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Thread: information sought from Christian friends

  1. #31
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    Default Re: information sought from Christian friends

    Quote Originally Posted by BL
    You are not understanding Adam is a manifestation or God's word who was Jesus in His preexistent state as the word of God. Jesus as the son of man is not just a manifestation of God's word, but He is God's actual word incarnate. Incarnate means God's word was made flesh or a person or a man!
    Hence, I said our definition is different. Follow the conversation: http://forums.understanding-islam.co...l=1#post184673

    If you want to convert people at least have an honest discussion rather then this sneaky verbal aerobatics.

    I repeat: in Islam both are manifestations of God's word, neither of them God, and both are creation of God; hence, I said our definition of the word of God is different than yours. End of story.

    Quote Originally Posted by BL
    Jesus is the last Adam! This was not the case for the first Adam who introduced sin into the world.
    Can't follow your logic there. Adam was god too? Or was god if he didn't introduce sin?

    By the way, in Islam there is no original sin. Islamic perspective of Adam and Eve start:


    Quote Originally Posted by BL
    I'll pray for you.
    Like wise, may God guide you how He truly wants to be worshiped! Ameen!
    Last edited by hyd; 23rd January 2014 at 20:19.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: information sought from Christian friends

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    Hence, I said our definition is different. Follow the conversation: http://forums.understanding-islam.co...l=1#post184673!
    Okay, I accept your definition is different, but as I mentioned, not only your definition but also our God and Jesus are different.

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    If you want to convert people at least have an honest discussion rather then this sneaky verbal aerobatics.!
    I don't want to convert anyone; otherwise, you'd be my convert. I don't take converts. I would like to see God draw you to Christ that is all.

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    I repeat: in Islam both are manifestations of God's word, neither of them God, and both are creation of God; hence, I said our definition of the word of God is different than yours. End of story.!
    I accept that both are a creation of God in Islam, but in the Bible only Adam is God's creation and Jesus is the word of God incarnate who preexisted with God. This doesn't make God different. He is always the same. He just manifested Himself through Christ as the word of God. Adam was not God but he was a son of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post

    Can't follow your logic there. Adam was god too? Or was god if he didn't introduce sin?!
    No, and it has nothing to do with logic of mine

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    By the way, in Islam there is no original sin. Islamic perspective of Adam and Eve start:
    !
    I know. THAT IS ONE MORE THING THAT CONTRDICTS Scripture. The prophet David said "I was sinful at birth" Moreover, this guy makes a mockery of the Scripture that came before

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post

    Like wise, may God guide you how He truly wants to be worshiped! Ameen!
    I thank you
    Last edited by Burninglight; 23rd January 2014 at 21:40.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  3. #33
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    Default Re: information sought from Christian friends

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Burninglight,

    You're still at the same spot, stuck in the mud. Prior to his physical existence on earth, JEsus supposedly preexisted in a different shape or what you call "the word", this conflicts with Mal3:6"I the Lord do not change".?
    This is the vese. Nothing I said contradicts this. 6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed. 7 From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from my statutes and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you, says the Lord of hosts. But you say, ‘How shall we return?’ 8

    Maybe you should look at Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell? Jesus being the word of God changes nothing about God. Is this your idea of dealing with my comments that you say I pretend I don't read? As you can see, you are not addressing the issue, and I am in no mud, but you are trying to push me in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    As to "No one else will be made right on their own without Christ", why are John's parents upright in God's sight, observing all commandements blamelessly Lk1:6 and why did Yahweh give a set a of laws within anyone's reach as a means for salvation Deut30:10-14?
    Because John was filled with the Holy Spirit from birth and He accepted Jesus as the one he wasn't worthy of and His parents accepted Jesus as the Messiah and who is the way. All people were considered upright that accepted the promise, the shadows and types that point to Jesus, but once Jesus appears the shadow does no good
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  4. #34
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    Default Re: information sought from Christian friends

    Simply quoting the verse, which i already did, after stating that it doesnt contradict your statement isnt what will pull you out of the mud you put yourself in. When he was "the word", Jesus as you have said, did not exist in the physical shape he later took when he came to earth. This means he changed from a state to another, thus contradicting "I the Lord do not change".

    At the time John's parents were upright and blamelessly observing God's laws, neither Jesus nor John were born so what messiah acceptance you speaking of? As to your coment about David in the previous post, the psalms says "I was shapen with iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me".
    David states he was created with/in sin (the letter used to indicate ‘in’ can also mean ‘with’) and cites the reason; he is the product of sin, and this implies that parents pass onto the children's genes not only a physical but also a spiritual baggage. This creates an inclination towards sin, not that the person is an accountable sinner simply due to that defect, in accordance with verses like Deut24:16 clearly stating that none is punished for the sins of the ancestors. That inclination can be overcome using freewill as seen in Cain's story Gen4:7"you can rule over it (ie over sin)". David in that passage recognizes his inclination to sin due to his innate spiritual defects, expresses his sorrow for his sin with Batsheba, and pleads for mercy on account of that sinful impulse. In line with the story of Cain who was told by God to make the right choice by himself, because it was within his reach, the same David similarily recognizes that uprightness of heart is a condition that can be achieved by the righteous Ps32:11"Be happy in God, and rejoice O righteous. Cry out in joy, all upright of heart" and by the one who freely Ps34:14"Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it". This does not agree with the Christian notion of inherited sinfulness that can never be overcome by humans alone and their own freechoices and deeds, hence the necessity of a global sin offering incarnated by Jesus.

    As to the Proverbs 30 quote, not sure exactly why you brought it up but since you did can you answer the verse's opening question "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?" and then connect that answer with the end statement "what is his name, and what is his son’s name"?
    Last edited by naderM; 23rd January 2014 at 23:13.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: information sought from Christian friends

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Simply quoting the verse, which i already did, after stating that it doesnt contradict your statement isnt what will pull you out of the mud you put yourself in. When he was "the word", Jesus as you have said, did not exist in the physical shape he later took when he came to earth. This means he changed from a state to another, thus contradicting "I the Lord do not change".
    That is not what God meant by "I change not." For instance, God loves His creation; therefore, he sent His son in the likeness of sinful flesh to redeem us. That is not God changing; He is still a God of love, mercy, forgiveness and true justice. Jesus reflects the unchanging God as the brightness of His glory. He reveals the unchanging father to us. That is why Jesus said, "If you have seen me You have seen the father!"
    Jesus has taken me out of the mud and set me on a rock. He is the Rock of my salvation!!!
    Last edited by Burninglight; 24th January 2014 at 04:32.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    "I was shapen with iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me".
    David states he was created with/in sin (the letter used to indicate ‘in’ can also mean ‘with’) and cites the reason; he is the product of sin, and this implies that parents pass onto the children's genes not only a physical but also a spiritual baggage. This creates an inclination towards sin, not that the person is an accountable sinner simply due to that defect, in accordance with verses like Deut24:16 clearly stating that none is punished for the sins of the ancestors. That inclination can be overcome using freewill as seen in Cain's story Gen4:7"you can rule over it (ie over sin)". David in that passage recognizes his inclination to sin due to his innate spiritual defects, expresses his sorrow for his sin with Batsheba, and pleads for mercy on account of that sinful impulse. In line with the story of Cain who was told by God to make the right choice by himself, because it was within his reach, the same David similarily recognizes that uprightness of heart is a condition that can be achieved by the righteous Ps32:11"Be happy in God, and rejoice O righteous. Cry out in joy, all upright of heart" and by the one who freely Ps34:14"Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it". This does not agree with the Christian notion of inherited sinfulness that can never be overcome by humans alone and their own freechoices and deeds, hence the necessity of a global sin offering incarnated by Jesus."?
    Let's look at the verse closer and in context:
    Psalm 51:5-9

    New International Version (NIV)
    5
    Surely I was sinful at birth,
    sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
    6
    Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
    you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

    I rest my case.
    So much for being a Muslim at birth.
    I promise you I was never one nor was David


    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    As to the Proverbs 30 quote, not sure exactly why you brought it up but since you did can you answer the verse's opening question "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?" and then connect that answer with the end statement "what is his name, and what is his son’s name"?
    I bet you see lots of problems with the Quran as well, but will you share your doubts with us? Since, you brought up the first part of the verse I quoted to my attention, why don't you tell us who ascended or descended and while you're at it tell me His son's name.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 24th January 2014 at 00:57.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  7. #37
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    Default Re: information sought from Christian friends

    It says God doesnt change, period. You're the one putting a specification where there is none, obviously to try and pull yourself out of the mud. This unchanging nature includes any kind of evolution or transformation, whether from the point of view of his attributes or his shape. Another verse was shown previously saying God isnt a human being.

    The Quran doesnt say people are born Muslims, but that they have no spiritual defect at birth, they are born upright with the innate ability to recognize truth from falsehood. Psalms 51 doesnt support your idea of spiritual depravity at all, and it was shown why, namely the fact that humans can, on their own, rule over their evil inclination (no precondition of divine grace or belief in JEsus), do good and be upright of heart. You of course ignore and go on with your falsehood. David certainly was a Muslim according to the strict meaning of the word since he wholeheartedly submitted to his God, and he was neither a polytheist, nor one to believe in the deity of anyone who would once walk the earth.

    As to Proverbs 30, i asked you something specific and i know why. Who ascended and descended to and from heaven? who is that person's son?
    Last edited by naderM; 24th January 2014 at 08:13.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by DocW

    My belief is that Paradise will be for the Sadiqeen those who are truthful. I do not believe that Paradise will have people of just one faith but good people from all religions and some with no faith. If they used their intellect and honestly reached the decision that there is no God. They cannot be penalised.

    Quote: We all have free will, but those that are committed to the Lord try to get to a point where they are not controlled by what they want to do, but by what God wants them to do.

    How can it be free will if your will is controlled by God? It is then God's will.

    So, you believe that a person who considers God a fairy tale and teaches others that God is as real as a spaghetti monster will go to paradise, because they do good deeds and Christians are going to hell for believing Jesus is the son of God the uncreated eternal word of God who preexisted from before the foundations of the world?I don't even think that is Islamic and it most certainly is not Christian

    Please read my quote above. Where have I stated that the criteria for going into Paradise is to be a Muslim? Where have I stated that all Christians will go into hell? Let us remain academic

  9. #39
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    How can Satan be in heaven. Can you explain?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    It says God doesnt change, period. You're the one putting a specification where there is none, obviously to try and pull yourself out of the mud. This unchanging nature includes any kind of evolution or transformation, whether from the point of view of his attributes or his shape. Another verse was shown previously saying God isnt a human being.?
    That is just it, His nature never changes. If you have an ice cube and let it melt does the nature of H2o change, because it is now in a different form? This obtuse questioning of yours will not pull you out of the mud.

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    The Quran doesnt say people are born Muslims, but that they have no spiritual defect at birth, they are born upright with the innate ability to recognize truth from falsehood. Psalms 51 doesnt support your idea of spiritual depravity at all, and it was shown why, namely the fact that humans can, on their own, rule over their evil inclination (no precondition of divine grace or belief in JEsus), do good and be upright of heart. You of course ignore and go on with your falsehood. David certainly was a Muslim according to the strict meaning of the word since he wholeheartedly submitted to his God, and he was neither a polytheist, nor one to believe in the deity of anyone who would once walk the earth.

    As to Proverbs 30, i asked you something specific and i know why. Who ascended and descended to and from heaven? who is that person's son?
    David saying "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." is pretty clear. David was a prophet who committed adultery and Murder. The only prophet who never sinned was Jesus. Muslims try to tell me that even Muhammad was without sin when the Quran states that Allah found him wandering and set him on the straight path. Wandering means lost and lost means in sin. Only God is good Jesus said. Since Jesus is the same nature as God because He is His word, He too is without sin.

    You are telling me that atheists who use their intellect and come to the conclusion there is no God will go to paradise. Are you making this stuff up or is it what Islam teaches? So, the Christian who uses his intellect to conclude that Jesus is equal in nature to God goes to hell? That my friend is hypocritical bull poop!!! And that is to say the least.
    Look, we are not getting anywhere; the best thing I can hope to accomplish with you is to dispel misconceptions you and all Muslims have about Biblical Christianity.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 24th January 2014 at 13:25.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  11. #41
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    You´re repeating psalms 51 without addressing the argument once more, without taking into account all the places stating man can rule over his evil inclination on his own, no preconditions needed. You´re ignoring what even your NT states about people being upright in God´s sight for their blameless observance of the Law, no preconditions needed. So the mud is still there, up to your neck and all around you.

    Of course that H2O has its nature transformed as it passes from its solid to liquid state, and you´re making a false analogy anyway. You´re talking of a spiritual entity (the word) that becomes physical (human Jesus). Is the spirit of the same nature as the physical?
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

  12. #42
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    The premise that Jesus is God has the following weaknesses.
    1. What about the mankind before the birth of Christ?
    2. Christ never wrote or left a Divine Scripture in his life time.
    3. Christ came to one nationa nd claim to be for one nation. God for one nation not the world.
    4. Christ then dies on The Cross. But then the belief that he is still alive.
    5. Christ considered to be part the concept of Trinity that no one can explain and say is mystery. One for three and three for one.
    6. God born to a human mother. How /why.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    You´re repeating psalms 51 without addressing the argument once more, without taking into account all the places stating man can rule over his evil inclination on his own, no preconditions needed. You´re ignoring what even your NT states about people being upright in God´s sight for their blameless observance of the Law, no preconditions needed. So the mud is still there, up to your neck and all around you.?
    Okay, so are you one who is blameless before God; are Muslims blameless because they follow their 5 pillars of faith and all the laws of the Bible? if yes, then I have nothing to say further about this. If you believe it is possible for man to live perfect and upright in his or her own strength, all the human power to you. I know I cannot do it; I surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

    I still believe you are making a mistake by thinking you can do it in your own strength, but I can understand how you can make that argument based on what the Bible says. But I believe living upright is impossible without divine intervention that works through our faith. We will both give account to God about our rationale on this. Meanwhile, I don't want to argue with you. As far as David's words, it is self explanatory.

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Of course that H2O has its nature transformed as it passes from its solid to liquid state, and you´re making a false analogy anyway. You´re talking of a spiritual entity (the word) that becomes physical (human Jesus). Is the spirit of the same nature as the physical?
    There really is no analogy for the trinity, but I will say, that even when H20 changes from a solid to a liquid it is still H20, and that was the only point I was trying to make. So go ahead and see me in mud up to my neck and all around, LOL, but I see myself as one pulled out of the mud and set on a rock. And that Rock is Jesus Christ!
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocW View Post
    The premise that Jesus is God has the following weaknesses.
    1. What about the mankind before the birth of Christ?
    2. Christ never wrote or left a Divine Scripture in his life time.
    3. Christ came to one nationa nd claim to be for one nation. God for one nation not the world.
    4. Christ then dies on The Cross. But then the belief that he is still alive.
    5. Christ considered to be part the concept of Trinity that no one can explain and say is mystery. One for three and three for one.
    6. God born to a human mother. How /why.
    The Bible and No Christians say that Jesus is God the father. So that ends the following weaknesses you posted.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Interestingly Jews don't believe in original sin either: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ginal_Sin.html
    So that throws a different light on the OT verse about David: http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the...reader/?p=1459

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