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Thread: information sought from Christian friends

  1. #16
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
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    Default Re: information sought from Christian friends

    the real reason is you cannot gainsay the truth I post, and you would rather keep your head in the sand and believe a lie
    Could also be due to the fact that you failed defending and supporting a system and doctrines that have been shown to be flawed, irrelevant, irrational, contradictory on many levels including internally ie in light of the very scriptures you claim support you, historically ie in light of external and independent evidence, logically, and against human reason and ingrained consciousness of the truth, and by all posters you engaged with on different threads, yet you act as if nothing was said, ignore the problems and keep repeating yourself?
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    ^ pfft, the drama. But I do recommend visit a mosque.


    Our definition is different than Christian definition. Word means the power of God, the he says something to exist and it comes into existence e.g. Universe(s), Adam, Jesus, etc... For Adam and Jesus it is used because for people it is something extra ordinary so God explain that He says something to "be" and it comes into existence and that is the power of God.
    That is not altogether different, because we believe the word of God is the power of God as well. So, I am understanding that according to the Quran Jesus is "a word to Mary" if that word is "Be" this shows that Jesus is the word "Be;" therefore, He is the word God used to create all things as stated in the Scriptures that came before such as "All things were made by Him for Him and through Him and without was nothing made that was made." Keep in mind that "Be" is a form of "I am." Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I am." God told Moses "I am."

    The Scripture states that in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God Jn 1. That is not an easy Scripture to understand or accept; for instance, how can the word be with someone and be someone? It is like the trinity concept; it cannot be explained. It is foolish, IMO, to try. The concept is other worldly and cannot be explained by mortal man. That's why it is so God.

    Muslims tell me it is not logical or "flawed, irrelevant, irrational, contradictory and against human reason..." Some Muslims attempt to prove it by showing me that 1+1+1=1 is not logical, but the truth is that that and other number sequence or mathematical equations are a creation of God; therefore, using the creation to explain the Creator or what is possible or not about the Creator should be considered flawed. IOW, Muslims have no reason to reject the Scripture of Jn. 1: 1.

    If man depends on the logic and reasoning of math or human understanding to determine what is or isn't true about God, that man has brought God down to his image and likeness by limiting Him to what he can understanding with his finite reasoning. In essence, it is man making logic and reasoning his god. It is written: "As high as the heavens are from the earth are His ways from ours and His thoughts from our thoughts." It is written: "there is a way that seems right to a man but that way leads to death"

    People cannot just throw out the Scripture of Jn 1:1 just because it doesn't fit their logical thought pattern or because it goes against their religion; otherwise, these people have made reason, logic and religion their gods and God will judge them for it severely because that is their unholy trinity.

    Peace to those that have the Prince of Peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 23rd January 2014 at 09:38.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  3. #18
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    Default Re: information sought from Christian friends

    Quote; The trinity is a mystery; God is one and He is past finding out. End of story.

    Why do you think a matter which is pivitol to your belief remians a mystery and not even gets mentioned in the Holy Scripture.

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    Quote; It is God who puts in me the will to do according to His good pleasure and not me trying in my own effort to do good deeds as if I could merit and take credit for saving myself. Judge yourself if an atheist does good deeds, do you think God will let him in paradise?

    Are you saying you never had free will. You have never yourself chosen to perform good deeds. Becasue you belief in Jesus good deeds are performed by you becasue of God's pleasure in your faith.

    My belief is that Paradise will be for the Sadiqeen those who are truthful. I do not believe that Paradise will have people of just one faith but good people from all religions and some with no faith. If they used their intellect and honestly reached the decision that there is no God. They cannot be penalised.

  5. #20
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    Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

    When ever I read this passage I cannot undertsand how it is never understood for what it literally means.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BL
    That is not altogether different, because we believe the word of God is the power of God as well. So, I am understanding that according to the Quran Jesus is "a word to Mary" if that word is "Be" this shows that Jesus is the word "Be;"....
    Seems like you didn't understand what I said there, so let me narrow it down to make it simple: "He[God] says [words] something to exist and it comes into existence e.g. Universe(s) [emphasis], Adam, Jesus, etc..."
    And that is our definition.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    Seems like you didn't understand what I said there, so let me narrow it down to make it simple: "He[God] says [words] something to exist and it comes into existence e.g. Universe(s) [emphasis], Adam, Jesus, etc..."
    And that is our definition.
    I understood you perfectly. Does the Quran say that Allah said Jesus is a word from him (Allah/God)? If you answer yes, then that word was made flesh though the miracle birth of Jesus, right?

    I am trying to reconcile truths in the Quran with truths in the Bible. According to the NT Bible Jesus is the word of God and obviously according the Scriptures, He is the word incarnate. The difference between Islam and Christianity on this issue is that Islam says Jesus is a messenger, but Bible states he is the Message. There is a huge difference that Muslims don't see here. This distinction must be made.

    It is more believable that if the word of God is sent to Mary for the Jews from where God intended His word to go to first before being the universal message for all, that Jesus is that Message and not a messenger. The Jews had plenty of messengers; God did something different with Jesus that is why He is the Messiah. All other prophets were never Messiah and Abraham and Moses weren't.

    Since Muslims appeal to logic and reason so strongly, I am addressing this from that perspective. Again, does Allah say Jesus is a word from him or a messenger? Answer please. If Jesus is a word from God, was He made flesh? Yes or no. Finally, does the NT Bible state that Jesus is the word of God incarnate?

    Peace
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  8. #23
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
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    Default Re: information sought from Christian friends

    No you didnt get it. All things are manifestations of God's creative word, the only difference being in the way the word manifests itself in each case (mountain, cloud, human being, etc).

    And where does the NT state that Jesus preexisted with God physically? God's word is no more a distinct person from himself than your word/purpose is a distinct person from yourself. When God created light with his word in Genesis, light became the manifestation of His will through the word BE, not Himself.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocW View Post
    Quote; It is God who puts in me the will to do according to His good pleasure and not me trying in my own effort to do good deeds as if I could merit and take credit for saving myself. Judge yourself if an atheist does good deeds, do you think God will let him in paradise?

    Are you saying you never had free will. You have never yourself chosen to perform good deeds. Becasue you belief in Jesus good deeds are performed by you becasue of God's pleasure in your faith.

    My belief is that Paradise will be for the Sadiqeen those who are truthful. I do not believe that Paradise will have people of just one faith but good people from all religions and some with no faith. If they used their intellect and honestly reached the decision that there is no God. They cannot be penalised.
    We all have free will, but those that are committed to the Lord try to get to a point where they are not controlled by what they want to do, but by what God wants them to do. Jesus is the author and finisher of their faith.

    So, you believe that a person who considers God a fairy tale and teaches others that God is as real as a spaghetti monster will go to paradise, because they do good deeds and Christians are going to hell for believing Jesus is the son of God the uncreated eternal word of God who preexisted from before the foundations of the world?

    I don't even think that is Islamic and it most certainly is not Christian
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    No you didnt get it. All things are manifestations of God's creative word, the only difference being in the way the word manifests itself in each case (mountain, cloud, human being, etc)..
    I understand, but what I am saying is Jesus is the manifested word for all creation, because He is the word of God. The word of God is eternal and uncreated. What is it your not understanding? It is written: "In Him we live and move and have our being and all things are held together by the word of His power."

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    And where does the NT state that Jesus preexisted with God physically? .
    Where did I say that He preexisted physically? I never said that. I said He preexisted as the word of God in the beginning. Jesus said "Father glorify thou me with the glory I had with thee before the creation of the worlds." You just don't know who Jesus is, and you need to know to have eternal life! That is the difference between paradise or no paradise! You are accountable because you have heard all the truth.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  11. #26
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
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    As already explained to you, God states all throughout the OT that he does not change. So to candidly admit that Jesus whom you say is God, preexisted in a different shape along with God (god preexisting with god?) until he turned human means he changed. Whichever way you turn it, your doctrines keep conflicting with the scriptures you claim support you. Jesus is the word of God like a rock is, the only difference being in the process by which the word manifests itself.

    Jesus' glory (not Jesus himself) preexisting with God is an issue already dealt with there, but you ignore and repeat your arguments as if nothing was said to you and then you complain about people not bothering with your mantras anymore?
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    As already explained to you, God states all throughout the OT that he does not change. So to candidly admit that Jesus whom you say is God, preexisted in a different shape along with God (god preexisting with god?) until he turned human means he changed. Whichever way you turn it, your doctrines keep conflicting with the scriptures you claim support you. Jesus is the word of God like a rock is, the only difference being in the process by which the word manifests itself.

    Jesus' glory (not Jesus himself) preexisting with God is an issue already dealt with there, but you ignore and repeat your arguments as if nothing was said to you and then you complain about people not bothering with your mantras anymore?
    God is the same and Jesus is the same as quoted in the SCRIPTURE. "He (Jesus) is the same yesterday, today and forever." You are an intelligent person, and I am sure you can understand that I didn't say Jesus preexisted with God physically or in a different shape. That is not even mentioned in the NT Bible nor did I mention that. I said, and I say again what you try so hard to avoid hearing, and that is that Jesus existed as the word of God. God's word existed as long as God did. His word is eternal and uncreated.

    He didn't existed prior to His virgin birth physically as the son of man... NO, or in another form. God always was with His eternal and uncreated word and His eternal and uncreated word was always with Him as one. That is why Jesus said, "I and my father are one." My God was never dumb; there was never a time He was without His word. Jesus is the life of God's word in physical form. There is only one God; He is not like man that he can only be in one place at one time or limited as Islam would have us believe to being one as Muhammad understood oneness to be. God is not limited to your or my concept of oneness either.

    He is one and there is no one like Him. Jesus is the fulfillment of all the law and the prophets and only through Him can you be complete. You are so slow to hear because you are filtering all I say through you preconceived ideas influenced by Islam. Islam doesn't have the same God and Jesus of the Bible plain and simple; so you have made a choice to stick with who calls himself the best of deceivers and I choose to stick with who calls Himself the light of the world. That is the universal light that has come into the world so we don't have to walk in darkness.

    You say "Jesus' glory (not Jesus himself) preexisting with God is an issue already dealt with..." Maybe that is because you only think you have dealt with the issue. Your responses along with others were based on misconceptions of Christianity and what I've said and what I am saying; there are no "mantras" in the truth you've heard. I haven't complained that no one responds, that is another misconception of yours. I just gave you the reason why no one responds and that was because they cannot gainsay! What you consider to have been dealt with has been debunked by me.

    peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 23rd January 2014 at 19:13.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BL
    I understood you perfectly. Does the Quran say that Allah said Jesus is a word from him (Allah/God)? If you answer yes, then that word was made flesh though the miracle birth of Jesus, right?
    I don't think you understood or you wouldn't be asking this question. Not sure where you are going with this, Adam is also manifestation of the word of God not just Jesus among other things. If you think if this makes Jesus god then by that logic Adam is also god among other things including the Universe(s).

    I repeat: Jesus is not the only manifestation of word of God, and it doesn't make them God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    I don't think you understood or you wouldn't be asking this question. Not sure where you are going with this, Adam is also manifestation of the word of God not just Jesus among other things. If you think if this makes Jesus god then by that logic Adam is also god among other things including the Universe(s).

    I repeat: Jesus is not the only manifestation of word of God, and it doesn't make them God.
    You are not understanding Adam is a manifestation or God's word who was Jesus in His preexistent state as the word of God. Jesus as the son of man is not just a manifestation of God's word, but He is God's actual word incarnate. Incarnate means God's word was made flesh or a person or a man! Jesus is the last Adam! This was not the case for the first Adam who introduced sin into the world. Jesus brings us righteousness but only if you are hid in Christ! No one else will be made right on their own without Christ! You cannot understand this message until God draws you to Christ. I'll pray for you.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  15. #30
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
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    Burninglight,

    You're still at the same spot, stuck in the mud. Prior to his physical existence on earth, JEsus supposedly preexisted in a different shape or what you call "the word", this conflicts with Mal3:6"I the Lord do not change".

    As to "No one else will be made right on their own without Christ", why are John's parents upright in God's sight, observing all commandements blamelessly Lk1:6 and why did Yahweh give a set a of laws within anyone's reach as a means for salvation Deut30:10-14?
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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