-messenger and he was an apostle/companion who spoke on behalf of a prophetic-messenger; not to mention that at least half of the letters of Paul are either known fabrications or misattributions. As many have said, the problem that Muslims and Jews have with Christian interpretations is that they constitute individuals who do not speak and who have not been molded by Semitic languages, looking at Semitic passages and interpreting Semitic metaphor, rhetoric and expression through a Greek or Roman world-view. The Jews did not understand "Immanuel" to literally mean what it translates to in English, just as they did not understand the "Son of God" to literally mean what early Roman converts naturally understood, given their own history of caesars, emperors and kings using the title "Son of God" to claim Divine descendancy. That David and Solomon, for instance, were called "the Son of God" in the Bible, did not motivate the Jews to take them for Divine. Similarly, when Psalms 2 declares that God said to David, "Thou art my Son and this day I have begotten thee", they similarly did not declare David to be God..
    It was Matthew that said the virgin birth of Jesus was a fulfillment of Isaiah 7, but Isaiah 7 was a sign to King Ahaz and fulfilled at his time; so, it must have been a dual prophecy. But the child being called Immanuel didn't mean God/man like you said; it meant God is with you, and don't fear the battle.

    I am glad that Islam accepts that Jesus was born of a virgin, because it supports against some scholars saying Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, but I believe the story was imperfectly borrowed from the NT Bible, because I see no other source for Muhammad.

    Paul was against Christianity more than Muslims are today in the Middle East. Jesus knocked him off his high horse and he suffered a lot to share the gospel so his testimony is credible to me even though he sometimes said some hard things
    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Hence, throughout the New Testament, every time the Jews intuit that Jesus is possibly claiming Divinity, they accuse him of blasphemy and heresy because after centuries of studying their Scripture under the leadership of their prophets, they understood that it was impossible for any human being to be God by the text of the Torah. Furthermore, as Hebrew authorities explain, the word translated by "virgin" in Hebrew in the "Immanuel" verse, actually means simply a young woman of childbearing age who has not given birth and does not necessarily mean a virgin, which is why the footnotes in some Bibles give the alternative interpretation of "young woman" to Isaiah 7:14. So the mere fact that Isaiah 7:14 refers to a child being born called "Immanuel" does not necessarily conclude that God Himself will be born into the world, since the prophecy of Isaiah is that before this child grows into adulthood, the kingdom of the two pagan kings who were fighting Jerusalem would be defeated, the point of the prophecy is not the child, but the destruction of Israel's enemies. Furthermore, given the entire context of the prophecy, it is incredibly difficult to argue that the prophecy of Immanuel refers to Jesus when you take the entire passage into consideration and to your previous point, the Jews would argue that most, if not all, of the passages that the Christians claim prophecized are referring to events which have already occurred. Regardless, even if we accept that Jesus was "Immanuel", that does not necessitate any theological conclusions being drawn. It is a Hebrew metaphor that does not translate well into a language of people prone to believe in God-men.
    I know all about the young woman of Isaiah, but the fact is both Muslims and Christians believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, but we believe the reason the source of that information gives for His virgin birth. He had to be born without sin; He was born of God not sired by God, but born of God and not by the will of flesh and blood. Jesus is way more special that Muslims give Him credit for.

    He is the brightness of God's glory and the exact express image of His person. Yes, He was less than the father in function, office and position, but He was equal in essence with God, in character and nature, and He's not God's associate or partner, but God's word in the flesh; the son of the living God who is coming back with vengeance to judge the living and the dead.

    God has committed all judgment to the son so that we might honor Him the same as the father. It will be a terrible day when He returns; it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Jesus is the only one that could say I and my father are one. I am the way and the truth and the life. He didn't say I show the way like mere messengers and mere prophets. He is the true seal of all prophets. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords and that will be written on His thigh when He comes back in the glory of the father with the holy angels Every knee shall bow and tongue confess that He is Lord to the glory of the father even those going to hell.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 9th January 2014 at 05:17.
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    Default Re: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    And considering that Jesus is mentioned with 24 other prophets in the Bible, many of which includes details of their stories, some details of which are not mentioned in the Bible and have been proven to be true nonetheless (along with mistakes that the Qur'an corrects), it is very improbable. We are not talking about stories, but detailed accounts of incidents mentioned all throughout the Old Testament, along with details about Mary and Jesus, of which hearing stories while "roaming around" on two trips to Damascus when he was 25 does not explain. Your claim is the one without substance and it is based rejection of his prophethood, which is clearly borne out by the fact that you cannot so much as fathom it being the result of Divine inspiration, since you see no other "source" for a man who only spoke Arabic and was unable to read it, than religious material which was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. He did not hear stories while in Syria and then recount them with complete accuracy and detail some 20 years later. So excuse me if I do not agree that you are the "objective" personality that you have convinced yourself you are and Jesus is merely a prophetic messenger, as the NT itself clearly says the people understood him to be. And for the record, there is no proof that Matthew wrote the book which carries his name.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 9th January 2014 at 07:06.
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    Default Re: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    And considering that Jesus is mentioned with 24 other prophets in the Bible, many of which includes details of their stories, some details of which are not mentioned in the Bible and have been proven to be true nonetheless (along with mistakes that the Qur'an corrects), it is very improbable..
    Actually I have know idea what you're saying here. What is improbable? Excuse me if I don't believe that the Quran corrects mistakes from where it borrowed its information whether through story tradition or otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    We are not talking about stories, but detailed accounts of incidents mentioned all throughout the Old Testament, along with details about Mary and Jesus, of which hearing stories while "roaming around" on two trips to Damascus when he was 25 does not explain. Your claim is the one without substance and it is based rejection of his prophethood, which is clearly borne out by the fact that you cannot so much as fathom it being the result of Divine inspiration, since you see no other "source" for a man who only spoke Arabic and was unable to read it, than religious material which was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. He did not hear stories while in Syria and then recount them with complete accuracy and detail some 20 years later. .
    You cannot prove this, and you don't know if Muhammad had a very good memory. Since he couldn't read or write he depended on memory more than most. Personally, I think he was informed about what Christians believe from others, but he didn't exactly get the trinity story right, and he rejected the reason given for Jesus' virgin birth or he didn't get that message. The reason I believe Muhammad is still waiting for his prophet passport goes back to the time of Ishmael. Most Muslims claim him to be a descendant of Ishmael. If you look at the Biblical account in Gen. 21 and 17 (the torah) you will see that Ishmael was no prophet; in fact, he was rejected as the child of promise. Muhammad doesn't come from a prophetic line from the very beginning. Ishmael and his slave mother wanted him to be the child of promise, and that tension has followed us all the way to the 21 century. God, Abraham and Sarah rejected and casted out the bond woman and her son. That is why I reject an Islamic message that doesn't confirm the Scripture that came before but usurps it. To be honest with you, I ask God how is it that after Muslims hear me share the gospel, how can they can still remain in Islam. It totally blows my mind, and I am in total awe (awestruck). This is one reason I am interested in learning about Islam and its glue that holds you. I don't get it or see it!


    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    So excuse me if I do not agree that you are the "objective" personality that you have convinced yourself you are and Jesus is merely a prophetic messenger, as the NT itself clearly says the people understood him to be. And for the record, there is no proof that Matthew wrote the book which carries his name.
    I excuse you and most people will, but will God excuse you? That is the question you need to ask. Jesus is not merely a messenger. The NT doesn't say that either. Perhaps you are confusing messenger with prophet. A prophet can act as a messenger, but angels are messengers. Angel means messenger. Supposedly, Gabriel delivered the message to Muhammad so Gabriel was the messenger and Muhammad merely recited what he heard; that doesn't make him a prophet of God. Prophets heard directly from God. God never spoke to Ishmael as well. The Bible shows Jesus to be the message and not a messenger. Nevertheless, He is considered a prophet because God spoke to him. God never spoke to Muhammad. Demons are know to masquerade as angels of light or to impersonate God or other angels. I believe it wasn't Gabriel that spoke to Muhammad.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 9th January 2014 at 14:44.
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    Default Re: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    Many of your opinions are ill informed and present a stumbling block for you. In that, I encourage you to continue in your quest to learn about Islam. I just hope that your intentions will change and you will eventually do so from more objective, less hostile sources as many of us did. Not all of us were born into this religion. Have a nice day, sir.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 9th January 2014 at 18:08.
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    Default Re: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Many of your opinions are ill informed and present a stumbling block for you. In that, I encourage you to continue in your quest to learn about Islam. I just hope that your intentions will change and you will eventually do so from more objective, less hostile sources as many of us did. Not all of us were born into this religion. Have a nice day, sir.
    I don't see it as just my opinion about Islam or as stumbling blocks to truth; I see it as following Islam would be going against the Scriptures that even Allah tells me to stand on. He says that we people of the book can do nothing unless we stand on what has been revealed to us and that we are to judge what he put therein, and I am doing that with the torah and gospel you believe he handed down to Muhammad. The Quran was given to the Arabs through Muhammad. It wasn't given to me or us Christians of the book. Islam is an Arabic religion; so, to you be your religion and to me be mine!

    Peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 9th January 2014 at 21:53.
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    Default Re: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    The Old Testament is a Jewish Scripture, as was the New Testament. The Bible was given to the Hebrews, in the language of the Hebrews and its Romanization was a latter development. Jesus did not speak Greek, neither did any of his Apostles. They actually spoke Aramaic, which is intricately tied to the classical Arab that the Qur'an was revealed in - few of them spoke or read classical Hebrew. The Qur'an was revealed to the Arabs, but is a message for the entire world. Hence, most Muslims are not Arabs, have not been for a very long time and the Muslim world encompassed the entirety of humanity. So unless you are Jewish, neither the Torah nor the Gospel were revealed to you. And the people to whom they were revealed to have a vastly different understanding of them then the people who would later take over their religion. Hence, many Orthodox Jews commonly tell people to follow Muhammad, as they recognize his message "like they know their own sons", as did the vast majority of non-European Christians who came across the Qur'an. The Bible was not revealed in Greek and Jesus did not minister to the Germanic tribes. In respect to it, the original language and circumstances of its original people clearly does not matter to you. Judaism is an Jewish religion, as was the Christianity of the original Apostles. Hence, your logic is twisted and evidence of precisely what I just said. Peace be unto you as well.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 9th January 2014 at 23:04.
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    Default Re: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    The Old Testament is a Jewish Scripture, as was the New Testament. The Bible was given to the Hebrews, in the language of the Hebrews and its Romanization was a latter development. Jesus did not speak Greek, neither did any of his Apostles. They actually spoke Aramaic, which is intricately tied to the classical Arab that the Qur'an was revealed in - few of them spoke or read classical Hebrew. The Qur'an was revealed to the Arabs, but is a message for the entire world. Hence, most Muslims are not Arabs, have not been for a very long time and the Muslim world encompassed the entirety of humanity. So unless you are Jewish, neither the Torah nor the Gospel were revealed to you. And the people to whom they were revealed to have a vastly different understanding of them then the people who would later take over their religion. Hence, many Orthodox Jews commonly tell people to follow Muhammad, as they recognize his message "like they know their own sons", as did the vast majority of non-European Christians who came across the Qur'an. The Bible was not revealed in Greek and Jesus did not minister to the Germanic tribes. In respect to it, the original language and circumstances of its original people clearly does not matter to you. Judaism is an Jewish religion, as was the Christianity of the original Apostles. Hence, your logic is twisted and evidence of precisely what I just said. Peace be unto you as well.
    Yes, the OT was written in Hebrew (original earliest Scriptures) and the latter Scriptures were written in Greek and yes Jesus spoke Aramaic, but it is not about language; it is about truth. We know from Jesus' own lips that He is the truth, the life and the way. We know Jesus is a prophet and we know He is the only way to God as He said. "No man comes to the father except through me" Did you know that Jesus meant God when He said "the father?"
    Islam is asking me to choose between Jesus and Muhammad, and for us true Biblical Christians, that is a no brainer. Muslims ask us Christians to choose Muhammad as seal of prophets and Mormons ask us to choose Joseph Smith as seal of prophets. Wow, I not only believe by faith I am safe with Jesus, but I feel safe with Him. Muhammad and Smith do not fit into the equation, but I appreciate you sharing your views and I pray God's blessings to you.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Ayat 28 Of Surat Kahfi Considered.

    And Jesus also said that he was sent to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel and so his statements must be taken in the context of which they were said. Prior to his statement that you are so fond of, he said, "In my Father's house there are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you (O Lost Sheep of Israel)" being that I am the prophet who was sent by God to you, "No one goes to the Father except through me" since me being the prophet sent to you, belief in God necessitates belief and following of me. Hence, whenever Jesus came across someone to whom he was not sent, he simply told them to follow the general moral commandments and did not encourage them to follow him, for to them he was not sent. And his Apostles continued to minister only to Jews in their temples and synagogues, believing that Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles and thus, the first Church and Temple in Jerusalem composed of his followers were made up entirely of Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah. Hence, Jesus is the prophet to the Jews and Muhammad became the prophet to the rest of mankind.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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