Half the punishment for lewdness

[shaad_lko]

What I am saying is that later Muslim authorities wanting to give Muslim rulers absolute power and authority so they elevated the prophet's authority to divine authority and then this authority can now be transfered to the ruler. Either these hadiths are not accurate or we are to assume that Muhamad disobeyed his lord. I am inclined to believe the former.

while your assertion about theological justification of Muslim rulers may be true to some extent, there were always some ulama who opposed any wrong committed by the ruling elite. Further, it is also possible that the Hadith are true and one of the Prophet's functions was to judge on any disputes arising in the community. If Quran is silent on a matter (like punishment for alcohol) there is no disobedience to Allah if Muhammad (pbuh) announces a verdict on the same.

The reason why the Koran condemned Jews use of usury is not just about Europe, this practice the Jews had is embeded in the Talmud. The Koran condemned the Talmud and so did Jesus in the Gospel. Both the Koran and Jesus confirmed the Torah and previous scriptures.

yes, but Riba is a well-known Arabic term which was understood perfectly to mean any excess over the original principal, so it does cover all sorts of loans where interest is charged.

The Koran does give freedom to mock, it repeatedly orders the prophet that if he hears people mock God's scriptures that he should abstain from them and avoid them.

"He has already revealed to you in the Scripture, that when you hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, you are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme. If you did, you would be like them..." (Qur'an 4:140)

[The Noble Quran 6:68] If you see those who mock our revelations, you shall avoid them until they delve into another subject. If the devil causes you to forget, then, as soon as you remember, do not sit with such evil people

this is again contextual. In a society, there are always some rules to prevent disorder and hurting others' emotions. Otherwise, there was no need to cleanse Arabia of polytheism.

The Koran stipulates that only for intentional murder can capital punisment be administered but it allows for a lower ceiling like exile from the community. Muslim authorities claimed that the verses about capital punishment is talking about "haraba", which means warfare. If its warfare the they ae prisoners of war. The Koran gave two options for prisoners of war, freedom or ransom of some sort. Later Muslim authorities introduce two more criteria, enslavement of female prisoners and capital punishment. Slavery is acts performed by tyrants in the Koran like the Pharoah and Joseph's brothers, while the execution of prisoners violates the Koran conmmands. The Koran placed prisoners in the category of charity and ordered the prophet to console them and protect them.

you're all mixed up here- 5:33-34 clarify quite clearly that capital punishment is also for haraba, and here it means not war between two parties but spreading anarchy in the society, which would include rampant prostitution. For war, I agree Quran does not promote slavery anywhere..

I am not sure what you mean about the alcohol part and as far as idol worshiping, the Koran says do not come near prayers when you are intoxicated and says alcohol has benefits and harm but its harm is worse. It also says that alcohol can be used by the devil to make us neglect our prayers and create animosity between us. All of this can be avoided if alcohol mis used moderately and responsibly. Muslim authorities howver came with lashing hadiths and also with some hadith that says alcohol consumers are cursed, their is also a hadith that says even a drop of alocohol is haram. So the Koran looks at alcohol in terms of what it can lead to while Muslim authorities see it as an end by itself.

Who gave the prophet authority to persecute and lash people for drinking alcohol and why should a person who drinks alcohol be cursed? There are believers who drink alcohol and they are disbelievers who drink alcohol. Alcohol doe not give any indication about a person's faith or character, so why Should God look at it as such? What the Koran is worried about is how the devil can use a person when intoxicate to make him do things he other wise won't do. But the devil can use many tools like women, fame, fortune, fear, and also he can use the fear of poverty and in Adam's case he used false promises of eternity or superior creation.

I am surprised you compare this with idol worship.

Alcohol is not prohibited due to any Hadith but directly in the Quran itself (5:90) - it is an abomination devised by satan. My comparing it with idol-worship is precisely because a rational argument can be made about idol-worship too just like you make the case for alcohol here. As for the punishment for drinking, Quran being silent on it doesnt mean taht the Prophet (pbuh) or later Muslims cannot devise something about it, though that particular punishment doesnt acquire the status of Sharia.

[Pipman]

If you look at verse 5:33 it came in the context of the story of the two sons of Adam and intentional murder. Perhhaps you interpret "those who war against God and His messenger" as meaning Qital. The Koran hwoever uses the verm Qital for physical warfare and not harb. War here is like the war on poverty or the war on drugs. The Quran uses harb to also indicate that those who pursue Riba are at harb with God. So you are interpreting wrong. There is nothing called haraba.

27. Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah.: It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter: "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "(Allah) doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous.

28. "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds.

29. "For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong."

30. The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother: he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones.

31. Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets-

32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

27. Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah.: It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter: "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "(Allah) doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous.

28. "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds.

29. "For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong."

30. The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother: he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones.

31. Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets-

32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

"execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land"

Execution is the highest ceiling (soul for a soul) and exile from the community is the lowest ceiling (like life imprisonment).

Haraba whatever it is is considered prisoners of war. Here the Koran gave two criteria, either freedom or ransom. I am nt sure what this haraba is but there is no definition for it. Either people kill intentionally or unintentionally (the Koran says that unintentional should be dealt with by money) or are prisoners in a war.

[shaad_lko]

If you look at verse 5:33 it came in the context of the story of the two sons of Adam and intentional murder. Perhhaps you interpret "those who war against God and His messenger" as meaning Qital. The Koran hwoever uses the verm Qital for physical warfare and not harb. War here is like the war on poverty or the war on drugs. The Quran uses harb to also indicate that those who pursue Riba are at harb with God. So you are interpreting wrong. There is nothing called haraba.

I dont really need to interpret anything because haraba is the term used by the Quran itself - please read in Arabic 5:33 (I dont know if you know Arabic or not..). Also, Quran itself clarifies that the term here refers to causing corruption in the land (in the same verse).

"execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land"

Execution is the highest ceiling (soul for a soul) and exile from the community is the lowest ceiling (like life imprisonment).

agreed.

Haraba whatever it is is considered prisoners of war. Here the Koran gave two criteria, either freedom or ransom. I am nt sure what this haraba is but there is no definition for it. Either people kill intentionally or unintentionally (the Koran says that unintentional should be dealt with by money) or are prisoners in a war.

No, there is a third crime of causing mischief and disorder in the land which has the same punishment as murder. In fact, capital punishment is only for these two crimes (murder and spreading anarchy). War and prisoners of war is a different issue as you correctly pointed out.

[Pipman]

don't know what you mean by anarchy. This is the term used by Bashar Al Assad and Qaddafi and Husni Mubarak against the protesters. Its a very vague word. There is nothing in the Koran called haraba.

This concept is not a Koarnic concept and came from this hadith:

24:577] Narrated Anas: Some people from 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them, so Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) allowed them to go to the herd of camels (given as Zakat) and they drank their milk and urine (as medicine) but they killed the shepherd and drove away all the camels. So Allah's Apostle sent (men) in their pursuit to catch them, and they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut, and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron and they were left in the Harra (a stony place at Medina) biting the stones. (See Hadith No. 234, Vol. 1)

Now if these individuals were not executed then this is consistent with the Koran as amputationw as used instead of capital punishment. However if they were left dead than this violates the Koran as the Koran prescribed amputation as an alternative (and not an addition) to capital punishment.


However there is nothing in the Koran called haraba. This hadith is talking about murder and possibly theft.

You can amputate for muder as a way to spare someone capital punishment. Howvere Muslim authorities applied amputation for theft also. This violates the equal retribution in the Koran. A hand is for a hand like an eye is for an eye. The punishment should always fir the crime and amputation can done in the Koran for murder but not for theft unless someone steals or robs something of equal value to a human's hand.

Muslim authorities interpret "cut their hands" as meaning amputation yet we know in the story of Joseph that the women "cut their hands" when they saw Joseph. I don't think you believe it means amputation. Amputation in arabic is not "qata'" but "batara".

Linguistic interpretation of the Koran will always produce wrong interpretation, you have to look at the foundation of the Koran and the context verses and topics appear in. The Koran must be read as a whole and not in bits and pieces.

Verse 5:33 is clearly a verse that comments on the Cain and Abel story and not some vague anarchy and chaos etc

[shaad_lko]

don't know what you mean by anarchy. This is the term used by Bashar Al Assad and Qaddafi and Husni Mubarak against the protesters. Its a very vague word. There is nothing in the Koran called haraba.

then I dont know which Koran you are referring to.

This concept is not a Koarnic concept and came from this hadith:

24:577] Narrated Anas: Some people from 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them, so Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) allowed them to go to the herd of camels (given as Zakat) and they drank their milk and urine (as medicine) but they killed the shepherd and drove away all the camels. So Allah's Apostle sent (men) in their pursuit to catch them, and they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut, and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron and they were left in the Harra (a stony place at Medina) biting the stones. (See Hadith No. 234, Vol. 1)

Now if these individuals were not executed then this is consistent with the Koran as amputationw as used instead of capital punishment. However if they were left dead than this violates the Koran as the Koran prescribed amputation as an alternative (and not an addition) to capital punishment.


However there is nothing in the Koran called haraba. This hadith is talking about murder and possibly theft.

The Hadith is merely explaining the Quran, dear friend.. Can you read Arabic or not? If yes, then please re-read 5:32-34 and you will know what Haraba is and what is Fasad.

You can amputate for muder as a way to spare someone capital punishment. Howvere Muslim authorities applied amputation for theft also. This violates the equal retribution in the Koran. A hand is for a hand like an eye is for an eye. The punishment should always fir the crime and amputation can done in the Koran for murder but not for theft unless someone steals or robs something of equal value to a human's hand.

wow! great exegesis, but how do you determine value of a human hand? So Qisas applies to theft, per your logic..

Muslim authorities interpret "cut their hands" as meaning amputation yet we know in the story of Joseph that the women "cut their hands" when they saw Joseph. I don't think you believe it means amputation. Amputation in arabic is not "qata'" but "batara".

amputation is qata, and it is not for any theft (if that's what your problem is) but for a thorough and complete theft over a certain value, and certainly the analogy of Qisas is not used here. In any case the punishments are all outer limits for the crimes mentioned, and not necessary to be applied always.

Linguistic interpretation of the Koran will always produce wrong interpretation, you have to look at the foundation of the Koran and the context verses and topics appear in. The Koran must be read as a whole and not in bits and pieces.

right, and who better than you to tell us what is the foundation of the Quran..

Verse 5:33 is clearly a verse that comments on the Cain and Abel story and not some vague anarchy and chaos etc

no it is not vague at all..