the context of some verses

[patrick]

If these verses were meant to be concerned about self defence, why doesn't it say something like - fight those that fight you? Instead it talks about attacking the non-believers. No mention of "mischief".

Also why isn't there a context of a time limit?

009.028 O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
009.029 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
009.030 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
009.031 They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
009.032 Fain would they extinguish Allah's light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
009.033 It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

Historical context: It was decided that non-muslims not be allowed in Mecca. People were worried that money flow would decrease so jizya was initated.

[ProphetofTolerance]

If these verses were meant to be concerned about self defence

That's only an argument Muslims can make to those ignorant of Koran.

Koran explicitly calls for warfare against those who practice usury. Usury might be nasty, but there's no element of self defense in attacking people who practice it.

Koran 2:278-279 - O believers, fear you God; and give up the usury that is outstanding, if you are believers.
But if you do not, then take notice that God shall war with you, and His Messenger; yet if you repent, you shall have your principal, unwronging and unwronged.

Muslims are to wage war against banks according to this verse.
That includes Islamic banks which practice usury as well.

[shaad_lko]

That's only an argument Muslims can make to those ignorant of Koran.

Koran explicitly calls for warfare against those who practice usury. Usury might be nasty, but there's no element of self defense in attacking people who practice it.



Muslims are to wage war against banks according to this verse.
That includes Islamic banks which practice usury as well.

patently absurd argument considering taht the verse is warning believers..

[ProphetofTolerance]

And yet it doesn't change the substance of my post: there is no self-defense in waging war against usurers.

[shaad_lko]

And yet it doesn't change the substance of my post: there is no self-defense in waging war against usurers.

Usury is a social evil - every believer is supposed to refrain from it (and that includes all those who believe in the religion of Abraham). However, the substance of your post remains flawed as the verse in question doesnt address the believers to wage war against banks, so it was a poor understanding on your part.

[ProphetofTolerance]

The Koran calls for war against those who practice usury. All banks, including Islamic, practice usury. Therefore, the Koran can be read as calling for war against modern banks because they practice usury.

[shaad_lko]

The Koran calls for war against those who practice usury. All banks, including Islamic, practice usury. Therefore, the Koran can be read as calling for war against modern banks because they practice usury.

it doesnt call for war - you cant even comprehend a simple sentence in English. It says take note of war from God, which as is clear to anyone with a small amount of gray matter is an outright moral commandment.

[ProphetofTolerance]

Yeah, right. How could I possibly misinterpret Muhammad waging war against usurers as Muhammad waging war against usurers?

Speaking of grey matter, found the time in history where the Koran eradicated slavery yet?

[johan]

The Koran calls for war against those who practice usury. All banks, including Islamic, practice usury. Therefore, the Koran can be read as calling for war against modern banks because they practice usury.

Usury?
The question would be, is usury the correct interpretation for riba?
If 7adeeth were the basis, one would come to that conclusion, but that's not always the smartest choice..

The other question is what constitutes the act of 7arb?
Why didn't Allah SWT used the term Qatl instead?
Does that hint that 7arb does not necessarily mean a war of physical proportion but could be just an act of intense disapproval such would be an embargo?

[johan]

If these verses were meant to be concerned about self defence, why doesn't it say something like - fight those that fight you? Instead it talks about attacking the non-believers. No mention of "mischief".

Also why isn't there a context of a time limit?

009.028 O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
009.029 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
009.030 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
009.031 They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
009.032 Fain would they extinguish Allah's light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
009.033 It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

Historical context: It was decided that non-muslims not be allowed in Mecca. People were worried that money flow would decrease so jizya was initated.

it is only when the enemy declared physical war on us first by an act of qatl(killing)) that we would retaliate? when i have time i will provide the proof inshaallah

jizya?
what does jizya mean?
can't it be ransom for the prisoner of war rather than the tax imposed on non-muslim?
i think one needs a redefining of those misunderstood terms..

[shaad_lko]

Yeah, right. How could I possibly misinterpret Muhammad waging war against usurers as Muhammad waging war against usurers?

Speaking of grey matter, found the time in history where the Koran eradicated slavery yet?

Failure to understand the simple import of the verse belies your absolute lack of knowledge about any sort of diction (much less the Quranic variety). Also, Quran being a trans-historical document that although appeared at a point of historical time, applies equally well for centuries and eons to come.

Of course, given your failure to argue your case on a consistent basis you are prone to resort to smileys..

[johan]

it is only when the enemy declared physical war on us first by an act of qatl(killing)) that we would retaliate? when i have time i will provide the proof inshaallah

This is the proof:

[2:190]
Qatilu(Fight/Kill) in the way of Allah those who yuqaatilookum (fight/kill you) but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

This is the context of Killing/Fighting an armed strugle/jihaad.

[shaad_lko]

Historical context: It was decided that non-muslims not be allowed in Mecca. People were worried that money flow would decrease so jizya was initated.

Unfortunately, Muslims would be wary of taking the context of the verses from those who have already contextualized the Mosaic law.

[patrick]

it is only when the enemy declared physical war on us first by an act of qatl(killing)) that we would retaliate? when i have time i will provide the proof inshaallah

jizya?
what does jizya mean?
can't it be ransom for the prisoner of war rather than the tax imposed on non-muslim?
i think one needs a redefining of those misunderstood terms..

Read again:

009.028 O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. [ they did fear poverty so Mohammad came up with:]
009.029 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
009.030 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
009.031 They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
009.032 Fain would they extinguish Allah's light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
009.033 It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

[patrick]

Jizya- a bit like payng off the Mafia:

The Tafsi Ibn Kathir is famous and more than merely representative about the sources of this theological basis to Sharia law. Specifically:

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace, Allah said,
(until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam,
(with willing submission), in defeat and subservience,
(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,

(Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.) This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. The scholars of Hadith narrated from `Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ash`ari that he said, "I recorded for `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham: `In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion. We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims. We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors [of our houses of worship] for the wayfarer and passerby. Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days. We will not allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit [or betrayal] against Muslims. We will not teach our children the Qur'an, publicize practices of Shirk, invite anyone to Shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so. We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them. We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons. We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor. We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets. We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices [with prayer] at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets. We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims. We will be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes.' When I gave this document to `Umar, he added to it, `We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is
broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.'''