Missing on the reborn Messiah

[hyd]

I had a discussion with somebody and he has the following view:

You ask me to summarise my view, ok :

1. The majority of Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah.

2. They rejected him because he didn't pick up a sword and fight the Romans, and he wasn't preceded by the descent of a prophet from heaven - both of which were prophecised in the Bible.

3. Christians and Muslims say the Jews are wrong and that the second coming of Elijah was fulfilled in the person of Yahya/John the Baptist. They also say that the prophecies about him fighting physically were not fulfilled literally - but only metaphorically.

4. The rejection of their Messiah by the majority of Jews is a historical fact, and an error.

(You can check with your sources about all 4 points and let me know if there is anything factually wrong)

5. The Prophet, pbuh, said all the errors of the Jews will be made by Muslims - therefore the majority of Muslims will reject the messiah and expect him to fight physically and expect a prophet to physically descend from heaven. They will argue with the minority who do accept the Messiah - just like the majority of Jews argued with the minority who accepted Jesus.

[Further clarification of his reasoning]
The point is that if Muslims are to commit all the same errors that Jews committed, then this is indeed the logical conclusion. For we all agree that the majority of the Jews did reject the Messiah. This would say that when the Messiah comes, the majority of the Muslims will be on the wrong path - and indeed, this is indeed what the Prophet, pbuh, stated the Ummah would be like - even saying that the majority (72 sects) will be hell bound.

So for me the choice is clear - either the Prophet, pbuh, is right and the majority Muslims will reject the messiah like the Jews did (and perhaps use the same excuses of wanting literal prophecies, literal wars etc) - or the alternative narrative that the majority of Muslims (who, remember, the majority will be in errant sects at the time) will recognise a spiritual being descending from heaven with 2 angels, who will then pick up a sword and then start killing all the pigs and breaking all the crosses, and then will start a war against the unbelievers and slay a giant at the gates of Lud, before marrying, having children and then finally passing away.

I choose to think that the prophecies of Dajjal and his donkey are metaphorical. I apply the same logic to the prophecies about the Messiah as well. I look to see what the Jews believe and why they rejected their Messiah, and logic tells me that the majority of Muslims will resemble the Jews like two shoes in a pair, as the Prophet, pbuh, prophecised.

He also mention Yahya (pbuh)[John the baptist] as Elijah in spirit. Not sure exactly why, but what I understood so far is because Muslims will expect Jesus (p) or Messiah to return in body literally, but like Yahya he might return in spirit, not in body. But that might be misunderstanding on my part since he is saying the hadith about muslim resembling Jews like a pair of shoes will exactly come true. So there might be two people one like Yahya and next one Messiah. Which makes me believe he is not clear about his beliefs which are very close to Ahmadiya or Bahai.

I posted it here since he doesn't seem to come here and discuss this himself.

Anyhow, what is your input on this esp from Ron, Ihsan, and Lumumba -- although no pressure if you guys don't have time to comment. I'll post my concern later when I get sometime.

Regards,

[Moonlight]

Elijah never saw death nither has Enoch because God took both of them up somewhere and they were both phyical at the time. Only Moses was a spirit being in the new testement (Matthew 17) and*Elijah was there too but I doubt he was a spirit. Even Jesus was took into heaven phyically so that's 3 people in the bible that went into heaven in flesh and blood. The day*Elijah is pose to come is in the end times so the hole john being*Elijah is false according to the old testement.

My view on the Jews understanding of Jesus is that he died and he was pose to bring peace on earth on the day he came. To them there is no second comming so Jesus is a false massiah to them. The fact that he died tells them that he failed the OT prophecys.

[theman09]

this is for patrick

4. The rejection of their Messiah by the majority of Jews is a historical fact, and an error.

paul can go outside of jerusalem and spread the message of a dead god on a stick and win pagan hearts and minds, but none of jesus miracles/tricks/LENGTHY synagogue speeches came to his rescue, why is ithat? WHY was paul MORE suCCESSFUL in converting ppl THAN jesus? jesus is TRYING his best to communicate that he is a god by crying, praying and talking just like all humans, but when he plays this is the flesh, he is rejected and murdered by the romans. paul spreads the message about jesus by communicating to the pagans that jesus was crying ,praying and talking like thier pagan gods, and paul is VERY SUCCESSFUL in wining hearts and minds.

now who is god here? maybe jesus would require paul to be his intermediary?

[hyd]

^ don't use this thread for off topic discussions please.

[DocW]

1. The majority of Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah.

I did not understand this one. As I understand the ones who accepted did not remain Jews, they became his followers i.e Christians.

[DocW]

2. They rejected him because he didn't pick up a sword and fight the Romans, and he wasn't preceded by the descent of a prophet from heaven - both of which were prophecised in the Bible.

As I understand it has been never been necessary for all prophets to pick up sword and fight. Prophets that had political authority did that i.e David, Solomon, but the rest were prophets. Noah, Lut, Abraham, Jacob never fought wars with swords. It is not integral part of prophetic mission for the prophet to fight wars with swords.

Prophethood is not passed from generation to generation. There was a gap between Noah and Abraham. In Bani ishmael there was a gap between Ismael and Muhammad pbuh. As Muslims understand Christ pbuh prophecised the coming of a prophet after him and Muslims believe he was referring to Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

[DocW]

4. The rejection of their Messiah by the majority of Jews is a historical fact, and an error.

We can answer this from a Muslim perspective and a Christian perspective. From a Muslim perspective, when a prophet has completed his mission he leaves the world. Thus Christ pbuh was raised when his mission was completed. Both Quran and Bible agree that the cause for him leaving this world was that the intention of the people was to crucify him. From a Muslim perspective Noah left his people in boat when he achieved itmam ul hujjah, Lut left his people when he did so as well and Muhammad pbuh migrated from Makkah which denoated that itmam ul hujjah had been completed on the Qurayish.

According to Bible the excuse to crucify Christ was very weak. Pilate gave the crowd a choice to save one of the two, the crowd chose to crucify Christ pbuh in stead of a common murderer. So what was the view of the majority?

Divine Scriptures are Books of guidance and provide historical information as well. What alternative historical information do we have about crucifixation of Christ pbuh. He was decreed to crucifixation on pblic demand according to Divine Scriptures.

[DocW]

3. Christians and Muslims say the Jews are wrong and that the second coming of Elijah was fulfilled in the person of Yahya/John the Baptist. They also say that the prophecies about him fighting physically were not fulfilled literally - but only metaphorically.

According to Muslim belief as far as I know Elijah is not mentioned as Elijah in Quran. Some people say that Yahya was Elijah. Yahya never fought any wars and if I remember correctly lived a very simple life and was beheaded upon request of a dancer who was asked by the king to make a request. Yahya never fought any wars nor did John the baptist according to Bible.