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Thread: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

  1. #16
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Just calling Jesus "son of Mary" is disrespecting, because God refers to Him as His son. He is the son of God. How would you like being called son of your mother or calling Muhammad son of his mother? Everyone has or had a father!
    He is also called "son of Joseph", was it literal? It isnt out of some strange notion of respect that the Gospel writers didnt refer to Jesus with his matronym. It simply is so because they had no interest in tracing Jesus' genealogy through Mary (since it goes against Jewish law) because their object was to fulfill the OT's tribal requirements for the Messiah so they invented 2 (conflicting) genealogies through an adoptive father, Joseph, hence him being portrayed as known under the patronym "son of Joseph" in the Gospels however they made fatal flaws in both genealogies cancelling any legitimate claims to the throne of the King Messiah.

    While addressing the blessed Mary in 3:45, the name of Jesus is qualified with the phrase "son of Mary" to tell her he would be born without the agency of a father and therefore would be known with this name because to make the point clear that this child would have no father it would not have been enough to simply tell her she would bear a child as seen in Sara's case 11:71-3, hence Mary's astonishement as to what that statement implied in 3:47, ie the fact that she will be pregnant miraculously without a male touching her. In semitic tradition a person was identified by the father's name so nothing could have been more striking in the psyche of a woman of the time to be told that her son will not be identified by his affiliation to a male, but to a woman.
    The phrase "son of Mary" also informs her that she would jointly share this sign with him forever as both of their names will be mentionned together 23:50,21:91"and made her and her son a sign for the worlds". Jesus is the only explicit case in the Quran where a human's birth did not result from sexual reproduction. The Quran doesnt even state that Adam was born in such a way. Jesus as well as his mother were chosen to be made jointly, "A" single sign of the power of the Maker and Creator over all things. So from a Quranic perspective, that miracle equally sets Mary and Jesus appart from humanity. This sign obviously consists in demonstrating how the process of resurrection isnt a difficult task, for how could it be hard for God to give life to anything when it was made possible for a female to give life without the necessary biological process?

    The NT writers firstly wanted Jesus to be traced up to King David to fulfill the criteria for the Messiah's lineage, hence the introduction of an adoptive father, Joseph and the portrayal of Jesus as being known under the patronym "son of Joseph" in his community, and secondly tried "protecting" Mary's public image as the future mother of a superhuman being, saying she was engaged before her pregnancy and married when she delivered meaning the virgin birth was a secret yet this was, according to the NT writers that base themselves on the infamous mistranslation of Isa7:14 in the Greek Septuagint, of the most crucial fulfilements of OT prophecies the Israelites had to know from the very beginning to identify the awaited savior Isa7:14,Matt1:22"All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel". It is no surprise that in his purported letters, Ignatius the bishop of Antioch and supposed disciple of the apostles declares that Mary's virginity and child bearing were secrets only made known to the world through a "star". Jesus had to be known as special since the very beginning, according to specific criteria in order to be identified, yet not only was the virgin birth obscured to the people through the absurd introduction of a husband (whom the authors needed to establish a genealogy to king David) but the NT also repeatedly says how the young Jesus was completely unknown in any particular way prior to his ministry in adulthood, see Matt13 for example.

    The absurdity doesnt end here, the same NT that tells us his people knew nothing special about him prior to his ministry also tells us of the all the wonderful signs and wonders surrounding his first moments as an infant, the celestial signs that prompted both friends and foes to look for him even from outside Palestine, people such as the Magi coming "from the east" to worship the newly born "king of the Jews", and king Herod who, fearing for his throne, began slaughtering all male infants born in Bethleem at that particular time which prompted Mary to flee with her son to Nazareth Matt2. Part of the NT establishes the fact that it was well known in and outside Palestine that the awaited savior had come, and countless people identified him with Jesus since his youngest days as seen from the time of Mary's miraculous conception which caused Elizabeth to refer to her as "mother of my Lord" as she saw her pregnant Lk1, the shepherds who rushed to Bethleem to see the newly born Messiah of whom the angels told them about and after seeing him Lk2:17"they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them" or Anna, the daughter of Penuel as well as Simeon who recognized in the newly born Jesus the awaited savior and told others about him Lk2, the astonishement of all learned people as they heard the child at the Temple displaying the wisdom and knowledge God granted him. This last incident is preceded by the unprobable scenario of Jesus' parents travelling from Jerusalem where they had attended Passover, back to their hometown of Nazareth and only noticing after a day's walk that the little Jesus had been left behind, prompting their return to Jerusalem, and only found him after 3 days search. Astoundingly, the NT writers also paint Mary and Joseph completely ignorant of what Jesus meant when he stated that he "must be concerned with the affairs of my Father" in response to Mary's scolding him because of his disappearance Lk2:42-50. Did Mary and Joseph suddenly forget all the miraculous signs and fame surrounding his infancy just 12 years after his birth, as if they had never heard of them and their obvious implications as regards his identity?

    The Quran, far from copying the above NT absurdities, says the virgin birth was a miracle made known to all. It would be foolish to provide a miracle of virgin birth to demonstrate the special nature of a child, when the woman who is suppose to carry the child is married. The protection of the virgin birth reaches such an extent in the Quran that whenever Jesus is quoted as addressing the Israelites, he does not once call them "my people" or "my nation" as other Israelite prophets like Moses are quoted as saying in the Quran. Jesus always calls them "Bani Israel" because they, contrary to him, could trace their lineage up to Israel from their fathers, which wasnt his case.

    Son of Mary is another testimony by those who believed in him that they recognize as true the miraculous circumstances of his birth. While the Quran does agree on certain points with the NT just as it does with the OT in other instances the Quran corrects the errors that have crept into these Books and further adds additional information. If Muhammad was copying from them, then one has to explain how the very subtle differences, which are loaded with meaning, let alone the major differences are there in the Quran.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Son of Mary is another testimony by those who believed in him that they recognize as true the miraculous circumstances of his birth. While the Quran does agree on certain points with the NT just as it does with the OT in other instances the Quran corrects the errors that have crept into these Books and further adds additional information. If Muhammad was copying from them, then one has to explain how the very subtle differences, which are loaded with meaning, let alone the major differences are there in the Quran.
    There is no other "original source" or place that records Jesus' virgin birth save in the NT Bible. Jesus being referred to as son of Mary was used in the Bible once in a disparaging way. Referring to Jesus during his ministry as "son of Mary" is disrespectful to say the least. If He were referred that way as a babe in his mother's arms, that is understandable, but not as a man from God; sent from God.

    He is the son of God. That is why even Jesus referred to his mother as woman. She needed deliverance as part of the lost house of Israel like the rest whom Jesus came to save. The Quran's job was never designed to correct or usurp the Scripture that came before; it was supposed to confirm it; therefore, it has failed to do that, IMHO! Every person in the world has had a father! But Jesus is the only unique son of God! Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He" (the son of God)

    Peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 12th January 2014 at 13:57.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  3. #18
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    The Quran is the only scripture that protects the virgin birth's integrity, it was precisely shown why and you havent addressed it yet you continue with your original misconceptions. The NT dismisses the virgin birth to obscurity. And where does the NT call Jesus with his matronym?
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    The Quran is the only scripture that protects the virgin birth's integrity, it was precisely shown why and you havent addressed it yet you continue with your original misconceptions. The NT dismisses the virgin birth to obscurity. And where does the NT call Jesus with his matronym?
    I am not sure what kind of point you are trying to make. The Bible makes the virgin birth clear and why Jesus had to have been born of a virgin whereas the Quran does not. The Bible protects the virgin birth story just fine; the Quran puts a twist on it that makes in virtually insignificant, because it makes Jesus equal to all prophets. He is not equal to other prophets. He is a Prophet's prophet, the King of kings and Lord of lords. the true seal of the prophets and the law. When He returns you will see it written on His thigh King of Kings and Lord of lords. All people, tongues and nations will bow and confess that He is Lord to the glory of the father. Jesus calls His God father, and the father calls Jesus Lord. There is no such term as father concerning God in Islam. Moreover Muhammad never mentioned or knew the name of God nor is it recorded in the Quran. So you cannot be sure who the god of Islam really is!

    Peace
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  5. #20
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    How is the virgin birth protected when it is a sign all of Israel had to recognize in order to identify the awaited one according to Matthew's opening chapter yet it is hidden from all in ways already explained in a previous post. The Quran protects that miracle, shows how it was announced publicly and proved true to the Israelites. It also protects the virgin birth's true religious implication "And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our ruh/breeze and made her and her son a sign for the nations". Jesus as well as his mother were chosen to be made jointly, "A" single sign of the power of the Maker and Creator over all things. So from a Quranic perspective, that miracle equally sets Mary and Jesus appart from humanity. This sign consists in demonstrating how the resurrection of bodies isnt a difficult task to God. We deem it impossible for a female to give life without the necessary biological process yet God did it, so just as He easily creates life in conditions we think should make it impossible then similarily He is able to bring the dead back to life even if the conditions make it unfeasable from our perspective. The rejection of the concept of resurrection by many Jews of the time adds to the relevancy of that miracle. One can even argue that Jesus was given the greatest argument for resurrection among God's prophets who all stressed the importance of that belief to their people. It also is to be noted that Jesus is the only explicit case in the Quran where a human's birth did not result from sexual reproduction. The Quran doesnt even state that Adam was born in such a way, ie that he was not the result of sexual reproduction.

    As to your "king of kings" of 1Tim6:14-16 well sorry to disappoint you but it is used for many others in the Hebrew bible without making them gods, but rather pointing to how powerful they were among their contemporaries. Besides, other translations than the notoriously corrupt KJV, make 1Tim6:14-16 clear and show that King of Kings and Lord of Lords refer to God, not Jesus and both are presented as distinct beings "to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen."
    But whether KJV or any other Bible version, one cannot say the titles refer to Jesus, since the "Lord of Lords" is described as One "whom no one has seen or can see", which wasnt Jesus' case.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    It also is to be noted that Jesus is the only explicit case in the Quran where a human's birth did not result from sexual reproduction. The Quran doesnt even state that Adam was born in such a way, ie that he was not the result of sexual reproduction..
    That is fine. The Quran agrees with the Bible about Jesus' virgin birth. I give it credit for that, but no special credit over the Bible for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    But whether KJV or any other Bible version, one cannot say the titles refer to Jesus, since the "Lord of Lords" is described as One "whom no one has seen or can see", which wasnt Jesus' case.
    Jn 1. states Jesus is the word of God, the Quran states that he is a word from Allah. People have seen the Lord of Lords only because God's word was made flesh.

    The Quran states Jesus is a word from Allah, but what is that word? isn't it "Be" and He was? Jesus is the word "Be" which is a form of I am. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I am" Jesus is the "I am" who is the same "I am" that spoke with Moses. Moses said, "Who do I say sent me?" The Lord of Lords said, "I am that I am." You see, the word of God is more than just a prophet. The word of God is eternal and uncreated "I am."

    Please pray about it. What other prophet could say "I am" before Abraham?; what other prophet can forgive sin against God like Jesus did; what other prophet, priest or king could receive worship and accept it. Jesus accepted worship that only belongs to God.

    Pray about it. What kind of credit do you think God will give you for making Jesus equal to every other prophet and maybe less than Muhammad. Pray about it. Jesus said, "All things the father has are mine" That means all things; therefore, Jesus owns all prophets including the one you revere. I follow the owner not the owned. What about you? Muslims say to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah, but the Scriptures say, to obey Jesus is to obey God!

    Muslims don't have to live in the uncertainty of their eternal destiny. God sent Jesus to be the author and finisher of your faith to where the battle is the Lord's. He will finish the work He started in you, but you must surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. There is no other name given whereby we might be saved.

    I read this testimony of a well respect Muslim businessman who had a dream that Isa al Masih appeared to him in a dream saying I am the light of the world. Ironically, he woke up blind remained that way and became a Christian. His testimony almost matches what happened to Saul later to be named Paul who regained his sight at least most of it.

    Muslims don't have to live their lives wondering will my good deeds be enough to satisfy God? Will God save me by having mercy on me in the end? All of these question have answers only in Christ. Jesus wasn't joking when He said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe "I am" He! God doesn't want us to live in uncertainty because He loves us more than parents love their children. I wouldn't want my son to not be sure he would be my heir. So, how much more would God want us to know that our names are written in the Book of life. The only way is through Christ. Satan is the father of lies and he doesn't want you to heed the message of Christ so he can claim you for a Godless eternity.

    you are greatly loved
    Last edited by Burninglight; 13th January 2014 at 13:01.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  7. #22
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    The Quran restores the truth and integrity of the virgin birth, as was shown. As to Jesus being God's kalima/word, it is because he was the physical proof of the prophecy conveyed to Mary 3:45"Allah gives you good news with a word/kalima from Him (of one) whose name is the Messiah, Isa son of Marium", and in this way, he became the "word" itself 4:171"and His Word which He communicated to Maryam" just like the prophet Yahya was the physical proof of God's prophecy conveyed to Zakariya 3:39"Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a word/kalima from Allah". Kalimatullah in these contexts is simply the word of God in the sense of His promise as amply used in the Quran 6:34,115,10:64,18:27 etc.
    The particular circumstances of Yahya/John and Isa's miraculous births do not make either of them divine because all of them were mortals, and all humans have been created through a process fully in God's hands and have the same constituants 3:59"Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be", and he was". They are both the manifestation of the creative word 2:117"Be". Jesus is also a spirit from/proceeding from Allah like Adam and all his progeny received the spirit from Allah 32:9,38:71-2. The action of Allah sending something from Him to fill the recipient is done with other things, for example His sakina (tranquility) that filled Muhammad and the believers 9:26.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    The Quran restores the truth and integrity of the virgin birth, as was shown. As to Jesus being God's kalima/word, it is because he was the physical proof of the prophecy conveyed to Mary 3:45"Allah gives you good news with a word/kalima from Him (of one) whose name is the Messiah, Isa son of Marium", and in this way, he became the "word" itself 4:171"and His Word which He communicated to Maryam" just like the prophet Yahya was the physical proof of God's prophecy conveyed to Zakariya 3:39"Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a word/kalima from Allah". Kalimatullah in these contexts is simply the word of God in the sense of His promise as amply used in the Quran 6:34,115,10:64,18:27 etc.
    The particular circumstances of Yahya/John and Isa's miraculous births do not make either of them divine because all of them were mortals, and all humans have been created through a process fully in God's hands and have the same constituants 3:59"Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be", and he was". They are both the manifestation of the creative word 2:117"Be". Jesus is also a spirit from/proceeding from Allah like Adam and all his progeny received the spirit from Allah 32:9,38:71-2. The action of Allah sending something from Him to fill the recipient is done with other things, for example His sakina (tranquility) that filled Muhammad and the believers 9:26.
    Seems like Allah confused Aaron's sister Marium for Mary. I don't see restoration of any sort. I just see imperfectly borrowed material and a convolution of the Scriptures that came before. I feel like we are now wasting each other's time.
    Peace
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Its a figure of speech that she is from the lineage of Aaron a highly noble man then how she could do such a thing. God here is just narrating a story what was said to her when they saw she has a child out of wedlock.

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    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Burninglight,

    The way the Quran restores the truth was shown and you havent addressed a single of those arguments, just as you havent dealt with the NT's obscuring of that miracle.

    So how is there any confusion regarding Mary's identity in the Quran
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Burninglight,

    The way the Quran restores the truth was shown and you havent addressed a single of those arguments, just as you havent dealt with the NT's obscuring of that miracle.

    So how is there any confusion regarding Mary's identity in the Quran
    naderM,
    Don't be afraid to repeat what I haven't address. I have been repeating myself. I am responding to lots of posts and not just on this forum. I assure you I am not purposely avoiding any points. So, I don't have a clue what the NT's is obscuring or what arguments I haven't addressed. Just repeat them, but if I answered them, I'll get on your case about it, lol

    Did I say there was confusion regarding Mary's identity in the Quran, unless you mean it confused her for Marium Aarons sister???

    Best regards
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  12. #27
    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    The arguments are all over the thread for any reader wishing to consult them, just as is your inability to deal with them.

    Sure, you meant there is confusion regarding Mary's identity in the Quran when you say it though she was Aaron's sister. So come on, bring your proof.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah


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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    The arguments are all over the thread for any reader wishing to consult them, just as is your inability to deal with them.

    Sure, you meant there is confusion regarding Mary's identity in the Quran when you say it though she was Aaron's sister. So come on, bring your proof.
    naderM:
    May I ask are you a brother? Let me say I do enjoy your challenging me like no other Muslim has done before. You are extremely knowledgeable. I wouldn't doubt more so than me; so, to this I say may the truth prevail. Let answer with prove it wasn't a mistaken identity. I think an all knowing god should've gotten the names right to make his message universal for non-Muslims especially if they are Christians that know the name is Mary and not Marium. end of this story for me!

    Sincerely, I appreciate your zeal even though is not according to knowledge that comes from God

    peace to you and thanks
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Senior Member naderM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jewish view of the Earth change and the Messiah

    So the Quran's "mistake" consits in calling Mary with the Arabic Mariam? Did Jesus call his mother with the english "Mary"
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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