Who is the father of Jesus, if he is not the son of God or Joseph ?

[Hannahh]

Oh I see, the "state of Israel".

That's what you and your kind is about.
,
Not only do I deny it pal, I can't wait to see it evaporate into the thin air from which it was derived.

Does that mean that you declare Jesus, SA your savior and that makes you Christian and anyone who wants to be a Jew declares Israel a state and that makes them Jewish? Which one is actually right then? How can people like me of mixed race, blood, ancestry decide!

So was this promise made to sic Abraham (pbuh and his progeny) to include the pre 1967 borders or no? Did this promise entail the security zone in South Lebanon from which Israel was kicked out by Hezbollah? How about Shebaa Farms? What did the covenant say about the land up to the Litani?

How was it that one Jew could lead the Jews but the other had to just lead the gentiles? Did he get demoted?

[jude3]

Luke made some errors with his sources. For sample Jesus is pose to be in the bloodline of david - Solomon. But luke put him with David - Nathan (who is David's third son)

Moonlight, do you believe this matter is open to review/study...? I ask because there is a valid explanation to the different lineages. Are you open to review it, or is your mind made up?
Kind regards.

[StopS]

If Jesus was the son of a woman, Mary, she provided half the chromosomes (haploid) in the ovum, the female cell.

We know that the default form for a human is female and the y-chromosome, which normally triggers the SRY-gene to change the female into a man, requires the 2nd cell, the male spermatozoon.

Jesus is generally described as a man, so where did the y-chromosome and the 2nd half of the DNA come from?

Miracle? Because nobody knows? Is there an explanation?

[jude3]

If you are a believer, where would you say the matter came from when god created the universe?

If Jesus was the son of a woman, Mary, she provided half the chromosomes (haploid) in the ovum, the female cell.

We know that the default form for a human is female and the y-chromosome, which normally triggers the SRY-gene to change the female into a man, requires the 2nd cell, the male spermatozoon.

Jesus is generally described as a man, so where did the y-chromosome and the 2nd half of the DNA come from?

Miracle? Because nobody knows? Is there an explanation?

[StopS]

If you are a believer, where would you say the matter came from when god created the universe?

Believer of what?

Why do you believe that a god physically created the Universe? Why not start a new thread covering this question?
Why do you believe that this creator required matter? Why not start a new thread covering this question?

Anyway, what on Earth does this have to do with the determination of where the DNA of Jesus came from?

[jude3]

Believer of what?

Why do you believe that a god physically created the Universe? Why not start a new thread covering this question?
Why do you believe that this creator required matter? Why not start a new thread covering this question?

Anyway, what on Earth does this have to do with the determination of where the DNA of Jesus came from?

My q was to try and have you determine that God is the creator of matter, DNA etc....therefore, to answer your questyion about the DNA of Jesus, it was God (the Holy Spirit) who provided the genetic code for Jesus (God in human form) to be born. This is what the text says.

Kind regards.

[StopS]

My q was to try and have you determine that God is the creator of matter, DNA etc....therefore, to answer your questyion about the DNA of Jesus, it was God (the Holy Spirit) who provided the genetic code for Jesus (God in human form) to be born. This is what the text says.

Kind regards.

Ok, fair enough. It would have been easier to ask a straight question than go this round-a-bout way.

No, we can't determine that any god created anything. Can you demonstrate the process, show the marks and explain the mistakes? No. What text mentions the DNA or genetic code of Jesus? Where does it say the holy spirit does anything like provide matter? Why does the Koran beg to differ by saying it was an angel who appeared as a man in every way and blew into her whatever?

If it was indeed "God (the Holy Spirit) who provided the genetic code for Jesus" how do you determine that a god in human form has DNA? What is the DNA of a god? Does the holy spirit have the same, identical DNA as Jesus and his dad?
In Islam Jesus physically existed, as a human, a man, with the full set of 23 chromosome pairs. And the y-chromosome.
According to you, did Jesus physically exist? As a human or a god? As a man or a god or a man-god? With human chromosomes or "different" chromosomes? Did he develop in the uterus like a human embryo and did the y-chromosome determine the gender by kicking off the testosterone production and the change from female to male?

[jude3]

Ok, fair enough. It would have been easier to ask a straight question than go this round-a-bout way.

No, we can't determine that any god created anything. Can you demonstrate the process, show the marks and explain the mistakes? No. What text mentions the DNA or genetic code of Jesus? Where does it say the holy spirit does anything like provide matter? Why does the Koran beg to differ by saying it was an angel who appeared as a man in every way and blew into her whatever?

If it was indeed "God (the Holy Spirit) who provided the genetic code for Jesus" how do you determine that a god in human form has DNA? What is the DNA of a god? Does the holy spirit have the same, identical DNA as Jesus and his dad?
In Islam Jesus physically existed, as a human, a man, with the full set of 23 chromosome pairs. And the y-chromosome.
According to you, did Jesus physically exist? As a human or a god? As a man or a god or a man-god? With human chromosomes or "different" chromosomes? Did he develop in the uterus like a human embryo and did the y-chromosome determine the gender by kicking off the testosterone production and the change from female to male?

Hi. I can't answer a lot of your why questions, sorry.

When the text says the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she conceived...I accept that text. I don't know all the whys/hows...but I do have faith to accept the text...just like you have faith to accept your Koranic text on other miracles.

Jesus is God because of this, plus the miracles he performed (like making the universe!), plus his claims.

Kind regards

[StopS]

Hi. I can't answer a lot of your why questions, sorry.

Does that surprise me?

When the text says the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she conceived...I accept that text. I don't know all the whys/hows...but I do have faith to accept the text...just like you have faith to accept your Koranic text on other miracles.

You claimed that "it was God (the Holy Spirit) who provided the genetic code for Jesus"
Now you reduce this to "came upon".
So there's no mention of DNA or genetics.

Jesus is God because of this, plus the miracles he performed (like making the universe!), plus his claims.

Kind regards

No, I have no faith in anything. I am a realist who demands an explanation for claims made by believers. And again: why don't you ask? I am not a Muslim, so the Koran is not my Koranic text.

The question where the DNA for Jesus came from, if he really existed physically, is just as much a Muslim question.

[jude3]

Does that surprise me?



You claimed that "it was God (the Holy Spirit) who provided the genetic code for Jesus"
Now you reduce this to "came upon".
So there's no mention of DNA or genetics.



No, I have no faith in anything. I am a realist who demands an explanation for claims made by believers. And again: why don't you ask? I am not a Muslim, so the Koran is not my Koranic text.

The question where the DNA for Jesus came from, if he really existed physically, is just as much a Muslim question.

Well, friend, not sure how we progress this. When the OT 'writes history in advance' (about Jesus - his birth, life, death etc), then I deduce this logically and reasonably that it far more than a human text. I then have great confidence in the text. As someone who is very interested in physics, logic, reason etc...I have no issue whatsoever with accepting that a supernatural explanation is required in this matter of Jesus' birth.

And when you say you have no faith in anything...I beg to differ. You have no faith in a deity, sure...but you have to put your confidence/trust/belief (call it whatever) in chance/randonmenss/chaos. You have to accept the fantastic improbabilites associated with complex structures coming from nothing, order from disorder. You have to go against the very scientific principles developed by Socrates and co that underpin our rules - something cannot come from nothing. I don't have the faith/confidence/belief to make thse great assumptions.

Also, if you say you have no faith in anything...you're standing apart from your mate, Carl Sagan, who said, 14.My faith is strong I don't need proofs, but every time a new fact comes along it simply confirms my faith. [Palmer Joss in Carl Sagan's Contact (New York: Pocket Books, 1985), p. 172.].

You gotta have faith...! Or, as Bob Dylan sang, 'you gotta serve some body...'

Kind regards.

[StopS]

Well, friend, not sure how we progress this. When the OT 'writes history in advance' (about Jesus - his birth, life, death etc), then I deduce this logically and reasonably that it far more than a human text. I then have great confidence in the text. As someone who is very interested in physics, logic, reason etc...I have no issue whatsoever with accepting that a supernatural explanation is required in this matter of Jesus' birth.

And when you say you have no faith in anything...I beg to differ. You have no faith in a deity, sure...but you have to put your confidence/trust/belief (call it whatever) in chance/randonmenss/chaos. You have to accept the fantastic improbabilites associated with complex structures coming from nothing, order from disorder. You have to go against the very scientific principles developed by Socrates and co that underpin our rules - something cannot come from nothing. I don't have the faith/confidence/belief to make thse great assumptions.

Also, if you say you have no faith in anything...you're standing apart from your mate, Carl Sagan, who said, 14.My faith is strong I don't need proofs, but every time a new fact comes along it simply confirms my faith. [Palmer Joss in Carl Sagan's Contact (New York: Pocket Books, 1985), p. 172.].

You gotta have faith...! Or, as Bob Dylan sang, 'you gotta serve some body...'

Kind regards.

Well, just say: I don't know.


No, the OT says nothing about any Jesus. This is your projection, not more, not less. Jesus is not Immanuel, is it? But I would imagine we are talking about the Islamic Jesus here, the prophet, not the man-god.

I have no idea of what "interested in physics, logic, reason etc" means, but I'm sure you can allocate it somehow.

No, you don't understand neither faith nor facts. You don't understand the concept of order or probability. You are deluded and have no understanding of what constitutes reality. You picked up some buzzwords and have no idea what they mean or how to interpret them. And what is actually quite funny: you have no idea of what Sagan was actually saying.
Yeah, that's what religion does to you.

[jude3]

Well, just say: I don't know.

But that's not so... I do know. It appears you don't know, because you are the one who asked the question about how this could be.

I also think it would good for you to look at some of the OT prohecies about Jesus. Of course, accepting who Jesus is a very personal thing. I see from your tone on this thread and elsewehere you're a pretty strung up sort of guy....like, you enjoy a fight etc. That's OK...you're entitled to be whatever you want.

Normally, when I see non believers on sites like this, it comes down to intellectualisim, pride etc. People love to debate...to get a few kicks here and there. You're in that camp. I suspect there's some anger going on deep down.

Oh, given your interest in dna etc...what do you think of Frances Collins (lead scientist of the human genome project) and his detailed analysis into the resurrection of Jesus...and his subsequent decision to accept the evidence/claims of Jesus...? Like Newton, Pascal, Boyle and many other science greats, Collins must be a deluded fool to accept any of this bible nonesense...!?

[StopS]

But that's not so... I do know. It appears you don't know, because you are the one who asked the question about how this could be.

OK, then if you do know:
What is the DNA of a god? Does the holy spirit have the same, identical DNA as Jesus and his dad?

I also think it would good for you to look at some of the OT prohecies about Jesus. Of course, accepting who Jesus is a very personal thing. I see from your tone on this thread and elsewehere you're a pretty strung up sort of guy....like, you enjoy a fight etc. That's OK...you're entitled to be whatever you want.

Normally, when I see non believers on sites like this, it comes down to intellectualisim, pride etc. People love to debate...to get a few kicks here and there. You're in that camp. I suspect there's some anger going on deep down.

Oh, given your interest in dna etc...what do you think of Frances Collins (lead scientist of the human genome project) and his detailed analysis into the resurrection of Jesus...and his subsequent decision to accept the evidence/claims of Jesus...? Like Newton, Pascal, Boyle and many other science greats, Collins must be a deluded fool to accept any of this bible nonesense...!?

What are you on about? What prophecy? Where in the OT does it say: I invented the funny original sin thingy and that's why I will sacrifice myself to myself by killing myself for 2 or 3 days and then rise up to myself to sit next to myself? I will call myself Jesus and you need to believe all this.

Me? Strung up? Nah, I'm very relaxed. Anger? For what? It's hardly worth it.
I just get irritated when people come up with really bad arguments and really desperate strawmen like dropping names such as Collins or Newton. And if you insist: yes, Collins is a deluded fool. He believes Jesus physically existed.

[Hannahh]

The question is unanswerable because DNA methodology did not exist during his presence here on earth. When he returns, you might ask again but for now no one can answer this question for you.

He did not reproduce to our knowledge though which would be one detail that might be contradictory to absence of the Y chromosome which is necessary for typical human reproduction (not so in bees and ants though who are haploids). It is somewhat disrespectful of the prophet to suggest a possiblity however it is known that some children are born without having any Y chromosomes or who have a variety of mutations of the typical XY/XX human sex gene.

It is important to know though that we don't get to know EVERYTHING and indeed some of us don't care to know ANYTHING anyway and even if you prove to them SOMETHING they reject it anyway.

And you are one of those no doubt so why should we bother explaining? (an answer is requested here)

[jude3]

OK, then if you do know:
What is the DNA of a god? Does the holy spirit have the same, identical DNA as Jesus and his dad?

When I said I know..I mean I know it was God's Holy Spirit that caused the conception. DNA is information...so a powerful deity can quite easily provide the necessary information into a female egg in order for the egg to be fertilised.

But your tone indicate you're not genuine about the subject...but a stirrer....so you don't really deserve to be answered. A serious inquirer may want to understand the nature of Jesus vs the Father. I could help there.

What are you on about? What prophecy? Where in the OT does it say: I invented the funny original sin thingy and that's why I will sacrifice myself to myself by killing myself for 2 or 3 days and then rise up to myself to sit next to myself? I will call myself Jesus and you need to believe all this.

These questions can be reasonably understood when you understand the scriptures in totality. They are an integrated message system....providing an answer to the redemptive plan of God for the sin of mankind. Jesus is the key.

Me? Strung up? Nah, I'm very relaxed. Anger? For what? It's hardly worth it.
I just get irritated when people come up with really bad arguments and really desperate strawmen like dropping names such as Collins or Newton. And if you insist: yes, Collins is a deluded fool. He believes Jesus physically existed.

Sorry, I probably used the wrong word, angry. But you are irritated...so I was right in what I thought of you.

Try peppermint tea....or read a Psalm.

So, the years of investigative work Collins did to determine not only Christ exsted but was resurrected was unscientific, not methodical, etc...? Remember, he did all of this BEFORE becoming a believer. He was known the world over as one of the most diligent and methodical scientists ever. I think it's interesting you are so quick to dismiss him. You'd have a modicome of creditbility if you could demonstrate the extent of your study into the subject vs just making opinions and assertions.

Anyway - I think this conversation is pretty close to an end.

Out of curisity - can you tell me a little about yourself.

Why are you on an Islamic forum?
How old are you?
What profession?
Married/kids?
Where do you live?

For me:

Why are you on an Islamic forum? As a follower of Jesus, I wish to teach about him...share my story....help Muslims understand Jesus is God and saviour.
How old are you? I'm 49.
What profession? Personnel Management for a large charity alchohol, disability, age care etc.
Married/kids? Married with 3 kids.
Where do you live? Sydney.

Kind regards.