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Thread: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

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    Question Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Iysay View Post
    Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??
    Maybe you should stop listening to Deedat and Naik for a while and do your own research. I would like to hear you say something original for a change. I mean not even your title is original? We know you think that fiction is fact, but fact is fact. Jesus predicted His death and resurrection; He was true to His word
    Last edited by Burninglight; 12th January 2014 at 02:35.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Maybe you should stop listening to Deedat and Naik for a while and do your own research. I would like to hear you say something original for a change. I mean not even your title is original? We know you think that fiction is fact, but fact is fact. Jesus predicted His death and resurrection; He was true to His word
    No, that is another instance of the Gospel writers portraying Jesus as a false prophet whose predictions failed.

    Matt12:40"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth".

    Jonah 1:17,2:1,2"Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly. And said, l cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest, my voice"

    Jn19:42 states he was crucified on friday or "good friday" then all Gospels agree he was burried the same day and resurrected 3 days later on Sunday.
    Yet according to Matt28:1, the various characters found the tomb empty in the early hours of sunday morning meaning he spent a maximum of 3days and 2nights in the ground; friday afternoon (1day), friday night (1night), all of saturday (1day/1night), sunday morning (1day).
    Also, contrary to the others, Jn20:1 states Jesus had risen before the dawn of sunday meaning he was buried for maximum 2 days and 2 nights; friday afternoon (1day), friday night (1night), all of saturday (1day/1night).

    Before you start with the issue of Jewish days to try and solve the problem, the difference between a Jewish day and a regular day is the time when the day starts and ends. Jewish people considered the start and end of a day at sunset, whereas now we consider midnight to be the start and end of a day. There is no difference in the length of the day, and accepting the Jewish day would only make things worse as far as the prophecy goes. And while it is true that according to Jewish law part of the day is equivalent to a full day, in Matt12:40 Jesus promised to be buried for 3 days and 3 nights meaning his time in the earth must include either all 3 days/3 nights, or can be deficient in only parts of a day or night, **but never of a full segment of day or night**. In other words although he did not have to be burried for the entire 72hours, Jesus had at least to be burried on parts of 3days/3nights, which he failed according to all Gospels.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    There is some controversy such as you brought up, but not anywhere enough to deter me form the fact that it happened. Jesus had to die on Passover to fulfill the prophecy. Early that Thursday morning the Jewish leadership had gotten permission to crucify Him. (Matt. 27:1-26) His fate was sealed and He was hanging on the cross by 9 AM, as good as dead. His actual time of death was about 3 PM and His body was laid in the tomb sometime later, since the officials wanted it off the cross before sundown brought the Feast of Unleavened Bread, after which no work was permitted. By then Jesus had been in Sheol for several hours. Thursday was day one.

    Because in Jewish reckoning the night precedes the day, at sundown it became Friday the 15th, night one, and the special Sabbath John mentioned began (John 19:31). At sunrise it was Friday day, day two. The next sundown brought Saturday night the 16th, night two, and the regular Sabbath began. As of sunrise it was Saturday day, day three. At sundown on Saturday it became Sunday night the 17th, night three, and sometime before sunrise Jesus rose from the tomb. Three days and three nights. When the women arrived at sunrise to anoint His body, He was already gone.

    So in the week Jesus died two Sabbaths that permitted no work were observed back to back: The Feast of Unleavened Bread on Friday the 15th, and the regular weekly Sabbath on Saturday the 16th. In Matthew 28:1 we read that at dawn on the first day of the week (Sunday the 17th) the women who were close to Jesus went to the tomb. Luke 24:1 tells us they were going to anoint His body for burial. The two Sabbaths had prevented them from doing so earlier. But He wasn’t there. He had risen. Being the Sunday after Passover, at the Jewish Temple it was Feast of First Fruits. At the Empty Tomb it was Resurrection Morning.

    Some people try to equate his time of death with the burial of His body and say you can’t count Thursday as day one, because His body wasn’t laid in the tomb until sunset was upon them. But that doesn’t make sense. A person’s death always precedes his or her burial, sometimes by several days. In the Lord’s case it was several hours between the time He died the the time His body was lain in the tomb.

    The two disciples who met the Lord on the road to Emmaus on Sunday (the day the Lord’s resurrection was discovered) help us to confirm (Luke 24:13-35). At first they thought the Lord must have been a very recent visitor to the area when He asked them to explain why they were so sad. In the course of the discussion they indicated it was the third day since the crucifixion. “Since” is roughly equivalent to “after”. It being a Sunday, the previous day (Saturday) would have been the 2nd day since it happened , and Friday would have been the first day since it happened, making Thursday the day it happened.

    Others argue that this view doesn’t permit three full days and three full nights in the tomb but that’s not what the Scripture says. It simply says three days and three nights. If you move his death up to Wednesday like some teach to get three full days you violate the Passover Lamb prophecies, and the disciples on the Emmaus road would have to have said it was the fourth day since the crucifixion. So the Thursday date is the only one that will accommodate both the Passover Lamb and the three day three night prophecies.

    peace

    Work cited:

    Wednesday, July 2nd, 2003 Israel,
    Prophecy
    A Bible Study by Jack Kelley
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    All gospels agree the tomb was found emty after sunday's sunrise, except for John that states it was before dawn. So arguing that thursday's burrial of Jesus in daylight was "day one" creates another difficulty for you, it adds a 4th day to Jesus' stay in the earth.

    That is not the only discrepency between John and other gospels' narrations. For example in John, Jesus didnt die on passover, but the eve of that day. His account of the Last Supper in Jn13 does not include the rites of Passover as the drinking of wine, or eating matzo/unleavened bread and herbs as we find in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. That is due to John's author's awareness of Jewish law that the passover lamb had to be sacrificed on the afternoon on Nisan 14 (as stated previously Jewish days start and end at sunset), so that it could be eaten at night (now Nisan 15) as part of the "Passover Seder", along with the matzo Lev23:5-8. The other Gospel writers were ignorant of this and all stated the sacrifice had to occur ON the Festival of Unleavened Bread or ON the passover seder.

    So John's author knew that no "food preparation" is allowed on a festival day according to Jewish law which is why he terms the day of the crucifixion "preparation day", ie preparation for the festival of passover that starts at sunset (again, a new Jewish day starts at sunset) ie friday nisan 15. However this creates another issue, since food preparation for a festival on the next day must happen on that day's eve in Jewish law, this would mean that friday nisan 15 was not only a day of festival (passover) but also a day of preparation for the sabath the next day. 2 consecutive days where food preparation is forbidden as would be the case with a passover followed by a sabath, never occured anywhere near Jesus' time, hence even in talmudic times there is hardly any instance of a passover falling on thursday night, and that is because the Rabbis who originally constructed the calendar deemed it an unacceptable burden on the community.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    All gospels agree the tomb was found emty after sunday's sunrise, except for John that states it was before dawn. So arguing that thursday's burrial of Jesus in daylight was "day one" creates another difficulty for you, it adds a 4th day to Jesus' stay in the earth.

    That is not the only discrepency between John and other gospels' narrations. For example in John, Jesus didnt die on passover, but the eve of that day. His account of the Last Supper in Jn13 does not include the rites of Passover as the drinking of wine, or eating matzo/unleavened bread and herbs as we find in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. That is due to John's author's awareness of Jewish law that the passover lamb had to be sacrificed on the afternoon on Nisan 14 (as stated previously Jewish days start and end at sunset), so that it could be eaten at night (now Nisan 15) as part of the "Passover Seder", along with the matzo Lev23:5-8. The other Gospel writers were ignorant of this and all stated the sacrifice had to occur ON the Festival of Unleavened Bread or ON the passover seder.

    So John's author knew that no "food preparation" is allowed on a festival day according to Jewish law which is why he terms the day of the crucifixion "preparation day", ie preparation for the festival of passover that starts at sunset (again, a new Jewish day starts at sunset) ie friday nisan 15. However this creates another issue, since food preparation for a festival on the next day must happen on that day's eve in Jewish law, this would mean that friday nisan 15 was not only a day of festival (passover) but also a day of preparation for the sabath the next day. 2 consecutive days where food preparation is forbidden as would be the case with a passover followed by a sabath, never occured anywhere near Jesus' time, hence even in talmudic times there is hardly any instance of a passover falling on thursday night, and that is because the Rabbis who originally constructed the calendar deemed it an unacceptable burden on the community.
    The Bible and the Quran are not put together the same way. The Bible was written by men inspired by God, but the Quran was recited verbatim from the mouth of Allah; therefore, one discrepancy puts the whole Quran in jeopardy. With the Bible that is not the case. For instance, imagine you have people that witness an event it could be a game or an accident. Those that witness the event report back all they have seen and heard. When all information is gathered, we often find that there are what appears to be contradiction, but they are not really, because all different witness or people see in different ways and from different angles and perspectives. Even if there is a contradiction, does that mean the event didn't happen? No, it just adds creditability to the testimonies; otherwise, one can say or argue this was conspired by one person.

    Another fact is God spoke in times past by the prophets. So, there are Apostles, prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, teachers and witnesses. I don't believe that the disciples of Christ would risk their lives and die horrible deaths just to preach a tale. What we should focus on is the Quran that reports a contrary message to the Scriptures that came before. and what about the discrepancy of Allah having misconceptions of Christianity as we have mentioned in other threads. I am not concerned about the three days and nights. I know it all happened within a three day and night span of time.

    Peace, and may we both come to the knowledge of truth
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Your excuse doesnt hold and Jesus' couldnt have been crucified on both the eve of passover as well as on the day of passover itself. That is one of many important discrepencies surrounding the alleged event that cannot be explained throught the "different perspectives of the Gospel writers" argument. As to the disciples being the authors of the books you claim are their testimonies, no scholar worth a grain of salt would attribute the gospels' authorship to the disciples they are named after. And further, to be willing to die for a cause one believes to be true doesnt actually make it true. Keep also in mind that none of Jesus' followers witnessed Jesus' alleged crucifixion according to the NT itself and the narrations of the burrial and resurrection ae loaded with irreconcilable discrepencies from book to book, making the whole story look suspicious.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Your excuse doesnt hold and Jesus' couldnt have been crucified on both the eve of passover as well as on the day of passover itself..
    It holds better than the excuses I hear regarding Allah's misconceptions of God's tri unity.

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    That is one of many important discrepencies surrounding the alleged event that cannot be explained throught the "different perspectives of the Gospel writers" argument. As to the disciples being the authors of the books you claim are their testimonies, no scholar worth a grain of salt would attribute the gospels' authorship to the disciples they are named after.
    The Bible has room to give slightly varying testimonies, because it is not a verbatim dictation from God. It is from men sharing what they saw and heard and what bears witness in their spirit as inspired from God. There is bound to be differences, but the central message of the gospel is extremely consistent and always was. Jesus died and rose or our sin. Jesus is the son of God. The Bible in all versions flawlessly agree on all these points. The only thing that brings an "Important" discrepancy is not the Bible itself; it is the testimony of the Quran about the Bible and as I mentioned, the fact that Allah had misconception regarding the doctrine in the Bible and what Christians actually believed. The Quran cannot have any discrepancies just one ruins the whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    And further, to be willing to die for a cause one believes to be true doesnt actually make it true. .
    It doesn't make it false either and the Bible is a lot closer to the time events it records than the Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Keep also in mind that none of Jesus' followers witnessed Jesus' alleged crucifixion according to the NT itself and the narrations of the burrial and resurrection ae loaded with irreconcilable discrepencies from book to book, making the whole story look suspicious.
    How do you know? Can you prove that?

    Peace be upon you
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Jesus' crucifixion happens on 2 different days depending on which of those scripture that are all 2Tim3:16"God-breathed" (thus leaving no wiggle room for human error without compromising the whole as you would like to believe), and in addition, not any day but 2 days that are loaded with theological meaning since the sacrifice of the "passover lamb" is supposed to reproduce a ritual that can only happen on a specific day for it to be valid. So neither in this case nor in any other does the Bible have "room to give slightly varying testimonies".
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Jesus' crucifixion happens on 2 different days depending on which of those scripture that are all 2Tim3:16"God-breathed" (thus leaving no wiggle room for human error without compromising the whole as you would like to believe), and in addition, not any day but 2 days that are loaded with theological meaning since the sacrifice of the "passover lamb" is supposed to reproduce a ritual that can only happen on a specific day for it to be valid. So neither in this case nor in any other does the Bible have "room to give slightly varying testimonies".
    No wiggly room? You are confusion the Bible for the Quran. The Bible was NOT a verbatim dictation. There is way more wiggly room in it than the Quran, and keep in mind, it is the Scriptures that came before, and Muhammad respected that, Muslims today don't. People wrote truth in the Bible as they were inspired to do and believe we get and got the message.

    Muhammad never ever criticized the text like Muslims do today; he criticized people never the text. Now, since you are so big on discrepancies and contradictions in the Bible, why don't you plug in your computer contradictions in the Quran and see what you get. I get so many contradiction, but I don't brother posting them. I am just posting what I experience and learn about Islam from Muslims and reading the Quran and what scholars say. It will get us nowhere to compare contradiction from the Bible and Quran, because none of us are willing to believe there are contradictions.
    There is strong Scriptural evidence to show us that Jesus is the word of God, and if the word, He is eternal and uncreated. This is what Christians believe about Jesus the son of the living God.

    Peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 13th January 2014 at 22:32.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    "All scripture is God-breathed". You have no wiggle room. It wasnt a verbatim dictation but was according to your own NT 100% inspired. Did God inspire to John the information that Jesus was crucified on a certain day and inspired something else to the other Gospel writers?
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    "All scripture is God-breathed". You have no wiggle room. It wasnt a verbatim dictation but was according to your own NT 100% inspired. Did God inspire to John the information that Jesus was crucified on a certain day and inspired something else to the other Gospel writers?
    Is it all Scripture is inspired by God or all Scripture inspired by God is God breathed?

    The point is not when it happened. The point is that it did happen. The gospel writers report that it happened. The bigger discrepancy is that the Scriptures the Quran is suppose to confirm denies happened at all. You seem to be straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel as Jesus would say my friend.

    Peace
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Its "all scripture is God-breathed". One error compromises the whole and the one you're trying to slip under the rug and avoid addressing is loaded with theological meaning since it directly undermines the validity of the passover sacrifice.

    As to the Quran denying the supposed crucifixion, resurrection, etc not only do the internal confusion surrounding the events as reported in the various NT books support the quranic notion that they are forgeries and tales, but external and independant testimonies of historians completely dismiss any possibility for them to have occured.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Its "all scripture is God-breathed". One error compromises the whole and the one you're trying to slip under the rug and avoid addressing is loaded with theological meaning since it directly undermines the validity of the passover sacrifice..
    Do you think Muslims like you don't do this. You are a master at it and my teacher, lol. I'll to that! but you'll have to wait for Islam's paradise to do what is haram for you to do now.

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    As to the Quran denying the supposed crucifixion, resurrection, etc not only do the internal confusion surrounding the events as reported in the various NT books support the quranic notion that they are forgeries and tales, but external and independant testimonies of historians completely dismiss any possibility for them to have occurred.
    You have got to be joking. What could possible make you think the disciples of Jesus would die just to preach or give testimony to a tale ?????????? This is the most ridiculous of all your statements thus far.
    If anything the Quran is proving Allah is the best of deceivers by making something appear to be true that isn't. The real deception is getting Muslims to believe that Jesus didn't die for our sin. that is why he rightly identifies himself as the best of deceivers. IMHO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by Burninglight; 14th January 2014 at 21:36.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Isa , Yashu'a , Resurrected ( Fact or Fiction ) ??

    Put aside the NT and its contradictory account of the crucifixion and resurrection which you're obviously unable to reconcile and are now trrying to "lol" your way out of. Please show a single external historical source confirming those 2 incidents and dramatic events as reported in the NT, that couldnt have been missed by any writer of the time.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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