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Thread: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Put aside the NT and its contradictory account of the crucifixion and resurrection which you're obviously unable to reconcile and are now trrying to "lol" your way out of. Please show a single external historical source confirming those 2 incidents and dramatic events as reported in the NT, that couldnt have been missed by any writer of the time.
    You have not proved a contradiction in the account of the crucifixion and resurrection. Every version of the Bible states it happened. Just because there is timing differences that I might not understand now doesn't mean it didn't happen.
    If there was a car accident pileup that kills 12 people would you say it didn't happen because the witnesses give a different time of day that it happened? Just answer the question with a yea or na. If you want an eternal source, I will have to research it, but here is some of what I have found. Have you?
    Many modern scholars consider the baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion to be two historically certain facts about him.[4][18] James Dunn states that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent" and "rank so high on the 'almost impossible to doubt or deny' scale of historical facts" that they are often the starting points for the study of the historical Jesus.[4] Bart Ehrman states that the crucifixion of Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate is the most certain element about him.[19] John Dominic Crossan states that the crucifixion of Jesus is as certain as any historical fact can be.[20] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that there is non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[21]

    Craig Blomberg states that most scholars in the third quest for the historical Jesus consider the crucifixion indisputable.[5] But, while scholars agree on the historicity of the crucifixion, they differ on the reason and context for it, e.g., both E. P. Sanders and Paula Fredriksen support the historicity of the crucifixion, but contend that Jesus did not foretell his own crucifixion, and that his prediction of the crucifixion is a Christian story.[22] Christopher M. Tuckett states that, although the exact reasons for the death of Jesus are hard to determine, one of the indisputable facts about him is that he was crucified.[23] Geza Vermes also views the crucifixion as a historical event but provides his own explanation and background for it.[22]

    John P. Meier views the crucifixion of Jesus as historical fact and states that based on the criterion of embarrassment Christians would not have invented the painful death of their leader.[24] Meier states that a number of other criteria, e.g., the criterion of multiple attestation (i.e., confirmation by more than one source), the criterion of coherence (i.e., that it fits with other historical elements) and the criterion of rejection (i.e., that it is not disputed by ancient sources) help establish the crucifixion of Jesus as a historical event.[25]

    Although almost all ancient sources relating to crucifixion are literary, the 1968 archeological discovery just northeast of Jerusalem of the body of a crucified man dated to the 1st century provided good confirmatory evidence of the gospel accounts of crucifixion .[26] The crucified man was identified as Yohan Ben Ha'galgol and probably died about 70 AD, around the time of the Jewish revolt against Rome. The analyses at the Hadassah Medical School estimated that he died in his late 20s. These studies also showed that the man had been crucified in a manner resembling the Gospel accounts. Another relevant archaeological find, which also dates to the 1st century AD, is an unidentified heel bone with a spike discovered in a Jerusalem gravesite, now held by the Israel Antiquities Authority and displayed in the Israel Museum.[27][28]

    Gospel narratives[edit]

    The earliest detailed accounts of the death of Jesus are contained in the four canonical gospels.[29] There are other more implicit references in the New Testament epistles. In the synoptic gospels, Jesus predicts his death in three separate episodes.[30]





    Bronzino's depiction of the Crucifixion with 3 nails, no ropes, and a hypopodium standing support, c. 1545.
    According to all four gospels, Jesus was brought to the "Place of a Skull"[31] and crucified with two thieves,[32] with the charge of claiming to be "King of the Jews",[33] and the soldiers divided his clothes[34] before he bowed his head and died.[35] Following his death, Joseph of Arimathea requested the body from Pilate,[36] which Joseph then placed in a new garden tomb.[37]

    The three Synoptic gospels also describe Simon of Cyrene bearing the cross,[38] the multitude mocking Jesus[39] along with the thieves/robbers/rebels,[40] darkness from the 6th to the 9th hour,[41] and the temple veil being torn from top to bottom.[42] The Synoptics also mention several witnesses, including a centurion,[43] and several women who watched from a distance[44] two of whom were present during the burial.[45]

    Luke is the only gospel writer to omit the detail of sour wine mix that was offered to Jesus on a reed,[46] while only Mark and John describe Joseph actually taking the body down off the cross.[47]

    There are several details that are only found in one of the gospel accounts. For instance, only Matthew's gospel mentions an earthquake, resurrected saints who went to the city and that Roman soldiers were assigned to guard the tomb,[48] while Mark is the only one to state the actual time of the crucifixion (the third hour, or 9 am) and the centurion's report of Jesus' death.[49] The Gospel of Luke's unique contributions to the narrative include Jesus' words to the women who were mourning, one criminal's rebuke of the other, the reaction of the multitudes who left "beating their breasts", and the women preparing spices and ointments before resting on the Sabbath.[50] John is also the only one to refer to the request that the legs be broken and the soldier's subsequent piercing of Jesus' side (as fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy), as well as that Nicodemus assisted Joseph with burial.[51]

    According to canonical Gospels, Jesus rose from the dead after three days and appeared to his Disciples on different occasions during a forty-day period before ascending to heaven.[52] The account given in Acts of the Apostles, which says Jesus remained with the apostles for forty days, appears to differ from the account in the Gospel of Luke, which makes no clear distinction between the events of Easter Sunday and the Ascension.[53][54] However, most biblical scholars agree that St. Luke also wrote the Acts of the Apostles as a follow-up volume to his Gospel account, and the two works must be considered as a whole.[55]

    In Mark, Jesus is crucified along with two rebels, and the day goes dark for three hours.[56] Jesus calls out to God, then gives a shout and dies.[56] The curtain of the Temple is torn in two.[56] Matthew follows Mark, adding an earthquake and the resurrection of saints.[57] Luke also follows Mark, though he describes the rebels as common criminals, one of whom defends Jesus, who in turn promises that he (Jesus) and the criminal will be together in paradise.[58] Luke portrays Jesus as impassive in the face of his crucifixion.[59] John includes several of the same elements as those found in Mark, though they are treated differently.[60]

    Other accounts and references[edit]

    See also: Josephus on Jesus and Tacitus on Christ

    An early non-Christian reference to the crucifixion of Jesus is likely to be Mara Bar-Serapion's letter to his son, written sometime after AD 73 but before the 3rd century AD.[61][62][63] The letter includes no Christian themes and the author is presumed to be a pagan.[61][62][64] The letter refers to the retributions that followed the unjust treatment of three wise men: Socrates, Pythagoras, and "the wise king" of the Jews.[61][63] Some scholars see little doubt that the reference to the execution of the "king of the Jews" is about the crucifixion of Jesus, while others place less value in the letter, given the possible ambiguity in the reference.[64][65]

    In the Antiquities of the Jews (written about 93 AD) Jewish historian Josephus, stated (Ant 18.3) that Jesus was crucified by Pilate, writing that:[66]


    Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, ... He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles ... And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross ...

    Most modern scholars agree that while this Josephus passage (called the Testimonium Flavianum) includes some later interpolations, it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate.[67][68][69] It is notable that Josephus and other historians didn't live during Jesus' lifetime. James Dunn states that there is "broad consensus" among scholars regarding the nature of an authentic reference to the crucifixion of Jesus in the Testimonium.[70]

    Early in the second century another reference to the crucifixion of Jesus was made by Tacitus, generally considered one of the greatest Roman historians.[71][72] Writing in The Annals (c. 116 AD), Tacitus described the persecution of Christians by Nero and stated (Annals 15.44) that Pilate ordered the execution of Jesus:[66][73]


    Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus.

    Scholars generally consider the Tacitus reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate to be genuine, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[71][74][75][76][77][78] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[21]

    Another possible reference to the crucifixion ("hanging" cf. Luke 23:39; Galatians 3:13) is found in the Babylonian Talmud:


    On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!

    —Sanhedrin 43a, Babylonian Talmud (Soncino Edition)

    Although the question of the equivalence of the identities of Yeshu and Jesus has at times been debated, many historians agree that the above passage is likely to be about Jesus, Peter Schäfer stating that there can be no doubt that this narrative of the execution in the Talmud refers to Jesus of Nazareth.[79] Robert Van Voorst states that the Sanhedrin 43a reference to Jesus can be confirmed not only from the reference itself, but from the context that surrounds it.[80]

    In opposition to the vast majority of Biblical and mainstream scholarship, Muslims maintain that Jesus was not crucified and that he was not killed by any other means.[81] They hold this belief based on various interpretations of Quran 4:157–158 which states: "they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them [or it appeared so unto them], ... Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself".[81]

    Some early Christian Gnostic sects, believing Jesus did not have a physical substance, denied that he was crucified.[82][83] In response, Ignatius of Antioch insisted that Jesus was truly born and was truly crucified and wrote that those who held that Jesus only seemed to suffer only seemed to be Christians.[84][85]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus
    Last edited by Burninglight; 16th January 2014 at 03:49.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Scholars generally consider the Tacitus reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate to be genuine, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[71][74][75][76][77][78] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[21]

    Another possible reference to the crucifixion ("hanging" cf. Luke 23:39; Galatians 3:13) is found in the Babylonian Talmud:


    On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  3. #18
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Sure every bible book and version states Jesus was crucified and resurrected. It is upon these 2 notions that all of post-Jesus Christianity stands or falls. The issue is how reliable and authentic these accounts are? On both counts, they land very mediocre scores because the discrepencies surrounding those events arent insignificant but loaded with theological consequences, as already shown.

    Now to your supposed sources. Firstly, keep in mind that no contemporary writing or immidiately following Jesus' time mention a thing about the extraordinary events surrounding his life or alleged crucifixion. Yet we have proof that Bar Kochba (another messianic claimant who came just a few years after Jesus) has archeological and historical proof of his existance.

    The Tacitus passage you quoted from instance (Tacitus was born a good 20 years after Jesus' death and started writing some 60 years later, meaning he wasnt a historical witness and only relied on hearsay if we were to accept the passage attributed to him as athentic) talking of the persecutions of early Christians, mentions how the founder of this religion "was Christus, who, in the reign of Tiberius, was punished, as a criminal by the procurator, Pontius Pilate". Besides the fact that Pilate wasnt procurator but prefect which further shows how this passage if genuenly writen by Tacitus certainly wasnt based on detailed historical research, but again, none of the Church fathers nor any Christian writer prior to the 15th century mention it, despite their familiarity with Tacitus' works and their need for such weighty evidence by a renouned historian. Not even Eusebius who in the 4th century cites all sources available from Jewish and pagan sources. In fact it is well known that Tacitus' writing dates to about 112 CE meaning 70+ years after Jesus supposed death, so definitely not proof of anything even if the quote was from Tacitus himself but even this is disputed due to the fact there is only 1 surviving copy of this writing, supposedly "copied" in the 8th century CE (700 years after it was supposedly written) by Christian hands who wrote history, meaning it was most probably another forgery.

    There exist no Roman records of Jesus' execution by Pontius Pilate and here we have the most renouned of Roman historians citing the alleged event, and yet he is ignored by Christian apologists up to the 15th century.

    In fact the reference to Jesus is absent from a 5th century Christian writer Sulpicius Severus who quotes the passage attributed to Tacitus in nearly the same words.

    Concerning the Greek satirist Lucian of Samosata (125-180 CE), his statements concerning Jesus (an assumption since he never names Jesus, keeping in mind that many were crucified in Jesus' time) were written near the end of the 2nd century, meaning he had no independent sources and relied upon Christian sources, common knowledge etc in fact Lucian does not even specify his sources.

    Sulpicius Severus wrote in the 5th century about alleged Christian persecution under Emperor Nero yet no historian or any Christian writer ever confirmed this, including Josephus who did not fail describing and denouncing Nero's abuse of power.

    Another funny forgery is The Lentulus Letter, attributed to a fictitious predecessor to Pontius Pilate, governor of Judaea, called "Publius Lentulus". The letter is addressed to the Roman Senate, reporting Christ's "raising of the dead", describes him as "the most beautiful of the sons of men."

    In a desperat bid, some Christians use a passage by Suetonius who wrote a biography called Twelve Caesars around the year 112 AD, where he mentions the political agitations of a "Chrestus" in Rome in 54 AD, which of course couldnt be Jesus. Also, 'Chrestus' does not equate to 'Christ' in English but to 'the good' in Greek. It was a name used by both slaves and freemen. Suetonius was explaining why the Jews (not Christians) were expelled from Rome and is referring to a Jewish agitator in the 50s.

    As to the few forged lines from Josephus, look closely how they are awkwardly inserted in between 2 flowing sections of his voluminous works that has pages and chapters devoted to petty personalities such as robbers or simple kings, yet this devout and zealous orthodox Jew, and who remained so until his death, ie the last person to accept Jesus as a god or as the Jewish King-messiah is said to have given a short comment in the middle of an acount about another character (Pilate) about how Jesus was indeed the wonderful, divine, and prophecied Jewish King-Messiah. Just a short passage about his long awaited Jewish King and yet he reports in much more details about John the Baptist and other self-proclaimed messiahs like Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, the "Egyptian Jew" messiah? The absurdity forces some apologists to make the ridiculous claim that Josephus was a closet Christian.

    There is a reason why none of the early Church fathers up to the 3rd century never quoted this most-appropriate passage in their controversies with the Jews and other works despite their familiarity with Josephus' writings; it is a late forgery. For example Origen the Church Father who spent most of his life contending with the pagan writer Celsus, and using Josephus' works failed to mention this "ultimate rebuttal". Origen even condemns Josephus for not having accepted Jesus as the messiah in his writings. It isnt until Eusebius the official propagandist for Emperor Constantine, who judged that "it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived", the Church father notorious for his deception and distortions of evidence to advance the cause of the church, described by St Jerome himself who thought of him as well as other Church Fathers such as Origen as sometimes "compelled to say not what they think but what is useful", that we see a mention of the passage. The first ever mention of the passage unsurprisingly comes at a time where Christianity monopolised what should be the truth, torching whole libraries, yet keeping Josephus' histories which they needed to advance their cause, turning the leading Jewish historian of his day into a witness for Jesus Christ.

    In fact the Latin version of Josephus' work translated by Jerome is very similar to the quote Eusebius attributes to Josephus, except of course for the crucial parts about Jesus. Even later Christian apologists and open deciever such as Chrysostom who judged that "often it is necessary to deceive", and Photius both rejected this passage in their works yet they needed evidence such as this in their writings. Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defenses against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words. Because of the overwhelming evidence against its authenticity, Christian apologists try turning to another much briefer reference in "Book 20" Yet Josephus's second reference falls both because it is dependent upon the earlier (false) reference for explanation – and because it actually refers to "Jesus, the son of Damneus" who was made "high priest by king Agrippa".

    Finally as to the Talmud misquote and many other lies attributed to that text by Christians, go there:
    http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesusnarr.html
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

  4. #19
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Just to add some further information reflecting the deafening silence of external sources that fail to confirm the amazing events surrounding that alleged crucifixion and resurrection.

    It is firstly interesting to note that the death and birth of great personalities was meant to be accompanied by great signs, in the minds of ancient people. The gospel writers were no exception. However the over dramatization surrounding Jesus' death found in Matt27:45-52, which clearly was an effort by that unknown writer to connect Jesus to the prophecies of Zech14, isnt reported in other Gospels let alone contemporary historical writings, with the eclipse, earthquake and deads coming back to life to be seen by many (where did they all go by the way, did they just keep wandering around for some time like zombies in the streets of Jerusalem?), besides other spectacular events such as Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, his witnessed ascencion to heaven and other various wonderful displays allegedly seen by many. None of all this is reported in history including the works of Josephus or Philo who lived very close to the time and at the place where all these things supposedly happenned and wrote profusely about every noted personage of Palestine, describing every important event which occurred there during the first seventy years of the Christian era, even Galilee natives historians such as Tiberias who wrote detailed accounts of the period and of the Jews covering the entire time Jesus existed.

    Same deafening silence regarding other contemporaries of Jesus such as the Roman aristocrat and prodigious writer Seneca, and Pliny the Elder or other historians of the time who failed to mention these amazing events yet their works covered vast subjects relevant to their period. Seneca's silence was such an embarrasement even to early Christians that in the late 4th century forgeries were made in the shape of an exchange of letters between him and none other than the apostle Paul.

    Romans were renouned record keepers and they recorded earthquakes which they called prodigies yet the only ones spoken about around Jesus' era happenned in 37 BCE (too early) and again in 110 CE (too late).
    Partly for this reason, even many biblical scholars doubt that these cataclysms surrounding the alleged crucifixion really happened.

    Even Peter who was giving his speech in Acts 2 only 50 days after the alleged event along with Paul who in 1Cor15 was trying to convince the people on Jesus' resurection never mentionned this extraordinary event to strengthen their arguments in front of an audience that badly needed it. Same thing for Paul who instead of appealing to all the miracles witnessed by the multitudes, the supernatural events seen by many and the resurrected bodies walking around Jerusalem among other things testifying to the truthfulness of Jesus' claims, simply claims innocence of the religious charges against him based on scriptures when questionned at the Sanhedrin, by the Roman Governor Festus or by the king Herod Agrippa. Not only does Paul omit the strange happening surrounding Jesus' death but he also doesnt even speak of the crucifixion, nor of the resurrection which could have easily been attested by the 500 who saw the resurrected Jesus, many of whom, supposedly still alive. Nor does he request the testimony of any of the apostles, still actively working miracles, as Paul himself amply did on his missionary trip and could therefore have easily done now.

    Although Christian apologists choose to ignore Matthew's account -for obvious reasons- when trying to prove the historicity of the crucifixion, they do try to find some basis for the alleged eclipse by refering to an obscure pagan personality of whom next to nothing is known about; Thallus. He is mentionned in a 9th century work that relies on a 3rd century Christian writer called Julius Africanus who himself paraphrases -not quotes- Thallus about a solar eclipse none knows when and where it happenned exactly and neither does Thallus link it to Jesus. As a side note the only recorded eclipse closest to Jesus' location and time of death occured in the year 29 in the Persian Gulf which doesnt fit the Jesus chronology and would have been of negligible impact in Jerusalem, 100s of miles away.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    If Jesus didn't rise from the dead there would be no Christianity. If you can prove no Resurrection, I would turn away from Christianity. It all comes down to what one wants to believe.

    You have to provided motive as to why anyone would want to fabricate the death and resurrection of Jesus at the expense of their lives.

    I can see clearly why Muslims would have us believe it didn't happen, but I cannot understand why all the apostles and the apostle Paul would preach Jesus crucified if it didn't happen. More importantly, why Jesus predicted His death and resurrection, if he knew it wouldn't happen?

    Your reasoning fails logic as well as the Scriptures that came before!
    Last edited by Burninglight; 17th January 2014 at 03:20.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Is there historical evidence of the crucifixion?

    Is there historical evidence of the crucifixion? The crucifixion of Jesus Christ did not take place in obscurity. The writers of the four gospels were actual figures in history that wrote, from various perspectives, about the life, ministry, and death of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Their writings depicted eyewitness accounts of documented happenings in history. The variety of theories as to the events following the crucifixion and to what happened to the body of Jesus, only serves to further establish the fact of this heinous death. Such well-known legends as the swoon theory, that Jesus only passed out on the cross and was later resuscitated by the cool air of the tomb, and the case of the stolen body are strewn throughout literature chronicling the events of that time. The fact is, the death of Jesus Christ was never disputed. The Jews, both those who hated him and those who would become His future followers, witnessed His death. It was a public event that took place in front of the whole world. John 12:32-33 says, "'But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.' He said this to show the kind of death He was going to die." Joseph of Arimethea, himself a notable figure of the Jews of that day, requested the body of Jesus in order to give Him an honorable burial.

    As to the validity of the mode of execution, it was established that by the first century, crucifixion was the Roman method for certain non-Roman criminals. It was initially employed as a form of punishment causing extreme pain and humiliation, so much so that the word "excruciating" was created for the express purpose of describing the unfathomable horror of the individual's suffering on a cross. Excruciating literally means, "out of the cross." How wonderfully this fit into the plan and will of God: "If a man guilty of a capital offense is put to death and his body is hung on a tree, you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse. . ." (Deuteronomy 21:22-23).

    The massacre and shame that the Savior endured as one accursed was suffered for our benefit. He who never sinned suffered on our behalf, for our sins worthy of death; we were the accursed. The severity of the punishment was a stark reflection of God's holiness and His hatred of sin. While we as humans justify ourselves and compare ourselves to others who may not be as "good" as we are, God has indicated that the slightest infraction is an affront to His holiness.

    1 John 5:17 says, "All wrongdoing is sin. . ." What a terrible weight Jesus carried, the load of our sins that so disfigured Him, that even the Father turned away? Matthew 27:46 "About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?' - which means, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"

    Perhaps the greatest evidence of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is the eternal results in the lives of those who have accepted Him. Those who have believed in what happened on Golgotha have been given the right to be called sons of God, and may now cry "Abba, Father." We can now have fellowship with the living God.

    Jesus Christ was not the first or last person to be crucified. He was the only one, however, to be resurrected, and that from such a horrible death. He bore in His resurrection body, forever, the scars of His crucifixion in His hands and feet and side. We are told in God's Word that this will ever be a witness, for as the prophet foretold, "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son" (Zechariah 12:10).
    http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/h...fixion-faq.htm

    - See more at: http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/h....U5yoytT0.dpuf
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Read Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53
    read the prophecies that were a thousand years before predicting the type of death Christ would suffer. And other prophecies that speaks of the type of death 100s of years before the Romans came up with that style of execution

    HISTORICAL REFERENCES AS EVIDENCE as well

    Evidence from the JEWISH SOURCES:

    Talmud, b. Sanhedrin 43a: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged [or crucified]. ... Since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.

    The Amoa "Ulla" (Ulla was a disciple of Youchanan and lived in Palestine at the end of the third century) adds: "And do you suppose that for (Yeshu of Nazareth - Jesus) there was any right of appeal? He was a beguiler, and the Merciful One hath said: "Thou shalt not spare neither shalt thou conceal him." It is otherwise with Yeshu, for He was near to the civil authority.

    Note here that the writers of the Talmud took their job seriously. These men were Jews who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. They were not Christians, but they documented Christ's crucifixion.

    EVIDENCE FROM ROMAN SOURCES you say didn't exist:
    Cornelius Tacitus in his Annals, xv. 44: Christus ... was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontious Pilate.
    Lucian of Samosata: (Christ was) the man who was crucified in Palestine

    Note here that these men were professional historians. They researched their work before publishing it. They also documented Christ's crucifixion.

    Therefore, three types of witness all of whom are from the 1st or early 2nd century have been presented.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 17th January 2014 at 04:31.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  8. #23
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    The Roman and talmudic sources were all shown to be completely unreliable or irrelevant in attempting to prove from external documents that a man named Jesus was once crucified and resurrected.

    As to the NT's alleged Jewish witnesses to the events, well its obvious why the writers needed these external charachters since per the gospels themselves, all of Jesus' disciples (ie those who are supposedly reporting the incidents) fled the scene. The passage of Acts13:27-29, which is attributed to Paul, shows that the disciples included among those guilty for the execution anyone who took part in the recovery of Jesus' body. Thus, Paul emphasizes that Jesus was buried not by his followers but by his enemies yet Jn19:38, which was written after Acts, speaks of 2 elements among those who burried Jesus -Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus- as being secret followers of his. This obvious manipulation with the burial party being turned from hostile to favorable and positive is an effort to first of all circumvent the difficulty of having Jesus' body dumped in an unmarked pit as would have been done by his executioners, and second find reliable witnesses to the event, who would have faithfully transmitted their testimony to their brothers in faith and Gospel writers without being noticed. How strange is it that Joseph of "Arimathaea" (a mysterious and unknown "city of the Jews" Lk23:51) was a Jesus disciple Matt27 yet he is unheard of until the very end where a convenient hybrid, close enough to the Jewish elite to avoid suspicion and a closet Christian, an "honourable member of the Jewish council, also waiting for the kingdom of God" was needed to rescue Jesus' body. Thats not to speak of another similar character only found in John3, called Nicodemus, a "ruler of the Jews" who was allegedly attracted to Jesus because of his miracles yet besides the "water to wine" one, Jesus' hadnt yet performed any miracle, did not begin his ministry, even though Jn2:24 states many miracles were performed only to later claim that a healing he performed in Capernaum was only his second miracle Jn4:54. Did really the turning of water to wine convince this Jewish ruler that "no man can do these miracles..except God be with him"?

    Psalms 22 is about David, not Jesus and the Christian translation that reads "They pierced my hands and feet" is based on the Greek Septuagint, whose error is repeated by the Vulgate and the Syriac.

    Isaiah53 is easily shown to be refering to Israel as a whole, not JEsus. For example, contrary to the subject of the prophecy, Jesus did not have a long life to the point he could see his children, he did not have children, did not die with the wealthy, was not buried with the wicked.

    As to Zechariah 12, how was Jerusalem protected from the siege and its enemies destroyed by God anywhere near Jesus' time? The contrary happenned, it was sacked, its inhabitants enslaved and exiled and the temple reduced to rubble
    Last edited by naderM; 17th January 2014 at 12:59.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    The Roman and talmudic sources were all shown to be completely unreliable or irrelevant in attempting to prove from external documents that a man named Jesus was once crucified and resurrected..
    This is your opinion. You are entitled to that, but it is not something your can prove. Many Scholars would disagree with this statement of yours. You have to say this to validate the Quran. So I can see your motive, but you have not given motive as to why anyone would fake the death of Christ and His resurrection. What did they have to gain, and why did it take God 700 years to set the record straight and even longer with Joseph Smith who receive revelation in a similar manner to Muhammad?
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Psalms 22 is about David, not Jesus and the Christian translation that reads "They pierced my hands and feet" is based on the Greek Septuagint, whose error is repeated by the Vulgate and the Syriac..
    It was David giving a prophecy. David was a prophet, and Jesus comes out of His line. God is referring to David when He said, "I will raise up my servant David in the last days, and you shall consider it." Jesus is the fulfillment of that. He is the David of the last days. The last days began with Jesus and will end with Him. He is also the last Adam!

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Isaiah53 is easily shown to be refering to Israel as a whole, not JEsus. For example, contrary to the subject of the prophecy, Jesus did not have a long life to the point he could see his children, he did not have children, did not die with the wealthy, was not buried with the wicked.
    Jesus is the culmination of all Israel; it is a prophecy about Jesus. So you are having to go against the external historical evidence of Jesus death and resurrection and the OT prophecies about Jesus and the NT predictions of Jesus Himself regarding His death just to stay true to something that will not stay true to you in the end. What you adhere to will take you where you don't want to go keep you longer than you want to stay and cost you more than you want to pay. If you continue with nonsense arguments, it will land you in mud cement. IOW, your destiny will eventually be written in cement! There is still hope and time for repentance. Jesus said, "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and sup with him and he with Me."

    There is one more thing; Jesus has revealed himself to us biblical Christians in such a way that we cannot deny His spirit bore witness with ours when we invited Him in our hearts. That is how we know our eternal destiny, but Muslims like you don't know. Your god has left you in the dark up to now regarding your hereafter. What makes you think he won't keep you there in the hereafter. Even Abu Bakr said he couldn't trust the makr of Allah if he had one foot in paradise and one on earth. So, if he felt that way, I trust Allah's makr even less and enough to have nothing to do with him and get as far as east is from west from him. Look at Deedat's fate after he faithfully served Allah! He said things like truth smashes the brains of liars. He said that before he entered into debates with those who love the appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. When I look at his demise, I fear my God more>
    Last edited by Burninglight; 17th January 2014 at 13:27.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    It isnt an issue of opinion. The sources you presented do not support the theory that a man named Jesus was crucified and resurrected, end of matter. The origins of the tale surrounding Jesus' death are easily explanable.

    Firstly, there is an ever changing rule concerning the prevailing of messengers per the Quran, that leads God to destroy or forcefully subjugate that nation and preserve the messenger and the believers if men keep rejecting despite the clear warnings of destruction. The Messenger, along with those that are with the Messenger are saved, and those that are not perish. Among these messengers are Nuh, Hud, Ibrahim, Salih, Shuayb, Musa, Jesus and Muhammad.

    In 4:157-8 the Quran unequivocally declares, in line with that divine rule, that contrary to the Jews' claims, Jesus was not crucified NOR KILLED. The verses clearly dismiss whatever way the disbelievers attempted at Jesus' life, including their desire to crucify him as was common in those days, and they did attempt many ways 5:110 but Jesus, the messenger sent with an undeniable manifestation of the Truth was protected by Allah just like others before him such as Ibrahim were preserved from any harm and humiliation when seized by their opponents.

    Per the verses, it appeared to Jesus' enemies that he was killed, and it was so because, among other reasons, Jesus was missing. He was missing because as the Quran says God "tawaffa" him, purified him and made him ascend to Heaven which prevented the humiliation that could happen if his enemies got to the body. If they presented it to the people in a humiliated state, leading to a psychological victory for the Israelites 4:158"Allah took him up to Himself". The verse is responding to the allegation that the Jews either killed Jesus or humiliated him, by hanging him on the cross. They couldnt even kill him, nor could they damage his body and God states He would raise him up to himself, meaning that not only his body wouldnt be humiliated but it would be honored by God instead. God lifted him up and did not leave a trace of him with them yet even without proof for their claims, they managed to start a rumor that quickly spread and was believed. A confusion similar to that of the rumor of the prophet Muhammad's death during the battle of Uhud 3:144, and easily understandable in the midst of the 100s of daily Roman crucifixions and executions of any agitators to the point that they would sometimes run out of wood for the crosses.

    This rumor they started found a favorable echo among the gentiles whom Paul was trying to lure contrary to Jesus' directives to preach only to the Israelites, and whose belief was Mithraism. They believed the man/god Mithra was the son of God, born on the 25th of December and was visited by Persian Magi adoring him and offering gifts like Jesus in his infancy according to the NT, had 12 disciples, was identified with the lamb, was crucified, rose from the dead on the third day, atoned for the sins of mankind, and returned to heaven. This is the religion that found a favorable echo and adopted by the pagan Roman authority, who had centuries of tradition of dying gods, and ultimately institutionalized. It was in the 4th century that Pope Damasus I introduced the 25th of december as the birthday of Jesus. In a move to gain the hearts and minds of the Romans, he used the immensely popular ancient mid-winter solstice festival, which lasted for several days and culminated in the feast of 'Brumalia' on December 25th. This major celebration among pagans caused agonies for the Church, and since the early Christians had absolutely no idea of the day, month or even year of Jesus's nativity, it was a relatively easy matter to superimpose a Christian festival on the pagan one.

    4:157-158 then states that those who differ on what is stated in the verse about Jesus not having being killed are in shakkin/suspicion about that very statement. It then goes on to say why Christians entertain shakkin/suspicion about the Quranic statement that Jesus was not killed: they have formed a wrong conclusion about events that they themselves had no knowledge about and are following nothing but a conjecture, a legend that appeared after Jesus' end on earth and started by those Bani Israel contemporaries and enemies of Jesus. Some claimed to have killed him and others that they crucified him yet they had no body to prove their lies, no trace of Jesus was ever found, and this grew into a legend that was put in writing by several unknown authors whom nobody knows, who attributed their works to Jesus' close disciples yet these disciples are reported to have fled the scene at Jesus' arrest. Add to this the fact that not even a single historian exists, attesting to the wonderful and cataclysmic events surrounding the crucifiction that were allegedly witnessed by an entire city. The NT itself testifies to the fact that his close circle, let alone the rest of his followers never approached the dead body and could not therefore burry it.

    As to the gap without messengers between Jesus and Muhammad that left people in error, well firstly, God always grants respite to the people and allows them to choose their own path after receiving guidance. This is an ongoing process since the line of prophethood was initiated, so the argument of 600 years gap between Jesus and Muhammad is misplaced. According to the judeo-christian belief for example, Malachi was the last of the minor prophets and 400 years later Jesus was sent to the Israelites in order to clear the falsehood of the Israelite elite 5:19"O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you explaining to you after a cessation of the (mission of the) messengers, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a warner, so indeed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner; and Allah has power over all things".

    Also, many prophets were sent to Israel to warn them of their disobedience but many were killed or rejected as Jesus amply says in the NT. God surely was doing his job by sending Prophets until Muhammad to correct their lies and expose them, just like Jeremiah did in the OT. It just so happened that Israel was so degraded that the guilty and corrupt always came back into power to manipulate the truth once again, if they did not outright reject or kill these messengers. This was the case during the time of Jesus, and even Muhammad 5:62-63"And you will see many of them striving with one another to hasten in sin and exceeding the limits, and their eating of what is unlawfully acquired; certainly evil is that which they do. Why do not the learned men and the doctors of law prohibit them from their speaking of what is sinful and their eating of what is unlawfully acquired? Certainly evil is that which they work" 2:87"And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent messengers after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then a messenger came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew".


    And no, Jesus isnt coming from any "line" as per Jewish law that traces up genealogies through the biological father only. Even if he did come from David, the genealogies of the NT mention names that were cursed away from the messiah's lineage, thus discarding the claim based on descendency.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    If Jesus didn't die and rise from the dead, I am of all people the most miserable, for I too have given all to follow Him as stated in Luke 14:33!
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    . . .What could possible make you think the disciples of Jesus would die just to preach or give testimony to a tale ??????????
    So, simply because someone dies for a belief is sufficient evidence for you to accept the belief as fact You have a very, very low standard of proof. But then, so do all "true believers". And how do you deal with the fact that different people have died for beliefs that are inconsistent with each other? For example, we have Muslims blowing themselves up nearly daily because they believe they will end up in Paradise. Why would they do that if it weren't true?

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    ^ needs little correction: they are not simply dying to go to heaven, it is a reaction to what they see to fight invading forces.

    In the beginning of Palestinian-Israeli conflict there weren't suicide bombing if any. Tamil tigers which were marxist atheist become popular with the technique to blow up enemy with suicide soldier(s). Since that seemed most effect way to hurt a nation with more military technology it seemed like a better strategy to them. Although initially there was a dilemma that it is suicide attack and suicide is haram in Islam, so it was not immediately adopted. Later fighters and some scholars started to give alternative views that it is not suicide but it is going against enemy like in a war where soldiers can die. So adoption to suicide attacks was slow but gained acceptance. So not exactly paradise, actually i see it as secondary issue, because even if they didn't believe in paradise they would have still adopted it to what they see as effective resistance to invading forces that they can't fight head to head.

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Quote Originally Posted by marcello View Post
    So, simply because someone dies for a belief is sufficient evidence for you to accept the belief as fact You have a very, very low standard of proof. But then, so do all "true believers". And how do you deal with the fact that different people have died for beliefs that are inconsistent with each other? For example, we have Muslims blowing themselves up nearly daily because they believe they will end up in Paradise. Why would they do that if it weren't true?
    If you think that is my standard, then it's you who has the very low standard. Jesus has the highest one. Jesus said, "By their fruits you will know them; a good tree brings good fruit and a bad tree brings bad fruit; a bad tree cannot bear good fruit, and good tree cannot bear bad fruit"
    Muslims who blow themselves up with innocent people is "bad fruit." Those that died for Jesus preaching His death and resurrection didn't take their own lives along with innocent people. Their lives were taken from them for preaching the only truth there is!!! That is a night and day difference; it is the difference between good and evil, truth and deception, love and hate, light and darkness, Jesus and Muhammad, Islam and Christianity, the Bible and the Quran! Are you an atheist?
    Last edited by Burninglight; 29th January 2014 at 17:55.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    k let me put it this way, better example would be 'Spanish inquisitions' where muslims and jews clearly died for their beliefs rather than converting to christianity.

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