What is Miracle?

[real eslam]

Miracle (Mojeza) is the part and parcel of the history of Islam. Allah has sent messengers, in every society in every era according to His promise done, to direct man to the correct path, the right direction. The numbers of these messengers are approximately one lac and twenty four thousands or other opinion is two lac and twenty four thousands. Whenever a messenger comes to his community and , “Allah has sent me as messenger, obey my words, you will get the right direction”; then most of the peoples distrusted him and asked, “What is the proof that you are a messenger?”.
Very normal and logical question. Allah gives the messenger some special power to perform supernatural events for the reliability of the people. Allah Himself brings about those events but through the messengers. These very unusual events are known to us as the miracle (Mojeza). This means that, the unique and unearthly events Allah has brought about by the messengers for their confirmation are called the Miracle (Mojeza). Different messengers have different types of Miracle (Mojeza). Like: Solaiman (As.) understands the language of the angles, animals and birds; the stick of Moses (As.) turns a large and dangerous snake after throwing. The touch of Isa (As.) i.e. Christ cures the lepers and born blinds. He rises up a man died three days ago.

[real eslam]

When the messengers of Allah performed such supernatural events, it may be thought that all the people believed them as a Prophet. But the reality is that very few people believed them. It's the history. When Isa (As.) cured born blinds touching their eyes or rises up a man died three days ago, a few people of the Jews accepted Him as their Prophet. Most of the Jews denied Him. Abu Jahel, uncle of the last Prophet (Sm) asked Him to divide the moon into two pieces if he could to prove Himself as a Prophet of Allah. Prophet Mohammed (Sm) did so. History says that Abu Jahel declared Prophet (Sm) to be a magician denying Him as a Prophet.
Allah sent a prophet to a nation when they distorted their religion totally sent by their previous prophet. When the new prophet came to renovate the code of life (dwinul Islam, religion) they have to face people's opponency of people. But the greatest antithesis came from the scholars of the previous distorted religion who took it as the way of their bread. They did it as they could realize that if people accept the Prophet then their trade will be stopped. So they took a strong opposition against the Prophet. They leaded people against Him. When He show a supernatural event, miracle they told people that he was a magician.

[StopS]

When the messengers of Allah performed such supernatural events, it may be thought that all the people believed them as a Prophet. But the reality is that very few people believed them. It's the history. When Isa (As.) cured born blinds touching their eyes or rises up a man died three days ago, a few people of the Jews accepted Him as their Prophet. Most of the Jews denied Him. Abu Jahel, uncle of the last Prophet (Sm) asked Him to divide the moon into two pieces if he could to prove Himself as a Prophet of Allah. Prophet Mohammed (Sm) did so. History says that Abu Jahel declared Prophet (Sm) to be a magician denying Him as a Prophet.
Allah sent a prophet to a nation when they distorted their religion totally sent by their previous prophet. When the new prophet came to renovate the code of life (dwinul Islam, religion) they have to face people's opponency of people. But the greatest antithesis came from the scholars of the previous distorted religion who took it as the way of their bread. They did it as they could realize that if people accept the Prophet then their trade will be stopped. So they took a strong opposition against the Prophet. They leaded people against Him. When He show a supernatural event, miracle they told people that he was a magician.

So what do you call a miracle? What is your definition of a miracle?
Would the same event that appeared as a miracle in the old days still be considered a miracle today?
Can miracles still happen today? Do miracles still happen today?

[shaad_lko]

So what do you call a miracle? What is your definition of a miracle?

he's already stated taht in his post- is this all that you have to contribute on the forum ?

Would the same event that appeared as a miracle in the old days still be considered a miracle today?
Can miracles still happen today? Do miracles still happen today?

no dear, no Prophetic miracle can occur today since there are going to be no Prophets after Muhammad (s). Though of course, we have a living miracle with us in the form of the Quran.

[StopS]

he's already stated taht in his post- is this all that you have to contribute on the forum ?


no dear, no Prophetic miracle can occur today since there are going to be no Prophets after Muhammad (s). Though of course, we have a living miracle with us in the form of the Quran.

Are you now the spokesperson of "real eslam"?

Oh yes, I do believe it is important that people discussing a topic should know what it is they are discussing. Like here, the word miracle is used as though everyone understands this to be the same thing. If you don't care about what is being discussed and just ramble and waffle, that is your personal approach. I don't share that approach.

His reference goes to site which says that a miracle is "These events must be unlike the natural rule i.e. unearthly event (miracle) that make man understand, “He must is a messenger of Allah. Otherwise how he do it? It is completely impossible for a general man to serve it. So, his call is also true.” This is an explanation of a claim of prophethood. Not the definition of a miracle.


It might be cute that I am dear to you, but I prefer a more professional behaviour, if you don't mind. Again: you need to pay attention and be more precise. I thought you know this by now.

Did I say anywhere in my questions I want to know anything regarding "Prophetic miracles"??? "real eslam" says that "When He show a supernatural event, miracle they told people that he was a magician." What was this "Supernatural event, miracle"?

The entire story is that a long time ago god sent prophets. People accepted this as religion. People messed it up. The same god sent more prophets, who had to perform something to convince people they were really powerful and make people listen to them.

This does not fly with me. None of this can be demonstrated or reproduced. Nobody can back the claims up. Nobody can explain the process. All I am asked to do is keep quiet and just swallow everything, which I can't.

As you might know, 14:4 is still being discussed by Islamic scholars after 1400 years. The story mentioned by "real eslam" does not make sense and is full of holes, so I would want to discuss this with him, seeing that he brought it up, so I'd love to know what he thinks about this. He also makes it look as though Jesus and his tasks are historically accurate and that Muhammad was the one who split the moon. So I'd love to know whether there are Muslims who believe this to be literally true and acceptable.

[shaad_lko]

The entire story is that a long time ago god sent prophets. People accepted this as religion. People messed it up. The same god sent more prophets, who had to perform something to convince people they were really powerful and make people listen to them.

This does not fly with me. None of this can be demonstrated or reproduced. Nobody can back the claims up. Nobody can explain the process. All I am asked to do is keep quiet and just swallow everything, which I can't.

isnt that what a miracle is - it cannot be reproduced (like natural phenomenon) but an act of God which supersedes or sometimes suspends them. It is an altogether different matter if you deny the existence of God.

As you might know, 14:4 is still being discussed by Islamic scholars after 1400 years. The story mentioned by "real eslam" does not make sense and is full of holes, so I would want to discuss this with him, seeing that he brought it up, so I'd love to know what he thinks about this. He also makes it look as though Jesus and his tasks are historically accurate and that Muhammad was the one who split the moon. So I'd love to know whether there are Muslims who believe this to be literally true and acceptable.

Yes, of course we believe Jesus historically existed in person (I suppose that is what you mean by historically accurate)- anyone denying so is not even a Muslim in the first instance.. And you have no way of proving that he did not exist - why you cant even prove that the local grocery owner's great-grandparent of the 14th generation existed, can you ?

[Shafique]

My opinion is that I've not read anything in the Quran or Hadith which says that God's ways have changed since the coming of Islam. On the contrary, I read that God's ways don't change. This makes sense to me.

Looking back at history, priests/scholars/intellectuals have at various times argued that 'this time it is different' and that God no longer speaks, trust us, we know the truth etc.

There are famous Hadith which talk of the end of time when the Alim will be the worst of the people. As a result, I'm wary of beliefs/teachings that go against logic. I'll look for a logical explanation for something that may seem illogical to me.. and will be open enough to accept that my initial view is wrong.

However, on the issue of miracles, God revealing Himself to humans, communicating etc - I am of the opinion that God is still capable of communicating and showing His signs today as at any time in the past. Yes, there will be no new scriptural revelation - the Quran is final and complete, but God revealed Himself and sent revelations and visions and inspiration that were not part of the Quran in the past, to non-prophets. I believe that these forms of communications and signs are still viable, and I don't agree with those who (as I see it) seek to restrain God's deeds and communication.

Therefore for me, miracles can indeed happen today. Miracles for me are signs shown in favour of servants of God - and only have meaning in context. They rarely, in of themselves, convince people who don't believe - everyone viewing a miracle doesn't immediately accept them as positive signs or miracles.

Miracles are therefore natural phenomena that are used in specific and targetted ways by God to show specific signs in favour of His servants. Sometimes the miracles is in the timing - the parting of the reed sea to enable the Israelites to cross at just the right time, the quails in the desert etc.

I don't understand and therefore have some doubt over other miracles - such as fish and loaves seemingly multiplying and feeding thousands. If that occurred today and was documented, that would be something! As it is, I am open to the possibility that this may not have happened as reported. (Ditto water to wine).

Raising Lazarus, does have a plausible explanation - he wasn't really dead. Walking on water doesn't.

Anyway, just my personal thoughts on the matter..

Cheers,
Shafique

[jude3]

I don't understand and therefore have some doubt over other miracles - such as fish and loaves seemingly multiplying and feeding thousands. If that occurred today and was documented, that would be something! As it is, I am open to the possibility that this may not have happened as reported. (Ditto water to wine).

Raising Lazarus, does have a plausible explanation - he wasn't really dead. Walking on water doesn't.

So, you say you accept the bible...but now you say you don't accept the miracles...!?

When Jesus calmed the wild sea, what do you make of this....does Jesus have power over the elements?

I think you have decided Jesus is not God (or from God), therefore no miracle can be attributed to him.

Therefore, you are somewhat fraudulent in what you state about the bible. It is either total nonsense...or it is true. There's no fence sitting.

Oh, I asked you before - can you please list one miracle in the Koran which you believe...something that secular science cannot explain....? This is not a trick question...but a genuine inquiry.

[Shafique]

Jude - I believe that the Bible contains the word of God, but also contains the word of man - later additions and errors. The last few verses of Mark are a later addition, for example. There are errors and contradictions in the Bible.

Some modern day Christians also dispute the clear verses that blame the Jews for the killing of Jesus - giving excuses for why the authors blamed the Jews, and that nowadays it is better to blame the Romans.

Jude - do you believe the Bible is true when it says that the Jews are responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus (and that Pilate washed his hands of the deed and thus put the blame on the Jews?). Or do you share the view that the literal meaning of the Bible (as believed for over a millenium by Christians) should now be changed to a non-literal interpretation?

Given that Christians pick and choose which parts to believe and take literally (eg Paul saying that women should remain silent in Church and learn from their husbands - should that be taken literally or 'interpreted')?

So - yes, I do take the accounts in the Bible with a pinch of salt - knowing that some of the verses and accounts are questionable.

Jesus calming the sea I can believe took place - there is a natural law that God could have used to do this. However, the Bible saying that the earth stopped rotating to help Joshua - that I can't believe. Similarly walking on water or water to wine.

As for miracle in the Quran - there is a thread about the splitting of the moon. I've argued in that thread that science can explain how the moon appeared to be split - but that this doesn't lessen the miracle.

The biggest miracle to my mind is the name 'Quran' itself. It means 'that which is to be recited often' - and the Quran, by my estimation, is the most read scripture in the world - ever. It is the most recited revelation of all time. (It does not mean 'book' - but rather recitation - the Quran being a spoken revelation and is meant to be recited - and was preserved by people memorising the revelation word for word).

The opening 7 verses of the Quran are recited over 1 billion times each day (conservatively) - an observant Muslim will recite it at least 30 times a day, for example.

And each year since the revelations came to earth the Quran is recited more and more each year. It is indeed a revelation that is widely recited.

This prophecy in the name was made a millenium and a half ago in the desert of Arabia. God says this is His words and that He will protect it. To this day it is recited in full by millions each year, and with Ramadhan coming up, it will be recited in full from memory by millions in the coming month.

A truly great miracle - and ensures that the God's final testament - and one that Jesus prophecised about in the 'spirit of truth' verse, is preserved for eternity.

Cheers,
Shafique

[StopS]

isnt that what a miracle is - it cannot be reproduced (like natural phenomenon) but an act of God which supersedes or sometimes suspends them. It is an altogether different matter if you deny the existence of God.

Yes, of course we believe Jesus historically existed in person (I suppose that is what you mean by historically accurate)- anyone denying so is not even a Muslim in the first instance.. And you have no way of proving that he did not exist - why you cant even prove that the local grocery owner's great-grandparent of the 14th generation existed, can you ?

If I destroy a Ming vase, it can't be reproduced. Was that vase a miracle?
CERN has probably found evidence for the existence of a Higgs particle. Can that be reproduced? Was that a miracle?
A tornado just tore down main road. Can anyone reproduce this? Was this a miracle?

That is why I want a definition so that we all know what we are talking about.

There are some logical problems in your reply which I will quickly address:
"deny the existence of" - you can't deny the existence of a being, whose existence has not been proven. So you first prove something and then I choose whether I want to deny or accept what you have proven.
The historicity - or existence of Jesus as a real person - is not a necessity. It is the message and contents what is represented by that character that is important.
There is no evidence that would indicate Jesus as described in the NT and the Koran physically existed.
You can't prove a negative. You can't prove James Bond or Nessie do not exist. You can't prove there is no invisible elephant sitting on my shoulder?
Yes, you can prove the physical existence of other people, but that does not matter at all, because if you can't prove someone else existed, why would that automatically prove that Jesus existed?

[StopS]

Therefore for me, miracles can indeed happen today.

I think you are raising an important point here: miracles can happen today. A miracle for me now is a super-natural event inexplicable by natural means. If they can happen, why don't they? Why didn't they? We have a time period of a few hundred years, where miracles happened all the time - but never before and never after.

Muslims often say that the Koran is the last revelation and Muhammad was the last prophet and Smith, Hubbard, et all are false prophets, but they can't mention or exclude signs or miracles.

So people like my brother simply declares the heart condition of his wife disappearing a miracle. Yet this happens all the time. So he, a religious person, is grasping at straws because he would want miracles to happen and can't find any, so he makes them up.

[jude3]

Some modern day Christians also dispute the clear verses that blame the Jews for the killing of Jesus - giving excuses for why the authors blamed the Jews, and that nowadays it is better to blame the Romans.

Jude - do you believe the Bible is true when it says that the Jews are responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus (and that Pilate washed his hands of the deed and thus put the blame on the Jews?). Or do you share the view that the literal meaning of the Bible (as believed for over a millenium by Christians) should now be changed to a non-literal interpretation?

This is a strange question. I blame myself for the death of Jesus..because it was my sin that Jesus died. The Jewish leaders hated and rejected Christ...and this lead to his arrest. The Jews could not conduct capital punishment, so they sought help from the Romans. The Romans gave in.

So - blame is a very unusual question to ask.

I have no issue accepting that most of the Jewish people loved and accepted Jesus...but, the Jewish leadership rallied a mob against Jesus. Certainly this is how the scriptures outline the eevents...so I am OK with accepting that.

Given that Christians pick and choose which parts to believe and take literally (eg Paul saying that women should remain silent in Church and learn from their husbands - should that be taken literally or 'interpreted')?

So - yes, I do take the accounts in the Bible with a pinch of salt - knowing that some of the verses and accounts are questionable.

Jesus calming the sea I can believe took place - there is a natural law that God could have used to do this. However, the Bible saying that the earth stopped rotating to help Joshua - that I can't believe. Similarly walking on water or water to wine.

Well, I see the truth starting to come out. You say we pick and choose...but in the same breath you say you take things with a grain of salt (pick and choose).

If you accept Jesus calming the storm, how do you separate, say, the miracle of him walking on water?

You see, you can't use the preserved scriptures to suit your arguments on one hand (eg Jesus being a good and kind teacher), without ALL of the other parts of texts re his claims, miracles, powers etc. You are uncovered....sorry.

As for miracle in the Quran - there is a thread about the splitting of the moon. I've argued in that thread that science can explain how the moon appeared to be split - but that this doesn't lessen the miracle.

The biggest miracle to my mind is the name 'Quran' itself. It means 'that which is to be recited often' - and the Quran, by my estimation, is the most read scripture in the world - ever. It is the most recited revelation of all time. (It does not mean 'book' - but rather recitation - the Quran being a spoken revelation and is meant to be recited - and was preserved by people memorising the revelation word for word).

The opening 7 verses of the Quran are recited over 1 billion times each day (conservatively) - an observant Muslim will recite it at least 30 times a day, for example.

And each year since the revelations came to earth the Quran is recited more and more each year. It is indeed a revelation that is widely recited.

This prophecy in the name was made a millenium and a half ago in the desert of Arabia. God says this is His words and that He will protect it. To this day it is recited in full by millions each year, and with Ramadhan coming up, it will be recited in full from memory by millions in the coming month.

A truly great miracle - and ensures that the God's final testament - and one that Jesus prophecised about in the 'spirit of truth' verse, is preserved for eternity.

The Koran is nothing more than a hodge podge of plagerised words from Jewish and Christian sacred texts. Worse, it disparages Jews and Christians which has caused great horror and hardship for these people groups over the last centuries. The fact that it contradicts the bible in dozens of places proves it is not a miracle. God said he would preserve his word...so, if the bible was not preserved for 1300 years until the Koran came along to 'fix everything up, then God is a liar. Sorry, I do not accept that. While the bible was written mainly by eye witnesses of Jesus, then I have great confidence in that.

Kind regards.

[Shafique]

Jude, when you say you blame yourself for the crucifixion of Jesus - doesn't that mean that you reject what the Bible says?

You say:

This is a strange question. I blame myself for the death of Jesus..because it was my sin that Jesus died.

But the Bible says:

Matthew 27:23-26

Pilate asked, "Why do you want me to kill him? What wrong has he done?" But all the people shouted louder, "Kill him on a cross!" Pilate saw that he could do nothing to make the people change. And he saw that the people were becoming upset. So Pilate took some water and washed his hands so that all the people could see. Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death." Then Pilate freed Barabbas. Pilate told some soldiers to beat Jesus with whips. Then Pilate gave Jesus to the soldiers to be killed on a cross.

I Thessalonians 2:14-16, Paul writes,
. . . even as they have of the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets,

On choosing which accounts of the Bible to take literally and which accounts to question or look for an interpretation - I use logic. Hence why I can believe Jesus calming waters, but not the earth stopping rotating or Jesus walking on water. I don't believe God created logic and gave us that faculty only to have us believe in illogical things when it comes to spiritual matters. That is my personal opinion - and I particularly distrust any priest/scholar who says that God wants me to believe in the illogical.

And yes, as we know that parts of the Bible are additions - I do indeed pick and choose which parts to take literally. I say that you do the same too. However, your criteria for selecting verses to take literally are based on your prior beliefs - as are mine.

Jesus says God is greater than he is. Arius and other Christians took this to mean that Jesus is not wholly God - but was created by God. You disagree with this because of a prior belief. I reject the other verses which say that Jesus was not created - precisely because they contradict this verse and the later direct revelation from God that is the Quran. The fact that the Bible was canonised and texts selected by those with one theological view means that there is a natural bias in the Bible and that verses were inserted (end of Mark being only one such example).

I do not recognise your description of the Quran as the reality - and I read the Quran and know what it is about. I recommend you read what Christian scholars such as Professor Hans Kung who have studied the Quran have to say. I would not trust what anti-Muslim bloggers tell you the Quran is.

As I said, Jesus prophecised that the 'spirit of truth' will bring new messages from God - and would speak only what he would hear. This fits exactly with the Muhammad, pbuh, and the Quran. I've asked you who you think the prophecy applies to? Who has brought (or will bring?) the new message that God will send?

StopS - for me miracles are not super-natural, but rather natural phenomena that are exercised by God in such a way as to achieve a specific purpose that was pre-announced. Eg say someone who said God will destroy this town, but leave these 3 houses untouched, and then an earthquake, Tsunami or hurricane achieves exactly this result. Without the prophecy/claimant - it would just be a natural disaster, but the specific circumstances would make it a miracle. (This is a made up example)

Cheers,
Shafique

[backspace]

Am I the only one who thinks someone believing the ability to see in the future with the help of an other dimensional deity as scientifically explainable absurd?

I would not trust what anti-Muslim bloggers tell you the Quran is.

Right back at you. Someone who reads a "A Pocket Book of Biblical References" by Naeem Osman Memon should not be trusted on what the Bible says.

The fact that the Bible was canonised and texts selected by those with one theological view means that there is a natural bias in the Bible and that verses were inserted (end of Mark being only one such example).

Sorry, which other texts did Arius subscribe to?

[Shafique]

backspace does raise an interesting underlying point in his post above (he's been discussing issues with me a long time now, and found himself banned from another forum for his anti-Muslim hate posts).

The point is how DO we distinguish between someone making predictions in the name of a deity and just being delusional, from one that we can consider/believe to be a recipient of Divine revelation.

I'd say that the tests given in the Bible in Deut 18:20 are a great start. The person must make the prophecies in God's name and then they must come true. Seems logical to me.

David Ike famously claimed to be the second coming of Christ and on TV made prophecies of floods and earthquakes to come. Now, whilst there were indeed floods and earthquakes after his statement - no one really took him seriously, and IIRC he took back the claims. So the prophecies need to be a little more precise, I think, for it to be a miracle then.

As for the book of Biblical references he refers to - a quick look on Google reveals it to be a book with lists of Biblical verses categorised according to some topics.

Cheers,
Shafique