What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

[patrick]

Ok so no Muslims know why allah faked the crucifixion?

If allah was trying to protect Jesus why not just take HIM as this verse says:
004.158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

When did allah let Jesus back down on earth or is Jesus still in heaven?

In faking the crucifixion there was a whole religion created around the crucifixion and resurrection event. Did allah not know this was going to happen? Did he plan to mislead so many people? Why?

Please reference verse that show Jesus mother, Disciples and followers were aware that Jesus was not crucified.

[Moonlight]

That doesn't make sence though cause the first gospel was written Around 68 -70AD which was Mark. Unless we are dealing with oral*traditions.
Timothy was written around 160 AD (but this has been debated among historians and others.)

I tend to leave things like this alone cause the true message is:

Jesus answered, “The most important is: ‘Listen, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:29-31 NET)

All religions teaches this truth. It's easy to find errors in text and attack other peoples beliefs to try win them over.*

"The One Truth the sages call by many names.” ~ Rig Veda

[patrick]

That doesn't make sence though cause the first gospel was written Around 68 -70AD which was Mark. Unless we are dealing with oral*traditions.
Timothy was written around 160 AD (but this has been debated among historians and others.)

I tend to leave things like this alone cause the true message is:

Jesus answered, “The most important is: ‘Listen, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:29-31 NET)

All religions teaches this truth. It's easy to find errors in text and attack other peoples beliefs to try win them over.*

"The One Truth the sages call by many names.” ~ Rig Veda

How could Paul write Timothy after his death. Those facts are off.

Here are the most accurate dates:
Matthew: A.D. 60-65
Mark: A.D. 55-65
Luke: A.D. 60
John: A.D. 85-90
Acts: A.D. 63-70
Romans: A.D. 57
1 Corinthians: A.D. 55
2 Corinthians: A.D. 55-57
Galatians: A.D. 49
Ephesians: A.D. 60
Philippians: A.D. 61
Colossians: A.D. 60
1 Thessalonians: A.D. 51
2 Thessalonians: A.D. 51-52
1 Timothy: A.D. 64
2 Timothy: A.D. 66/67
Titus: A.D. 64
Philemon: A.D. 60
Hebrews: A.D. 70 (prior to Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70)
James: A.D. 49 (prior to the Jerusalem council of A.D. 50)
1 Peter: A.D. 62-64
2 Peter: A.D. 67
1 John: A.D. 85-90
2 John: A.D. 90
3 John: A.D. 90
Jude: A.D. 65
Revelation: A.D. 95

[naderM]

Ok so no Muslims know why allah faked the crucifixion?

If allah was trying to protect Jesus why not just take HIM as this verse says:
004.158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

When did allah let Jesus back down on earth or is Jesus still in heaven?

In faking the crucifixion there was a whole religion created around the crucifixion and resurrection event. Did allah not know this was going to happen? Did he plan to mislead so many people? Why?

Please reference verse that show Jesus mother, Disciples and followers were aware that Jesus was not crucified.

Of course, right after you show evidence that the crucifiction occured. It has already been established that no extra biblical evidence exists, so lets turn to your Gospels and verify their credibility:

Bring the names of those who witnessed the crucifiction and reported it to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John knowing that according to your NT's unknown authors:
- the disciples did not witness anything but Jesus' arrest by the Romans
- among the disciples only Peter saw Jesus' questionning by the high priest at the courtyard (putting aside all factual blunder by your NT's unknown authors because the high priest never headed the Sanhedrin, never met at night as said in Matt26:57,Mk14:53 or in secret, required two eye witnesses to pass the death penalty, and met in the Chamber of Hewn Stones in the Temple which had been destroyed prior to Jesus' supposed execution)
- none of the disciples saw or were present at Jesus' alleged public beating, humiliation and crucifixion

[patrick]

Of course, right after you show evidence that the crucifiction occured. It has already been established that no extra biblical evidence exists, so lets turn to your Gospels and verify their credibility:

Bring the names of those who witnessed the crucifiction and reported it to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John knowing that according to your NT's unknown authors:
- the disciples did not witness anything but Jesus' arrest by the Romans
- among the disciples only Peter saw Jesus' questionning by the high priest at the courtyard (putting aside all factual blunder by your NT's unknown authors because the high priest never headed the Sanhedrin, never met at night as said in Matt26:57,Mk14:53 or in secret, required two eye witnesses to pass the death penalty, and met in the Chamber of Hewn Stones in the Temple which had been destroyed prior to Jesus' supposed execution)
- none of the disciples saw or were present at Jesus' alleged public beating, humiliation and crucifixion

JESUS PROPHECIES his DEATH:
Matthew 16
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Luke 18
31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”

John 12
30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

Biblical Witnesses:
Matthew 27
54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”
55 Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. 56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons
57 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him.

John 19
25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
...
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

Centaurian/soldiers would have been severely punished if Jesus had not died:
Mark 15
43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. 44 Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already
...
57 Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: 58 “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.’”

Historian accounts
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/docum...of%20Jesus.htm
Please note the statement: By Josephus ben Mattathias(also known as Flavius Josephus is thought to be a forgery.

Matthew 26
60...Finally two came forward 61 and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”

Mark 15
1 Very early in the morning, the chief priests, with the elders, the teachers of the law and the whole Sanhedrin, made their plans. So they bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.

Matthew 27
1 Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed. 2 So they bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor.

[naderM]

You didnt get it. I asked for the names of those who witnessed the crucifiction and reported it to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John knowing that according to your NT's unknown authors:
- the disciples did not witness anything but Jesus' arrest by the Romans
- among the disciples only Peter saw Jesus' questionning by the high priest at the courtyard (putting aside all factual blunder by your NT's unknown authors because the high priest never headed the Sanhedrin, never met at night as said in Matt26:57,Mk14:53 or in secret, required two eye witnesses to pass the death penalty, and met in the Chamber of Hewn Stones in the Temple which had been destroyed prior to Jesus' supposed execution)
- none of the disciples saw or were present at Jesus' alleged public beating, humiliation and crucifixion

As regards to the "beloved disciple", this isnt a name and neither is there is any proof that this unnamed disciple mentionned by John's Gospel's writer (mentionned in the 3rd person by the way, why would John mention himself in the 3rd person?) is John the son of Zebedee. That traditional interpretation is still a matter of dispute among scholars. Also, the other gospels dont mention a "disciple whom Jesus loved". They also say nothing about any disciple or any women being near the cross, or talking with Jesus while he was on the cross. The other Gospels only mention a group of women watching the scene from a distant place. Accepting this for argument's sake, unlike his male followers, these women would probably have been allowed to watch without being arrested, provided that they didn't try to interfere. Execution sites were guarded by Romans who would certainly not allow access to the followers and accomplices of one who was supposedly executed for being a political agitator that could threaten the state Matt27:37,Mk15:26,Luke23:38,Jn19:19-22. During the years when Jesus was growing up, many people believed that the End Times necessary for the appearance of the warrior king Messiah per the OT had already arrived, and that this liberator would soon organize a revolt against the hated Romans and drive them out of the country. The Romans were fully aware of this and were constantly on the look out for rebel leaders and their accomplices in a time where uprisings against the state were more frequent in Palestine than any other part of the Empire.
This is why Jesus warned his disciples not to tell anyone he is the Messiah Matt16:20 even though his mission was certainly not to fulfill the conflated role of a warrior king depicted in Jewish scriptures, but the Romans could interpret his intentions as such.
That is the reason why, at the time of his arrest by the Romans and with the complicity of the Jewish leaders who did not recognize in Jesus their conflated warrior king Messiah, all of Jesus' close apostles are reported to have fled with Peter even denying he knew Jesus 3 times, because Jesus and his close followers were now outlaws wanted by the state.
There are various theories on the identiy of that unknown and unnamed male disciple "whom Jesus loved" that allegedly stood near Jesus on the cross. According to the NT, he was one of the unknown eyewitnesses who recounted the event to the several unknown writers of the Gospel of John, as attested by the text Jn21:24"This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true".

Who are "we" and who is the one whose testimony is believed to be true?

As regards the historical accounts you brought, refer to my post on the first page that proves how the passages in Tacitus (who lived after JEsus meaning he only relied on hearsay, even if we take the passage attributed to him as authentic) and Josephus are forgeries (your link even admits on how the latter caused centuries of debates among your own scholars). The other quoted historians are not contemporaries nor eyewitnesses meaning they had no independent sources and relied upon Christian sources, common knowledge etc, and besides none of them speak of the crucifixion. Regarding the Talmud quote, it is actually speaking of an individual that lived long after Jesus (almost a century) who was stoned by a Jewish court and not crucified by the Roman government like Jesus. And besides tyou would have to reconcile the person's hanging on the eve of passover with Matthew 26:18-20; Mark 14:16-18; Luke 22:13-15 all stating he was actually crucified ON passover. More there http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesusnarr.html

So where is the evidence by any contemporary historian for the dramatization surrounding Jesus' death found in Matt27:45,51,52 with the eclipse, earthquake and deads coming back to life (where did they all go by the way, did they just keep wandering around for some time like zombies in the streets of Jerusalem?), besides other spectacular events such as Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, his witnessed ascencion to heaven and other various wonderful displays allegedly seen by many?

[patrick]

-...

Oh yes, what is it about women and witnessing in Islam? Muslims don't value the testimony of women? There has to be 4 and here there are only 3?

A rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus, and John the disciple Jesus loved.

The Temple was destroyed 70AD a few decades after Jesus' crucifixion. Does it say something different in the Quran? Please reference.

So the Quran has NO 3rd person statements? Interesting!!

We = the other Disciples, followers and eyewitnesses of Jesus' life, crucifixion and resurrection. [Now who were witness that heard Gabriel's revelations to Mohammad?]

The Quran confirms the Gospel message- It causes a real dilemma for Muslims.

OK so you really believe the crucifixion didn't take place.

To what end did allah fake Jesus' crucifixion?

When did allah let Jesus back down on earth or is Jesus still in heaven?

In faking the crucifixion there was a whole religion created around the crucifixion and resurrection event.

Did allah not know this was going to happen? Did he plan to mislead so many people? Why?

Please reference verse that show Jesus mother, Disciples and followers were aware that Jesus was not crucified.

[naderM]

The women are not the ones who recounted the events to the unknown Gospel writers, they are simply pictured as being present at the scene by some unknown eyewitnesses. Who is the one who reported the crucifiction to the "we" who wrote John's Gospel. Who are "we"? You're being asked for names specifically because those who allegedly wrote the Gospels (Mark, Matthew, John, Luke) were not present during the crucifixion meaning your entire system is based on shady hearsay, inconsistent from Gospel to Gospel (for example, they dont even agree whether JEsus was crucified on the eve of passover or ON the day of passover itself), unsupported by facts (such as the ones about Jewish court procedures) or extra biblical historians (still waiting for a single report of the eclipse, earthquake, deads coming back to life and wandering arorund the streets of Jerusalem, besides other spectacular events such as Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, his witnessed ascencion to heaven and other various wonderful displays allegedly seen by many)...

What does Joseph of Arimathea have anything to do with the discussion? How does the destruction of the Temple constitute proof for Jesus' crucifiction

Before you bring evidence or prove the credibility of the crucifiction with its surrounding wonderful events allegedly witnessed by so many (it should therefore be an easy task to prove), we cannot get into the discussion as to whether YHWH faked the crucifiction or not, as well as give the Quran verses where YHWH shows that Jesus' close entourage were aware that he was saved from dying at the hands of the disbelievers

[theman09]

why do the jews in acts think that peters claim that the jews killed jesus WAS "RAMBLINGS OF AN ILLITERATE COMMONER"

now how can a bloody event of public note and exposure become "ramblings of an illiterate commoner" to the jews?

they say to peter , " you EVEN want to lay this mans BLOOD ON US"

peter in acts says that he was an WITNESS to the murder of jesus NOT THAT THE JEWS WERE WITNESSES to the murder of jesus. MAN , this is strange stuff.


lets just assume that jesus was MURDERED by the romans bcause he done "sacriligious" practice to roman business in the temple. how does that prove that todays christianity was accepted by the aramaic speakers ? we only have GREEK reduplication of what aramaic speakers thought and did.




paul the apostate decorated the murder of jesus using jewish scripture.
paul is taking his MURDERED jesus to new chruches where the gospels had not been taught
Rom. 15:20 & 2 Cor 10:16

you would think that he make ref to how jews controlled pontius pilate in doing thier dirty deed in having innocent puppy god murdered in place of barnabus, but paul is SILENT on these details.

[patrick]

The women are not the ones who recounted the events to the unknown Gospel writers, they are simply pictured as being present at the scene by some unknown eyewitnesses. Who is the one who reported the crucifiction to the "we" who wrote John's Gospel. Who are "we"? You're being asked for names specifically because those who allegedly wrote the Gospels (Mark, Matthew, John, Luke) were not present during the crucifixion meaning your entire system is based on shady hearsay, inconsistent from Gospel to Gospel (for example, they dont even agree whether JEsus was crucified on the eve of passover or ON the day of passover itself), unsupported by facts (such as the ones about Jewish court procedures) or extra biblical historians (still waiting for a single report of the eclipse, earthquake, deads coming back to life and wandering arorund the streets of Jerusalem, besides other spectacular events such as Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, his witnessed ascencion to heaven and other various wonderful displays allegedly seen by many)...

What does Joseph of Arimathea have anything to do with the discussion? How does the destruction of the Temple constitute proof for Jesus' crucifiction

Before you bring evidence or prove the credibility of the crucifiction with its surrounding wonderful events allegedly witnessed by so many (it should therefore be an easy task to prove), we cannot get into the discussion as to whether YHWH faked the crucifiction or not, as well as give the Quran verses where YHWH shows that Jesus' close entourage were aware that he was saved from dying at the hands of the disbelievers

Of course the destruction of the Temple does not prove jesus' crucifixion I was simply correcting your statement -
"met in the Chamber of Hewn Stones in the Temple which had been destroyed prior to Jesus' supposed execution)"

Joseph of Arimathea is an eyewitness. He took Jesus' body to his burial tomb.

OK so Muslims believe the crucifixion didn't take place.

To what end did allah fake Jesus' crucifixion?

When did allah let Jesus back down on earth or is Jesus still in heaven?

In faking the crucifixion there was a whole religion created around the crucifixion and resurrection event.

Did allah not know this was going to happen? Did he plan to mislead so many people? Why?

Please reference verse that show Jesus mother, Disciples and followers were aware that Jesus was not crucified.

[patrick]

why do the jews in acts think that peters claim that the jews killed jesus WAS "RAMBLINGS OF AN ILLITERATE COMMONER"

now how can a bloody event of public note and exposure become "ramblings of an illiterate commoner" to the jews?

they say to peter , " you EVEN want to lay this mans BLOOD ON US"

peter in acts says that he was an WITNESS to the murder of jesus NOT THAT THE JEWS WERE WITNESSES to the murder of jesus. MAN , this is strange stuff.


lets just assume that jesus was MURDERED by the romans bcause he done "sacriligious" practice to roman business in the temple. how does that prove that todays christianity was accepted by the aramaic speakers ? we only have GREEK reduplication of what aramaic speakers thought and did.




paul the apostate decorated the murder of jesus using jewish scripture.
paul is taking his MURDERED jesus to new chruches where the gospels had not been taught
Rom. 15:20 & 2 Cor 10:16

you would think that he make ref to how jews controlled pontius pilate in doing thier dirty deed in having innocent puppy god murdered in place of barnabus, but paul is SILENT on these details.

OK so Muslims believe the crucifixion didn't take place.

To what end did allah fake Jesus' crucifixion?

When did allah let Jesus back down on earth or is Jesus still in heaven?

In faking the crucifixion there was a whole religion created around the crucifixion and resurrection event.

Did allah not know this was going to happen? Did he plan to mislead so many people? Why?

Please reference verse that show Jesus mother, Disciples and followers were aware that Jesus was not crucified.

[DocW]

These are the views of Amin Ahsen Islahi as stated in Taddabur Quran on this issue.

Islahi writes

Ref 3:55

In this is the mention of the best concealed scheme that God has chosen to save Christ pbuh from the conspiracy of people of Israel and as a consequence their entire scheme became totally ineffective and useless.

"Tawafi" literal meaning in dictionary is " Al akhaz bil itmaam" " ( extract something in its entirety" to completely take something back or take control of something completely). " Maut (death" ) here has not been used in its literal meaning but metaphorical meaning. Such words that have a literal and metaphorical meaning, rely on Quran to establish which meaning has been chosen.

Following are the reasons why "maut "(death) has been used in its literal meaning.

Firstly, this is an opportunity for God to give glad tidings and promise of victory to Prophet Christ pbuh and his followers. The narratives of other prophets are a testimony to this that when their nations decided to kill them , God gave them glad tidings that they will be in His protection and will prevail. In this verse if we look , the entire verse is about glad tidings and promise of victory. In this context what would be the point to say that I am going to give you death, this is what people of Israel wanted, the only difference being that death would have occurred by God rather then by their hands.

Secondly, If from this word the meaning would have been to give death , then to follow it with " Rafuka illa", these words, would have been totally un necessary. What would be the benefit of saying that I am about to give you death and then lift you towards Myself. The reason that here " Mutawafeeq " is followed by " Rafiaka illa" are clarifying the meaning of "Tawafi" that the shape of your "tawafi" would be that I will lift you towards Myself.

Thirdly, to consider that " Rafika illa " means just " Rafaa darrajaat" ( alteration of status) is not correct. In this case " Illa" becomes un necessary, in Quran no word is un necessary. If the requirement was to just suggest that his status would be accentuated then from an Arabic point of view just " Rafika" would have sufficed. "illa" would have been un necessary. In Quran where ever it has been used for " Bulandi" ( high status) it has been used without " illa".

Baqrah: 253
Araaf:176
Maryam 57

If the word " Illa" has to be correctly interpreted then " Rafika illa " can only mean that I am going to raise (lift, ascend) you towards Myself with respect and honor.

Fourthly, Quran has omitted the word " Mutawafeeq" in other places where this incident has been narrated, Quran has negated killing and crucifixion and what Quran has stated is that Christ was raised. " Bal Rafahullahu illahi" ( albeit he was lifted towards God", this is the clear description of the word " tawafi" that God lifted him towards Himself.

Quotes 4: 157-158 this verse depicts in the most appropriate manner the fate of Christ pbuh, Quran has denied with great intensity the views of those people who claimed that Christ was killed or crucified, if Christ pbuh has been given death then Quran would have clearly stated here that Christ was neither killed or crucified but was given death by God. Instead, Quran states no and furthermore, the word " tawafi" is not used here, only the words " Rafullah illahi" are used. Every knowledgeable man appreciates that after negating killing and crucifixion, this " Rafa" cannot mean death here.

[shaad_lko]

jazakAllah brother Waseem. Do you know if remaining parts of Tadabbur i Quran are under translation and publication in English ?

[DocW]

jazakAllah brother Waseem. Do you know if remaining parts of Tadabbur i Quran are under translation and publication in English ?

No bro apart from the first volume that has been translated in English.

Best regards

Waseem

[naderM]

Of course the destruction of the Temple does not prove jesus' crucifixion I was simply correcting your statement -
"met in the Chamber of Hewn Stones in the Temple which had been destroyed prior to Jesus' supposed execution)"

Joseph of Arimathea is an eyewitness. He took Jesus' body to his burial tomb.

OK so Muslims believe the crucifixion didn't take place.

To what end did allah fake Jesus' crucifixion?

When did allah let Jesus back down on earth or is Jesus still in heaven?

In faking the crucifixion there was a whole religion created around the crucifixion and resurrection event.

Did allah not know this was going to happen? Did he plan to mislead so many people? Why?

Please reference verse that show Jesus mother, Disciples and followers were aware that Jesus was not crucified.

In 28CE which is prior to Jesus' supposed execution, the Chamber of hewn stones was destroyed so the Sanhedrin moved to another room on the Temple Mount, and then into the city itself (Talmud, Shabbat 15a, Rosh haShanah 15a). Also, the Romans had removed from the Jews the right to pass the death penalty, so there were two impediments to passing a death sentence, which further shows how the entire thing is nothing but a fiction.

So to you, in the balance of credibility on which you are ready to base your entire belief system, the anonymous testimony of a man alleging that Joseph of Arimathea burried Jesus is weightier than the absence of even a single historian attesting to the wonderful and cataclysmic events surrounding the crucifiction that were allegedly witnessed by an entire city?
And no, YHWH does not say in the Quran that he faked Jesus' crucifiction. If you need a hint on who might have faked the crucifixion and resurrection, then turn first to the gentiles whom Paul had to lure, and whose belief was Mithraism. They believed the man/god Mithra was the son of God, born on the 25th of December and was visited by Persian Magi adoring him and offering gifts, had 12 disciples, was identified with the lamb, was crucified, rose from the dead on the third day, atoned for the sins of mankind, and returned to heaven. This is your religion, the one favored by the pagan Roman authority and ultimately institutionalized.