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Thread: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    Where the thread collapses under its weight is the fact that you have singularly failed to prove the existence of any discrimination against Jews in Muslim nations.
    I have...in this post showing Iran's discriminatory laws against Jews and Christians:

    http://forums.understanding-islam.co...l=1#post177123

    Let's not forget it's illegal to own Bibles and build Synagogues in Saudi Arabia or to be a Jewish in the Maldives.

    Now, to compare something (the alleged discrimination against Christians)
    Happy to discuss the discriminatory laws against Christians anytime....

    You seem to be missing the key point here - by and large the only people who have it good in KSA are either the white expats or the sheikhs themselves.
    It wasn't an essay question. Are churches and Bibles (at least for Christians) legal in Saudi Arabia?

    Yes they do. However, they are not permitted to - good try..
    So you're saying Israel prevents Arabs from leaving Israel for a Muslim homeland?

    No there is still no proof of forced compulsion (a funny term - forced compulsion), the only place where we could say something like that happened was in the Holocaust - so forced compulsion of Jews by Christians..
    Uh, no. That didn't happen in the Holocaust since Jews were targeted based on their ethnicity rather than strictly their religion. Atheist Jews or Jewish converts would have been (and were) rounded up. German Christians needed to prove they were not more than one quarter Jewish IIRC.

    however, you are the one not acknowledging that and hence you should admit to being anti-Semitic..
    That's quite the line of logic, but what does that have to do with forced conversions/expulsions of Jews and Christians under the Muslim Almohad caliphate?

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    once again, you're missing the point about selective amnesia..


    Quote Originally Posted by ProphetofTolerance View Post
    It wasn't an essay question. Are churches and Bibles (at least for Christians) legal in Saudi Arabia?
    I am under no compulsion to answer questions like : "Why does ice not melt into ink?" - the fallacy in the question has already been pointed out by me.

    So you're saying Israel prevents Arabs from leaving Israel for a Muslim homeland?
    No, it discourages Palestinians from returning to their native land which is a clear-cut case of discrimination. Then it also bombs innocent civilians..


    Uh, no. That didn't happen in the Holocaust since Jews were targeted based on their ethnicity rather than strictly their religion. Atheist Jews or Jewish converts would have been (and were) rounded up. German Christians needed to prove they were not more than one quarter Jewish IIRC.
    So, what is your basis that East Timor and Sudan were religious rather than ethnic conflicts ?

    That's quite the line of logic, but what does that have to do with forced conversions/expulsions of Jews and Christians under the Muslim Almohad caliphate?
    There is no evidence of persecution of Christians under any Spanish Caliphate. In fact, its the reverse after the conquest by Ferdinand and Isabella where they went back on their words and indulged in the Inquisition. And what it has to do with the thread, is once again, selective amnesia : Jews were well-treated under Muslim rule barring a few exceptions and you are not bringing up the larger issues of discrimination faced by Muslims historically as well as today..
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    Thank you for your views. I think we should go back to the original discussion in the OP to determine if Christians are indeed the new Jews of the Muslim world.

    Jews, of course, left the Muslim world in droves and the remaining Jewish communities live in fear and/or face persecution from the state.

    I think the only way to answer this question is to identify any similar patterns between Christians of today and Jews from 60 years ago.

    We can then look at attacks against Christians by the local communities and discriminatory laws which persecute Christians in the Muslim world.

    I believe Saudi Arabia's laws prohibiting the construction of churches and possession of Bibles for her massive Christian worker population is one such example of the discriminatory laws and persecution Christians in the Muslim world are subject to.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    you're welcome but I havent really accepted that there was any discrimination against Jews in the Muslim world - we can talk about Christians later, or you could change the basis of the analogy.

    It is just disappointing that otherwise intelligent people choose to ignore the large-scale discrimination against the Palestinians, which just leads one to suspect a pattern of bias and prejudice..
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    It is just disappointing that otherwise intelligent people choose to ignore the large-scale discrimination against the Palestinians, which just leads one to suspect a pattern of bias and prejudice..
    The pattern of bias and prejudice shown by Muslims to Jews and Christians over the centuries completely over shadows anything going on Palestine today. I have read the types of defences ad neauseum that so-called forum intellectuals try and give to explain Islam's treatment of Jews/Christians. (And yes, I purposely use the word Islam, not selective Muslims...because it is the theology of Islam that is the issue...and it is the ACTUAL behaviour/example of pduh and his followers that testifies to the historical and current behaviour of many Muslims the world over.)

    I see with interest, your nine things you god calls for. How do points #3, 4 and 5 link with your view (or that of your Muslim brothers) regarding Israel/Israeli's? Perhaps because they are sub human/dogs/pigs etc, then pduh's nine points don't apply to them....?

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    The pattern of bias and prejudice shown by Muslims to Jews and Christians over the centuries completely over shadows anything going on Palestine today.
    Interesting viewpoint. You may wish to clarify, but it sound like a very un-Christian thing to say about a group of people living under Military Occupation for decades now.

    That said, you're blaming Islam for the mistreatment of some Jews over the centuries by Muslim rulers. Fair enough that's your view - and I agree, some of the persecution was done in the name of religion.

    However, I am reminded of Jesus' words:
    "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
    Matt 7.3

    Now, the history books also tell us that the 'Golden Age' of the Jews was also under Muslim rule - and coincided with the time when European Christians were slaughtering Jews and imposing discriminatory laws etc against Jews. Does Islam get the credit for the good treatment also?

    As for the Prophet's example - do the Jewish tribes that were not fought against and honoured their treaties not count as how he treated Jews? Or the fact that he married Safiyyah - who was a Jew?

    But, let's leave all that to oneside and look at your relativism argument about how Muslims have treated Jews over the centuries. You're a Christian. You're here on an Islam forum. Therefore the logical thing to do would be to compare how Christians have treated Jews with how Muslims have treated Jews. You brought up previous centuries as your timeframe.

    Now, by my reading - the killings and persecution of Jews at the hands of Christendom (as the perpetrators themselves termed themselves/actions) 'overshadows any' persecutions by some Muslims against some Jews over the same period.

    Therefore, by your own logic - Christianity is the greater of the two 'evils' - for adherents of a Book which say Jews are responsible for the killing of God, have slaughtered, forcibly converted, deported and exploited many many times more Jews than were abused in the Muslim world.

    In the 20th and 21st century, European anti-Semitism was unfortunately imported into parts of the Middle East - but even when we include these and go back the centuries as you desire, we see that Christendom is far the more culpable of the sins you seem so ready to colour Islam with.

    Matthew 7.3 therefore seems to apply perfectly here. Less hate, more love is required.

    Cheers,
    Shafique

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shafique View Post
    Interesting viewpoint. You may wish to clarify, but it sound like a very un-Christian thing to say about a group of people living under Military Occupation for decades now.

    That said, you're blaming Islam for the mistreatment of some Jews over the centuries by Muslim rulers. Fair enough that's your view - and I agree, some of the persecution was done in the name of religion.

    However, I am reminded of Jesus' words:
    Matt 7.3

    Now, the history books also tell us that the 'Golden Age' of the Jews was also under Muslim rule - and coincided with the time when European Christians were slaughtering Jews and imposing discriminatory laws etc against Jews. Does Islam get the credit for the good treatment also?

    As for the Prophet's example - do the Jewish tribes that were not fought against and honoured their treaties not count as how he treated Jews? Or the fact that he married Safiyyah - who was a Jew?

    But, let's leave all that to oneside and look at your relativism argument about how Muslims have treated Jews over the centuries. You're a Christian. You're here on an Islam forum. Therefore the logical thing to do would be to compare how Christians have treated Jews with how Muslims have treated Jews. You brought up previous centuries as your timeframe.

    Now, by my reading - the killings and persecution of Jews at the hands of Christendom (as the perpetrators themselves termed themselves/actions) 'overshadows any' persecutions by some Muslims against some Jews over the same period.

    Therefore, by your own logic - Christianity is the greater of the two 'evils' - for adherents of a Book which say Jews are responsible for the killing of God, have slaughtered, forcibly converted, deported and exploited many many times more Jews than were abused in the Muslim world.

    In the 20th and 21st century, European anti-Semitism was unfortunately imported into parts of the Middle East - but even when we include these and go back the centuries as you desire, we see that Christendom is far the more culpable of the sins you seem so ready to colour Islam with.

    Matthew 7.3 therefore seems to apply perfectly here. Less hate, more love is required.

    Cheers,
    Shafique
    I think you have lost my point.

    The behaviour of "Christians" over the centuries needs the scrutiny of everyone else.

    But my point is -

    Look at those GENUINE followers of Jesus...and compare how they acted towards Muslims, others.

    There is a marked difference between the insitutional church of the day (eg Rome), vs Anabaptists, and other groups who were pacifists in their dealings.

    You have swallowed the oft-quoted lie that all Christians behaved in this way.

    However - the behaviour of Muslims CAN BE and IS anchored in the Koran.

    To your last point - can you relay that to how the Muslim world currently view Israel...and how the Muslim world has treated the Jews in Israel over the past 40 years...?

    If you charge me with hypocracy, please also look at yourself and what your Middle East brethren get up.

    Meanwhile, I will continue to follow the example of how Jesus ACTUALLY lived, and what he said, and how he was the perfect example of sacrifice, tollerance and love for this needy world.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    Is that the sound of moving goalposts?

    Christians killed Jews and expelled Jews in the name of Christendom. Some even viewed killing as a penance and righteous act. For those Christians, they were indeed killing in the name of Christ and because of their faith.

    I totally agree that we can agree that they were NOT following the teaching of Jesus as we both understand it.

    We can also see from empirical facts that the historical extent of anti-semitism and the slaughter of Jews in Europe by Christians far, far, far, far outweighs the instances by Muslims you are trying to blame Islam for.

    My point to you is that why don't you attribute the good treatment of Jews by Muslims (which is by far the most typical behaviour over the centuries) to Islam, rather than blaming Islam for the smaller number of instances of anti-Semitism by Muslims which are minute compared to the instances by Christians?

    I can certainly take time to explain to you how the world has viewed Israel's Military Occupation of land captured in 1967, and can certainly compare it with other populations living under military occupation. The PLO and Fatah were secular organisations fighting for the end to occupation. Many Palestinians are Christians and prominent in the anti-Occupation struggle. I'm sure you can verify that Israel chose to fund opposition groups and these later became Hamas - but that is just to show that you can't conflate religion with the Military Occupation by Israel of Palestinian land.

    You would look silly to say that those who opposed the Nazi occupation of France or Poland were anti-German Church (Hitler set up an official German church, after all) - but rather the opponents were fighting a military occupier.

    You will know a tree by its fruit. You look at few rotten fruit from one tree and conclude the tree is bad, but ignore the many more rotten fruit on your tree.

    I hope I've made myself clear. If not, please re-read my previous post too which talks about how Muslims did treat Jews over the millenia. In that is your answer - not on what you think Islam teaches vis-a-vis Jews.

    Cheers,
    Shafique

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    Those mentioning European antisemitism always fail to discuss the first major pogrom against Jews in Europe took place in al-Andalusia.

    Anyway, back on topic: I believe Christians and other religious minorities are the new Jews in the Middle East.

    One need only look at the discriminatory laws and campaigns of violence to see the reality.

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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    :facepalm: On the other forum you brought up this strawman as well - and the first pogrom was actually in Russia:
    http://www.dubaiforums.com/dubai-pol...om-t51272.html

    The list of anti-semitic attacks is pretty conclusive and shows that Christians in Europe committed far more acts than the isolated incidents by Muslims.

    (And let's not go into the old chestnut of your beliefs of Islam from your blogger friends on Jihadwatch - they don't know what they are talking about)

    But this is instructive for you:
    The Muslim Period (711-1492)

    In the first three centuries of the Muslim domination the Jews enjoyed great influence and prosperity. Jews frequently served the government in official capacities and plkayed an active role in political and financial affairs. Hasdai ibn Shaprut (fl. 915-975) was counsellor to the caliphs of Córdoba, the Ibn Nagrelas were viziers of Granada, the Ibn Ezras, Ibn Megashs, and Ibn Albalias were high officials in Granada and Seville. The Sephardim were also engaged in considerable social and intellectual intercourse with influential circles of the Muslim population. Solomon ibn Gabirol, Moses ibn Ezra, and Judah ha-Levi were but the acknowledged supreme geniuses of a form of expression. The period 1000-1148 disserved to be named the Golden Age of Hebrew literature.
    http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Spa...no-History.htm

    Cheers,
    Shafique

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shafique View Post
    Is that the sound of moving goalposts?

    Christians killed Jews and expelled Jews in the name of Christendom. Some even viewed killing as a penance and righteous act. For those Christians, they were indeed killing in the name of Christ and because of their faith.

    I totally agree that we can agree that they were NOT following the teaching of Jesus as we both understand it.

    We can also see from empirical facts that the historical extent of anti-semitism and the slaughter of Jews in Europe by Christians far, far, far, far outweighs the instances by Muslims you are trying to blame Islam for.

    My point to you is that why don't you attribute the good treatment of Jews by Muslims (which is by far the most typical behaviour over the centuries) to Islam, rather than blaming Islam for the smaller number of instances of anti-Semitism by Muslims which are minute compared to the instances by Christians?

    I can certainly take time to explain to you how the world has viewed Israel's Military Occupation of land captured in 1967, and can certainly compare it with other populations living under military occupation. The PLO and Fatah were secular organisations fighting for the end to occupation. Many Palestinians are Christians and prominent in the anti-Occupation struggle. I'm sure you can verify that Israel chose to fund opposition groups and these later became Hamas - but that is just to show that you can't conflate religion with the Military Occupation by Israel of Palestinian land.

    You would look silly to say that those who opposed the Nazi occupation of France or Poland were anti-German Church (Hitler set up an official German church, after all) - but rather the opponents were fighting a military occupier.

    You will know a tree by its fruit. You look at few rotten fruit from one tree and conclude the tree is bad, but ignore the many more rotten fruit on your tree.

    I hope I've made myself clear. If not, please re-read my previous post too which talks about how Muslims did treat Jews over the millenia. In that is your answer - not on what you think Islam teaches vis-a-vis Jews.

    Cheers,
    Shafique
    No...it is the sound of truth in your ears that find it hard to accept.

    To test my point, please answer these three q's.

    1. How was the early NT structured...eg, how did they meet....homes, size of groups etc...?

    2. How has the Roman Catholic church met, or conducted itself....particularly in affairs of the state?

    3. Comparing the two - how do you explain the difference between the NT early followers of Jesus, vs the institutional church of Rome...?

    My point to you is that why don't you attribute the good treatment of Jews by Muslims (which is by far the most typical behaviour over the centuries) to Islam, rather than blaming Islam for the smaller number of instances of anti-Semitism by Muslims which are minute compared to the instances by Christians?
    Quite simply because of the CURRENT view of Islam towards Jews and Christians is disgraceful. You may twist this by reciting history...and ignoring the abhorant ruling power of Rome vs genuine followers of Jesus....but you cannot ignore the disdain and hate showed by Muslims TODAY towards Israel, Jews and many Christians throughout the world....Sudan, Pakistan, Russia, Syria, Iran, Saudi. And now, in the West, it is on the rapid rise.

    You would look silly to say that those who opposed the Nazi occupation of France or Poland were anti-German Church (Hitler set up an official German church, after all) - but rather the opponents were fighting a military occupier.
    Indeed I would look silly. However, I don't look silly defending Jews who either lived in Palestine and/or Jews who returned to their original land in order to claim a homeland. On the other hand, Muslims look beyond silly trying to uphold Islam as a religion of love, tolerance, forgiveness etc, when they continue to show such disdain and hate to the Jews. If/when that disdain/hate goes away, I can only draw one conclusion about Islam...it is Satanic....and its followers are hypocrites.

    Oh, here's Shaad's nine points from Mohammad as reminder of how Islam should be treating Jews/Israel etc today -

    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

    Points 4, 5 and 6 are somewhat embarrising.

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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    Jude3, you are having a conversation with someone who has not actually read the NT. Asking him questions on the NT is probably a bad idea as a result.

    You can always test the poster by asking simple questions anyone discussing the issue should know before trying to argue a position.

    My advice to you is to ask shafique questions he can't google to find answers to.

    If he can't directly answer your simple New Testament questions that can't be googled, then he is simply wasting your time going off topic or making irrelevant points.

    I hope this helps in the future.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by jude3 View Post
    Oh, here's Shaad's nine points from Mohammad as reminder of how Islam should be treating Jews/Israel etc today -

    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

    Points 4, 5 and 6 are somewhat embarrising.
    what about Justness, whether in anger or in calmness ? Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and all the points follow in that sequence - so the Prophet joined with those who opposed and tormented him in Taif, he gave to those who deprived him in Makkah and he forgave those who killed his near and dear ones. The point here is taht one has to show remorse to be eligible for forgiveness.

    Btw, do you acknowledge that the Palestinians have been wronged and deprived ?
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    Jude, you are changing the goal posts yet again! Amazing.

    First you talk about how Islam has treated Jews over the centuries.
    The pattern of bias and prejudice shown by Muslims to Jews and Christians over the centuries completely over shadows anything going on Palestine today.
    I point out that if we look at the evidence, it is Christian atrocities that vastly outnumber a limited number of persecutions by Muslims (and point out that in the 20th century European anti-semitism is imported to the Mid East).

    Now it is:
    the CURRENT view of Islam towards Jews and Christians is disgraceful
    You seem to be equating the opposition to the Israeli Military Occupation with anti-Semitism and bizarely also saying it is 'Islam'. I've pointed out that the Palestinian nationalists include Christians - including in the leadership, and indeed for many years the struggle was led by secular (and ultimately corrupt) PLO/Fatah.

    I don't recognise reality in your conflating a struggle against a Military Occupation with religion - or indeed why you think this besmirches Islam??

    Surely Islam should not be judged on how Palestinians - Christian, Muslim and Atheist - view their military occupiers?

    Cheers,
    Shafique

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    Default Re: Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

    what about Justness, whether in anger or in calmness ? Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and all the points follow in that sequence - so the Prophet joined with those who opposed and tormented him in Taif, he gave to those who deprived him in Makkah and he forgave those who killed his near and dear ones. The point here is taht one has to show remorse to be eligible for forgiveness.
    You are deflecting. I'm asking YOU a personal question about your heart/view towards Jews/Israel...based on these challenges by Mohammad. Where is Islam's current joining of hands, giving to Israel when Muslims have been deprived, and forgiving Israel who has wronged Muslims...?

    All of your lengthy posts with the other gent are meanlingless while ever I witness Islam treating Jews/Christians like they do today.

    Btw, do you acknowledge that the Palestinians have been wronged and deprived ?
    Wronged, no...deprived yes...primarily by their own behaviour and causing the military to be so stroing against them, plsu being deprived by their wealthy and oil rich Muslim neighbours who require the disgraceful camps to continue in order to prop up their 'plight.'

    Jews living in Israel took in hundreds of thousands of other Jews in 1948, but Muslims were left stranded. Trans-Jordan was formed as a dedicated land for the Arabs living in Palestine, but this was soundly rejected by the Muslims.

    BTW, I'm not interested in a disucssion on this. It's too raw.

    Kind regards.

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