Who is Ibrahims Lord?

[jude3]

Shafique, I spotted quite a few threads where you should focus your efforts...as these call for opinions and ideas...and are mostly related to Muslims being confused or uncertain about Islamic practices. The stuff that relates to Jesus, the bible is probably better suited for others to discuss.

I see you're already helping one person who's confused about dropping a word from his prayer and him agonising whether or not his prayer is valid. Thanks for that help. (I'm glad our prayers to Jesus aren't so convulted and prone to error....phew.)

I've really been stewing over the issue of having a dog...or whether Camel meat is kosher, sorry, Halal.

Anyway, here are the other serious threads for you to focus on:

http://forums.understanding-islam.co...y-God-or-Devil

http://forums.understanding-islam.co...t-Iddat-Period

http://forums.understanding-islam.co...validate-salah

http://forums.understanding-islam.co...-their-dajjals

http://forums.understanding-islam.co...729-dog-as-pet

http://forums.understanding-islam.co...mel-meat-halal

http://forums.understanding-islam.co...-about-suicide

[Shafique]

Thank you Jude for taking the time to suggest how I spend my time. You will forgive me if I choose to make my own choices, won't you?

In the meantime, my question to backspace equally applies to you:

But can you make a fig tree obey your command and jump into the sea?

If you have faith, and believe in the Bible, you should be able to that. After all, you believe in talking donkeys.

Cheers,
Shafique

[jude3]

You will forgive me if I choose to make my own choices, won't you?

I forgive you...but it's not me you need to ask.

Jesus says -

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: for this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them, and their sins should be forgiven them.

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

I'm sure those people Jesus spoke to would have all sorts of explanations and defences....choices etc. But Jesus is rebuking them for their unbelief. You certainly have choices...but Jesus would say to you, you are CHOOSING not to believe...and that is sin...and you would be rebuked.

You might remember the story of the woman who had the issue of blood. After she touched Jesus' garment, he questioned her. What was his response? Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. Go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

You see, the healing makes no sense in any normal manner. There is no explanation apart from the miraculous. But the bigger issue (for you) is HOW the woman was healed. It was her faith/belief....she CHOSE to believe and have faith....in the unexplainable/miraculous. You say you choose...but you are ONLY choosing in the knowable...the normal...the secular....not the miraculous. Hence, Jesus' own words rebuke your position.

Jesus continues -

When Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying Thou Son of David, have mercy on us. When he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said, Yea, Lord. Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you. And their eyes were opened.

How were they healed? "According to your faith."

And again -

She said, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Jesus answered, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.

What does Jesus commend her for...which caused the healing of the daughter?

I am on this forum presenting Jesus...and his words. He is very stern, saying -

And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, in what place soever ye enter into a house, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go, and thence depart. And when ye come into a house, salute it. † And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.

He continues -

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace

I am here to confess Jesus as the Lord...the saviour and Messiah....I confess he cae from the Father as he said he did. Do you?

Here is a mighty challenge for you from Jesus.

Some pious people approached Jesus and said -

What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Note -

1. They thought they had to do works...piety and deeds etc. This is what they were used to. They asking him what sort of rituals etc that they need to do in order to be accepted of God.

2. Jesus does not talk about multiple works, rituals etc.

In your own words, what do you think Jesus is saying here?

Jesus calls you to accept him. He said -

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

As you can gather, I'm trying to exit from all discussions with you now. I trust these words of Jesus cause you to think a little more on who he is. The words he says cannot be reconciled with what Islam teaches...so it is a very big call you have to make about Him.

Kind regards.

[Shafique]

Thank you for respecting/forgiving me for making different choices from you.

I read your post carefully.

May I just clarify, first, whether you are saying that Jesus was speaking in parables (i.e. metaphorically) when he talked about commanding mountains to jump in the sea?

Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

If so, then this is a choice of interpretation that I fully agree with. We would both chuckle if anyone tried to convince us that this verse should be taken literally and that mountains (or fig-trees or mulberry trees) can be commanded to jump into the sea (and especially if they said, 'you don't have faith' 'don't you know God can do anything He wills' or even 'don't you believe the Bible!')

It would be good to find a common agreement on this verse.

(I'll tackle your other points one by one too, after we clear this up - and I will take the time to explain how I do reconcile Jesus' teachings with Islam. And I'll do it respectfully - but I will be explaining my understanding and logic.)

Cheers,
Shafique

[jude3]

Thank you for respecting/forgiving me for making different choices from you.

I read your post carefully.

May I just clarify, first, whether you are saying that Jesus was speaking in parables (i.e. metaphorically) when he talked about commanding mountains to jump in the sea?



If so, then this is a choice of interpretation that I fully agree with. We would both chuckle if anyone tried to convince us that this verse should be taken literally and that mountains (or fig-trees or mulberry trees) can be commanded to jump into the sea (and especially if they said, 'you don't have faith' 'don't you know God can do anything He wills' or even 'don't you believe the Bible!')

It would be good to find a common agreement on this verse.

(I'll tackle your other points one by one too, after we clear this up - and I will take the time to explain how I do reconcile Jesus' teachings with Islam. And I'll do it respectfully - but I will be explaining my understanding and logic.)

Cheers,
Shafique

With respect, I'll not proceed on the Mountain question. You would want me to answer a certain way, in order to prop up your view on how we look at scripture.

But, the words of Jesus quoted in those verses are clear...and I have asked you about them.

It boils down to our faith/trust/belief...just as Jesus calls us to.

Unless you completely rely on the argument that NONE of these verses can be trusted, then we really have nothing more to share.

Kind regards.

[Shafique]

With respect, I'll not proceed on the Mountain question. You would want me to answer a certain way, in order to prop up your view on how we look at scripture.

Why don't you try and answer the question in a way that explains your belief, but does not 'prop up' my 'view'?

But, the words of Jesus quoted in those verses are clear

Jesus' words about having faith and moving mountains are quite clear too. That is central to my point too.

It boils down to our faith/trust/belief.

Please clarify - what boils down to faith? Which verses are taken literally and which are viewed as either metaphorical or later additions?

If you are choosing which verses to agree with because of a prior belief - how can a person argue that they are getting guidance from that book? (Serious question.)

Cheers,
Shafique

[jude3]

You said the Jesus would be in the grave just like Jonah was in the fish....and because Jonah didn't die, enither would Jesus.

Jesus says -

Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. Luke 24:46-47

The Son of Man will be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him; and when He is killed, after three days He will rise. Mark 9:31

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the son of man be lifted up, and whoever believes in him may have eternal life. John 3:14-15

John 10:16-18 - "And I have other sheep who do not belong to this fold. I must lead these also, and they will hear my voice. So there will be one flock and one shepherd. This is the reason why the Father loves me - that I lay down my life, and I lay it down to take it up again! No one is taking it from me, but I lay it down of my own free will. I have the power to lay it down and I have the power to take it up again. This is an order that I have received from my Father."

John 12:23-26 - Jesus told them, "The time has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. I tell you truly that unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains a single grain of wheat; but if it does, it brings a good harvest.

John 12:27-28 - "Now comes my hour of heart-break, and what can I say, 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very purpose that I came to this hour. 'Father, honour your own name!'" At this there came a voice from Heaven, "I have honoured it and I will honour it again!"

Revelation 1:17-20 - When my eyes took in this sight I fell at his feet like a dead man. And then he [Jesus] placed his right hand upon me and said, "Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last, the living one. I am he who was dead, and now you see me alive for timeless ages! I

I appreciate you are trying to use logic and exactness to Jesus' first statement re Jonah....but I contend you are then ADDING a meaning re him not dying....especially in light of the other verses I quoted. (And there are quite a few more re him going to die...and dying.)

Sadly, you have also adopted this narrow approach (clinging to one verse and adding opinion while ignoring the multiple of CLEAR verses)to the matter of the Holy Spirit/Comforter.

How sad for those dsiciples to be told by Jesus that he was about to leave them...they are struck with grief...so Jesus starts to encourage them...and he says - 16:12-15 - "I have much more to tell you but you cannot bear it now. Yet when that one I have spoken to you about comes - the Spirit of truth - he will guide you into everything that is true.

So, according to you/Islam, for these grief stricken men...the holy spirit/comforter didn't come until 500 years later.

I'm sorry - but Jesus' words and the context resoundly removes any valditity to your argument.

I don't have questions to ask you...nor do I wish to engage...I'm merely pointing this out.

Here is a link showing all of Jesus' words. It's a good resource.

Kind regards.

[jude3]

Why don't you try and answer the question in a way that explains your belief, but does not 'prop up' my 'view'?

I have already said I'll not engage on this. The verses with Jesus' words need to be understood by you...try and reflect on them.

Please clarify - what boils down to faith? Which verses are taken literally and which are viewed as either metaphorical or later additions?

If you are choosing which verses to agree with because of a prior belief - how can a person argue that they are getting guidance from that book? (Serious question.)

Jesus claimed that all of the OT points to him...and he also claimed he would die for the sins of the world. He demonstrated hundreds of miracles for people to believe. So, if you have the faith to believe he is the Christ...the fulfillment of the prophecies...to believe he came from the Father as the Father's only begotten son, to believe in his miraculous power, to believe he forgave sins...then you're on the right track.

[Shafique]

I have already said I'll not engage on this. The verses with Jesus' words need to be understood by you...try and reflect on them.

I'm trying to establish the principle by which to understand what the Bible reports Jesus as saying.

To me, Jesus' words about moving mountains IS clear. It gives the reader a choice whether to take it literally or metaphorically.

Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

If we can at least agree on how we both choose to take this one, clear, example metaphorically - we can examine whether the other verses fit this criterion or whether they must be taken literally, and why.

You seem to be quoting your beliefs at me and asking me to believe in them and interpret the verses like you interpret them. That is putting the cart before the horse. Let us examine how to decide how to judge whether a verse can be interpreted literally or metaphorically first.

Explain to me the reason why the moving mountain verse, even though it is clear, you and I both take it to be metaphorical.

I promise, we can examine each and every other quotation you give. We can share our understanding of each verse and why we choose to understand/interpret it that way. But first let's see why we both think this clear verse should NOT be taken literally.

Cheers,
Shafique

[jude3]

No.

Work through those verses about jesus' death.

I contend that the issue of metaphorical bs literal is secondary.

The verses I quoted don't call for discernment about choice if language, they call for faith.

And, ad the issue of jesus' death is central to Christianity, it follows we should get this subject right before other issues.

Kind regards.

I'm trying to establish the principle by which to understand what the Bible reports Jesus as saying.

To me, Jesus' words about moving mountains IS clear. It gives the reader a choice whether to take it literally or metaphorically.



If we can at least agree on how we both choose to take this one, clear, example metaphorically - we can examine whether the other verses fit this criterion or whether they must be taken literally, and why.

You seem to be quoting your beliefs at me and asking me to believe in them and interpret the verses like you interpret them. That is putting the cart before the horse. Let us examine how to decide how to judge whether a verse can be interpreted literally or metaphorically first.

Explain to me the reason why the moving mountain verse, even though it is clear, you and I both take it to be metaphorical.

I promise, we can examine each and every other quotation you give. We can share our understanding of each verse and why we choose to understand/interpret it that way. But first let's see why we both think this clear verse should NOT be taken literally.

Cheers,
Shafique

[Shafique]

I am disappointed that you don't seem interested in an open and honest discussion.

I think I am quite clear on what you believe, and that you are basing it on the Biblical verses quoted. What I am not clear about is why you are so reluctant to explain to me WHY you have chosen to interpret these verses this way, and not how (say) unitarians interpret the same verses.

You obviously do interpret some verses metaphorically - but are seemingly very reluctant to explain why the moving mountain verse should be. It is a very clear verse and a devout believer could argue that God is all powerful and Jesus' words are categoric.

You appear to therefore choose which categoric verses to take literally and which you won't. Unless I understand why you make that choice, I can't really see the point in you just asking me to agree with your conclusions, and not the conclusions of Unitarian Christians.

For me it is simple. The moving mountain verse is taken metaphorically, because we know and experience the fact that Christians for the known history have not actually moved mountains (or mulberry trees) just by commanding. I.e. we use logic.

I am not aware of another verse of the Bible that says 'God cannot move mountains or mulberry trees when believers command them to' - so we can't choose another verse which contradicts this verse. We have to rely on logic.

Therefore, this principle is applied by you for Biblical verses. Am I incorrect?

Could it not just be the case that if you were born into a Roman Catholic family, a Unitarian family or even a Muslim family - you'd be viewing the same Biblical verses as Roman Catholics, Unitarians and Muslims do respectively?

It appears you are judging verses of the Bible based on what men have taught you, rather than judging the verses based on what is in there and logic. Haven't you argued that logic can't be used to determine faith? That sounds like something a man would teach, not an all-powerful, logical God. That's my belief.

Cheers,
Shafique

[jude3]

Why not test what is allegorical etc with those verses I cited re Jesus' death, plus the verses I cited re Jesus commenting on their faith that caused them to be cured...?

Jesus calls for faith above all things.

If there's something in those verses you simply cannot accept or don't understand, I'll happily engage.

Sorry you're disappointed....but my approach now is in direct response to how you've conducted yourself....it's quite common among other young debaters I've met.

Kind regards

I am disappointed that you don't seem interested in an open and honest discussion.

I think I am quite clear on what you believe, and that you are basing it on the Biblical verses quoted. What I am not clear about is why you are so reluctant to explain to me WHY you have chosen to interpret these verses this way, and not how (say) unitarians interpret the same verses.

You obviously do interpret some verses metaphorically - but are seemingly very reluctant to explain why the moving mountain verse should be. It is a very clear verse and a devout believer could argue that God is all powerful and Jesus' words are categoric.

You appear to therefore choose which categoric verses to take literally and which you won't. Unless I understand why you make that choice, I can't really see the point in you just asking me to agree with your conclusions, and not the conclusions of Unitarian Christians.

For me it is simple. The moving mountain verse is taken metaphorically, because we know and experience the fact that Christians for the known history have not actually moved mountains (or mulberry trees) just by commanding. I.e. we use logic.

I am not aware of another verse of the Bible that says 'God cannot move mountains or mulberry trees when believers command them to' - so we can't choose another verse which contradicts this verse. We have to rely on logic.

Therefore, this principle is applied by you for Biblical verses. Am I incorrect?

Could it not just be the case that if you were born into a Roman Catholic family, a Unitarian family or even a Muslim family - you'd be viewing the same Biblical verses as Roman Catholics, Unitarians and Muslims do respectively?

It appears you are judging verses of the Bible based on what men have taught you, rather than judging the verses based on what is in there and logic. Haven't you argued that logic can't be used to determine faith? That sounds like something a man would teach, not an all-powerful, logical God. That's my belief.

Cheers,
Shafique

[Shafique]

We can indeed check your interpretation of the verses vs those of Unitarian Christians and others.

However, I don't see why you won't first agree on the principles you use to determine which ones to view allegorically. The mountain verse is one that is clear, unambiguous, but clearly illogical in practice. It has to be interpreted allegorically because mountains don't move in practice.

I understand why you are reluctant to even admit this basic truth. I was looking to see whether you used some other criterion to reject a literal interpretation - other than pure logic/common sense. It can't be another verse of the Bible - so to my mind must just be logic/common sense.

I think you may fear that I'll say 'let's use this same methodology for other Biblical verses'. That would be sad if that is why you won't agree on the principles before we examine your interpretations.

Please clarify.

Cheers,
Shafique

[backspace]

But I see you're trying hard to mischaracterize my previous posts: how are talking angels/birds more logical/scientific than talking donkeys?

Is the question difficult?

[Shafique]

What part of my previous posts on this point confused you?

Post 80 from this thread:

It seems that your confusion is finally almost cleared up.

Yes, angels communicating with humans is indeed more logical than a belief in Talking Donkeys and that the earth stopped rotating.

What is un-scientific about dreams being used by God to communicate with Humans? You're confusing logic and science again - go back and re-read what I wrote. Given that you actually agree that God communicates via dreams, you're on thin ice here aren't you? Unless you're arguing that God communicating via dreams is illogical as real talking donkeys? If someone dreamed of a talking donkey -that isn't something we could dismiss.

But someone (like you) arguing a real donkey talked is asking us to believe in the illogical.

Now, how about explaining whether you can really order a mountain to jump into the sea?

Cheers,
Shafique