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Thread: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

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    Default Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/m...d&type=article

    Women are subordinate to men, should not mix in work or education and must always have a male guardian when they travel, according to new guidelines from Afghanistan's top clerics which critics say are dangerously reminiscent of the Taliban era.


    ...


    "Men are fundamental and women are secondary," the statement says, according to a translation by Afghan analyst Ahmad Shuja. "Also, lineage is derived from the man. Therefore, the use of words and expressions that contradict the sacred verses must be strictly avoided."

    I think it's a shame that anyone should suggest that the brutal treatment of women is "Talibanisation". One could make a case for this insanity being just orthodox islamism.

    Women living under the maniacally brutal tenets of Islamic shariah law are in grave peril. Any nation that treats its citizens this way needs to be isolated, pressured, and if need be, forcibly removed of its leadership. And apologizing for islamist shariah is an abomination, in my view.

    A consortium of women from the Islamist world need to be callling for a "gender jihad" to promote equality and rights for the other half of Islam's population. I would wish them all the best, but their primary obstruction in such an endeavor is the immovable literalism that Islam has been beset with since its inception.
    Last edited by Resigned; 6th March 2012 at 14:38.

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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    I look forward to hearing the rebuttals from my Muslim friends on this development coming out of that country.

    Do we dare predict how Egypt will fare?

    Iraq?

    Syria?

    No amount of forum intellectualism can explain away the reality of what we have seen in the history of Islam, nor the current troubling world events. Which is probably why threads like this remain small.

    Would be different if the thread title was:

    Jesus' teaching says no to Taliban style Islam.

    Or

    Israel reacts to news of afghanistans new look Islam.

    Or

    Ladies, time to iron your burkas.

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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    Quote Originally Posted by jude3 View Post
    I look forward to hearing the rebuttals from my Muslim friends on this development coming out of that country.
    Maybe there would've been more responces if the opening statement were in someway relevant to the article, all we have here is the OP flamebaiting/trolling.

    Do we dare predict how Egypt will fare?

    Iraq?

    Syria?

    No amount of forum intellectualism can explain away the reality of what we have seen in the history of Islam, nor the current troubling world events. Which is probably why threads like this remain small.

    Would be different if the thread title was:

    Jesus' teaching says no to Taliban style Islam.

    Or

    Israel reacts to news of afghanistans new look Islam.

    Or

    Ladies, time to iron your burkas.

    Excellent point, A debate is only lively when there is something to talk about. what exactly is the discussion here? the taliban? the karzai government? womens rights? shariah? political islam or the article itself which neither you or the OP seem to have followed up on.
    Last edited by Dench; 10th March 2012 at 02:56.

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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dench View Post
    Maybe there would've been more responces if the opening statement were in someway relevant to the article, all we have here is the OP flamebaiting/trolling.
    So effectively, you had nothing to offer but to spam the thread.




    Excellent point, A debate is only lively when there is something to talk about. what exactly is the discussion here? the taliban? the karzai government? womens rights? shariah? political islam or the article itself which neither you or the OP seem to have followed up on.
    So effectively, you have nothing to contribute.

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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    I answered jude3s questions, that was a contribution. There was also some advice in there for you.

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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    effectively, it means the West is supporting a government which doesnt care for women - that's sad..
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    Quote Originally Posted by shaad_lko View Post
    effectively, it means the West is supporting a government which doesnt care for women - that's sad..
    Ah yes. The hate projected toward women, gender apartheid and misogynistic attitudes prevalent in islamism are the fault of everyone else.

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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    I ask you to remember that Islam prescribes that all spiritual as well as temporal authority belongs to it and it alone. Islam is to be the sole religion. Striving in the cause of Allah and enforcing sharia as the sole law for all persons everywhere is doing Allah’s work.

    Hamid Karzai under fire on Afghan women's rights

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ns-rights.html



    Politicians, rights organisations and analysts say that the Afghan leader, by endorsing an edict calling women second-class citizens, has endangered hard-won progress in women's rights since the Taliban fell from power in 2001.

    ...

    Last Friday, the Council, Afghanistan's highest Islamic authority, issued a non-binding edict saying that women were worth less than men – a statement released by Mr Karzai's office and then endorsed by the president on Tuesday.

    "Men are fundamental and women are secondary," it said, adding women should avoid "mingling with strange men in various social activities such as education, in bazaars, in offices and other aspects of life".

    So the above edict is not representative of the preferred allegiences of especially fanatical devotees of an especially inflexible politico-religious ideology, but the socio-political program of a hostile, gun-touting movement that seeks dominion over the entire globe deeming itself to have been sanctioned by Allah.

    More delicate Islamodiplomacy from the calculating throwback who believes that aiding the the efforts at keeping Afghanistan in line with 7th century norms is a rational worldview.

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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    Quote Originally Posted by shaad_lko View Post
    effectively, it means the West is supporting a government which doesnt care for women - that's sad..
    What's sad....the west's support, or the muslim's dominance over women...!?

    Your q us a deflection....always trying to blame the west etc.

    The REAL issue is islam's true theology and the continual rise of militant (or true) islam.

    If you disagree, what actions are you taking against these clerics?

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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    Quote Originally Posted by jude3 View Post
    What's sad....the west's support, or the muslim's dominance over women...!?

    Your q us a deflection....always trying to blame the west etc.

    The REAL issue is islam's true theology and the continual rise of militant (or true) islam.

    If you disagree, what actions are you taking against these clerics?
    Nonsence. The brother made an excellent point which highlights both the western civilisations hypocracy and your own ignorance when it comes to such issues.

    While we can all agree that there are cases of discrimination to be found against our sisters in some muslim communities, you fail to also take into consideration that women in general (including muslim) also suffer widespread discrimination in the west. cases of sexual assault, rape, abuse and exploitation are not uncommon and stats after stats show these are increasing year on year at an astoishing rate.

    so the question shouldnt be what are muslims doing about it, as if to suggest such problems dont exists in the western world. rather you should be posing the question to yourself before pointing at others, what have you done about it?. Its clear the west not only suffers from cases of discrimination in large numbers but it has also failed to provide any real solutions for it! but like yourself and the OP, your more than happy to overlook that minor detail and continue to parade yourselves around the globe as the beacon for freedom and womens right which tbh is a load tosh.

    we (the muslims) on the otherhand have a solution. Islam. It has solved the issue of womens rights and has been bolder than west in every way when it came to tackling the societal injustices of pre-islamic arabia and the descrimantions women face in modern day west and east.
    we dont need to rely on hollow slogans, or the wishful thinkings of a man,woman or culture to enforce these rights for us, because our rights were given by Allah swt. we have been given a comprehensive system, and its this system that taught us that jannah lay at the feet of our mothers, a system that gave women the right to vote while the western world was discussing if they had souls. Islam is a system that empowered women, defined a societal role and elevated their status in society, gave them rights to inheritance, to a voice, to independence, to economic empowerment and towards safeguarding their honour.

    so the problem for us isnt islam as you would like to paint it, as this protection and right was only given under islam, for us it was God given. Our problem lies with the abolishment of islam as a politcal entity in 1924 by atturk under british influence. since then we have all lost our voices and rights. where once islam protected and empowered us (men and women) Instead secular dictators,western puppets, illeterate tribal leader have filled that role of pretectorate and taken power for themselves (legislative) and have caused only problems and hardship for this ummah over the years.

    Our problems will go once we've re-established islam in its entirety and return once again to only relying on Allah swt and the sunnah for our rights, and not rely on the whims of these tribal elders, scholars for dollars,dictators or western cultures that have promised alot but delievered little.

    so dont worry about us, we're pretty much sorted. you on the other hand....
    Last edited by Dench; 14th March 2012 at 02:00.

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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    Ok, so now it's atturk as well as the west? Plus add in illiterate tribal leaders. Don't forget textual nuances and complex contextual Arabia-speak. And, there's the great Satan to consider also, along with the formation of the rogue state of Israel. Man, it's getting hard to keep up with all the players giving Islam a bum rap.

    I'm sure your mates in afganistan and Egypt would be interested in your views on women. Why not lobby for a female president?



    Quote Originally Posted by Dench View Post
    Nonsence. The brother made an excellent point which highlights both the western civilisations hypocracy and your own ignorance when it comes to such issues.

    While we can all agree that there are cases of discrimination to be found against our sisters in some muslim communities, you fail to also take into consideration that women in general (including muslim) also suffer widespread discrimination in the west. cases of sexual assault, rape, abuse and exploitation are not uncommon and stats after stats show these are increasing year on year at an astoishing rate.

    so the question shouldnt be what are muslims doing about it, as if to suggest such problems dont exists in the western world. rather you should be posing the question to yourself before pointing at others, what have you done about it?. Its clear the west not only suffers from cases of discrimination in large numbers but it has also failed to provide any real solutions for it! but like yourself and the OP, your more than happy to overlook that minor detail and continue to parade yourselves around the globe as the beacon for freedom and womens right which tbh is a load tosh.

    we (the muslims) on the otherhand have a solution. Islam. It has solved the issue of womens rights and has been bolder than west in every way when it came to tackling the societal injustices of pre-islamic arabia and the descrimantions women face in modern day west and east.
    we dont need to rely on hollow slogans, or the wishful thinkings of a man,woman or culture to enforce these rights for us, because our rights were given by Allah swt. we have been given a comprehensive system, and its this system that taught us that jannah lay at the feet of our mothers, a system that gave women the right to vote while the western world was discussing if they had souls. Islam is a system that empowered women, defined a societal role and elevated their status in society, gave them rights to inheritance, to a voice, to independence, to economic empowerment and towards safeguarding their honour.

    so the problem for us isnt islam as you would like to paint it, as this protection and right was only given under islam, for us it was God given. Our problem lies with the abolishment of islam as a politcal entity in 1924 by atturk under british influence. since then we have all lost our voices and rights. where once islam protected and empowered us (men and women) Instead secular dictators,western puppets, illeterate tribal leader have filled that role of pretectorate and taken power for themselves (legislative) and have caused only problems and hardship for this ummah over the years.

    Our problems will go once we've re-established islam in its entirety and return once again to only relying on Allah swt and the sunnah for our rights, and not rely on the whims of these tribal elders, scholars for dollars,dictators or western cultures that have promised alot but delievered little.

    so dont worry about us, we're pretty much sorted. you on the other hand....

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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    Dench,

    I think we tend to underestimate the bad done by people in our own cultures and religions. We have a tendency to dismiss the things done by those people by saying they do not represent our culture and religion. I think it is fair to say that Islam treats both genders fairly, but many Muslims do not. In the same sense secular Western laws treat women fairly but many Westerners do not.

    I think there is a lot that both Muslims and non-Muslims should be doing to ensure women are treated better.

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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    Quote Originally Posted by jude3 View Post
    What's sad....the west's support, or the muslim's dominance over women...!?

    Your q us a deflection....always trying to blame the west etc.

    The REAL issue is islam's true theology and the continual rise of militant (or true) islam.

    If you disagree, what actions are you taking against these clerics?
    both are sad. No, I am not blaming the West for internal wrongs committed by Muslims, I am trying to show that the West's attitude is hypocritical because you cant play big brother and at the same time show up the fall guy for his weaknesses.

    By virtue of military intervention, the West has lost all moral right to ask for actions against these clerics. Whatever is there to fix, we do need to fix it but any bossy intervention is only going to exacerbate the problem on both sides. Let's call a spade a spade..
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    Shaad, thanks.

    Military intervention makes no sense without a real threat...!

    Same as Israel!

    Quote Originally Posted by shaad_lko View Post
    both are sad. No, I am not blaming the West for internal wrongs committed by Muslims, I am trying to show that the West's attitude is hypocritical because you cant play big brother and at the same time show up the fall guy for his weaknesses.

    By virtue of military intervention, the West has lost all moral right to ask for actions against these clerics. Whatever is there to fix, we do need to fix it but any bossy intervention is only going to exacerbate the problem on both sides. Let's call a spade a spade..

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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    Quote Originally Posted by jude3 View Post
    Ok, so now it's atturk as well as the west? Plus add in illiterate tribal leaders. Don't forget textual nuances and complex contextual Arabia-speak. And, there's the great Satan to consider also, along with the formation of the rogue state of Israel. Man, it's getting hard to keep up with all the players giving Islam a bum rap.

    I'm sure your mates in afganistan and Egypt would be interested in your views on women. Why not lobby for a female president?
    It seems your more interested in flaiming than actually reading,comprehending and then responding to my post. I already stated:

    1) we aren't without problems in some of our muslim communities around the world, and i've already explained why.

    &

    2) ive also highlighted, named and shamed the very people YOU wanted us to do something against. i can go into more detail if need be.

    I've answered, rebutted your questions/insinutaions and fulfilled the challenge you posed, YOU however have avoided mine. Why are women suffering in the west?

    you guys surely dont have 'clerics', the 'qu'ran', or "atturk...illiterate tribal leaders...textual nuances and complex contextual Arabia-speak. And...the great Satan" troubling you, so whats your issues against women? according to you we have islam to blame, who do you blame for the epidemic problem in your house Mr.Im-a-civilised-Islamofascist?

    wait second...yeah i think i just lol'd.
    Last edited by Dench; 15th March 2012 at 07:11.

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