Hitler in Heaven? Possibly says Christians.

[lumumba_s]

So, unless you want to go into an exhaustive discussion re the veracity of the NT... Perhaps you'd like to pick a key theological subject, eg law, atonement, Passover, blood, paridise/heaven, etc...?

As for the former, we have already done that and it goes no where. If you dismiss the interpolation of "he who has not sinned shall cast the first stone" into the text of the Bible, what is perhaps the clearest, mostly easily documented and demonstrated and benign of them all as "hear-say" as you already have when this point was brought up, it is a non-starter. As for the latter, we were doing that until you decided that it was uninteresting. The point about food, which all of a sudden you do not want to talk about, was precisely about the Law and the attitude of the original Christian community towards it. But you seem only willing to discuss generalities and not the specifics upon which those generalities should be based. One of your primary contentions with Islam is that we follow rules, but when we come to a clear example of the disciples following similar ones, demonstrated through your own text you claim to follow, you suddenly lose interest. Law, atonement, and Jesus' alleged divinity are all subjects that came up in this thread already. And Jesus not debating about the Scripture, given that he was a Jewish rabbi sent to the wayward "Lost Sheep", he was not speaking to people who were in opposition to it. If you really are sincere, pick any of the numerous points of contention I have already raised in this thread which you blatantly ignored, as we more or less are in agreement with the original hypothetical question.

[jude3]

As for the former, we have already done that and it goes no where. If you dismiss the interpolation of "he who has not sinned shall cast the first stone" into the text of the Bible, what is perhaps the clearest, mostly easily documented and demonstrated and benign of them all as "hear-say" as you already have when this point was brought up, it is a non-starter. As for the latter, we were doing that until you decided that it was uninteresting. The point about food, which all of a sudden you do not want to talk about, was precisely about the Law and the attitude of the original Christian community towards it. But you seem only willing to discuss generalities and not the specifics upon which those generalities should be based. One of your primary contentions with Islam is that we follow rules, but when we come to a clear example of the disciples following similar ones, demonstrated through your own text you claim to follow, you suddenly lose interest. Law, atonement, and Jesus' alleged divinity are all subjects that came up in this thread already. And Jesus not debating about the Scripture, given that he was a Jewish rabbi sent to the wayward "Lost Sheep", he was not speaking to people who were in opposition to it. If you really are sincere, pick any of the numerous points of contention I have already raised in this thread which you blatantly ignored, as we more or less are in agreement with the original hypothetical question.

With respect, I'm not sure what all of this means. I think you know from my last post I am genuine, and bring to engage. Can you clarify a subject that is real for us to start...and ALSO, consider, Where will it lead? Meaning, I hold the NT clearly points to the deity of Christ, and the blood atonement. At some point in the discussion, you will be confronted with this. You may clearly disagree...that's OK...but I'm just outlining the 'end point.'

To what degree are you willing/happy to engage on a discussion KNOWING this is the end point....?

Let me ask a 'simple' test question.

The NT CLEARLY states Jesus was crucified and he literally DIED.

This is an anathema to Islam.

So, how can we proceed if this is my ABSOLUTE END POINT, TOTALLY NON-NEGOIATBLE theology...?

Kind regards.

[lumumba_s]

My reply can be found here. From where I sit, we actually agree in principle (more or less) on the initial subject of this thread, so I would rather not derail it any further.

[jude3]

My reply can be found here. From where I sit, we actually agree in principle (more or less) on the initial subject of this thread, so I would rather not derail it any further.

I read the link...but it seemed like an exercise in script writing.

Let's return to the basics. I cannot and will not move beyond jesus being crucified and dying.

what is your position on this?

Please just use simple words...not essays.

Kind regards

[naderM]

His posts arent essays devoid of substance as you try and portray, but packed with extremely relevant arguments, the likes of those you were shown in the past by me and others, showing the disconnect between your sets of belief and what your scriptures say. Do you even realize how your dismissals compromise your evangelizing mission?

[lumumba_s]

I read the link...but it seemed like an exercise in script writing.

I did not see this before I posted my reply in the other thread I started. This is indeed very troubling for me, as it indicates that you refuse to engage at any serious level with a human being you claim to care for (I assume that you do not want me to go to Hell). When you call me a "script writer" and an "intellectual" simply because I perhaps put a little more thought and willfulness into my responses it makes it seem that you are simply dismissive of intelligent discourse. The reason why Jesus was so casually dismissive of his critics among the scribes and Pharisees was because of his superior understanding of the Scripture they all claimed to follow - not because of his simplicity - and his responses to them displayed a superior level of reasoning and deduction with which they could not argue.

You, on the other hand, seem to take pride in simplicity and primitive discourse. That does not bode well for you, nor for your mission to spread the Gospel. Why is it that Christians on this forum don't take the opportunity to pick apart my words when I so thoroughly put myself "out there"? If a condition of our exchange is my using "simple words" I am afraid we have hit a blockade. I can assure you that there are people who are much more eloquent and articulate than I. And given that I went to primary and secondary school in North Carolina (which ranked 48th out of 50th in public education at the time) and am (unfortunately) a college drop out, I actually take your derision as a compliment to my single working mother who was nonetheless the principle force behind my education. I previously thought you were being sarcastic, apparently you are not. So if you do not mind me asking, are you American and is English your native tongue?

I was attempting to return to basics, after getting this out of the way. My returning to the basics, however, does not mean that I will agree to "talk like a child, think like a child, and reason like a child" as "Paul" put so eloquently, since neither of us are children. If you really cannot understand my discourse, which I would assume would be proven to be middle-school level, I am afraid you are theman are more suited to one another (no offense to either of you).

And why would you reply to me here and not the new thread???

[jude3]

And why would you reply to me here and not the new thread???

I liked the heading of this thread as it prompts people to think about Jesus' redemption...eg saving a thief on the cross is the same as saving Hitler.

My native tongue is English...and I'm Australian.

Male.
48 years old.
Married, three kids.
Profession of Human Resources manager for major charity.
Master Commerce, Industrial Relations.
Hobbies: I build vintage hi fi horn speakers (Altec, JBL, Tannoy etc)

You?

[lumumba_s]

American, English, Married, Mental Health/Mental Retardation, 2 years of College and if I had a hobby it would be reading. I'm done with this thread.

[TG123]

I thought I'd continue the discussion on this topic in this section, rather in the Islamic discussion section where this issue arose.

In discussing the Biblical teachings of Hell, and whether backspace is right that the Bible does not say Hindus go to hell or whether jude's view is right that they do.. this point came up about whether Hitler could be in heaven.

If Hitler had sincerely accepted Jesus before he died (and assuming he didn't commit suicide), jude said that in Christianity Hitler would be saved and therefore be in Heaven. Gandhi, according to Christianity as jude understands it, IS definitely going to Hell.

Now, the Hitler possibly being in Heaven is an extreme example. However jude sincerely believes that a death bed conversion could have secured heaven for Hitler - but Gandhi is doomed.

Leaving Gandhi to one side, the issue with Hitler being in heaven raises the question of whether it makes sense that a belief can over-turn a pretty large list of sins (to put it diplomatically).

Islam, Judaism and pretty much most people around the world who believe in the afterlife would say that Hitler would suffer and not be rewarded, for his actions. That he was sorry for the crimes at the end is not enough to over-turn the calculated and deliberate crimes he committed.

I presume that even in Hinduism and Buddhism - he'd be punished for his crimes, even if he repented.

Is it only Pauline Christianity that therefore offers an immediate salvation for just believing, and not actually doing anything but believe?

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes, if Hitler repented before dying he is in heaven. What is wrong with that?

[DocW]

Yes, if Hitler repented before dying he is in heaven. What is wrong with that?

Does justice and fairness have any say in the matter. Vast number of innocent people die, the person responsible repents to God, God forgives, what about the dead victims and their rights? Islamic perspective about forgiveness as I understand is that we commit two types of sins, one against God and one against people. For example if I do not pray or fast, that is a sin towards God, I can repent it and God can forgive me. Albeit if I kill an innocent man, that is a sin against another human being, I have to seek God's forgiveness but in addition I am also accountable to that person and his family. In Islam as I understand it, justice remains one the most important attributes of God.

[TG123]

Does justice and fairness have any say in the matter. Vast number of innocent people die, the person responsible repents to God, God forgives, what about the dead victims and their rights? Islamic perspective about forgiveness as I understand is that we commit two types of sins, one against God and one against people. For example if I do not pray or fast, that is a sin towards God, I can repent it and God can forgive me. Albeit if I kill an innocent man, that is a sin against another human being, I have to seek God's forgiveness but in addition I am also accountable to that person and his family. In Islam as I understand it, justice remains one the most important attributes of God.

Does Islam not teach that God wipes a persons' slate clean after they become Muslim?

The Bible teaches that God is just, but also that His ways are not our ways. Our ideas of justice and mercy are limited, He on the other hand is all-knowing. How can a person who murdered another be accountable to the one he killed? His victim is already dead, is he not? Not even killing the murderer will change that.

If the dead are with God, can He not grant them justice and fairness in His great mercy, while at the same time showing mercy to the killer? Can anything be impossible for Him to do?

Salaam.

[Shafique]

Does Islam not teach that God wipes a persons' slate clean after they become Muslim?

Actually, no it doesn't.

Islam teaches that God is the sole judge on the day of judgement and that He will be just, and we are all at His mercy. This thread was to highlight the difference between a belief in an absolute guarantee of heaven for the hypothetical repenting Hitler vs the probably hell-bound Gandhi according to Christians who believe that accepting Christ guarantees heaven/salvation.

To my God-given logic, there seems to be an inherent injustice in the hypothetical I posed in the original post.

Islam only says a limited number of categories are promised heaven - eg Martyrs and children - the rest are at God's mercy. He may indeed grant Hitler pardon if the repentance is sincere - there is that possibility in Islam, but there is no guarantee.

Cheers,
Shafique

[Hawkeye]

Actually, no it doesn't.

Islam teaches that God is the sole judge on the day of judgement and that He will be just, and we are all at His mercy. This thread was to highlight the difference between a belief in an absolute guarantee of heaven for the hypothetical repenting Hitler vs the probably hell-bound Gandhi according to Christians who believe that accepting Christ guarantees heaven/salvation.

To my God-given logic, there seems to be an inherent injustice in the hypothetical I posed in the original post.

Islam only says a limited number of categories are promised heaven - eg Martyrs and children - the rest are at God's mercy. He may indeed grant Hitler pardon if the repentance is sincere - there is that possibility in Islam, but there is no guarantee.

Cheers,
Shafique

What does Islam promise for all those who never heard its message?

[DocW]

Does Islam not teach that God wipes a persons' slate clean after they become Muslim?

The Bible teaches that God is just, but also that His ways are not our ways. Our ideas of justice and mercy are limited, He on the other hand is all-knowing. How can a person who murdered another be accountable to the one he killed? His victim is already dead, is he not? Not even killing the murderer will change that.

If the dead are with God, can He not grant them justice and fairness in His great mercy, while at the same time showing mercy to the killer? Can anything be impossible for Him to do?

Salaam.

A person kills another guy deliberately, a family lost their bread earner, a wife lost her husband, young children lost their father, elderly parents lost their son. The murderer repents, Gods forgives him. So the family of that person got justice.

[TG123]

Actually, no it doesn't.

Islam teaches that God is the sole judge on the day of judgement and that He will be just, and we are all at His mercy. This thread was to highlight the difference between a belief in an absolute guarantee of heaven for the hypothetical repenting Hitler vs the probably hell-bound Gandhi according to Christians who believe that accepting Christ guarantees heaven/salvation.

To my God-given logic, there seems to be an inherent injustice in the hypothetical I posed in the original post.

Islam only says a limited number of categories are promised heaven - eg Martyrs and children - the rest are at God's mercy. He may indeed grant Hitler pardon if the repentance is sincere - there is that possibility in Islam, but there is no guarantee.

Cheers,
Shafique

So are you saying that a non-Muslim who puts his or her faith in God and accepts Islam may still end up in hell for eternity?