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Thread: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

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    Default What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    OK the Quran says that allah is the best of deceivers/schemers.

    What is the purpose of allah deceiving Jesus’ precious mother Mary, Jesus’ Disciples and followers, the Romans and the Jews?

    Did allah of the Quran not know that he would be causing the creation of Christianity?

    So allah of the Quran pretends to have Jesus crucified. 700 years later he says he deceived everyone.

    How is man supposed to trust allah to not come around in a few years and tell you he deceived you?

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    Default Re: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    No sir
    Frankly you are mistaken or Just maybe you simply cant understand; there is a third one which is : you are so blinded by your hate that you cant see what is in front of you -
    "And they (the disbelievers) planned(plotted) but Allah planned.And Allah is the best of all planers" You have used the word deceive, maybe you will tell us where you got it.The English word I have used is planner as it is a direct translation of the Arabic verb "makara"

    2)The Qur'an didn't say it planned against Jesus' mother nor his followers, it said And Allah planned and Allah is the best of the planners.And the Qur'an is clear on the fact that the followers knew that Jesus didn't die and wasn't on the cross; only Jesus enemies thought they had crucified him as it appeared to them that way.

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    Default Re: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    Quote Originally Posted by chatislamonline View Post
    No sir
    Frankly you are mistaken or Just maybe you simply cant understand; there is a third one which is : you are so blinded by your hate that you cant see what is in front of you -
    "And they (the disbelievers) planned(plotted) but Allah planned.And Allah is the best of all planers" You have used the word deceive, maybe you will tell us where you got it.The English word I have used is planner as it is a direct translation of the Arabic verb "makara"

    2)The Qur'an didn't say it planned against Jesus' mother nor his followers, it said And Allah planned and Allah is the best of the planners.And the Qur'an is clear on the fact that the followers knew that Jesus didn't die and wasn't on the cross; only Jesus enemies thought they had crucified him as it appeared to them that way.
    Please reference the verses that show only Jesus' enemies were fooled. Thanks.

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    Default Re: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    Quote Originally Posted by patrick View Post
    Please reference the verses that show only Jesus' enemies were fooled. Thanks.
    Since you are the one who first posted that Mary , The followers and Jesus' enemies were all fooled why don't you first give us the references then we will then give you references for our argument.

    2) There is no verse were it talks about anyone being fooled and if your memories save you right you will remember that I didn't use the word fooled/deceived so I don't have to reference anything along those lines.

    3) I did use the word planned and planner if you want reference then the verse above is reference enough( 3:54) but I will be more than happy to give you more

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    Default Re: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    Quote Originally Posted by chatislamonline View Post
    Since you are the one who first posted that Mary , The followers and Jesus' enemies were all fooled why don't you first give us the references then we will then give you references for our argument.

    2) There is no verse were it talks about anyone being fooled and if your memories save you right you will remember that I didn't use the word fooled/deceived so I don't have to reference anything along those lines.

    3) I did use the word planned and planner if you want reference then the verse above is reference enough( 3:54) but I will be more than happy to give you more
    We know according to the Holy Bible that Jesus was crucified, was placed in a tomb, appeared to many people and then ascended.

    600 years later Muslims say that the crucifixion didn't happen.

    So for 600 years allah fooled people into thinking Jesus had been crucified.

    WHY?

    Also you said that only Jesus' enemies were fooled- Please reference the verses that show only Jesus' enemies were fooled. Thanks

  6. #6

    Default Re: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    Quote Originally Posted by patrick View Post
    We know according to the Holy Bible that Jesus was crucified, was placed in a tomb, appeared to many people and then ascended.

    600 years later Muslims say that the crucifixion didn't happen.

    So for 600 years allah fooled people into thinking Jesus had been crucified.



    WHY?

    Also you said that only Jesus' enemies were fooled- Please reference the verses that show only Jesus' enemies were fooled. Thanks
    According to your initial post you said : I quote:"What is the purpose of Allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion? ...." ".....OK the Quran says that Allah is the best of deceivers/schemers.

    What is the purpose of Allah deceiving Jesus’ precious mother Mary, Jesus’ Disciples and followers, the Romans and the Jews?


    Now sir when I asked you for the references I was asking you for references from the Qur'an since the issues here is what you say is Allah fooled...

    //We know according to the Holy Bible that Jesus was crucified//

    There are many verses which say otherwise like the one where Jesus says: "As Jonas was for three days and three nights so shall the son of man for three days and three nights.( Matthew 12:40). But this is also another topic.Right now I am waiting for the verses where you got the idea that Allah FOOLED

    //Also you said that only Jesus' enemies were fooled- Please reference the verses that show only Jesus' enemies were fooled//

    Again: I never said 'only JJesus' enemies were fooled.If I did say that then please copy and paste then we can take it from there. Thank You.

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    Default Re: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    Quote Originally Posted by chatislamonline View Post
    According to your initial post you said : I quote:"What is the purpose of Allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion? ...." ".....OK the Quran says that Allah is the best of deceivers/schemers.

    What is the purpose of Allah deceiving Jesus’ precious mother Mary, Jesus’ Disciples and followers, the Romans and the Jews?


    Now sir when I asked you for the references I was asking you for references from the Qur'an since the issues here is what you say is Allah fooled...

    //We know according to the Holy Bible that Jesus was crucified//

    There are many verses which say otherwise like the one where Jesus says: "As Jonas was for three days and three nights so shall the son of man for three days and three nights.( Matthew 12:40). But this is also another topic.Right now I am waiting for the verses where you got the idea that Allah FOOLED

    //Also you said that only Jesus' enemies were fooled- Please reference the verses that show only Jesus' enemies were fooled//

    Again: I never said 'only JJesus' enemies were fooled.If I did say that then please copy and paste then we can take it from there. Thank You.
    It is the Quran not the Holy Bible that states 600 years later allah schemed and Jesus wasn't really crucified. The information will only be in the Quran if there is any information collaborating Jesus' faked crucifixion.

    Please show the verses that state Mary and HIS Disciples were not fooled by allah and knew allah was simply switching out Jesus for someone else.

    See the part made bold- this is stating that Jesus' enemies thought Jesus had been crucified. What else can it mean but HIS enemies were fooled by allah switching out Jesus for someone else?

    http://forums.understanding-islam.co...l=1#post176382
    ...2)The Qur'an didn't say it planned against Jesus' mother nor his followers, it said And Allah planned and Allah is the best of the planners.And the Qur'an is clear on the fact that the followers knew that Jesus didn't die and wasn't on the cross; only Jesus enemies thought they had crucified him as it appeared to them that way.

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    Default Re: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    Putting aside the abyssimal ignorance displayed by the original poster in other threads as well as this thread when he presents statements starting by "the Quran says..." as facts, and putting aside the countless internal discrepencies in the NT that prove how the crucifixion could not have happened as the writers depicted it, let alone happened at all, let us turn to extra-biblical evidence to see if there is any support for the Christian claim about Jesus' death.

    For a starter, one would expect the dramatization of Matthew27:45,51,52 to be at least reported in other Gospels let alone contemporary historical writings, with the eclipse, earthquake and deads coming back to life (where did they all go by the way, did they just keep wandering around for some time like zombies in the streets of Jerusalem?), the various miracles, Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, his witnessed ascencion to heaven and other various wonderful displays allegedly seen by many, yet none of all this is reported in the other other Gospels nor in history including the works of Josephus or Philo, even Galilee natives historians such as Tiberius who wrote detailed accounts of the period and of the Jews covering the entire time Jesus existed. Same deafening silence regarding Seneca and Pliny the Elder or other historians of the time who failed to mention these amazing events. Romans were renouned record keepers and they recorded earthquakes which they called prodigies yet the only ones spoken about around Jesus' era happenned in 37 BCE (too early) and again in 110 CE (too late). Partly for this reason, even many biblical scholars doubt that these cataclysms surrounding the alleged crucifixion really happened.

    Even Peter who was giving his speech in Acts 2 only 50 days after the alleged event along with Paul who in 1Cor15 was trying to convince the people on Jesus' resurection never mentionned these extraordinary event to strengthen their arguments in front of an audience that badly needed it. The sources Christians reference today for Jesus' existence and crucifixion arent by contemporary historians, aside from a disputed Roman passage (see below), or the few forged lines awkwardly inserted in between 2 flowing sections in Josephus' voluminous works that has pages and chapters devoted to petty personalities such as robbers or simple kings, yet this devout and zealous Jew ie the last person to accept Jesus as a god or the Jewish messiah is said to have given a short comment about how Jesus was indeed the wonderful, divine, and prophecied Jewish King-Messiah. There is a reason why none of the early Church fathers up to the 3rd century never quoted this most-appropriate passage in their controversies with the Jews and other works despite their familiarity with Josephus' writings; it is a late forgery. Origen the Church Father even expressly declares that Josephus makes no mention of Jesus. It isnt until Eusebius, the Church father notorious for his deception and distortions of evidence to advance the cause of the church, that we see a mention of the passage. Later Christian apologists such as Chrysostom and Photius both rejected this passage in their works yet they needed evidence such as this in their writings. Honest and modern Christian scholars have equally dismissied it today.

    No contemporary writing or immidiately following Jesus' time mention a thing about him let alone the extraordinary events surrounding his life or alleged crucifixion. None of the Roman records even mention Jesus who supposedy died in a most dramatic fashion (miracles surrounding the crucifixion). Yet we have proof that Bar Kochba (another messianic claimant who came just a few years after Jesus) has archeological and historical proof of his existence.
    A passage by the Roman Tacitus talking of the persecutions of early Christians, mentions how the founder of this religion "was Christus, who, in the reign of Tiberius, was punished, as a criminal by the procurator, Pontius Pilate". Again, none of the Church fathers nor any Christian writer prior to the 15th century mention it, despite their familiarity with Tacitus' works and their need for such weighty evidence by a renouned historian. Not even Eusebius who in the 4th century cites all sources available from Jewish and pagan sources in his writings. There exist no Roman records of Jesus' execution by Pontius Pilate and here we have the most renouned of Roman historians citing the alleged event, and yet he is ignored by Christian apologists up to the 15th century.
    In fact the reference to Jesus is absent from a 5th century Christian writer Sulpicius Severus who quotes the passage attributed to Tacitus in nearly the same words.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    Quote Originally Posted by patrick View Post
    It is the Quran not the Holy Bible that states 600 years later allah schemed and Jesus wasn't really crucified. The information will only be in the Quran if there is any information collaborating Jesus' faked crucifixion.

    Please show the verses that state Mary and HIS Disciples were not fooled by allah and knew allah was simply switching out Jesus for someone else.

    See the part made bold- this is stating that Jesus' enemies thought Jesus had been crucified. What else can it mean but HIS enemies were fooled by allah switching out Jesus for someone else?

    http://forums.understanding-islam.co...l=1#post176382
    ...2)The Qur'an didn't say it planned against Jesus' mother nor his followers, it said And Allah planned and Allah is the best of the planners.And the Qur'an is clear on the fact that the followers knew that Jesus didn't die and wasn't on the cross; only Jesus enemies thought they had crucified him as it appeared to them that way.
    I will write the following in bold letters maybe that way it will be clear and more visible.
    1) You are the one who stated that according to the Qur'an: Allah Fooled Mary....Then we simply asked you to give us the verse from which the word fooled appears.
    2) //See the part made bold- this is stating that Jesus' enemies thought Jesus had been crucified. What else can it mean but HIS enemies were fooled by allah switching out Jesus for someone else?
    [/I]

    We are not at the moment looking for the analogical deductions or any logical conclusions.What we are looking for is for you to give us a verse where the words: FOOLED/ DECEIVED ; appear in the Qur'an
    3)If this a debate then please sir , lets deal with one issue at a time: right now the issue - i think you will also agree - verse where Fooled/deceived.We will then deal with anything else after that.

    OR MAYBE YOU CHOOSE A TOPIC, JUST ONE TOPIC THEN WE WILL ONLY DEAL WITH THAT TOPIC ONLY.

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    Default Re: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Putting aside the abyssimal ignorance displayed by the original poster in other threads as well as this thread when he presents statements starting by "the Quran says..." as facts, and putting aside the countless internal discrepencies in the NT that prove how the crucifixion could not have happened as the writers depicted it, let alone happened at all, let us turn to extra-biblical evidence to see if there is any support for the Christian claim about Jesus' death.

    For a starter, one would expect the dramatization of Matthew27:45,51,52 to be at least reported in other Gospels let alone contemporary historical writings, with the eclipse, earthquake and deads coming back to life (where did they all go by the way, did they just keep wandering around for some time like zombies in the streets of Jerusalem?), the various miracles, Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, his witnessed ascencion to heaven and other various wonderful displays allegedly seen by many, yet none of all this is reported in the other other Gospels nor in history including the works of Josephus or Philo, even Galilee natives historians such as Tiberius who wrote detailed accounts of the period and of the Jews covering the entire time Jesus existed. Same deafening silence regarding Seneca and Pliny the Elder or other historians of the time who failed to mention these amazing events. Romans were renouned record keepers and they recorded earthquakes which they called prodigies yet the only ones spoken about around Jesus' era happenned in 37 BCE (too early) and again in 110 CE (too late). Partly for this reason, even many biblical scholars doubt that these cataclysms surrounding the alleged crucifixion really happened.

    Even Peter who was giving his speech in Acts 2 only 50 days after the alleged event along with Paul who in 1Cor15 was trying to convince the people on Jesus' resurection never mentionned these extraordinary event to strengthen their arguments in front of an audience that badly needed it. The sources Christians reference today for Jesus' existence and crucifixion arent by contemporary historians, aside from a disputed Roman passage (see below), or the few forged lines awkwardly inserted in between 2 flowing sections in Josephus' voluminous works that has pages and chapters devoted to petty personalities such as robbers or simple kings, yet this devout and zealous Jew ie the last person to accept Jesus as a god or the Jewish messiah is said to have given a short comment about how Jesus was indeed the wonderful, divine, and prophecied Jewish King-Messiah. There is a reason why none of the early Church fathers up to the 3rd century never quoted this most-appropriate passage in their controversies with the Jews and other works despite their familiarity with Josephus' writings; it is a late forgery. Origen the Church Father even expressly declares that Josephus makes no mention of Jesus. It isnt until Eusebius, the Church father notorious for his deception and distortions of evidence to advance the cause of the church, that we see a mention of the passage. Later Christian apologists such as Chrysostom and Photius both rejected this passage in their works yet they needed evidence such as this in their writings. Honest and modern Christian scholars have equally dismissied it today.

    No contemporary writing or immidiately following Jesus' time mention a thing about him let alone the extraordinary events surrounding his life or alleged crucifixion. None of the Roman records even mention Jesus who supposedy died in a most dramatic fashion (miracles surrounding the crucifixion). Yet we have proof that Bar Kochba (another messianic claimant who came just a few years after Jesus) has archeological and historical proof of his existence.
    A passage by the Roman Tacitus talking of the persecutions of early Christians, mentions how the founder of this religion "was Christus, who, in the reign of Tiberius, was punished, as a criminal by the procurator, Pontius Pilate". Again, none of the Church fathers nor any Christian writer prior to the 15th century mention it, despite their familiarity with Tacitus' works and their need for such weighty evidence by a renouned historian. Not even Eusebius who in the 4th century cites all sources available from Jewish and pagan sources in his writings. There exist no Roman records of Jesus' execution by Pontius Pilate and here we have the most renouned of Roman historians citing the alleged event, and yet he is ignored by Christian apologists up to the 15th century.
    In fact the reference to Jesus is absent from a 5th century Christian writer Sulpicius Severus who quotes the passage attributed to Tacitus in nearly the same words.
    All of which has beenanswered or debunked.

    What I want to discuss is the reason why allah faked the crucifixion.

    What outcome was allah planning?
    Did allah know a religion would be created around the faked crucifixion?
    What concern did allah have for Jesus' Disciples, followers and HIS precious mother Mary?

    Thank you for any Quranic verses that answer these questions.

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    Default Re: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    debunked? like you got badly debunked on the blog debunking christianity?

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    Default Re: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    Did allah know a religion would be created around the faked crucifixion?

    lets assume that your god really was KILLED or that the jews destroyed him in an UNKNOWN area in jerusalem, how does the murder of jesus MEAN MODERN DAY christianity?
    how?
    there was no religion created around the faked crucifixion by the original GROUP. deciples and jesus, according to SCHOLARS all viewed themselves as slaves of torah laws/rituals ect. paul and the romans would be responsible for fusing pagan and judaism together to create new religion. according to ehrman the crucifixion would not mean SALVATION /saved from hell, but it is GOOD to die as a MARTYR just like THE MANY other martyrs who existed before jesus.IT IS paul who is deriving magical meanings from murder of jesus on a stick and then taking it to the europeans.

    think about it , why at times jesus sound like a strickt pharisee and at other times like an apologist for pauls views? something isn't right.
    Last edited by theman09; 21st March 2012 at 12:46.

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    Default Re: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    Quote Originally Posted by theman09 View Post
    lets assume that your god really was KILLED or that the jews destroyed him in an UNKNOWN area in jerusalem, how does the murder of jesus MEAN MODERN DAY christianity?
    how?
    there was no religion created around the faked crucifixion by the original GROUP. deciples and jesus, according to SCHOLARS all viewed themselves as slaves of torah laws/rituals ect. paul and the romans would be responsible for fusing pagan and judaism together to create new religion. according to ehrman the crucifixion would not mean SALVATION /saved from hell, but it is GOOD to die as a MARTYR just like THE MANY other martyrs who existed before jesus.IT IS paul who is deriving magical meanings from murder of jesus on a stick and then taking it to the europeans.

    think about it , why at times jesus sound like a strickt pharisee and at other times like an apologist for pauls views? something isn't right.
    Christianity was created around the Good News - Gospel message. The fact that Jesus died for our sins paying the debt, resurrected and finally ascended to heaven.

    Paul did not write the Gospels. Christians existed before Paul became a Christian. Remember Paul was presecuting the Christians.

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    Default Re: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    Quote Originally Posted by patrick View Post
    Christianity was created around the Good News - Gospel message. The fact that Jesus died for our sins paying the debt, resurrected and finally ascended to heaven.

    Paul did not write the Gospels. Christians existed before Paul became a Christian. Remember Paul was presecuting the Christians.
    hi ^^
    I find it intresting how pauls letters were the oldest and was around way before the gosples were written. after a few years of his death people then started writting the Gospels and the rest of the NT. It's also intresting alot of people are now rejecting pauls work even though he Is the true founder of christanity.

    Before Paul invented Christainty there was a group called the Essenes which later evolved into Gnostics. Theses group relied on Gnosis which is from above and didn't even need Paul to tell them how things work. I tend to see paul as a Gnostic spy who must of work with Nero since he says that all must listen to the leaders cause God choose them to rule over us (Romans 13:1-6) and according to history the "Christains" refused to pay taxes and this would make sence to bring a spy who claims to have magical visions and say he's a follower of christ and people must listen to him etc.

    I also belive that Paul was sent by Nero to kill theses groups as it says In acts and in history it is said that Nero's army were killing Christains at that time too. so if we put the bible and Nero *together we can clearly see that Paul is a roman spy working for Nero. But that's my conclusion*
    Last edited by Moonlight; 23rd March 2012 at 09:55.

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    Default Re: What is the purpose of allah's deception surrounding Jesus' crucifixion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlight View Post
    hi ^^
    I find it intresting how pauls letters were the oldest and was around way before the gosples were written. after a few years of his death people then started writting the Gospels and the rest of the NT. It's also intresting alot of people are now rejecting pauls work even though he Is the true founder of christanity.

    Before Paul invented Christainty there was a group called the Essenes which later evolved into Gnostics. Theses group relied on Gnosis which is from above and didn't even need Paul to tell them how things work. I tend to see paul as a Gnostic spy who must of work with Nero since he says that all must listen to the leaders cause God choose them to rule over us (Romans 13:1-6) and according to history the "Christains" refused to pay taxes and this would make sence to bring a spy who claims to have magical visions and say he's a follower of christ and people must listen to him etc.

    I also belive that Paul was sent by Nero to kill theses groups as it says In acts and in history it is said that Nero's army were killing Christains at that time too. so if we put the bible and Nero *together we can clearly see that Paul is a roman spy working for Nero. But that's my conclusion*
    Paul lived, ca 5 - 67 AD. He referenced Scripture [Gospel] in his Epistles:
    1 Corinthians 15
    3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

    Paul quotes a verses from Luke:
    1 Timothy 5:18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,"(1) and "The worker deserves his wages."(2)

    Footnotes:
    (1)Deut. 25:4
    (2)Luke 10:7

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