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Thread: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    Quote Originally Posted by Polog View Post
    Dench,

    I think we tend to underestimate the bad done by people in our own cultures and religions. We have a tendency to dismiss the things done by those people by saying they do not represent our culture and religion. I think it is fair to say that Islam treats both genders fairly, but many Muslims do not. In the same sense secular Western laws treat women fairly but many Westerners do not.

    I think there is a lot that both Muslims and non-Muslims should be doing to ensure women are treated better.
    I agree, there are bad apples in every community so i would generally avoid tarring a whole society or nation based on a few unpleasant incidences, and would expect the same reasonable responce in return. But the accusations and insinuations Luke3 and resigned are throwing around arent directed towards individuals, but islam itself.

    These flippant responces like, 'oh you blame everyone but islam.baaaaawwww' need to be addressed. There is a lot of ignorance like this out there and it'd be better to address them head on than be passive and let them build on that misconception of theirs through our silence.

    islam as a system(not subcultures, dictators and other community leaders) which i have been very clear to differentiate, as a system has introduced rights for both sexes and enshrined those right to be legally binding for all times. in that we were not only the worlds first major contributors towards womens liberation and empowerment, but remain as only major ideology that has and continues to address every aspect of womens and provide a solution to create balanced a society.

    The west on the otherhand, though they may boast now, has not only trailed behind us in terms of introducing basic rights which they now take for granted, but have also failed to draw a balance and safeguard those very rights in any constructive way whatsoever. so we dont need to be taking any lessons from the west since there is very little good to take from them. we were already one step ahead and have a comprehensive legal and social framework in islam, drawing a balance between these rights and societal needs.

    The west has yet to do the same, so far as i can see they still remain behind us, and thus far have only papered over the cracks while more appear elsewhere. And until they actually solve their issues rather simply pretend they have, i feel its perfectly reasonable and legitimate to tell them to either put up or shut up. they're not in any position to be giving us any lessons in this department.

    we as muslims have a lot of hurdles in our paths, and we are right to direct our anger and frustrations out at the leaders who came into power in the muslim world since the destruction of the khilafah, we also face discrimination as minorities in the west and on top of that our sisters also suffer the same general discrimination women go through in the west. so its not like we're ignorant of the alternative lifestyle the west offers either.

    both our communities (muslim and non-muslim) have very severe issues we need to address, the problems are real and hurting society at large, i was born and raised in the west so i wont say people in general are bad and out to hurt women, but the problems we see and read about are deep lying and the stats of discrimination in the UK and west in general though shocking, are just a mere symptom of deeper underlying problems which no one can pinpoint.

    So for me islam remains as the only comprehensive solution to the issue of womens rights, today.
    Last edited by Dench; 15th March 2012 at 07:58.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    you guys surely dont have 'clerics', the 'qu'ran', or "atturk...illiterate tribal leaders...textual nuances and complex contextual Arabia-speak. And...the great Satan" troubling you, so whats your issues against women? according to you we have islam to blame, who do you blame for the epidemic problem in your house Mr.Im-a-civilised-Islamofascist?
    Hi Dench

    In a word, sin. But note, I don't 'blame' sin, as the question is posed...I simply state what is the root cause.

    Mankind is born with a sin nature, we cannot escape it.

    However, the great difference between Islam and west, is that Islam tries to enforce morality, and that is impossible. Doing right, comes from the heart, not the threat of the sword.

    It is a falacious argument to say the west is 'Christian.' That is a a cheap and foolish argument. The US is the greatest exporter of everything God hates....porn, sexual overtones in almost every TV show and movie, crime, abuse, you name it. Certainly I hold the US was founded with true freedom and democracy in mind, and that this freedom is biblical in nature. But the west has deteriorated.

    I contend that following biblical standards re appropriate dress for women, civility, care/respect/love to our neighbours, etc would radically change the world we live in. In other words, if we were to TRULY accept and follow Jesus' teaching, the world would be different.

    However, we are rotten sinners...and we are in dire need of salvation, which Jesus and his the cross provides.

    Because of man's pride and rottenness, Islam cannot and will not succeed. We see how Islam's aggressive side is on the rise...and this will only get worse. You may well argue that this is not the true Islam (which I happen to believe it is based on certain Koranic verses and the ACTUAL behaviour of pbuh and his leaders/followers), but, unfortunately, that's besides the point. Islam is what the world currently sees and has to put up with.

    This is why there is such a backlack to Islam in countries like Australia. We simply don't like what we see. It's nothing to do with the foolish and meaningless term, Islamophobia.

    Cheers.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    Jude3,
    I dont know where you copy-n-pasted this generic, redundant and hollow argument from, but aside from the obvious holes and contradictions in it, it also fails to be in anyway relevant to my post or come close to even tackling the question i posed.

    i'll address what you've given anyway:

    Quote Originally Posted by jude3 View Post
    Hi Dench

    [COLOR="#FF0000"]In a word, sin. But note, I don't 'blame' sin, as the question is posed...I simply state what is the root cause.

    Mankind is born with a sin nature, we cannot escape it.

    However, the great difference between Islam and west, is that Islam tries to enforce morality, and that is impossible. Doing right, comes from the heart, not the threat of the sword.
    3. obvious point:

    1) So you point at mans 'sinful nature' as the cause of discrimination against women in the west, then you say this 'sinful nature' is innate and impossible to escape...yet for some bizarre reason you then end that very argument by contradicting it,when stating " Doing right, comes from the heart" ..really? how did you work that one out? where did this 'in escapable sinfulness' dissappear to?

    2) aside from the fact that 'enforcment' and 'moraility' here need to be defined, ill skim over that fact and take your end wordings at face-value for argument sake(highlighted in green).

    If man sinfulness is inescapable and innate, then does it make any sense for you to rely on mans 'sinful nature' itself. (ie his heart) to challenge the very sins he himself commits, and expect him to change his actions voluntarily by going against himelf? does that make sense to you?

    Also, going by your assumption about mans condition, your actually making a case for a "the threat of the sword... to impose morality" on an otherwise sinful being, not against it. It actually make more sence to address the problem by imposing barriers to stop man from excercising his sinful nature than to leave him to his own devices. imposition of morality with adequate punishment according to your assessment is the only rational and reasonable to curb mans condition and protect society from itself.

    3) the most obvious problem ive left for last, if you dont blame 'sin' itself, and you dont blame man- rather you excuse it as his natural desposition, and you dont blame the system...then what are you arguing against? moreover, what are argiung for?

    ill be honest with you, to me it seems you dont have a clue as to what it is your talking about, or even know where you stand on this issue to begin with.

    It is a falacious argument to say the west is 'Christian.' That is a a cheap and foolish argument. The US is the greatest exporter of everything God hates....porn, sexual overtones in almost every TV show and movie, crime, abuse, you name it. Certainly I hold the US was founded with true freedom and democracy in mind, and that this freedom is biblical in nature. But the west has deteriorated.
    I never once made an argument of a 'christian' west, nor mentioned anything to do with christianity whatsoever. i talked about islam and the west as it is today. so where this responce to a 'falacious argument' comes from ive got not idea...

    but i agree with the overall sentiments regardless of its off-topicness , so atleast theres some common grounds to be found atleast, which is good.

    I contend that following biblical standards re appropriate dress for women, civility, care/respect/love to our neighbours, etc would radically change the world we live in. In other words, if we were to TRULY accept and follow Jesus' teaching, the world would be different.

    However, we are rotten sinners...and we are in dire need of salvation, which Jesus and his the cross provides.
    Another set of contradictions, according to you man is sinful by his nature, yet you dont hold his nature to account BUT you want him to accept goodness that goes against his 'pride and rotteness' which he 'cant escape from'... what kind of puzzle is this? you want to dictate a biblical moral code on people to save them, But you would happily see them be doomed by their actions of their 'heart' rather than be saved from it by 'enforcing morailty on them' in accordance to islam.

    to make use of a famous quote " ...this is madness!"

    Because of man's pride and rottenness, Islam cannot and will not succeed. We see how Islam's aggressive side is on the rise...and this will only get worse. You may well argue that this is not the true Islam (which I happen to believe it is based on certain Koranic verses and the ACTUAL behaviour of pbuh and his leaders/followers), but, unfortunately, that's besides the point. Islam is what the world currently sees and has to put up with.
    1) Thats a misconception, what you see of the muslim world, the muslims also see (we're not blind). many of the things that may bother you also bother the muslims, we however are in a unique position in that we dont need to go along with the narratives of the orientalists or trash-press, we have qur'an,hadith, a vibrant history, a comprehensive range of academic works and views from within our communities,k both past and present, which address these things. And i share whatever small amount of understanding i can muster up with you to counter your misconception. now your free to reject them as long as its rational and reasonable to do so.

    2) the rise of violent islam, again another issue which you view out of context. let mask you, who rules the muslim lands? are it populas happy with ruler and political imposition? who supresses their peaceful show anger? who supports those rulers who supresses their own people? whose imposing a foreign will on another? you see there many socio-political and geopolitcal issues that you've ignored that are contributing factors in creating the tensions and conflicts we see today.
    This is why there is such a backlack to Islam in countries like Australia. We simply don't like what we see. It's nothing to do with the foolish and meaningless term, Islamophobia.

    Cheers.
    Backlash based on ignorance, misconception,(though these can be cured) or a hate/dislike/malicious intent towards set of people with different norms and practices is islamophobic by it very nature. you may not like the term but if the shoe fits...

    cheers.

    edit: but once again let me remind you, you havent addressed my question. So far you have made argument in favour of islam and destroyed your own position in the process.
    Last edited by Dench; 16th March 2012 at 00:26.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    Because you started with, I dont know where you copy-n-pasted this generic, redundant and hollow argument from, but aside from the obvious holes and contradictions in it, it also fails to be in anyway relevant to my post or come close to even tackling the question i posed....I can't see any value in trying to answer your following post. I'm not interested in an intellectual fight...sorry.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Afghan clerics' guidelines 'a green light for Talibanisation'

    1) So you point at mans 'sinful nature' as the cause of discrimination against women in the west, then you say this 'sinful nature' is innate and impossible to escape...yet for some bizarre reason you then end that very argument by contradicting it,when stating " Doing right, comes from the heart" ..really? how did you work that one out? where did this 'in escapable sinfulness' dissappear to?
    Ezekial 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

    (BREAK)

    The miracle of salvation that Jesus & his sacrifice provides is one of the three most significant events in history so far -

    1. Creation. Man & God are in harmony.
    2. Man sins. Man & God are separated.
    3. Jesus assumes a body of flesh and takes God's wrath on himself, the only human who has not/does not deserve it. God accepts that punishment on Jesus as fulfilled justice for every man who Jesus claims as one of His own. Therefore each man who experiences salvation through God's grace is reconciled to God, regardless of actions, because those actions have been paid for.
    4. (Yet to come) Judgement, followed by a new world.

    I'm not sure what the point of this thread was originally, but Jesus did not come to Earth to make the world a better place for women or any other subset of mankind. If that was the point he would have come as a conquerer and king. Instead, he came as the humblest servant and as a sacrifice to restore mankind's relationship with God. A side effect of that reconciliation on an individual level is often improved morality/behavior/etc., but that is just a byproduct. No "religion" is perfect and Christians are not perfect, and "Christianity" is not even equivalent to salvation. I am sure there are millions of professing Christians who have not experienced this transformation, and I am also sure many who not professing Christians have experienced it, even Muslims (I doubt m/any devout, theologically sound Muslims fall in that category unless recently reconciled, but I do not take my doubt very seriously due to lack of knowledge about Islam.)

    Therefore, judging a people or religion based on actions is besides the point. While I am sure there is some non-zero correlation between being reconciled to God and doing good, it is much closer to zero than many Christians would admit and much closer to zero than those of other religions assume. Judgement will come one day, but humans will not do it, and the only differentiator of where any given human ends up will be whether the miracle of Jesus' sacrifice covers their sin or not. My general views of any religious institution are almost entirely shaped by how well they keep Jesus, His sacrifice, and mankind's need for salvation in the fore.

    (BREAK)

    One other quick note - Violence and sin is on the rise in general in "the West", not just against women. The same is true amongst...not sure how to label the Afgan clerics, so I will not.

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