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Thread: information sought from Christian friends

  1. #61
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    Default Re: information sought from Christian friends

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    False prophets will perform real and true miracles according to both the OT and NT as a matter of test. Paul himself admits it in 2Thess2:9-10. Where does it say there are real and false miracles or that real miracles only come from God? The Bible does not give any specific instructions on how to recognize demonic miracles. But it shows how to recognize if the author is a false messenger. .
    Lets look at 2Thess 2 in context: 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. This contrary to what you said doesn't say false prophets perform real miracles, but it states what has been told to you already; namely, they perform false signs and wonders. You are right it does tell how to recognize false messengers. Those who deny Jesus is the son of God are one of the signs
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    And Allah is the name of God used by Christians and Jews of Arabia even prior to Islam. As to your invalidation of Muhammad's prophethood because of him not coming from the line of Isaac, well unfortunately for you and as already properly explained there http://forums.understanding-islam.co...l=1#post184505 where you even admitted that "Okay, you have convince me this is true" yet you backflip and regurgitate an old falsehood, Judaism itself recognizes the prophethood of non-Israelites and even cites some of them in the Hebrew bible that addressed the Jews. .
    I admitted that Allah is the term that Arab Christians used for God, but the Christians Allah and the Muslim one are not one in the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Without going into the issue of "no prior Scripture speaks of his coming, and he usurps the Scriptures that came before", where does the Bible mention these 2 criteria as fitting a false prophet? This would immidiately invalidate Jesus' prophethood by the way who was neither mentionned in the OT and who "usurped" the scripture that "came before"..
    Jesus was spoken of throughout the OT. For starters read Isaiah 53 carefully. As for false prophets the Bible speaks of those who would deny Jesus as the son of God.
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    As to 1 Corinthians 7, it says exactly what i told you it says. It explains that those who engage in marriage and sexual intimacy are those that lack the discipline to adhere to the higher standards of their faith Rom7:18,1Cor7:32-35. In 1Cor7 Paul clearly speaks of celibacy as the embodiement of piety and only those that cannot bear it may marry, thus making a concession to the flesh .
    That is your erroneous interpretation of that Scripture. He just felt that would be easier to just focus on ministry if you didn't have to deal with family. And that is true, but it wasn't for everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    But to burn "the passion" would also mean sacrificing religious discipline, submitting to the flesh, which is why many prefer remain unmarried for the sake of not compromising their spirituality, though they cannot bear it, thus leading to secret sexual abuses .
    That is not what this means. He just saying if it is not for you to be celibate, marry and don't burn in passion for sex that could lead to sin. It has nothing to do with a higher spiritual level or calling to be celibate. Sex is great in its place.

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    This mentality is largely based on Stoicism, the dominant helenic philosophy at the time Christianity was being shaped and formed. The flesh is the enemy of the Spirit and should be mortified Rom8:6-13"To be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life ... The carnal mind is enmity against God ... They that are in the flesh cannot please God ... If you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live".
    The embodiment of piety is thus reflected in the priest who doesnt marry and chooses celibacy as god-liness, turning away from the temptation of the flesh through which "original sin" was transmitted to humanity and could still pollute the spirit when practiced, according to the early church fathers..
    This has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity. You are confusing pagan Catholicism with true Christianity. What you say is true, but your context is weak.
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Besides obsession with chastity early Christians' rigid ascetism included the rejection of other "earthly" pleasures such as adequate food and drink, comfortable shelter and clothing, the pleasures of a social existence. Though its own hierarchs rarely observed the practice, subjugation of desire, renunciation of pleasure, chastity, self-inflicted agonies, isolation and every other form of deprivation was lauded by the Church as an achievement of holiness and "spirituality". Cleanliness and hygiene were themselves suspect, believed to hide an unlcean mind. They identified their internal struggle of desiring the joys of this world with Jesus' suffering:

    These ideas did not derive from any of Jesus' words in the NT, rather by those that followed in the footsteps of messianic Jews like the Essens, the stoics and Gnostic hellenism, inspiring themselves from those philosophies and taking them to new extremes. As Jesus' promised return and impending apocalypse did not materialize, the first century Christians that rejected the world and the flesh in eager anticipation, had to adjust their doctrines for the "long haul", such as by restraining celibacy (not sexual continence but merely celibacy – a state of being unwed, the church was accomodating to priests who had concubines. Priests were at liberty to live as libertines, far beyond the excesses of the pagans. A priest could acquire a concubine – or several – without censure and there could arise no claims from wives or offspring to lands and property owned or coveted by the church) to Church cadres who would symbolize piety, and tolerating marriage of the masses solely for the purpose of procreation. This doctrine of abstinence gave to early Christianity devoted Church cadres and a considerable advantage over the pagan cults with whom it was competing, and whose part-time priests for the most part had families and took an active role in the business and pleasures of secular society. Celibacy also ensured that Church property would never be threatened by inheritence claims. This was particulary the most important point to the 4th century church as it was busy amassing and draining all of the empire's wealth. Up to 315, priest marriages werent actually objected to by the church but it quickly became a crucial matter in order to safeguard its riches..
    This wasn't Jesus message is right, but it wasn't Paul's either. This is according to the pagan Catholic Church. As far as I can tell, I don't see much difference from the Catholics and Muslims in the way of legalism that has nothing to do with God.
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Im still waiting for the translation of makr in "And they makaru a makran, and We makarna a makran while they perceived not".
    As to Allah making things appear in a certain way thus resulting in the birth of Christianity, this was also explained to you, namely the fact that Jesus was saved contrary to the Jews' boasting to have killed him yet they had no dead body to present and prove their claims, and the Christians are alone responsible for following a conjecture reported by unknown and unreliable sources (all the disciples who are allegedly reporting the events surrounding Jesus' end on earth are all reported to have fled at the time according to the NT itself)..
    Allah making something appear to be true that wasn't is all the prove I need to show me that deception was at work.
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    What money did he gain being "a respected religious leader" (which he wasnt, but that is another discussion)? He not only could gather much more by spreading his precepts and reforms of Christianity to the gentiles (against JEsus' teachings) but he also did all that under the watchful eye of Rome that many times dispatched whole armies to his rescue as depicted in Acts.
    He was a respected leader and step down from that position to suffer beatings for his profession of faith in Jesus
    Last edited by Burninglight; 15th February 2014 at 01:12.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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