Soul

[sweet_potatoes]

Hi everybody! What's up?

So, I was reading this thing on the soul, from this website. So I read this bit:

Ibn Sina (§6) asserts that we infer the existence of the soul from the fact that we observe bodies that perform certain acts with some degree of will. These acts are exemplified in taking nourishment, growing, reproducing, moving and perceiving. Since these acts do not belong to the nature of bodies, for this nature is devoid of will, they must belong to a principle they have other than bodies. This principle is what is called ‘soul’.

This argument is intended to prove the existence of the animal soul, which includes the plant soul. The soul is the source of acts performed by the will, not inasmuch as it is ‘a substance’ (an independent entity), but inasmuch as it is ‘the principle of such acts’. The rational soul, on the other hand, need not look outside itself to infer its existence. It is aware of its existence with immediacy, that is, without any instruments. Ibn Sina’s example of the suspended man is intended to prove that the rational soul is aware of itself apart from any body. His argument boils down to the view that, even if the adult rational soul is not aware of anything material, not even its body, it remains aware of its own existence.

Can someone explain what that entire quote means to me? (Sorry.) Or actually, if it's possible, could you just explain what a soul is OVERALL, cuz this website is really confusing? And how do we know it exists? Like, if there's a person in a coma, how is their soul aware of its own existence?

Thanks in advance!!

-- SP

(PS: Also, what's the point of this symbol: §6 next to Ibn Sina's name? )

[sweet_potatoes]

And I looked up Ibn Sina's "suspended man" thing, and Wikipedia says this:

While he was imprisoned in the castle of Fardajan near Hamadhan, Avicenna wrote his famous "Floating Man" thought experiment to demonstrate human self-awareness and the substantiality and immateriality of the soul. Avicenna believed his "Floating Man" thought experiment demonstrated that the soul is a substance, and claimed humans cannot doubt their own consciousness, even in a situation that prevents all sensory data input. The thought experiment told its readers to imagine themselves created all at once while suspended in the air, isolated from all sensations, which includes no sensory contact with even their own bodies. He argued that, in this scenario, one would still have self-consciousness. Because it is conceivable that a person, suspended in air while cut off from sense experience, would still be capable of determining his own existence, the thought experiment points to the conclusions that the soul is a perfection, independent of the body, and an immaterial substance. The conceivability of this “Floating Man” indicates that the soul is perceived intellectually, which entails the soul’s separateness from the body. Avicenna referred to the living human intelligence, particularly the active intellect, which he believed to be the hypostasis by which God communicates truth to the human mind and imparts order and intelligibility to nature. However, Avicenna posited the brain as the place where reason interacts with sensation. Sensation prepares the soul to receive rational concepts from the universal Agent Intellect. The first knowledge of the flying person would be “I am,” affirming his or her essence. That essence could not be the body, obviously, as the flying person has no sensation. Thus, the knowledge that “I am” is the core of a human being: the soul exists and is self-aware.[40] Avicenna thus concluded that the idea of the self is not logically dependent on any physical thing, and that the soul should not be seen in relative terms, but as a primary given, a substance. The body is unnecessary; in relation to it, the soul is its perfection.[41][42][43] In itself, the soul is an immaterial substance.[

I'm not sure if I understand it correctly, but basically he's saying that if you had no body you'd still be aware of yourself so therefore that is your soul? Right? I don't think that's true. If I didn't have a body, I wouldn't have a brain or nerve endings and then I wouldn't be able to think at all. So. I don't really know what he means. Would somebody mind explaining? I especially don't get the bit that I bolded.

Thank you!!

[shaad_lko]

(PS: Also, what's the point of this symbol: §6 next to Ibn Sina's name? )

that's a cross-ref to ibn Sina's article, section 6 - aint I smart ?

[sweet_potatoes]

that's a cross-ref to ibn Sina's article, section 6 - aint I smart ?

Wow!!! Smarty pants! I thought it was some sort of short form of a dua, like how we say "peace be upon him" or something.

[shaad_lko]

If I didn't have a body, I wouldn't have a brain or nerve endings and then I wouldn't be able to think at all.

His argument is that brain is not needed for awareness - it is the place where reason interacts with sensation (inputs from the 5 senses), but by itself reason also exists in the soul. To disprove his thesis you need to show that intellect is only possible through the brain..

By the way, the functionality of nerve endings does support his argument - because they relay sensory information to the brain which processes the same.

[alan]

Hi everybody! What's up?

So, I was reading this thing on the soul, from this website. So I read this bit:



Can someone explain what that entire quote means to me? (Sorry.) Or actually, if it's possible, could you just explain what a soul is OVERALL, cuz this website is really confusing? And how do we know it exists? Like, if there's a person in a coma, how is their soul aware of its own existence?

Thanks in advance!!

-- SP

(PS: Also, what's the point of this symbol: §6 next to Ibn Sina's name? )

Is this a hungry soul,what Dawkins calls the selfish gene?

[sweet_potatoes]

His argument is that brain is not needed for awareness - it is the place where reason interacts with sensation (inputs from the 5 senses), but by itself reason also exists in the soul. To disprove his thesis you need to show that intellect is only possible through the brain..

By the way, the functionality of nerve endings does support his argument - because they relay sensory information to the brain which processes the same.

Oh. How confusing. :/ So, like, if I didn't have a brain, I'd still be aware? But if you didn't have a brain, then you wouldn't think AT ALL, so you couldn't reason either. It's not like dead people can reason right? If someone blasted your brain to bits (that's alliteration ), then, obviously you're not aware anymore. Then you'd be dead. I can't even imagine myself without sensory perception. That's impossible. I think. :/

[sweet_potatoes]

Is this a hungry soul,what Dawkins calls the selfish gene?

Pardon? I don't know what you mean. And I haven't read that book. I tried reading The God Delusion but it sucked so I stopped.

[alan]

Pardon? I don't know what you mean. And I haven't read that book. I tried reading The God Delusion but it sucked so I stopped.

Growing,taking nourishment,reproducing,Avicina seems to attribute to the soul-sounds hungry.

[alan]

Obviously Avicina wouldnt have any conception of genetic programing,driving the creature to grow,nourish,reproduce.Is there will in this?

[sweet_potatoes]

shaad_lko:

So I looked it up and I found this in Ibn Sina's own words, and he really explains it better than Wikipedia does. So:

"Most people and many of the speculative theologians have thought that the human being is this body and that everyone refers to it when saying 'I'. This is a false belief, as we shall show."
"The one among us must imagine himself as though he is created all at once and created perfect, but that his sight has been veiled from observing external things, and that he is created falling in the air or the void in a manner where he would not encounter air resistance, requiring him to feel, and that his limbs are separated from each other so that they neither meet nor touch. He must then reflect as to whether he will affirm the existence of his self."
"He will not doubt his affirming his self existing, but with this he will not affirm any limb from among his organs, no internal organ, whether heart or brain and no external thing. Rather, he would be affirming his self without affirming it for length, breadth, and depth."
"Hence the one who affirms has a means to be alerted to the existence of his soul as something other than the body - indeed, other than body - and to his being directly acquainted with [this existence] and aware of it."

That makes more sense. I guess that's possible cuz you'd have a brain even though you wouldn't know it. I thought he meant something else, that we can't think without a brain.

[sweet_potatoes]

Growing,taking nourishment,reproducing,Avicina seems to attribute to the soul-sounds hungry.

Oh, LOL!!!!!

Obviously Avicina wouldnt have any conception of genetic programing,driving the creature to grow,nourish,reproduce.Is there will in this?

I have no idea. :/ Sorry. I guess that means the animal soul doesn't exist? Or maybe the plant soul. But he sounds smart, so maybe he meant something else.

[alan]

Oh, LOL!!!!!



I have no idea. :/ Sorry. I guess that means the animal soul doesn't exist? Or maybe the plant soul. But he sounds smart, so maybe he meant something else.

Well it may suggest that this modern information,means the idea of an individual soul is illusiory,that the drives are programmed by evolution.

[sweet_potatoes]

shaad_lko:

So I looked it up and I found this in Ibn Sina's own words, and he really explains it better than Wikipedia does. So:



That makes more sense. I guess that's possible cuz you'd have a brain even though you wouldn't know it. I thought he meant something else, that we can't think without a brain.

Actually, I don't think that makes sense any more. If you were falling without air resistance and stuff, wouldn't you starve to death? Then you couldn't affirm ANYTHING's existence cuz you'd be dead.

[sweet_potatoes]

Well it may suggest that this modern information,means the idea of an individual soul is illusiory,that the drives are programmed by evolution.

Oh. Okay. I guess maybe souls don't exist then. I'll ask my Biology teacher where self-awareness comes from (he has a PhD and is a genius).

Edit: And I'll tell you what he says!! Tomorrow inshaAllah. Then you'll know too.