Warners to all comunities?

[justavisitor]

35:24
Surely We have sent you with the truth as a bearer of good news and a warner; and there is not a people but a warner has gone among them.

36:6
A revelation of the Mighty, the Merciful. That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless.

If the Meccan's forefathers were not warned, this contradicts 35:24 stating that all communities had a warner among them.

[shaad_lko]

35:24
Surely We have sent you with the truth as a bearer of good news and a warner; and there is not a people but a warner has gone among them.

36:6
A revelation of the Mighty, the Merciful. That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless.

If the Meccan's forefathers were not warned, this contradicts 35:24 stating that all communities had a warner among them.

A little adjustment in sight, would show that it rather fulfils 35:24 - Meccans being left out also have a warner now.. (that is what 35:24 is saying, Prophet (pbuh) is sent so that Meccans also become a warned people like others)..

[justavisitor]

Yes but what about the Meccan's forefathers? they are a community who did not have a warner yet it is said that all communities had a warner among them

[shaad_lko]

Yes but what about the Meccan's forefathers? they are a community who did not have a warner yet it is said that all communities had a warner among them

forefathers of Meccans are not distinct from Meccans as a nation.. Looking at this nation of Meccans and their forefathers, the Prophet (pbuh) is sent to them, just as to previous nations other Prophets were sent.

Also, the word used in 35:24 is umma (nation, community) while in 36:6 it is qaum (race or people) - while these terms are close, they are not exactly similar and cannot be compared.

[naderM]

35:24
Surely We have sent you with the truth as a bearer of good news and a warner; and there is not a people but a warner has gone among them.

36:6
A revelation of the Mighty, the Merciful. That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless.

If the Meccan's forefathers were not warned, this contradicts 35:24 stating that all communities had a warner among them.

Shaad already gave the concise answer to this "contradiction". I will add the details for those interested to learn.

After it had disintegrated into many communities, Prophets were sent to bring back humanity to their original united ummat 2:213 so consequently there is not a community/ummat in whom no prophets and warners were sent 10:47,16:36,35:24. These warners will be called to testify against every comunity on the Day of Judgement 4:41,16:84. This does not mean that every land and village had a prophet although Allah could have done it 25:51, but when the unaltered teachings of a prophet reaches a people who begin practising it then its enough for them to be considered part of that specific prophet's ummat, even after that prophet's death as reflected in Ibrahim and Ismail's prayer 2:128. The Muslims that passed away, of today and the future can all be considered to be the prophet Muhammad's ummat. The Quran clearly uses ummat in this sense, regardless of the individuals composing that ummat being contemporaries or not. In 2:133-4 for example the prophets Ibrahim, Ismail, Isaac and Jacob and their people are said to be one and the same ummat/nation, since they all shared the same principles of life and religion, and their descendants were still part of their ummat until their teachings became so heavily corrupt that their umma is said to have "passed away". This is stressed again in 2:140-1. All this shows that those who are included in an ummat, share several common characteristics. The word is mainly used in a physical sense for a common ethnicity or in a spiritual sense for a community composed of individuals linked together by deeply ingrained principals, regardless of time, space or ethnicity, which is why Allah says He could, against their freewill, make all mankind a single ummat (ie spiritually) like it originally was 11:118,16:93.
This means 2 people can share the same physical ummat without belonging to the same spiritual ummat. The prophet Muhammad, his followers, rejecters and even forefathers who had completely strayed from the right path, all belonged to one physical ummat but the spiritual ummat only included Muhammad, his followers and the believers who submitted themselves to God whether past, present or future. They become an ummat within another ummat 3:104"And from among you there should be a party/ummat who invite to good and enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong, and these it is that shall be successful". See also 3:113,5:66,7:159.
Ummat actually stems from UMM lit. mother or source. It also takes the meaning of path or direction as in 16:120,43:22.

In 13:30 the Quran alludes to this by stating that the ummat to which the prophet Muhammad was sent, was separate from the umamun/nations that came before it and passed away, and this is because it had lost what linked it to them spiritually just like the initial ummat that included all mankind eventually disappeared due to the differences that began to appear, and that altered the original way taught by Adam 2:213,10:19. This scenario kept repeating itself in the course of history after the demise of a prophet who was sent to constitute a righteous ummat. By the time of the prophet Muhammad, the righteous legacy of the most ancient Arab prophets such as Hud and Salih who had been sent to the Aad and Thamud, down to the prophet Ismail who had founded the Kaaba with Ibrahim his father, and finally Shuayb, was almost entirely forgotten. Besides the few righteous hanif remnants who remained true to some of this legacy, the pure ways of the ancients had undergone severe corruption that started with innovations and foreign influences that were then carried on by the succeeding generations who added their own lot of corruption in complete heedlessness since no warner came to them. A prophet was thus raised in a qawm/people who did not have any warner 28:46,32:3,34:44 and before which about 60+ generations had passed since Shuayb the last Arab prophet, to warn them of what their forefathers werent warned and to constitue a new righteous and well balanced ummat that would last so long as the people would hold fast by the uncorrupted and uncorruptable final revelation to mankind 2:143,3:110,36:2-6.

[alan]

What about the Arabs who adhered to Judaism or even Christianity?

[shaad_lko]

What about the Arabs who adhered to Judaism or even Christianity?

then they have already had a warner amongst them. The verse under discussion is squarely pointing to the Bani Ismail.

[alan]

then they have already had a warner amongst them. The verse under discussion is squarely pointing to the Bani Ismail.

So you are suggesting that neighbouring arabs are/were genetically differant and therefore did not have the same forefathers?

[shaad_lko]

So you are suggesting that neighbouring arabs are/were genetically differant and therefore did not have the same forefathers?

As Nader pointed out, the issue is not one of physical descent alone but includes identification with a spiritual tradition/ideology which constitutes the definition of umma.

Also, Arab is a wide term used for different peoples who identify themselves with a particular culture and geography ( ultimately, of course all humanity is genetically the same as we are all descended from Adam and Eve). The first recipients/addressees of the Prophetic message are the leaders of the Quraysh who specifically identified themselves as being the custodians of the Ka'aba and descendants of Ismail - here it is also worth mentioning that the exact Bani Ismail constitute a very small portion of the overall Arab nation, the former are sort of sprinkled in the latter and through generations of cultural mixing the Bedouins had also come to regard themselves as part of the same umma. In contrast to these sub-groups, the Christians and Jews of Arabia always maintained their distinctiveness and could not be addressed along with them as being part of "those to whom no warner was sent".

[alan]

So,forgive me Shaad,we are to believe that Bani Ismail are sole recipients of Mohamad,saw,s message.The neighbours,probably also decended from Ismail were ok cos they followed another Prophet?
As we are also to believe that Mohamad wasnt just sent to Bani Ismail,but for all mankind,which is it and how do these Arab forefathers fit into this picture?

[shaad_lko]

So,forgive me Shaad,we are to believe that Bani Ismail are sole recipients of Mohamad,saw,s message.The neighbours,probably also decended from Ismail were ok cos they followed another Prophet?
As we are also to believe that Mohamad wasnt just sent to Bani Ismail,but for all mankind,which is it and how do these Arab forefathers fit into this picture?

not at all. We are talking of this specific verse which mentions that the Prophet (sws) was sent to an unlettered (without a scripture) people - they are the first addressees of the Divine revelation, which has come as a favour unto the progeny of Ismail (pbuh). Moreover, if you look at other verses within the Quran it also becomes clear that the Jews and Christians of the time (who could possibly lay claim to a Prophetic legacy) are also castigated for their divergence from the straight path and are invited to belief in the Last Messenger (pbuh) whose signs are present in their own texts.

Primarily, yes the first Muslim community is from the unlettered people of Arabia and this community is tasked with inviting others to truth :

Thus We have made you a middle nation, so that you may act as witnesses for mankind, and the Messenger may be a witness for you.(2:143)

[Paulpablo]

is there any evidence at all that there was any warning given to native americans? who werent muslim, or australian aborigional tribes. there must have been 100s of prophets all over the world, except theres only evidence of muslims at that time in one place. other than the muslims in other countries who became muslim because of their contact with islamic people there werent any countries who independantly became muslim because of the warners of their own people, thats just a plain historical fact although it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest to hear fraudulant claims that the aztecs were muslim all along, or the native americans were muslim all along.

[awz1]

is there any evidence at all that there was any warning given to native americans? who werent muslim, or australian aborigional tribes. there must have been 100s of prophets all over the world, except theres only evidence of muslims at that time in one place. other than the muslims in other countries who became muslim because of their contact with islamic people there werent any countries who independantly became muslim because of the warners of their own people, thats just a plain historical fact although it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest to hear fraudulant claims that the aztecs were muslim all along, or the native americans were muslim all along.

I wouldn't be suprised if they were. Being a muslim is about believing on one God. If they did, then they could be classed as believers.

[Paulpablo]

well if you believe that you can be a muslim while not believing in abraham, moses, jesus or mohammad or reading the quran and (just using the aztecs for example) making human sacrifices to the god of your choice then youre the most open minded muslim ive ever met. Also when the discovery channel does a documentry on a new found tribe and the women are bare chested and the men run around half naked im quite sure they havent been effected or taught by any islamic prophet no matter what god they believe in.
I havent really put my full effort into arguing my point in this reply like i normally do because i just cant find the motivation to argue with somone on the prospect of something as ridiculous as the assumption that maybe all monotheists in the world were and are muslim.

[ihsan]

I suggest you research the "Great Spirit" in reference to the question regarding Native Americans. Also, you may want to venture their belief in how he taught them how to live. Again, the Quran also argues that man, over time, can corrupt their basic teachings, meaning practices like 'running around naked' are actually deviations from the nature of man.