Are Christians becoming the new Jews?

[ProphetofTolerance]

When the even less tolerant Almohads invaded in 1147, however, and sought to impose Islam violently throughout their realm, Maimonides's family (along with many Jews and Christians) left Córdoba for other parts of Andalusia. Eventually, they landed in Fez, Morocco, still a part of the Almohad domain but apparently offering greater room for a covert Jewish life. It was here that Maimonides began his medical training.

As Muslim rule in Fez grew harsher, Jews were under tremendous pressure to convert, and one of the great questions of Maimonidean biography is whether or not he and his family became apostates. Mr. Kraemer answers with a well-argued "maybe." He notes that in his "Epistle on Forced Conversion," Maimonides condones conversion (when forced), discourages martyrdom, and encourages migration to safer lands where one can return to Judaism. And he insists (contrary to Herbert Davidson, another recent biographer) that testimony by individuals who claim to have known Maimonides personally points to Maimonides having converted outwardly, either in Fez or even earlier in Andalusia, while continuing to practice Judaism in secret.

http://www.nysun.com/arts/the-great-...monides/86437/

I thought you committed a typo by writing that but you seem to be living in another world..

I think you should move up from children's books on history because clearly you are severely misinformed.

the expulsion of jews was by the Christian edicts and not by any Muslims

And you would be wrong.

Maimonedes was an Iberian Jew

Let me finish that sentence for you: "Maimonides was an Iberian Jew who fled his homeland of Andalusia due to pressure from Muslim rulers to convert to Islam".

these are some basic facts which one is supposed to know before discussing history..

I guess you shouldn't be discussing history because you don't know anything.

as I said, you havent been there and you are relying on media reports. There are separate colonies and settlements. Also, Saudi Arabia doesnt give nationality to even Muslim expats, so leave alone the claim that it only allows temporary Christian visitors.

So which part of what I quoted is wrong? Are there any churches in Saudi Arabia? Are Christians legally able to own Bibles? Can Christians openly display their religion?

[shaad_lko]

http://www.nysun.com/arts/the-great-...monides/86437/



I think you should move up from children's books on history because clearly you are severely misinformed.



And you would be wrong.



Let me finish that sentence for you: "Maimonides was an Iberian Jew who fled his homeland of Andalusia due to pressure from Muslim rulers to convert to Islam".



I guess you shouldn't be discussing history because you don't know anything.

Facts about the stakes and Inquisition are only too well-known.. Now, Maimonedes left Almohad ruled Iberia to go to another Muslim land, so he was clearly not fleeing Islamic persecution, all roads point to the fact that he wanted to live under a better regime.. Think why he did not choose next-door Germany or Italy (there's a good reason for that which a good history student would know)..

So which part of what I quoted is wrong? Are there any churches in Saudi Arabia? Are Christians legally able to own Bibles? Can Christians openly display their religion?

Yeah, there are separate settlements for Christian expats in KSA - whole cities with all of the benefits you could ever imagine, and a better lifestyle than back home -as for toleration, you will find bikini beaches and dance parties there too in those enclosures! I used to have some pics, maybe if I get time I'll send you. All the harsh laws that you read about are imposed on its own locals, nearly all of whom happen to be Muslims.

[ProphetofTolerance]

Facts about the stakes and Inquisition are only too well-known..

It's also completely off topic. Another strawman.

But the bottom line: You were wrong.

Now, Maimonedes left Almohad ruled Iberia to go to another Muslim land, so he was clearly not fleeing Islamic persecution

He left because he and other Jews were being forced to convert to Islam.

Maimonides:

"You know, my brethren, that on account of our sins God has cast us into the midst of this people, the nation of Ishmael, who persecute us severely, and who devise ways to harm us and to debase us....No nation has ever done more harm to Israel. None has matched it in debasing and humiliating us. None has been able to reduce us as they have....We have borne their imposed degradation, their lies, and absurdities, which are beyond human power to bear."

Take your own advice: "there are some basic facts one should know before discussing history."

all roads point to the fact that he wanted to live under a better regime.

So which historian claims Maimonides fled Andalusia and then North Africa because he simply wanted to live under a better regime and not because of persecution?

What did Maimonides himself say about his persecution in Andalusia to the Jews of Yemen who were similarly being persecuted?

Think why he did not choose next-door Germany or Italy (there's a good reason for that which a good history student would know)..

I like how contradictory your logic is.

According to you, Maimonides wanted to live under a better regime. So, according to your logic, he didn't go to Germany (where he didn't speak the language, unlike the Muslim world, where he was already fluent in Arabic) because Germany didn't offer the same benefits for someone like Maimonides as Egypt.

And of course this is true. Maimonides himself said, "none has matched it in debasing and humiliating us".

Yeah, there are separate settlements for Christian expats in KSA - whole cities with all of the benefits you could ever imagine

So beyond these supposed apartheid settlements, everything in the quote is absolutely correct?

All the harsh laws that you read about are imposed on its own locals, nearly all of whom happen to be Muslims.

All SA citizens are Muslim if you include Shia. So the harsh laws pertaining to Christianity affect non-locals.

[Ron]

From the same source you quoted:

Mark Cohen quotes Haim Hillel Ben-Sasson, a specialist in medieval European Jewish history, who cautioned that Maimonides' condemnation of Islam should be understood "in the context of the harsh persecutions of the 12th century and that furthermore one may say that he was insufficiently aware of the status of the Jews in Christian lands, or did not pay attention to this, when he wrote the letter." Cohen continues by quoting Ben-Sasson, who argues that Jews generally had a better legal and security situation in the Muslim countries than in Christendom.

Also from the same source about the Epistles to Yemen:

The Epistle to Yemen or Yemen Epistle (Hebrew: אגרת תימן, Iggeret Teman) was an important communication written by Maimonides and sent to the Yemenite Jews. It is estimated to have been written in 1172.[1]

It arose because of religious persecution and heresy in 12th-century Yemen. The average Jewish population of Yemen for many centuries was very small. The Jews were scattered throughout the country, but they were successful in business and acquired books about the history of their faith.

There was a revolt against Saladin as sultan in the last quarter of the 12th century, and Shia Muslims began to persecute the Jewish faith in the Yemen at this time. At the same time, a man began preaching a syncretistic religion that combined Judaism and Islam, and claimed that the Bible had foretold his coming as a prophet.

The persecution and increasing apostasy led one of Yemen's most respected Jewish scholars, Jacob ben Nathanael, to write for counsel to Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, better known as Maimonides.

Maimonides replied in an epistle written in Arabic that was later translated into Hebrew. This letter made a tremendous impression on Yemenite Jewry, and effectively stopped the new religious movement. It also served as a source of strength, consolation and support for the faith in the continuing persecution.

Maimonides interceded with Saladin in Egypt, and shortly thereafter the persecution came to an end.

[shaad_lko]

It's also completely off topic. Another strawman.

in a discussion on persecution, how is Inquisition off-topic ? Rather, you are going wayward..

But the bottom line: You were wrong.

forget the bottom line, and look at the topline - the OP and the thread title themselves are flawed ..

All SA citizens are Muslim if you include Shia. So the harsh laws pertaining to Christianity affect non-locals.

Now, that's what's called a double whammy.. If KSA laws are harsh for the locals, they are harsh for the Muslims themselves, as you yourself admit there are no Christians locals. If they're soft for a certain segment of expats, we know that segment of expats comprises Christians and not Muslims.. rest can be deduced by anyone with basic intellect..

[ProphetofTolerance]

From the same source you quoted:

And this has to do with the number of factually inaccurate statements skaad_Iko made in this thread, including that Maimonides was not persecuted?

Was Maimonides' quote that he believed he and fellow Jews were being persecuted change what I did not quote because it was off topic to skaad_Iko's ridiculous claims?

in a discussion on persecution, how is Inquisition off-topic ? Rather, you are going wayward..

Gee, you need to ask how the inquisition is off-topic in a discussion of Christian persecution in the contemporary Muslim world? Really?

Now, that's what's called a double whammy.. If KSA laws are harsh for the locals, they are harsh for the Muslims themselves, as you yourself admit there are no Christians locals. If they're soft for a certain segment of expats, we know that segment of expats comprises Christians and not Muslims.. rest can be deduced by anyone with basic intellect..

It's amazing how I just wrote that the harsh laws apply to non-locals and you just wrote that locals bear the harsh laws that are enforced against Christians. As if being arrested for having Bibles or prayer meetings affects Muslim locals.

[shaad_lko]

And this has to do with the number of factually inaccurate statements skaad_Iko made in this thread, including that Maimonides was not persecuted?

like the factually inaccurate statement about East Timor right ? I was wondering why you didnt reply to that one..

Was Maimonides' quote that he believed he and fellow Jews were being persecuted change what I did not quote because it was off topic to skaad_Iko's ridiculous claims?

look who's talking of ridiculous claims.. true, Bosnia was only an aberration

Gee, you need to ask how the inquisition is off-topic in a discussion of Christian persecution in the contemporary Muslim world? Really?

wow, this takes the cake - the thread is not only about Christian persecution in the contemporary Muslim world, in fact you've tried to compare it to the non-existent persecution of Jews in the Muslim world, while conveniently bypassing the important sources of persecution in the Christian world itself - both past and present.

It's amazing how I just wrote that the harsh laws apply to non-locals and you just wrote that locals bear the harsh laws that are enforced against Christians. As if being arrested for having Bibles or prayer meetings affects Muslim locals.

once again, its sailed over your head.. there is no harsh law for non-local Christians (read Western expats).

[ProphetofTolerance]

once again, its sailed over your head.. there is no harsh law for non-local Christians

Thirty five Ethiopian Christians are awaiting deportation from Saudi Arabia for "illicit mingling," after police arrested them when they raided a private prayer gathering in Jeddah in mid-December, 2011, Human Rights Watch said today. Of those arrested, 29 were women. They were subjected to arbitrary body cavity searches in custody, three of the Ethiopians told Human Rights Watch.

The Ethiopians gathered to pray together on December 15, during the advent of Christmas, in the private home of one of the Ethiopians, when police burst in and arrested them, three jailed members of the group, two women and one man, told Human Rights Watch.

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/s...private-prayer

Right. You're only arrested and deported for having Christian prayer services in Saudi Arabia.

The "point" that you think you're making totally sailed over my head.

Btw, how many churches are in Saudi Arabia (since Christians have so much religious freedom there)?

like the factually inaccurate statement about East Timor right ? I was wondering why you didnt reply to that one..

No, I don't recall that. You cited one source out of many regarding East Timor after claiming 100,000 Bosniaks had died when the truth is your figure included casualties from all sides and both civilians and soldiers. No word if those figures include both direct and indirect deaths.

Btw, here's what wikipedia says on East Timor casualties:

In March 1976, UDT leader Lopes da Cruz reported that 60,000 Timorese had been killed during the invasion.[49] A delegation of Indonesian relief workers agreed with this statistic.[50] In an interview on 5 April 1977 with the Sydney Morning Herald, Indonesian Foreign Minister Adam Malik said the number of dead was "50,000 people or perhaps 80,000".[30] A figure of 100,000 is cited by McDonald (1980) and by Taylor. Amnesty International estimated that one third of East Timor's population, or 200,000 in total, died from military action, starvation and disease from 1975 to 1999. In 1979 the U.S. Agency for International Development estimated that 300,000 East Timorese had been moved into camps controlled by Indonesian armed forces.[51]

So, according to two sources, 60,000 died during the invasion phase of the conflict. That would imply deaths directly caused from fighting and war.

wow, this takes the cake - the thread is not only about Christian persecution in the contemporary Muslim world, in fact you've tried to compare it to the non-existent persecution of Jews in the Muslim world

You mean like Iran (where I posted the 'rights' Jews and Christians have on this thread already) or Saudi Arabia where being Jewish is illegal or Pakistan where a Christian man was arrested because his first name was "Jew"?

LAHORE: A man wrote that his name was ‘Jew Jurian’ on his national identity card form. The data entry clerk then assumed he was a Jew. Thus for the first time in the history of Computerised National Identity Cards (CNIC), a Pakistani was officially declared a Jew.

The problem was that he was a Christian.

The bigger problem for Jurian, as he told The Express Tribune, was that he was accused of being a Jew – and subsequently, through the twisted logic of twisted souls, of blasphemy.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/318741/t...an-in-trouble/

But seriously, you're still claiming that Jews weren't forced or compelled to leave the much of the Muslim world following the creation of Israel?

Are you being serious here? It would take all of two seconds to find overwhelming evidence of pogroms and government sponsored evacuations removing Jews from the Muslim world before and after the creation of Israel.

[shaad_lko]

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/s...private-prayer



Right. You're only arrested and deported for having Christian prayer services in Saudi Arabia.

prevention of "illicit mingling" is enforced upon Muslims too, nothing uniquely directed towards Christians there..

Btw, how many churches are in Saudi Arabia (since Christians have so much religious freedom there)?

as you yourself admit there are no Christian locals, so why would they have churches ?

No, I don't recall that. You cited one source out of many regarding East Timor after claiming 100,000 Bosniaks had died when the truth is your figure included casualties from all sides and both civilians and soldiers. No word if those figures include both direct and indirect deaths.

Btw, here's what wikipedia says on East Timor casualties:



So, according to two sources, 60,000 died during the invasion phase of the conflict. That would imply deaths directly caused from fighting and war.

keep trying.. here is the actual quote from WP :

A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum bound of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 'excess' deaths from hunger and illness.

You mean like Iran (where I posted the 'rights' Jews and Christians have on this thread already) or Saudi Arabia where being Jewish is illegal or Pakistan where a Christian man was arrested because his first name was "Jew"?



http://tribune.com.pk/story/318741/t...an-in-trouble/

you can pick out as many isolated cases as you like, but that doesnt get you a pogrom still, unlike Bosnia or Palestine before that..

But seriously, you're still claiming that Jews weren't forced or compelled to leave the much of the Muslim world following the creation of Israel?

Are you being serious here? It would take all of two seconds to find overwhelming evidence of pogroms and government sponsored evacuations removing Jews from the Muslim world before and after the creation of Israel.

the major pogrom that I know of is the one directed at the original inhabitants of the Holy Land.. Do you really think people here are naive or are you still daydreaming?

[ProphetofTolerance]

as you yourself admit there are no Christian locals, so why would they have churches ?

Probably for the hundreds of thousands of Christians who live and work in Saudi Arabia.

Funny. You were previously saying SA's 'harsh' laws didn't apply to expats. So they do or don't? If they don't, why were these Christians arrested then? And can Christians gather legally to worship? What about a single gender worship service? Is that allowed?

keep trying.. here is the actual quote from WP :

That's one source. The same one you cited before. The first source in the article I quoted says 60,000 may have been killed (rather than died) during the invasion phase within the first year of the war:

Operation Komodo, a general invasion of East Timor, commenced the next day. In the following weeks a series of United Nations resolutions—supported by the U.S.—called for the withdrawal of the Indonesian troops.(16) An estimated 20,000 Indonesian troops were deployed to the region by the end of the month. While casualty estimates vary, anywhere from 60,000-100,000 Timorese were probably killed in the first year after the violence began in 1975.(17) In 1979 the U.S. Agency for International Development estimated that 300,000 East Timorese—nearly half the population—had been uprooted and moved into camps controlled by Indonesian armed forces. By 1980 the occupation had left more than 100,000 dead from military action, starvation or disease, with some estimates running as high as 230,000.(18)

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB62/

"uprooted"...wait, what were you saying about forced displacement?

you can pick out as many isolated cases as you like, but that doesnt get you a pogrom still, unlike Bosnia or Palestine before that..

I didn't cite any pogroms but mentioned countries with discriminatory laws against Jews and Christians.

It's funny; you were dead wrong on Jews and Muslim Spain and Maimonides and you'll be dead wrong about Jews and the contemporary Muslim world forcing them out.

the major pogrom that I know of is the one directed at the original inhabitants of the Holy Land.. Do you really think people here are naive or are you still daydreaming?

Why don't you read up on the Jewish exodus from the Muslim world?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_...slim_countries

[shaad_lko]

Probably for the hundreds of thousands of Christians who live and work in Saudi Arabia.

Funny. You were previously saying SA's 'harsh' laws didn't apply to expats. So they do or don't? If they don't, why were these Christians arrested then? And can Christians gather legally to worship? What about a single gender worship service? Is that allowed?

The article you posted is specifically talking about mixed gathering. expats from a certain geography have it very good in KSA while all browns/blacks are looked down upon - it doesnt establish religious persecution in the least, and even if it did there is no pogrom going on there.

That's one source. The same one you cited before. The first source in the article I quoted says 60,000 may have been killed (rather than died) during the invasion phase within the first year of the war:



http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB62/

"uprooted"...wait, what were you saying about forced displacement?

then first you should reconcile the sources. And mine is the one from the WP article. Now, at the end of the day, no one is justifying what happened in East Timor, however the only ones becoming the new Jews are the Muslims themselves, whether it is in Palestine or Iraq or Afghanistan or in Bosnia. btw, Indonesia has killed thousands in Aceh too, which were their brethren in faith..

I didn't cite any pogroms but mentioned countries with discriminatory laws against Jews and Christians

.
which is pointless considering the title of your thread..

It's funny; you were dead wrong on Jews and Muslim Spain and Maimonides and you'll be dead wrong about Jews and the contemporary Muslim world forcing them out.



Why don't you read up on the Jewish exodus from the Muslim world?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_...slim_countries

its funny that you are daydreaming about my being wrong, when the title of your thread itself has been proven biased and dead fish.. Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries is really a joke, considering the problem of Palestine..
Ask any reliable historian, he'll tell you taht the Iberian Muslim rule was the golden period in the history of the Jews.

[ProphetofTolerance]

however the only ones becoming the new Jews are the Muslims themselves, whether it is in Palestine or Iraq or Afghanistan or in Bosnia. btw, Indonesia has killed thousands in Aceh too, which were their brethren in faith..

Let's look at the discriminatory laws in various countries that discriminate against Christians/Muslims then look at the body count.

To my knowledge, more Christians have been killed in East Timor than Muslims in 'Palestine'. More Christians have been killed in South Sudan than Iraq, Afghanistan and Bosnia - combined.

it doesnt establish religious persecution in the least, and even if it did there is no pogrom going on there.

Even if there is persecution?

Just answer the question - Are churches allowed to be built/exist and Bibles to be owned in Saudi Arabia?

Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries is really a joke, considering the problem of Palestine..

The depopulation of over 90% of the Jewish community in the Muslim world doesn't seem like a joke to me.

Ask any reliable historian, he'll tell you taht the Iberian Muslim rule was the golden period in the history of the Jews.

You would have known about Jewish persecution under the Almohads and Maimonides' flight from Andalusia/North Africa if you actually read *reliable* historians.

[shaad_lko]

now, you're shifting goalposts by moving away from the thread title to discriminatory laws - Saudi Arabia has discriminatory laws against non-Saudi Muslims too, which is something that you are unable to digest..

The depopulation of over 90% of the Jewish community in the Muslim world doesn't seem like a joke to me.

Why was Israel created in the first place? To be a homeland for Jews, so it makes sense they would want to go there..

You would have known about Jewish persecution under the Almohads and Maimonides' flight from Andalusia/North Africa if you actually read *reliable* historians.

So, in between the golden period of Jews under Muslim rule in Spain and subsequently Maimonedes taking up residence in Saladin's kingdom, you have a stricter regime under the Almohads, and you call that Muslim persecution of Jews ? This is the real joke here..

[ProphetofTolerance]

now, you're shifting goalposts by moving away from the thread title to discriminatory laws -

No I'm not. Read the OP:

In most Muslim countries, Christian citizens are treated as second class citizens and discriminated against or have fewer rights than Muslims.

And why would it be off topic? If Jews experienced discriminatory laws as Christians in the Muslim world do today, then pointing this fact out to show that Christians are the new Jews is completely on topic.

You don't seem to make a lot of sense.

Saudi Arabia has discriminatory laws against non-Saudi Muslims too, which is something that you are unable to digest..

Are Mosques and Korans legal in Saudi Arabia? Please stay on topic. You still haven't answered my question on churches and Bibles being allowed in Saudi Arabia.

Why was Israel created in the first place? To be a homeland for Jews, so it makes sense they would want to go there..

And Palestinian Arabs would want to go where they could have their own homeland. Interesting logic. Let's see if you apply it consistently.

So, in between the golden period of Jews under Muslim rule in Spain and subsequently Maimonedes taking up residence in Saladin's kingdom, you have a stricter regime under the Almohads, and you call that Muslim persecution of Jews ? This is the real joke here..

Yes, I call forced compulsion, expulsion, etc of Jews and Christians persecution. What other names would you describe it as?

[shaad_lko]

No I'm not. Read the OP:

there is a term for this kind of rhetoric. You can check it here, or for more jargon here..

Where the thread collapses under its weight is the fact that you have singularly failed to prove the existence of any discrimination against Jews in Muslim nations. Now, to compare something (the alleged discrimination against Christians) to a non-existent entity, while conveniently overlooking the Holocaust is nothing but a dead fish, as I mentioned some posts ago. It is a classic case of dialectical manipulation, though I am not sure if you're doing it in a self-aware state.

Are Mosques and Korans legal in Saudi Arabia? Please stay on topic. You still haven't answered my question on churches and Bibles being allowed in Saudi Arabia.

You seem to be missing the key point here - by and large the only people who have it good in KSA are either the white expats or the sheikhs themselves. So it is not at all religion-based discrimination, it is pure and simple racial discrimination. Muslims from Indo-Pak, Christians from Ethiopia all would have it bad..

And Palestinian Arabs would want to go where they could have their own homeland. Interesting logic. Let's see if you apply it consistently.

Yes they do. However, they are not permitted to - good try..

Yes, I call forced compulsion, expulsion, etc of Jews and Christians persecution. What other names would you describe it as?

No there is still no proof of forced compulsion (a funny term - forced compulsion), the only place where we could say something like that happened was in the Holocaust - so forced compulsion of Jews by Christians.. however, you are the one not acknowledging that and hence you should admit to being anti-Semitic..

Also, before you start getting agitated and all worked up, you should calmly digest the fact that you have no locus-standi to discuss this topic given the track-record of Christian nations in discriminating against the colonized or the outcasts (viz, Muslims and Jews). You know what happens to one who throws pebbles at others while his own house is made of glass?