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Thread: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

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    Default Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    I thought I'd continue the discussion on this topic in this section, rather in the Islamic discussion section where this issue arose.

    In discussing the Biblical teachings of Hell, and whether backspace is right that the Bible does not say Hindus go to hell or whether jude's view is right that they do.. this point came up about whether Hitler could be in heaven.

    If Hitler had sincerely accepted Jesus before he died (and assuming he didn't commit suicide), jude said that in Christianity Hitler would be saved and therefore be in Heaven. Gandhi, according to Christianity as jude understands it, IS definitely going to Hell.

    Now, the Hitler possibly being in Heaven is an extreme example. However jude sincerely believes that a death bed conversion could have secured heaven for Hitler - but Gandhi is doomed.

    Leaving Gandhi to one side, the issue with Hitler being in heaven raises the question of whether it makes sense that a belief can over-turn a pretty large list of sins (to put it diplomatically).

    Islam, Judaism and pretty much most people around the world who believe in the afterlife would say that Hitler would suffer and not be rewarded, for his actions. That he was sorry for the crimes at the end is not enough to over-turn the calculated and deliberate crimes he committed.

    I presume that even in Hinduism and Buddhism - he'd be punished for his crimes, even if he repented.

    Is it only Pauline Christianity that therefore offers an immediate salvation for just believing, and not actually doing anything but believe?

    Cheers,
    Shafique

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    Default Re: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shafique View Post
    If Hitler had sincerely accepted Jesus before he died (and assuming he didn't commit suicide), jude said that in Christianity Hitler would be saved and therefore be in Heaven. Gandhi, according to Christianity as jude understands it, IS definitely going to Hell.

    Now, the Hitler possibly being in Heaven is an extreme example. However jude sincerely believes that a death bed conversion could have secured heaven for Hitler - but Gandhi is doomed.

    Leaving Gandhi to one side, the issue with Hitler being in heaven raises the question of whether it makes sense that a belief can over-turn a pretty large list of sins (to put it diplomatically).

    Islam, Judaism and pretty much most people around the world who believe in the afterlife would say that Hitler would suffer and not be rewarded, for his actions. That he was sorry for the crimes at the end is not enough to over-turn the calculated and deliberate crimes he committed.
    Are you sure this is the stance of Islam and that sincere repentance would not be enough ? (although, there are multiple dimensions in this kind of imaginative question, since we need to look into crimes against humans vis-a-vis not respecting the duties unto God..)
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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    Default Re: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    In Islam, God is the judge and will weigh up whether the sincere repentance of Hitler moments before he dies is sufficient to out weigh the sins.

    I'd say that if the repentance had come years earlier, and he had a chance to make some ammends, God would be more forgiving. But for a person who calculatingly and deliberately committed these types of crimes, it would be against God's justice to let him go without any punishment just if he says he is sorry.

    Just my opinion. Do you think a sincere repentance would spare him from punishment?

    Cheers,
    Shafique

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    Moderator shaad_lko's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    I believe jude is saying the same when he talks of sincere repentance.
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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    Default Re: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    Islam, Judaism and pretty much most people around the world who believe in the afterlife would say that Hitler would suffer and not be rewarded, for his actions.

    Really? Could you please explain the following hadith?

    "If a person's last words are Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah, Paradise will be guaranteed for him."

    Narrated by Ahmad, 21529; Abu Dawood, 3116; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa' al-Ghaleel, 687
    But purely from an Islamic perspective, I'd say it makes sense that someone converting at the last minute (with sincere intention) would enter Paradise.

    It would be silly to judge someone's painting in a pitch black room. Only when light is present does it make sense to judge that person's ability to paint.

    I'd say it's also unfair for that person to have to use the same canvas from before.

    Why not give that person, now that he can see, a blank canvas?

    Even if he doesn't paint before he dies he won't be judged by how badly his painting was in the dark.
    Last edited by backspace; 24th July 2012 at 21:44.

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    Default Re: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shafique View Post
    I thought I'd continue the discussion on this topic in this section, rather in the Islamic discussion section where this issue arose.

    In discussing the Biblical teachings of Hell, and whether backspace is right that the Bible does not say Hindus go to hell or whether jude's view is right that they do.. this point came up about whether Hitler could be in heaven.

    If Hitler had sincerely accepted Jesus before he died (and assuming he didn't commit suicide), jude said that in Christianity Hitler would be saved and therefore be in Heaven. Gandhi, according to Christianity as jude understands it, IS definitely going to Hell.

    Now, the Hitler possibly being in Heaven is an extreme example. However jude sincerely believes that a death bed conversion could have secured heaven for Hitler - but Gandhi is doomed.

    Leaving Gandhi to one side, the issue with Hitler being in heaven raises the question of whether it makes sense that a belief can over-turn a pretty large list of sins (to put it diplomatically).

    Islam, Judaism and pretty much most people around the world who believe in the afterlife would say that Hitler would suffer and not be rewarded, for his actions. That he was sorry for the crimes at the end is not enough to over-turn the calculated and deliberate crimes he committed.

    I presume that even in Hinduism and Buddhism - he'd be punished for his crimes, even if he repented.

    Is it only Pauline Christianity that therefore offers an immediate salvation for just believing, and not actually doing anything but believe?

    Cheers,
    Shafique
    You are either accidently or wilfully misquoting me on Ghandi.

    I have answered this about 4 times now...wher God alone knows the herat...and God has said that he is revealed through creation and in our conscience.

    I then wrote -

    On Ghandi...as I havel also repeatedly said, only God knows salvation and the heart. But yes, if Ghandi heard the gospel, yet rejected who jesus was, he would be unsaved. You are trapped in an argument about morality vs what Jesus taught about being made judicially rightous before a holy God. As it says, "All have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God." This includes Hitler AND Ghandi.

    So, for the 5th time:

    Ghandi would go to hell if:

    1. he rejected the spirit directing him re creation (in the seeking of the true God), and his conscience (eg his sin, and seeking the true God)
    2. he heard the gospel but chose to reject the message that Jesus saves via the blood atonement

    Talk about tedious.

    Can you kindly retract your claim about my positon on this....? Is that too much to ask? Probably.

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    Default Re: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    Are you sure this is the stance of Islam and that sincere repentance would not be enough ? (although, there are multiple dimensions in this kind of imaginative question, since we need to look into crimes against humans vis-a-vis not respecting the duties unto God..)
    Oops. Without 100% agreement by muslims on this fundamental question, how can we trust the Koran...!?!

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    Default Re: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shafique View Post
    In Islam, God is the judge and will weigh up whether the sincere repentance of Hitler moments before he dies is sufficient to out weigh the sins.

    I'd say that if the repentance had come years earlier, and he had a chance to make some ammends, God would be more forgiving. But for a person who calculatingly and deliberately committed these types of crimes, it would be against God's justice to let him go without any punishment just if he says he is sorry.

    Just my opinion. Do you think a sincere repentance would spare him from punishment?

    Cheers,
    Shafique
    How do you view, then, the story of the thief on the cross?

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    Default Re: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    Oh, here's one.

    Take a real rat-bag of a sinner, murderer, rapist etc...all his life. Then, he converts to Islam and on the same day, enters a jihad by blowing himself in a war scene. Is he saved?

    I love these hypotheticals...I can see we'll have plenty of talk to go on for years this way....

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    Default Re: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    In Islamic law, as Shaad alluded to, the rights of God and the rights of men are two distinct things. As a consequence, just because God forgives a particular sin, does not mean that the person who was sinned against will necessarily do so as well. But it seems that often people, in their religious fervor, do not respect a little thing called nuance.

    Conversion in Islam does not remove the rights that an individual took from someone. So a true conversion (i.e., repentance) would entail confession for the sins that they committed to the parties they were committed against if their sin deprived the victim of any tangible rights or intangible rights (like honor if they were victims of libel and public slander). So a thief would have to pay back all the money they stole, a rapist would owe an apology and dowry to his victims and a murderer would necessarily confess to their crimes, putting themselves at the mercy of either the family or justice system if this has not already taken place and one who slandered another would have to do a public retraction in a way that reverses the initial wrong - while the sin in each case is forgiven upon conversion (generally speaking), the rights they owe to their victim is/are not.

    And Shaad_lko, in my opinion, is correct. You both are essentially saying the same thing. What Islam rejects is someone who obstinately rejects the truth until the moment before death when the illusion of their power has faded away and the are forced by circumstance to face reality when free-will is no longer relevant.

    And jude3, where is your Scriptural evidence that only those who heard and rejected Jesus' message will be held to account? Not saying that you are wrong, I am just curious because that definitely has historically not been a generally held belief among Christians - to the point where I have met Southern Baptists and Evangelicals who told me that the Old Testament prophets were all in Hell for rejecting the Trinity and were not liberated until after the crucifixion.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 25th July 2012 at 05:42.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    And Shaad_lko, in my opinion, is correct. You both are essentially saying the same thing. What Islam rejects is someone who obstinately rejects the truth until the moment before death when the illusion of their power has faded away and the are forced by circumstance to face reality when free-will is no longer relevant.
    But Yeshua said, 'TODAY, you will be with me in paradise.' And the prodigal son didn't repay anything to the father...he just thew himself at the mercy/grace of the father. And how did the woman caught in adultery pay anyone back with deeds etc? Jesus addressed her sin...she was free.

    You see, Islam really struggles with this absolute nature of grace....'undeserved...and unmerited favour.'

    We see it with Yahweh time and time again with the obstinant Jews. Always rebelling...always truning away from God. Yet what does God say about them? "I don't do this (rescue you) for anything you've done...but I do this for my great name's sake." Meaning, God said he would keep them...and he is true to his name.

    Perhaps you're like that angry Muslim who was on the forum a year ago (perhaps it was even you...!?) who said he would THRASH the prodigal son in order to make sure he was sorry, then he would love/receive him back home. THAT is the grace of Islam....justice BEFORE mercy.

    Wow. Imagine if our holy God did that to all of mankind...sinners before a righteous and holy God. He has the right and entitlement so judge us to his exacting standards. As sinners, we could be wiped out like those of Noah's day. Yet, God chooses to show us his faviour and grace WITHOUT the severe jugdgment....that judgment was born out by Yeshua on the cross of Calvary.

    What love...what a saviour.

    Good news, eh?

    And jude3, where is your Scriptural evidence that only those who heard and rejected Jesus' message will be held to account? Not saying that you are wrong, I am just curious because that definitely has historically not been a generally held belief among Christians - to the point where I have met Southern Baptists and Evangelicals who told me that the Old Testament prophets were all in Hell for rejecting the Trinity and were not liberated until after the crucifixion.
    I've quoted enough verses to support my statements. It is sad that you have come across some Christians who hold that view re the OT prophets. I reject what they told you outright. We have ample of verses in the OT that believers in God (Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) were saved and destined for Glory. We do not need to speculate about the Trinity etc...because verses say these prophets were saved. Period. I think those people who told you that were anti Jewish....pretty sad.

    Kind regards

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    Default Re: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    I am actually a little offended that you consider that to be a proper response. More importantly, it highlights the difficulty with your participation on this discussion forum since I have known you. It is impossible to hold a conversation with someone who does not seem able or willing to comprehend what is being said. I don't see how I could have said what I did in my previous reply any clearer, but in the hopes of reaching some common ground:

    1) Please explain to us how the story of the prostitute in the New Testament is in anyway related to the rights of God vis-a-vis the rights of men.

    2) Additionally: as we were speaking of the hypothetical, the Islamic stance on sin is that some sin are violations of God's commandments exclusively and others are violations of God's commandments vis-a-vis the rights of other people. God forgives or punishes the former as He pleases, while the latter is tied to man's will.

    2a) Hence, if someone stole money and repented, the sin of that theft is God's jurisdiction, but the money itself is the jurisdiction of the person it was taken from and repentance from such an act necessarily entails that the money is returned to its rightful owner. Hence, even though conversion wipes away sins, it does not wipe away the rights of others and even a convert, whose past sin are wiped cleaned in any and every religion that I know of, in Islam are nonetheless obliged to restore the rights that they wrongfully took from others, even if the moral culpability of the sin is forgiven through their act of conversion.

    2b) Therefore, in your opposition to my reply to you, it is implied that if someone was a theif and then converted to Christianity, it your assertion that they are under no obligation to return the money and property that they stole as apart of their repentance?

    Additionally, I don't read posts here often, so even though you may have quoted verses in the past to support your statements, I was not privy to them. If you are going to continue to go into completely irrelevant sectarian rants instead of having genuine academic discussions, then proceed as you have and please, ignore my intrusion. If all you can do is preach and are unable to hold an actual discussion with people who genuinely interested in dialog, your time will be better spent elsewhere.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 25th July 2012 at 10:39.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    I am actually a little offended that you consider that to be a proper response. More importantly, it highlights the difficulty with your participation on this discussion forum since I have known you. It is impossible to hold a conversation with someone who does not seem able or willing to comprehend what is being said. I don't see how I could have said what I did in my previous reply any clearer, but in the hopes of reaching some common ground:

    1) Please explain to us how the story of the prostitute in the New Testament is in anyway related to the rights of God vis-a-vis the rights of men.

    2) Additionally: as we were speaking of the hypothetical, the Islamic stance on sin is that some sin are violations of God's commandments exclusively and others are violations of God's commandments vis-a-vis the rights of other people. God forgives or punishes the former as He pleases, while the latter is tied to man's will.

    2a) Hence, if someone stole money and repented, the sin of that theft is God's jurisdiction, but the money itself is the jurisdiction of the person it was taken from and repentance from such an act necessarily entails that the money is returned to its rightful owner. Hence, even though conversion wipes away sins, it does not wipe away the rights of others and even a convert, whose past sin are wiped cleaned in any and every religion that I know of, in Islam are nonetheless obliged to restore the rights that they wrongfully took from others, even if the moral culpability of the sin is forgiven through their act of conversion.

    2b) Therefore, in your opposition to my reply to you, it is implied that if someone was a theif and then converted to Christianity, it your assertion that they are under no obligation to return the money and property that they stole as apart of their repentance?

    Additionally, I don't read posts here often, so even though you may have quoted verses in the past to support your statements, I was not privy to them. If you are going to continue to go into completely irrelevant sectarian rants instead of having genuine academic discussions, then proceed as you have and please, ignore my intrusion. If all you can do is preach and are unable to hold an actual discussion with people who genuinely interested in dialog, your time will be better spent elsewhere.
    I'm sorry, but I'm not going through each of your questions...nor relaying the 200-300 posts previously made so you can catch up.

    The story of the woman in adultery powerfully introduces grace...undeserved, unmerited favour. The law demanded punishment, but Jesus broke through the law, and showed grace. This is the great difference between Christianity and all other faiths.

    On reaching common ground...how much common ground do you think Jesus reached with the Jewish heirarchy?

    Kind regards.

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    Veteran Member lumumba_s's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    Being that I only asked you two simple questions, one of which sought a simple yes or no answer, neither of which had anything to do with your past 200-300 posts, let it be a testimony to your sincerity. Have a nice day sir.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 26th July 2012 at 02:53.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

    Being that I only asked you two simple questions, one of which sought a simple yes or no answer, neither of which had anything to do with your past 200-300 posts, let it be a testimony to your sincerity and cowardice when confronted with any amount of substance. And for the record, what the law actually demanded was her accomplice in sin and actual evidence of the crime. We, on the other hand, do not need a apocryphal, interpolated story to demonstrate the grace and mercy which exists in our law. You are only fooling yourself. Have a nice day sir.
    Chill, friend...no need to get the huff. Your earlier post to me is also a testimony of your tone, so at least we're on level playing fields. But, I'll respect your reqest to field the q's....and apologise for not doing so earlier.

    1) Please explain to us how the story of the prostitute in the New Testament is in anyway related to the rights of God vis-a-vis the rights of men
    I'm ot sure how to answer this. You've introduced some text from Islam re the rights of men....so I can't comment about your theology. My point with the woman was to highlight the grace of the bible..the grace Jesus showed.

    2) Additionally: as we were speaking of the hypothetical, the Islamic stance on sin is that some sin are violations of God's commandments exclusively and others are violations of God's commandments vis-a-vis the rights of other people. God forgives or punishes the former as He pleases, while the latter is tied to man's will.
    With respect, this discussion was between you and backspace. I don't know about Mohammad's view on sin...but happy to teach/share on what Jesus said.

    2a) Hence, if someone stole money and repented, the sin of that theft is God's jurisdiction, but the money itself is the jurisdiction of the person it was taken from and repentance from such an act necessarily entails that the money is returned to its rightful owner. Hence, even though conversion wipes away sins, it does not wipe away the rights of others and even a convert, whose past sin are wiped cleaned in any and every religion that I know of, in Islam are nonetheless obliged to restore the rights that they wrongfully took from others, even if the moral culpability of the sin is forgiven through their act of conversion.
    As I said, I cannot comment on the rights of men. What I can comment on is the important issue...where we stand before God...righteous/saved or unrightious/condemned. The story of the woman and the theif on the cross are clear examples where God's grace extends to sinners....IRRESPECTIVE of this notion you are talking about re rights of men. Now, it would be foolish and obnoxious of me to claim we have no obgligations to fix what we have done to our fellow man. If I steal, then seek God's forgiveness...it follows that I seek to make it right with my brother. That is clear biblical teaching....but the issue is quite separate re being judivicial right before a holy God...vs correcting a sin with my brother.

    2b) Therefore, in your opposition to my reply to you, it is implied that if someone was a theif and then converted to Christianity, it your assertion that they are under no obligation to return the money and property that they stole as apart of their repentance?
    Answered above. But here's one back to you...which is the very heading of this thread. If Hitler was the theif on the cross...what would you say re his salvation?

    Kind regards.

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