Who is the father of Jesus, if he is not the son of God or Joseph ?

[Shafique]

So backspace happily admits to believing in talking donkeys and not deluding himself into looking for scientific or logical explanations. Thanks for that.

Thanks also for sharing your view that Jesus' words about the Comforter being a 'he' who will recite what is revealed to him should be taken metaphorically. I'm choosing to not follow your belief on this point.

Sorry, but I don't believe in talking donkeys - and nothing you say will convince me it is logical to share your belief.

Cheers,
Shafique

[backspace]

No, I don't delude myself in believing talking angels are scientifically explainable or logical. Talking donkeys? I think someone needs to take a reading comprehension class.

Thanks also for sharing your view that Jesus' words about the Comforter being a 'he' who will recite what is revealed to him should be taken metaphorically.

I'm reading every verse on the comforter including ones you cited but forgot to address in full. The comforter will live forever, be invisible, rejected by mankind and be sent to the apostles.

If someone is jumping through hoops of logic it is those with wishful thinking that Muhammad must be the comforter as opposed to 1000's of others since Jesus.

But fundamentalism doesn't require rational thinking, just blind faith.

[Shafique]

Hey, you're free to believe in talking donkeys - just don't expect me to agree with you that this happened.

I just happen to disagree with which verses to take literally and which to interpret. You've made your choice based on a prior belief that Jesus is God, I happen to agree with the early Christians and Jewish Christians etc who chose to take Jesus literally when he said that God was greater than he was etc.

When we take Jesus literally - we do find that Muhammad, pbuh, fits the prophecy of the Spirit of Truth who will bring revelations that he hears. No gymnastics required - and certainly no shape-shifting required.

Cheers,
Shafique

[backspace]

When we take Jesus literally - we do find that Muhammad, pbuh, fits the prophecy of the Spirit of Truth who will bring revelations that he hears.

Sorry, taking Jesus literally means Muhammad could not be the comforter:

John 14:16 — And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth.

John 14:17 — But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 14:26 — But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

John 15:26 — When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

John 16:13 — But when he, the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth.

John 16:13 — He will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

John 16:14 — He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Muhammad was not sent to the apostles, so not ONE passage you can cite on the comforter can literally refer to Muhammad.

[Shafique]

I'm glad you're giving up on convincing me to believe in Talking Donkeys!

John 16:13 — But when he, the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth.

John 16:13 — He will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

John 16:14 — He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Thanks - this prophecy exactly applies to Muhammad, pbuh - especially 'he will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears'. That is the Quran.

Indeed, God had also prophecised he'd send a Prophet who would speak only what was revealed to him:

I will raise them a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Duet 18/18

And we know that 'that prophet' hadn't arrived at the time of Jesus and John.

Please explain to me how the Holy Spirit is a 'he' and how 'he' will only speak what he hears? We all agree that the comforter is hearing God's revelations - don't we?

I just am choosing not to interpret the other verses the way you are choosing to.

Cheers,
Shafique

[backspace]

Thanks - this prophecy exactly applies to Muhammad, pbuh

I guess you can't be bothered explaining how Muhammad "taught" the apostles of Jesus; otherwise, I'd be hard pressed seeing how the passages even remotely apply to Muhammad.

You should stop embarrassing anyone with some common sense and quote the passages in full to see who Jesus is speaking to.

Then again, this is the shoddy attempts at Biblical interpretation Muslim fundies apply to the Bible. So, what should I expect?

Indeed, God had also prophecised he'd send a Prophet who would speak only what was revealed to him:

God also says in the Torah that any one who changes his laws is a false prophet. Muhammad, therefore, is a false prophet according to the Bible.

And we know that 'that prophet' hadn't arrived at the time of Jesus and John.

There are plenty of prophets in the NT. Guess you're showing how little you actually know about the Bible.

Of course, the comforter is never identified as being a prophet. But why let basic facts get in the way of your fantasies?


Please explain to me how the Holy Spirit is a 'he' and how 'he' will only speak what he hears?

How is Allah a "he"? How is a talking angel?

Once you explain the above then you have your answer how a Holy Spirit can be a "he".

I just am choosing not to interpret the other verses the way you are choosing to.

Looks like you're not interpreting any verses literally.

[jude3]

When we take Jesus literally - we do find that Muhammad, pbuh, fits the prophecy of the Spirit of Truth who will bring revelations that he hears.

Sorry, taking Jesus literally means Muhammad could not be the comforter:

John 14:16 — And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth.

John 14:17 — But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 14:26 — But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

John 15:26 — When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

John 16:13 — But when he, the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth.

John 16:13 — He will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

John 16:14 — He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Muhammad was not sent to the apostles, so not ONE passage you can cite on the comforter can literally refer to Muhammad.

Thanks Backspace...these verses show clearly that this issue is not one about which verses we interpret as literal or figuratively. It is ALL about our faith/acceptance in the text, period. When we understand the unique and different nature of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit...ALL of Jesus' words fit in harmony.

I note with great interest, two defenses Shafique uses which trap her.

1. She is using a verse about Jesus praying to a FATHER...when Islam teaches there is no father God.
2. She is 'happy' to use the term "Father" for God, but NOT happy to accept Jesus' OWN WORDS that the Holy Spirit can be "He" or "Him"

Contradictions and convenience of the highest order.

Then, her ultimate defense is to rely on a few unknown and small groups of rebels and heretics post Jesus.

[Shafique]

Shafique is a 'he' btw. No need for any logical gymnastics or shape-shifting to make me a woman!

As I said, you guys choose which verses to take literally. I'm making different choices to you.

Muhammad, pbuh, fulfils the prophecy of Jesus and Moses of the Messenger of God they prophecised that would bring God's verbal revelation to mankind. Job done.

You can be like the Jews who refused to acknowledge God sent a Messiah to the Jews (and John the Baptist as the second coming of Elijah), or you can be like the Jews who accepted Jesus.

Cheers,
Shafique

[jude3]

Shafique, I'd like to exit this thread now.

All the best. I trust you have 'success' choosing which verses to accept or reject....you'll essentially need to be relying on yourself solely for the authority...which is exactly what Jesus says we should not/ cannot do. It's the opposite of faith...which you KNOW is what's called for.

Kind regards.

[Shafique]

Thank you for your views. It was interesting to read the choices you have made on which verses to interpret and compare them with my choices.

Cheers,
Shafique

[Shafique]

Thank you for your views. It was interesting to read the choices you have made on which verses to interpret and compare them with my choices.

Cheers,
Shafique

[backspace]

Thank you for your views. It was interesting to read the choices you have made on which verses to interpret and compare them with my choices.

What choices did he make? I thought he took every verse saying the comforter will be sent to the apostles literally. There's not much interpretation required there.

But I'm curious, how does the comforter (ignoring your mischaracterization of the verses) fit the profile of Muhammad better than Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (the founder of Ahmadiyyism)?

Weren't they both claiming to speak directly from God?

[Shafique]

The choice to believe that Holy Spirit is a shape shifting being that can be termed as 'yet to come' and still be among the people present when Jesus said the spirit of truth was 'yet to come'.

Also the choice that the comforter is not a prophet, a man.

Jude has similarly chosen to not take literally the verse where God tells men how to treat their second wife - saying somehow that this is unclear. That was a bizare choice for me.. but I guess when there are contradictions like this, one has to choose to reject contradictions which go against your chosen belief.

Cheers,
Shafique

[Moonlight]

Jude has similarly chosen to not take literally the verse where God tells men how to treat their second wife - saying somehow that this is unclear. That was a bizare choice for me.. but I guess when there are contradictions like this, one has to choose to reject contradictions which go against your chosen belief.

My mum does the same thing and she's a Jehovahs witness. No matter what verses you show them to prove that Jesus isn't an angel they show there "not take literally" card and think they have won the debate. Infact no matter what you show theses Christians they will always say "Satan is using you" (as my mum says lol)

Doesn't this prove that the bible is a book of confusion? I see black and you see White and no one really knows anything about the bible.

[Shafique]

Well Jude is quite convinced that the Roman Catholic's don't have the right interpretation of the Bible - and in all the posts seems to insist that we should take his/her (Jude which are you?) word as gospel (pun intended).

As there are JV, polygamist Christians, Unitarian Christians etc etc - it is quite clear that the Bible is indeed open to interpretation. And that is before you consider that the canonised texts were selected AFTER theological schisms had arisen and were compiled by the victors who then proceeded to burn the opposing texts.

Hence why God prophecised that He would send a later Messenger who would only recite what was revealed to him (and hence remove the issue of what men choose to write), and would guide people to the truth.

Cheers,
Shafique