Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 67

Thread: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

  1. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    563

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    So the Quran's "mistake" consits in calling Mary with the Arabic Mariam? Did Jesus call his mother with the english "Mary"
    No, it is because of Sahih International
    Quran 19: 27 Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented. 28. O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste." This shows that Muhammad borrowed from the Talmud from Christianity and paganism and was confusing facts with falsehood. He tries to correct this blunder by scholars know better. He calls Mary the sister of Aaron. This is another discrepancy to add to the list you have, but all we need is one and the misconception the Quran proves of the Christian trinity did for me alone.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  2. #32
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,192

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote from George Sale who is christian but at least honest:
    George Sale in his translation of the Qur'an says:

    From the identity of names it has been generally imagined by Christian writers that the Koran here confounds Mary the mother of Jesus with Mary of Miriam, the sister of Moses and Aaron; which intolerable anachronism, if it were certain, is sufficient of itself to destroy the pretended authority of this book. But though Mohammed may be supposed to have been ignorant enough in ancient history and chronology, to have committed so gross a blunder; yet I do not see how it can be made out from the words of the Koran. For it does not follow, because two persons have the same name, and have each a father and brother who bear the same names, that they must therefore necessarily be the same whereby it manifestly appears that Mohammed well knew and asserted that Moses preceded Jesus several ages. And the commentators accordingly fail not to tell us, that there had passed about one thousand eight hundred years between Amran the father of Moses and Amrean the father of the Virgin Mary: they also make them the sons of different persons; the first, they say, was the son of Yeshar, or Izhar (though he was really his brother) the son of Kahath, the son of Levi; and the other was the son of Matthan, whose genealogy they trace, but in a very corrupt and imperfect manner, up to David and thence to Adam. It must be observed that though the Virgin Mary is called in the Koran, the sister of Aaron, yet she is nowhere called the sister of Moses.

  3. #33
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Africa and Europe
    Posts
    695

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    No, it is because of Sahih International
    Quran 19: 27 Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented. 28. O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste." This shows that Muhammad borrowed from the Talmud from Christianity and paganism and was confusing facts with falsehood. He tries to correct this blunder by scholars know better. He calls Mary the sister of Aaron. This is another discrepancy to add to the list you have, but all we need is one and the misconception the Quran proves of the Christian trinity did for me alone.
    Mary the mother of Jesus was, per the Quran a temple devotee who followed in the footsteps of her priestly family -the Levites per the Torah-. She likely did not partake in all the ceremonials with the males since the religious law of the Levites was only prescribed for males. It was Harun who is said to have initiated that function for the Israelites. A priest's daughter or "Bat-Kohen" is considered unique compared to the other Israelite daughters. A uniqueness due -amongst other attributes such as scrupulous modesty thereby portraying the values of maintaining a life dedicated to holiness- to her inherent ability to cope with above average and even intense levels of spirituality due to her upbringing by a Kohen/priest, whose life is dedicated to God's service. She is called Harun's sister metaphorically in allusion to her function as a sister in the priesthood of Harun 19:27-28.

    The Quran isnt referring to her descendancy from Harun as many Muslims usually say. The anti-Islamic response to that claim that it should have said "daughter of Harun" as is usally done when speaking of the descendant of an illustruous character is nonsensical in that context since the verse also speaks in one breath of her biological father and mother who have passed away. It would have been nonsensical to say "O daughter of Haroun, your father was not a bad man, nor, was your mother an unchaste woman".

    The other anti-islam argument that the phrase "sister of Harun" is literal instead of metaphorical in an effort to demonstrate the Quran thought Harun was Mary's biological and contemporary brother as said in the Bible when speaking of a different Mary, is just as nonsensical. Let us suppose the title "sister of Harun" was pointing to her descendancy or to her biological and contemporary brother to stress the shamefulness of her act in relation to the illustruous names in her family; why did the Jewish slanderers not resort to the weigthiest of all arguments by singling out her other alleged brother, Moses, whom they identified and still do today as the greatest of their prophets, who had superior authority, prestige and prophetic experience and instead point to Harun who was a mere support and assistant of Moses, who lacked authority among his people to the point they rebelled against him in Moses' absence and even indulged in polytheism under his watch? This makes absolutely no sense.

    Mary was a Temple devotee, Harun had established a sisterhood/brotherhood which was to be the exclusive prerogative of his descendants.
    Clearly, the mentionning of Harun instead of the greater names in Mary's alleged contemporary family such as Moses, demonstrates it cannot be speaking of her literal, physical sisterhood but is pointing to her function in the sisterhood of Harun hence her title "sister of Harun", a woman supposed to represent chastity and piety through her devotion in the Temple.

    Also, the Quran displays Mary and Jesus as coming after Moses, clearly in a context where countless generations of messengers succeeding eachother seperates them 2:87,3:50,5:43-46,etc which again negates the claim it thought they were all contemporaries due to the supposed mixing of Maryam the mother of Jesus with Maryam the sister of Aaron and Moses mentionned in the Bible.

    More importantly, contrary to Mary the sister of Aaron and Moses in the Bible from where critics claim the Quran copied from, Mary the mother of Jesus was orphanned very early on per the Quran meaning that her relatives spoken of during her early years and beyond are those of people who have passed away. In 19:28, the slanderers appeal to her parents' righteousness in the past tense, because they have passed away at the time. Because of this, she had to be put under someone elses' guardianship namely the prophet Zakariya and be raised outside her home at the Temple. In fact Mary was orphaned so young and abruptly that her entourage, after much contention, had to cast lots to finally decide who would be her guardian 3:44. Such measures would've been useless had her close relatives, such as her alleged brothers Moses and Harun been alive in her early years as stated in the Bible, and as the critics alledge was in mind of the Quran's author.

    As an aside, the Quran concludes Mary's narrative in 3:44, with an emphasis that the information revelaed -and more specifically the contention for Mary's guardianship- is something that was unknown until now.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

  4. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    563

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    naderM:
    You asked why did I say the Quran confused Mary for Aaron's sister; is it because they use the Arabic name Marium for Mary? I answered and said, "No" and gave a verse from the Quran to show why. It is ridiculous that one would have to or through such a long explanation to explain the Quranic verse that refers to the mother of Jesus as Aaron's sister; besides, I find your explanation convoluted and long. I just answered your question and now you know why.

    Peace to you
    Last edited by Burninglight; 15th January 2014 at 23:01.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  5. #35
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Africa and Europe
    Posts
    695

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    And now you know why it cannot possibly be referring to physical, contemporary sisterhood
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

  6. #36
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,192

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Moses and Aaron are in different time, place, and circumstances in Quran. On the other, hand Mary is in different time, place, and circumstances.

    The story of Moses and Aaron with him starts in Egypt when Egyptians were killing males of Israelite who they have made slaves. God saves Moses, raises him up and sends him to the Pharaoh to release the Israelite and let them take them with him. And this is where Moses ask God to also include Aaron with him as his speech is not clear and Aaron will be his back. Then God/Allah sends them both. They rescue Israelite, God saves them again and the Pharaoh drowns. Israelite are left to wonder in the desert as punishment for the things they were doing and giving Moses and Aaron very hard time even though God rescued them from the slavery and Pharaoh. I'm thinking from the top of my head but as far as I can recall they never made it to Jerusalem in the lifetime of Moses and Aaron. Nowhere here Mother of Jesus (Mary) has been mentioned in their episode.

    Story of Mary in Quran starts from Jerusalem (or where ever the temple was at that time, but it was not in Egypt). Mother of Mary prays to God that if God gives her a child (probably a boy thinking from the top of my head not sure she explicitly asked for a boy) then she will dedicate him to the temple. She gets a child, but it was a girl and God says He knew what He gave her - meaning it was a for a purpose and better than what she asked. She was concerned because she was a girl and how can she give her for temple services, but as she promised she dedicated Mary to the temple. In-charge of the temple probably would face lot of arguments over a girl dedicated in the temple so God told him or inspired to not to speak so he said to the people he has kept a fast not to speak and only did things from the temple with signs. Same thing Mary did when people were arguing with her she didn't speak and kept silent, but probably she would have been executed so Jesus as a baby spoke to them that he is a prophet and his birth is a miracle from God.

    There are more into these stories in Quran but I've posted part of the narration of these stories, and they are different times, places, and people in Quran.

  7. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    563

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    And now you know why it cannot possibly be referring to physical, contemporary sisterhood
    So, if that is the case, you should be able to understand that when we say Jesus is the divine son of God, we are not taking about His physical state when He walked the earth with those contemporaries of that time, but to His Spiritual nature as the word of God who is eternal and uncreated existing before all prophets or creation.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  8. #38
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Africa and Europe
    Posts
    695

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    So he wasnt fully God in his human form.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

  9. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    563

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    So he wasnt fully God in his human form.
    It is written in the Scriptures that came before: "In Him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily"
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  10. #40
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,192

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah


  11. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    563

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    IMO, This video shows the mentality of the poster!
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  12. #42
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Africa and Europe
    Posts
    695

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlight View Post
    The Lord who rules over all says, ‘In those days ten people from all languages and nations will grasp hold of – indeed, grab – the robe of one Jew and say, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. (Zechariah 8:23)

    This verse is talking about after the transformation of the earth where everyone on this planet will know God and want to worship him and will seek a Jew for guidence. So my question is, what if the Jews are right and that Jesus was just like other false Messiah who wasn't pose to come till the earth had changed? You can watch a lecture by a Jew who talks about what the Messiah is pose to do when he will come.
    In the OT, the messiah is a savior king-prophet that will usher the age of ingathering of the Jews in exile, rebuilding of the temple, observance of the Law, universal peace, universal knowledge of God, blissful utopia, end of evil and sin, disease and death. Obviously none of those criteria ever occured anywhere near Jesus' era. Also, in the OT, this figure is never referred to as a proper name, "THE Messiah" although one of his characteristics is that he will be "A" messiah like all kings of Israel, and like many other figures including prophets, meaning "annointed" for a specific purpose, and with God's blessing. The function of the "paraclete", per Jesus' prophecy concerning the salvific figure to come after him as reported in the NT, was to convict the world of sin "because men do not believe in me" as well as "testify about me" and this is precisely what Muhammad, the paraclete did. Like Peter answered in Lk9:18-20, the Quran reiterates that Jesus is "God's anointed", just like Samuel is "God's anointed" 2sam1:14, without giving any credence to the absurd claim made by the unknown NT writers that he is the prophesied anointed Jewish King, a claim that turned the OT/NT into a convoluted mess as can be seen all throughout the Judeo-Christian history and their never ending disputes regarding the identity of the promised king messiah (among other issues) 2:113"And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say".

    Jesus was rejected by his fellow Jews, not for claiming to be the promised ruler, but just like his predecessors Israelite prophets whom they calumnied, rejected, killed, because of his warnings and condemnations of the Jews. There is a reason why plenty evidence exists for Jewish messianic claimants during or just a few years after Jesus, but not 1 concerning a person named Jesus who claimed to be the Davidic king. There is a reason why the NT authors could not but paint that whole part of Jesus' ministry as some sort of hidden reality, with Jesus telling his followers to keep his alleged kingship to themselves Mk8:29, secretly admitting it to a woman Jn4, and offering differing answers to the high priest's charge against him, either obscuring or confirming the charge of him claiming to be the king messiah Matt26:63-64,Lk22:70,Mk14:62.

    For these reasons, when the Quran refers to Jesus as "the Messiah" it isnt in reference to the prophesied mythical and tribal figure of the OT. It simply is reiterating that he is God's anointed, which is the word's primary meaning whether in Arabic, Hebrew or Greek, and mentionning one of the names by which Jesus was called from his days until today. In 3:45 for example the angel informs Mary of what his names will be "the Messiah, Isa, son of Mary". The title Messiah/Christ gradually became equivalent to a proper name see these 2 links http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374x.htm http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Christ.html
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

  13. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    563

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    In the OT, the messiah is a savior king-prophet that will usher the age of ingathering of the Jews in exile, rebuilding of the temple, observance of the Law, universal peace, universal knowledge of God, blissful utopia, end of evil and sin, disease and death. Obviously none of those criteria ever occured anywhere near Jesus' era. Also, in the OT, this figure is never referred to as a proper name, "THE Messiah" although one of his characteristics is that he will be "A" messiah like all kings of Israel, and like many other figures including prophets, meaning "annointed" for a specific purpose, and with God's blessing. The function of the "paraclete", per Jesus' prophecy concerning the salvific figure to come after him as reported in the NT, was to convict the world of sin "because men do not believe in me" as well as "testify about me" and this is precisely what Muhammad, the paraclete did.]
    No, no, no, this can only be accepted by Muslims, because they are the only ones willing to believe what you say here. It is impossible to be Muhammad from a scriptural perspective, because the paraclete is who is in only born-again Christains as Jesus stated. You must born-again to see the kingdom of heaven Muslims know as paradise. Please excuse me for being impatient with this typical modern day Islamic belief, but nothing could be further from the truth. The truth is none other than Jesus the culmination of Israel and all prophets and God's law. I stand firm and adamant on this in the name of Jesus. The comforter or Spirit of truth (Holy Spirit) is alive. He is someone who glorifies Jesus in our lives, and He is ever with us (God with us). Muhammad is dead and didn't glorify Jesus in us; he glorified Allah and himself as his slave messenger!
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Like Peter answered in Lk9:18-20, the Quran reiterates that Jesus is "God's anointed",
    That is right! and that is the end of the story, because it is His-story!
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    just like Samuel is "God's anointed" 2sam1:14, without giving any credence to the absurd claim made by the unknown NT writers that he is the prophesied anointed Jewish King, a claim that turned the OT/NT into a convoluted mess as can be seen all throughout the Judeo-Christian history and their never ending disputes regarding the identity of the promised king messiah (among other issues) [I]2:113"And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say".
    Anyone who says Jesus is not the son of God or not the word of God incarnate follows nothing good.
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Jesus was rejected by his fellow Jews, not for claiming to be the promised ruler, but just like his predecessors Israelite prophets whom they calumnied, rejected, killed, because of his warnings and condemnations of the Jews. There is a reason why plenty evidence exists for Jewish messianic claimants during or just a few years after Jesus, but not 1 concerning a person named Jesus who claimed to be the Davidic king. There is a reason why the NT authors could not but paint that whole part of Jesus' ministry as some sort of hidden reality, with Jesus telling his followers to keep his alleged kingship to themselves Mk8:29, secretly admitting it to a woman Jn4, and offering differing answers to the high priest's charge against him, either obscuring or confirming the charge of him claiming to be the king messiah Matt26:63-64,Lk22:70,Mk14:62.]
    The Jews rejected the truth, but as many as received Him to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to those who believe on His name as the only begotten of the father
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    For these reasons, when the Quran refers to Jesus as "the Messiah" it isnt in reference to the prophesied mythical and tribal figure of the OT. It simply is reiterating that he is God's anointed, which is the word's primary meaning whether in Arabic, Hebrew or Greek, and mentionning one of the names by which Jesus was called from his days until today. In 3:45 for example the angel informs Mary of what his names will be "the Messiah, Isa, son of Mary". The title Messiah/Christ gradually became equivalent to a proper name see these 2 links http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374x.htm http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Christ.html
    he is never referred to as the son of Mary unless to disparage the miracle God has done and to reject His salvation that is only through Christ Jesus!
    Last edited by Burninglight; 21st January 2014 at 01:16.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  14. #44
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,192

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    No Jew here so I'll post a Jewish article on this topic: http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq...faq/17-03.html

    Interesting read: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ism/jesus.html "Were Jesus to return today, most Jews believe, he undoubtedly would feel more at home in a synagogue than a church." I can see their reasoning.
    Last edited by hyd; 22nd January 2014 at 10:25.

  15. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    563

    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    No Jew here so I'll post a Jewish article on this topic: http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq...faq/17-03.html

    Interesting read: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ism/jesus.html "Were Jesus to return today, most Jews believe, he undoubtedly would feel more at home in a synagogue than a church." I can see their reasoning.
    That was an interesting article. The Jews totally reject Jesus as the Messiah, but Islam doesn't. Now, where did the knowledge first come from that Jesus is the Messiah? Answer, It came from Christianity; Where did the knowledge of Jesus' virgin birth come from? Answer, It obviously came from Christianity.

    This tells me that Muhammad has imperfectly borrowed from Judaism about the oneness of God with no mediator, but he rejected the religion of Judaism; otherwise, Muslims would be true to Judaism. Moreover, it tells me Muhammad imperfectly borrowed from Christianity to where he accepted Jesus is the Messiah and born of a virgin, but he rejected Jesus' divine role for humanity as the NT Bible clearly spells out.

    Islam, IMHO, is nothing more than a mix up of Judaism and Christianity. It appears to be a religion that is sitting on the fence so the speak; it can't make up its mind to be a Jew or a Christian. Therefore, Islam is rejected by both Jews and Christians, and it is a religion that fulfills the prophecy in the torah that the seed of Ishmael will be strong with him against every man and every man against him.

    Jews are against Islam by rejecting it; Christianity is against Islam by rejecting it, and atheists are against Islam; every man is against Islam and Islam is against all religions until sharia is established. The world is against the very idea of sharia, and that is prophecy being fulfilled from the torah portion of the Bible before our very eyes.

    Now, all the other prophecies that the Messiah hasn't fulfilled according to the Jews has yet to happen. The Jews will see the truth about Jesus, and when they do, they will convert to Christianity. There is nothing else they can do but accept the message of the Jewish apostles of Jesus; then the whole world will see clearly where Islam stands. Muslims themselves will see where they stand; then, they too will come off the fence and accept the true word of God who is Jesus, the truth, the life, and the only way! I do so swear and testify that Jesus will receive the reward of His suffering.

    Deedat and all that follow in his steps and those who deny Jesus now as the suffering servant who died and rose from the dead are poking a finger in God's eye. When I look at Deedat's end, I am convinced I saw him received the reward of his labors.

    May God deliver you from such an end and bring you peace that passes all understanding as only Jesus can bring for He is the Prince of Peace

    peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 22nd January 2014 at 15:05.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

Similar Threads

  1. I'm not the Messiah......honestly!!!
    By -Farrah- in forum University of Cut-n-Paste
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 28th March 2010, 05:25
  2. A Messiah for our time
    By DocW in forum General Conversations
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 18th April 2009, 08:32
  3. Why do Muslims believe Jesus was the Jewish Messiah?
    By chokmah in forum Interfaith Dialogue
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 21st November 2005, 05:10
  4. Jesus As Messiah
    By The Shah in forum Islamic Discussions
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 31st August 2005, 19:59
  5. Jesus as Messiah?
    By Yahyah Zamzam in forum Discussion Archives
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 14th October 2003, 13:31

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •