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Thread: is abortion ok in islam

  1. #16
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    Default Re: is abortion ok in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Whether or not abortion constitutes murder is dependent upon the age of development in the womb. Murder is the taking of a life and the sources of Islamic law do not argue for life at inception. That being said, most scholars would argue that under normal circumstances, it is impermissible to disturb an implanted fetus. However, there are situations where doing so would be allowed and such matters should be determined by lawyers and jurists with the consultation of medical doctors.
    It has nothing to do with the stage of development; life starts at the very moment of conception! Since life starts then and God is the author of life, no one has the right to terminate it, only God does period! If the mother is danger of the pregnancy then they can pray and seek the Lord about ending the pregnancy and for no other reason.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: is abortion ok in islam

    That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But the question was about abortion in Islam, and in that, your answer is quite annoying and the very definition of trolling. And there is not a single Biblical verse which says that life begins at conception. Rather, it is a precautionary stance based entirely in conjecture in response to the assertion that life began at birth, the implications of that position for a child in the third trimester which has clear signs of biological life being traumatic. Whether or not life begins at conception is a debatable (and it would seem to me that the Old Testament actually argues against the now popular position) but it is only with the rise of Evangelicalism being joined with Conservative politics and championing the "family values agenda" that an absolutist stance became viewed as "Biblical". And from the "Islamic" standpoint, when life is believed to begin is not the basis of the default prohibition of abortion, for as I said, the vast majority of scholars deem it impermissible to disturb an implanted embryo without a sufficient reason.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 7th January 2014 at 06:42.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: is abortion ok in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But the question was about abortion in Islam, and in that, your answer is quite annoying and the very definition of trolling..
    No, it is not my opinion, it is truth that annoys you. It is true that "There is a tremendous consensus in the scientific community about when life begins. This is hardly controversial. According to the elementary definition of life, life begins at fertilization, when a sperm unites with an oocyte. From this moment, the being is highly organized, has the ability to acquire materials and energy, has the ability to respond to his or her environment, has the ability to adapt, and has the ability to reproduce (the cells divide, then divide again, etc., and barring pathology and pending reproductive maturity has the potential to reproduce other members of the species). Non-living things do not do these things. Even before the mother is aware that she is pregnant, a distinct, unique life has begun his or her existence inside her.

    Furthermore, that life is unquestionably human. A human being is a member of the species homo sapiens. Human beings are products of conception, which is when a human male sperm unites with a human female oocyte (egg). When humans procreate, they don't make non-humans like slugs, monkeys, cactuses, bacteria, or any such thing. Empirically-verifiable proof is as close as your nearest abortion clinic: send a sample of an aborted fetus to a laboratory and have them test the DNA to see if its human or not." Genetically, a new human being comes into existence from the earliest moment of conception. This is an elementary fact. Abortionist claim it is controversial so that can abort for a miserable price.


    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    And there is not a single Biblical verse which says that life begins at conception. Rather, it is a precautionary stance based entirely in conjecture in response to the assertion that life began at birth, the implications of that position for a child in the third trimester which has clear signs of biological life being traumatic. .
    The Scripture states don't be as an ox that needs to be led by a bit and bridle. You are simply confusing facts for conjecture and trolling for the love of truth!

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Whether or not life begins at conception is a debatable (and it would seem to me that the Old Testament actually argues against the now popular position) but it is only with the rise of Evangelicalism being joined with Conservative politics and championing the "family values agenda" that an absolutist stance became viewed as "Biblical"..
    I agree with Dr. Jerome: "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion ... it is plain experimental evidence." The "Father of Modern Genetics" Dr. Jerome Lejeune, Univ. of Descarte, Paris.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    And from the "Islamic" standpoint, when life is believed to begin is not the basis of the default prohibition of abortion, for as I said, the vast majority of scholars deem it impermissible to disturb an implanted embryo without a sufficient reason.
    I don't doubt this is an Islamic standpoint. I doubt and disagree with your point of view that there is no life at conception. Maybe if you come out of your deep denial, you won't find this message annoying, and just because you might be able to find some that may agree with you among the deniers of fact and life, that doesn't make you right!

    Best regards
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  4. #19
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    Default Re: is abortion ok in islam

    There is no fact of human life at conception, but biological life, which is not the same thing. Hence, many Christians and Jews have historically deemed life to begin at birth with the child first breathes, while the militant assertion of life at conception is a contemporary development. When the claim of murder is brought into the equation, we are not talking about "elementary definitions of life", but when a fetus is considered to be a human being and whether or not it is Biblically justified for women to languish away in prison for murder in Florida and Tennessee. To argue that at the cellular level, in the early development that the biological material is a person according to the "Pro-Life" definition is most certainly not founded in observation or experience. And that this biological life will eventually develop into a human being is why Islam still considers it impermissible to disrupt the process without a legitimate reason. On the other hand, the Bible is silent on the specific point in which the spirit is breathed into the body and if anything, there are verses which have historically been understood to and clearly argue exactly the opposite of what is now being proposed. So if you want to argue that life begins at conception, then by all means do so, but please don't claim it on Divine authority.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: is abortion ok in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    There is no fact of human life at conception, but biological life, which is not the same thing. Hence, many Christians and Jews have historically deemed life to begin at birth with the child first breathes, while the militant assertion of life at conception is a contemporary development. When the claim of murder is brought into the equation, we are not talking about "elementary definitions of life", but when a fetus is considered to be a human being and whether or not it is Biblically justified for women to languish away in prison for murder in Florida and Tennessee. To argue that at the cellular level, in the early development that the biological material is a person according to the "Pro-Life" definition is most certainly not founded in observation or experience. And that this biological life will eventually develop into a human being is why Islam still considers it impermissible to disrupt the process without a legitimate reason. On the other hand, the Bible is silent on the specific point in which the spirit is breathed into the body and if anything, there are verses which have historically been understood to and clearly argue exactly the opposite of what is now being proposed. So if you want to argue that life begins at conception, then by all means do so, but please don't claim it on Divine authority.
    Human life is biological life. Do you know of any humans that gave birth to none human life form? Just because the child wasn't born doesn't mean the conception isn't life and human. The child didn't get a chance to develop relationships or speak for himself, but there is no doubt about conception being the beginning of human life. No one has the right to murder that life created by God.

    If I want to argue that life begins at conception don't claim it on Divine authority? Then neither should you argue or hint to that life doesn't begin a conception on divine authority!
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  6. #21
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    Default Re: is abortion ok in islam

    Again, there is a difference between biological life and human life when you speak of life in the context it is meant when it comes to laws relegating abortion. To deny that is to simply deny nuance. When the "breath of life" enters into the fetus is not something that can be ascertained from Biblical Scripture and the "breath of life" is historically when Christians believed life began. Hence, Biblical theologians in the past either remained silent about the specifics or determined it to be when the child takes it first breath. But because abortion began to be advocated a form of birth control, Christians of good faith naturally modified their previous position and began arguing against such permissive laws. However, in regard to the issue of life, if the Bible was so clear, there would never have been any disagreement on the matter. As for Divine authority, the prophets speak with Divine authority by definition and the Islamic position is based on the articulation of one of God's messengers (peace and blessings be upon them all). And the point where my annoyance comes in with your "message" is that you are essentially objecting, though you agree with the ruling, based on a position which you have taken with no clear Biblical authority for seemingly no other reason than it provides a chance to insert your Christian dogma into a discussion in which it was not sought, like most of the other threads you have "participated" in. If you want a discussion, there is nothing stopping you from asking us like a normal, forum participant.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 7th January 2014 at 09:04.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: is abortion ok in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Again, there is a difference between biological life and human life when you speak of life in the context it is meant when it comes to laws relegating abortion. To deny that is to simply deny nuance. When the "breath of life" enters into the fetus is not something that can be ascertained from Biblical Scripture and the "breath of life" is historically when Christians believed life began. Hence, Biblical theologians in the past either remained silent about the specifics or determined it to be when the child takes it first breath. But because abortion began to be advocated a form of birth control, Christians of good faith naturally modified their previous position and began arguing against such permissive laws. However, in regard to the issue of life, if the Bible was so clear, there would never have been any disagreement on the matter. As for Divine authority, the prophets speak with Divine authority by definition and the Islamic position is based on the articulation of one of God's messengers (peace and blessings be upon them all). And the point where my annoyance comes in with your "message" is that you are essentially objecting, though you agree with the ruling, based on a position which you have taken with no clear Biblical authority for seemingly no other reason than it provides a chance to insert your Christian dogma into a discussion in which it was not sought, like most of the other threads you have "participated" in. If you want a discussion, there is nothing stopping you from asking us like a normal, forum participant.
    So, now I am not a normal forum participate, lol. Describe normal. IMO, you are saying a lot of nothing here. Saying human life and human biological life is not the same is, in short, ridiculous nonsense. Only God can create human biological life at any stage; so, what and who is man to say we can snuff out that light, because we call it a fetus instead of an unborn child. It is nothing short of deception and a brainwashing of the people to receive gain for a miserable price. Any true God fearing person knows this in their heart of hearts. They must callous their conscious to ignore this truth or justify a discrepancy in their religion.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  8. #23
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    Default Re: is abortion ok in islam

    Normal in the respect of people who contribute positively to discussions in relevant fashions, not people who troll posts which are long dead in an attempt to insert their opinion. You saying that abortion is not allowed in Christianity as well is relevant. Your critique of my statement based upon religious sentiments that we do not share is not.. And that you still pretend as if I said anything other than abortion being impermissible as the basis of our legal ruling is shameful. After the implantation of the fetus to the womb, abortion is impermissible according to the majority of scholars and if it happens, unless extenuating circumstances exists, requires repentance to God for disrupting the process of life. At the early stages, it simply is not considered murder, but sinful nonetheless. "Murder" is a legal category which is punishable by either death or incarceration. So are you willing to say that anyone who performs an abortion when it is not essential to saving the life of the mother deserves the standard sentence given to those who commit first degree murder? And if you speak of discrepancy, then you need to explain why Exodus 21:22-24 clearly states that if a pregnant woman is assaulted and a miscarriage results, the only "harm" that is considered is the harm to the mother and the only life that the verse is concerned with is the life of the woman if she is killed as a result of the assault.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 7th January 2014 at 21:06.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: is abortion ok in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Normal in the respect of people who contribute positively to discussions in relevant fashions, not people who troll posts which are long dead in an attempt to insert their opinion..
    This provoking comment of yours was totally unnecessary and contributes nothing constructive whatsoever!

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    You saying that abortion is not allowed in Christianity as well is relevant. .
    This is already known to you and most of the world's populace.
    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Your critique of my statement based upon religious sentiments that we do not share is not...
    You mean you don't share that God is the creator of the embryological process from the very start? I simply state that who is man to terminate what only God can create and that is life at the very beginning. If you say you choose not to call it murder that is fine. I wouldn't disagree with you if you call it sin and wrong; unless of course it is to save the life of the mother.
    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    And that you still pretend as if I said anything other than abortion being impermissible as the basis of our legal ruling is shameful..
    I have pretended nothing and said nothing of the sought.
    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    After the implantation of the fetus to the womb, abortion is impermissible according to the majority of scholars and if it happens, unless extenuating circumstances exists, requires repentance to God for disrupting the process of life..
    I don't live my life according to scholars nor do I disagree with them on this issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post

    At the early stages, it simply is not considered murder, but sinful nonetheless. .
    That is fine. Call it sin. I am fine with that as well. The point I was trying to make is no matter what you call it murder or sin, it is wrong and against God!
    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    "Murder" is a legal category which is punishable by either death or incarceration. So are you willing to say that anyone who performs an abortion when it is not essential to saving the life of the mother deserves the standard sentence given to those who commit first degree murder? And if you speak of discrepancy, then you need to explain why Exodus 21:22-24 clearly states that if a pregnant woman is assaulted and a miscarriage results, the only "harm" that is considered is the harm to the mother and the only life that the verse is concerned with is the life of the woman if she is killed as a result of the assault.
    We don't need to go there; we know that abortion is not against the law in many places. Most people will forgive people for committing abortion to cover for the sins of their life or the rape in their life, but they will be accountable to God every time they take a life regardless of how young that life is!

    peace
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  10. #25
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    Default Re: is abortion ok in islam

    No, we do need to go there, if you are going to assert so absolutely that life begins at inception and thus, abortion is entails murder, the logical consequences being that people who do it are guilty of murder and for such reasons, there are women currently languishing in jail for in certain states in the South, many of whom were charged with manslaughter for having a miscarriage that the DA suspected was intentional. This is not a theoretical issue, but one that has practical consequences when policies are formed around such assertions.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: is abortion ok in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    No, we do need to go there, if you are going to assert so absolutely that life begins at inception and thus, abortion is entails murder, the logical consequences being that people who do it are guilty of murder and for such reasons, there are women currently languishing in jail for in certain states in the South, many of whom were charged with manslaughter for having a miscarriage that the DA suspected was intentional. This is not a theoretical issue, but one that has practical consequences when policies are formed around such assertions.
    I have never heard of anyone being tried for murder for having a miscarriage nor do I believe anyone should be tried for murder for a miscarriage, but abortion laws have allowed people to go as far as have partial birth abortions which is just as evil as terminating the life at conception unless it is to save the life of the mother. I think we are done with this now!
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: is abortion ok in islam

    And most laws which allow partial birth abortions have been outlawed unless it is necessary to save the life of the mother. On the other hand, there are people of your religious persuasion, who argue based on the same grounds as you, that abortions should not even be allowed if the mother's life is in danger. Extremes on both sides are abhorrent and I do not know where you live, but it is becoming more and more of an issue as more and more radical Conservatives are creating legislation in the United State: Criminalizing Pregnancy.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 7th January 2014 at 23:01.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: is abortion ok in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    And most laws which allow partial birth abortions have been outlawed unless it is necessary to save the life of the mother. On the other hand, there are people of your religious persuasion, who argue based on the same grounds as you, that abortions should not even be allowed if the mother's life is in danger. Extremes on both sides are abhorrent and I do not know where you live, but it is becoming more and more of an issue as more and more radical Conservatives are creating legislation in the United State: Criminalizing Pregnancy.
    I am not of that religious persuasion you mentioned. You are putting words in my mouth
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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