No music??

[shaad_lko]

Is that the royal "we"-some muslims would say that everything the Prophet-pbuh did,is advisable to follow and must be in line with Gods will.

Imho, its more of overflowing love for the Prophet (pbuh) in that any Muslim would try to imitate him, his manners and his ways. Also, some people have a love for tradition, and would like to wear traditional clothes, use Meswak, etc - there is nothing wrong with these tendencies, so long as we do not start calling them obligatory for the general population.

Though from an Islamic pov, one has to be balanced and excessive veneration of such practices may even lead one to lose sight of the real obligations of faith.

[real eslam]

Shaad_lko thanks for another word u used that is about balance.Can you suggest me how to
keep balance between the body and soul with the songs?

[Free Your Mind]

First we have to understand the meaning of music before we can even go on and discuss it. Music or "mooseeqa" in Arabic means the art of making pleasing combinations of sounds in rhythm , harmony and counterpoint. It is a general and modern term that doesn't exist in the orthodox Arabic language. So no one can say outright music is haraam since there's no clear-cut ayah or sahih hadith prohibiting it.

Now we have to get into the technicality. Music that contains haraam is haraam. This includes everything that Allah and his messenger [s] has prohibited upon us. Like a song talking about worshiping other things besides Allah, sex, drinking, missing their boyfriend or girlfriends etc. that has basically became the most discussed topics today in songs. Anythign hat takes us away from the remembrance of Allah are no doubt Haraam.

Regarding instruments, many of the ayahs used are misinterpreted and the hadiths are not authentic. One of the famous would be from Sahih al Bukhari, Book of Drink, narrated by Abu Aamr or Abu Maalik where Allah's Messenger said:

لَيَكُونَنَّ مِنْ أُمَّتِي أَقْوَامٌ يَسْتَحِلُّونَ الْحِرَ وَالْحَرِيرَ وَالْخَمْرَ وَالْمَعَازِفَ، وَلَيَنْزِلَنَّ أَقْوَامٌ إِلَى جَنْبِ عَلَمٍ يَرُوحُ عَلَيْهِمْ بِسَارِحَةٍ لَهُمْ، يَأْتِيهِمْ ـ يَعْنِي الْفَقِيرَ ـ لِحَاجَةٍ فَيَقُولُوا ارْجِعْ إِلَيْنَا غَدًا‏.‏ فَيُبَيِّتُهُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَضَعُ الْعَلَمَ، وَيَمْسَخُ آخَرِينَ قِرَدَةً وَخَنَازِيرَ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ


Now the word here many people translate to prohibiting musical instruments is "alm'Aaazif". If you look at the root of this word, it actually means string instruments.

Some imams of hadith have also disputed the authenticity of this hadith and also on the context of its application. But from the apparent it's not referring to all instruments, just strings.

Allahu Alim.

[real eslam]

I like your signature F Y M.A Mumin can't continue the relations with the Kafirs.
But you mentioned the people.All the people are not Kafir.Is it the right word you
wanted to use?

[Hawkeye]

There are several thousand musical styles, some going back centuries before Islam existed and to call them all forbidden seems to be taking dogmatism to absurd lengths. For example, there is bird song, that cannot be banned and cannot be avoided and it has been turned into conventional classical music. Similarly, is any rational person with an ounce of humanity going to say that singing a lullaby to a sick child to comfort them is wrong? One wonders reading the posts if there is any real logic or even common sense is saying everything your prophet liked or did not like must be your likes and dislikes. Putting it simply, if your prophet liked coffee there seems no imperative to me that therefore liking coffe is a good thing and therefore I must like it.

[shaad_lko]

There are several thousand musical styles, some going back centuries before Islam existed and to call them all forbidden seems to be taking dogmatism to absurd lengths. For example, there is bird song, that cannot be banned and cannot be avoided and it has been turned into conventional classical music. Similarly, is any rational person with an ounce of humanity going to say that singing a lullaby to a sick child to comfort them is wrong? One wonders reading the posts if there is any real logic or even common sense is saying everything your prophet liked or did not like must be your likes and dislikes. Putting it simply, if your prophet liked coffee there seems no imperative to me that therefore liking coffe is a good thing and therefore I must like it.

While I do not believe that all music is forbidden, I think its natural for a believer to follow in the Prophet's footsteps - its part of the existence of a Muslim and impossible to understand (I guess) for one who has not accepted Islam yet. If the Prophet (sws) liked coffee, the goodness would not be in liking coffee, but in the overflowing love for the Prophet (sws) - love knows no bounds, and most Muslims do it out of love - though I admit that some take it to extremes by trying to transform it into a moral good. In any case, there is no compulsion in Islam and one who does so is denying the methodology of the Prophet (sws) himself.

[Hawkeye]

While I do not believe that all music is forbidden, I think its natural for a believer to follow in the Prophet's footsteps - its part of the existence of a Muslim and impossible to understand (I guess) for one who has not accepted Islam yet. If the Prophet (sws) liked coffee, the goodness would not be in liking coffee, but in the overflowing love for the Prophet (sws) - love knows no bounds, and most Muslims do it out of love - though I admit that some take it to extremes by trying to transform it into a moral good. In any case, there is no compulsion in Islam and one who does so is denying the methodology of the Prophet (sws) himself.

I see what you mean but if we are to follow example then logically we need the circumstances to be the same and this is almost never the case. I am not saying we should ignore example but the notion that every example is in some way perfect is to my mind idolatry - one only has to follow child marriage in Islam to see what I mean about your prophets example. In the Christian faith we don't look for example but teaching and it's the teaching we follow. So Christians or Jews for that matter never say Jesus or Moses did this or that so I must follow it.

[shaad_lko]

I see what you mean but if we are to follow example then logically we need the circumstances to be the same and this is almost never the case. Iam not saying we should ignore example but the notion that every example is in some way perfect is tommy mind idolatry. In the Christian faith we don't look for xample but teaching and it's the teaching we follow.

philosophically, although it may be difficult to grasp, but stating that the Prophet (sws)'s examples were somehow imperfect could also be one form of idolatry - the idolatry of the ego, the idolatry of believing that a Divinely ordained Prophet could somehow be imperfect. So the argument can be contested either way... Idolatry is turning away from the One True Source of all existence - any turning away from the Prophet's life is also the same.

Albeit I accept your premise that circumstances may sometimes be different and one needs to carefully think through before applying the Prophetic example in the present life. I guess that is where Christianity and Islam should acknowledge the other tradition's distinctiveness and part ways..

[Hawkeye]

philosophically, although it may be difficult to grasp, but stating that the Prophet (sws)'s examples were somehow imperfect could also be one form of idolatry - the idolatry of the ego, the idolatry of believing that a Divinely ordained Prophet could somehow be imperfect. So the argument can be contested either way... Idolatry is turning away from the One True Source of all existence - any turning away from the Prophet's life is also the same.

Albeit I accept your premise that circumstances may sometimes be different and one needs to carefully think through before applying the Prophetic example in the present life. I guess that is where Christianity and Islam should acknowledge the other tradition's distinctiveness and part ways..

Idolatry can be just about anything that massages our ego and anything that focuses on 'me' automatically turns is away from God: sport, tv, our own knowledge, anything. But it does seem to me that focusing as you do on the example of a man is bound to lead to difficulties. It is also true as you indicate that some goto extremes, even tothe effect that they start aruing for what yiur prophet did not do. If Muslims took your injunction to to think through each example carefully then I don't think I would have a problem with that but almost no Muslim will say that in my experience. Don't you think though that focusing so much on Mohammed you take your eye off God himself?

[shaad_lko]

Idolatry can be just about anything that massages our ego and anything that focuses on 'me' automatically turns is away from God: sport, tv, our own knowledge, anything. But it does seem to me that focusing as you do on the example of a man is bound to lead to difficulties. It is also true as you indicate that some goto extremes, even tothe effect that they start aruing for what yiur prophet did not do. If Muslims took your injunction to to think through each example carefully then I don't think I would have a problem with that but almost no Muslim will say that in my experience.

Imho, the extremism is not necessarily due to following the Prophetic example to perfection. Extremism is a misunderstanding and an inversion of religion which can occur due to several reasons - primary cause of this is atomism and not focusing on the whole picture. A sense of proportion is one of the essential elements of the Din of Islam.

My other suspicion is that you have formed your opinion of Islam primarily on the basis of media reports which is not exactly a very wise thing to do..

Don't you think though that focusing so much on Mohammed you take your eye off God himself?

The only way to reach God for a believer is to focus on the personality of the one who was chosen to deliver the message.. The answer to your question should be seen in a broader context - any dilution of the Prophet's importance simply means Islam does not exist.. The reference point for everything in Islam is the Prophet himself - at best you can question whether an action is rightly attributed to the Prophet or not..

[Hawkeye]

Imho, the extremism is not necessarily due to following the Prophetic example to perfection. Extremism is a misunderstanding and an inversion of religion which can occur due to several reasons - primary cause of this is atomism and not focusing on the whole picture. A sense of proportion is one of the essential elements of the Din of Islam.
My other suspicion is that you have formed your opinion of Islam primarily on the basis of media reports which is not exactly a very wise thing to do..

The only way to reach God for a believer is to focus on the personality of the one who was chosen to deliver the message.. The answer to your question should be seen in a broader context - any dilution of the Prophet's importance simply means Islam does not exist.. The reference point for everything in Islam is the Prophet himself - at best you can question whether an action is rightly attributed to the Prophet or not..

The issue with extremism is often the basis on which is formed. If that basis is what someone believes God has said then they claim authority and there is nothing worse that this kind of mindlessness. You can believe what you like about how I formed my opinions of Islam but I have spent considerable time in the middle east and read very widely including Muslim classics such as The Reliance of the Traveller, lus I have 5 translations of the Quran. I don't know of course but most Muslims I come across rarely read any books at all and indeed reading stats from Muslim countries confirm this. One only has to read say the Facebook page for Dr Naik created by his followers to see that Muslims will believe anything as long as it sounds as if it props up Islam.

From a Christian and I think Jewish perspective the whole focus is on God's word not the messenger. For example, in the Psalms we find example after of example ofthe believers delight in God's word and one never finds adoration of people. It seems to me that of what you say is true then your prophet stands in the place of God.

[shaad_lko]

The issue with extremism is often the basis on which is formed. If that basis is what someone believes God has said then they claim authority and there is nothing worse that this kind of mindlessness.

The problem is not in believing what God has said- the problem is in becoming a final authority in religion and in Islam this problem doesnt exist because of the Finality of Prophethood. There is no clergy in Islam either (in the sense of the church), thus the issue of secularism cannot be mapped on to the world of Islam as a similar problem to what the Christian world experienced. Extremism also occurs in modern societies when you say "its my way or the highway", so its not an exclusive Muslim problem either. Secular extremists are the worst of the lot in any case - many people find nudity and homosexuality reprehensible yet the same are legalized due to liberal excess..

You can believe what you like about how I formed my opinions of Islam but I have spent considerable time in the middle east and read very widely including Muslim classics such as The Reliance of the Traveller, lus I have 5 translations of the Quran. I don't know of course but most Muslims I come across rarely read any books at all and indeed reading stats from Muslim countries confirm this. One only has to read say the Facebook page for Dr Naik created by his followers to see that Muslims will believe anything as long as it sounds as if it props up Islam.

Oh, so my suspicions are indeed confirmed -a facebook fan page, stats from Muslim countries (I wonder which source?) and Reliance of the Traveller (which incidentally is a patently incorrect book for you to read since its focus is on jurisprudence not understanding Islam for a Christians). You dont really need to go to the ME to understand Islam - I am sure there would be enough Muslims in your own land.. smart work as opposed to hard work will get you there inshaAllah

From a Christian and I think Jewish perspective the whole focus is on God's word not the messenger. For example, in the Psalms we find example after of example ofthe believers delight in God's word and one never finds adoration of people. It seems to me that of what you say is true then your prophet stands in the place of God.

A friend pointed out that how ironical it is for a Trinitarian Christian to be arguing about Muslims hooked on to the personality of the Prophet (sws) !!

[Hawkeye]

Shard-Iko
You seem to be going round in circles because you rely entirely on the words and actions of one man, one fallible man. Even the Quran is third hand and there were no witnesses to what wae supposedly said by the angel. No matter what your prophet said or did you will not criticise it only excuse it. There is a simple test of extremism and it's simply to ask would Islam force it's views on others and the answer is a resounding yes for Muslim countries typically ban everything but Islam. In western society we don't say my religon is good therefore you must accept it we say instead that you can choose your religon and I mine. If youhad power would you encourage the building of churches ortemples? I don't see secularists or christians bombing mosques and churches in Iraq or Egypt - the only common factor is Islam so it must be to blame

[Hawkeye]

Shaad-Iko - why is it that Muslims always assume that non-Muslims are ignorant, I rather expected or hoped better things from you. One of the reasons I visit Facebook pages with regard to Islam is I want to see what the average Muslims thinks or knows and it is a very disappointing experience - just look through any of those Facebook pages or this discussion board and see for example how often a book of any sort is cited and you will find its close to zero. Indeed, Muslims will cheer anything that props up Islam even if it is patently wrong (I can give example if you wish). There is no shortage of books on Islam and host become a Muslim and I have read several so your charge is unfounded. I have been to lectures by supposedly knowledgable Muslims (plenty on utube) and that again is a depressing experience. One example will suffice which occured in a University settng. Firstly, the speaker claimed the heart could think and secondly he told the students that they must stick with their parents even if they are abusive. In short your suspicions are unfounded.

[Hawkeye]

Shaad-Iko - were revere God and his message so can't quite see the irony there. Christians and Jewshave no equivalent of the saying and doings of a prophet and our focus is n what God has said and it's meaning. As you may know several recent books have cast serious doubt on the historicity of Islam and the absence of early documents yet you focus entirely on this one man - even if I quoted the books you would not read them would you?