what kind of an unjust god gives a human a disease/illness and tells him that he can't forgive him because he isn't perfect? what kind an unjust god makes a human a human, places him in a ghetto society and tells him that he cannot be forgivene because he isn't perfect? your god don't know the meaning of just, mate.Absolutely but GOD is also just. This is a concept that I have yet to see a Muslim inderstand. Well of course for there are those Muslimsthat understood and are now Christian.
the God of the TORAH is the God i respect , because He told everyone TO DO the following DEEDS
Wash, purify yourselves, remove the badness of your deeds from before My eyes, stop doing wrong! Learn to do right, seek justice, protect victims, treat orphans justly, support the claims of widows.
"Come, please, let's discuss this rationally," Adonai says - "even if your sins are like bright crimson, I will bleach them as white as snow: even if they are as red as tola I will make them like [the colour of] wool!" (Y'shayahu 1:11-18).
tell me something, disobedient christian, do you FACE jerusalem when you PRAY? your torah COMMANDS u to FACE jerusalem when you pray, oh i forgot , your're gentile lol.
Of course we are all sinful, we repent then turn right around and sign again. No matter how hard we try to be free from sin, but the need for a sacrifice, attonement, repentance, etc. points to how holy GOD is.
don't tell me that depending on 4*4 planks of wood or jesus' deeds which he did to himself to appease himself makes you a better person. or HELPS you avoid sin. lets say that you are attracted to girls, how do you go about reducing your attraction?
you operate on your brain and attempt to remove the memory cell
you hold hands with the girl and praise god
you lower your gaze
you BELIEVE THAT God sees your heart and USE THAT BELIEF to...
you believe that god murdered himself and use that belief to...
Last edited by theman09; 4th March 2012 at 22:21.
If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.
Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm
what? they're gonna put a ban /cleanse holy land of america like yhwh told the jews to cleanse israel from idolatry so that thier children don't grow up and practice idolatry?If this happens- GOOD BYE MUSLIMS!!!
If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.
Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm
How does having a disease make you a sinner, less then perfect?
How does being poor make you a sinner, less then perfect?
Matthew 6
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Sorry? But, even I can very well understand that God is the most Just. What's so unusual about it?
No you didn't understand my question. Why is it that one has to "match" only God's "Holiness"? Why not His other Attributes too?We can never nor are we expected to match HIS wisdom and power. It is HIS holiness that we can not match on our own power.
Oh, and you didn't answer one of my q's regarding Jesus (pbuh) living on the earth among "sinful" people. You say that sinful human beings cannot exist in the presence of a "Holy" God, so what about Jesus? You guys believe him to be God/son of God, don't you? (*sigh*, and then some Christians I know get shocked when I tell them that the trinity is confusing. :/...what is it but darn confusing?!)
Incorrect.Because Islam, Mohammad, the Quran condones subduing and killing of all non-muslims. Inequality for all non-muslims.
No, never heard of it before. But, I'll check it out InshaAllah.Have you ever read the Pact of Omar
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.asp
Oh, alright. Thanks. I thought it was referring to establishing God's Law...this part, "For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment." But y'all don't believe in deeds, right? so, it doesn't really count, eh?Paul is writing to the church in Rome telling them that is they are law abiding citizens they have nothing to fear from the authorities. Only the criminals will be punished. What ever we live we are to behave quietly and peaceably where God has placed us.
Whoa!, really? :OAs I have mentioned before many Muslims do not realize that there are secret home churches and Bible study groups all over Muslim majority countries. Pastor Yousef had over 400 in his congregation alone.
Look at the statement he is saying about Christianity- He is willing to die for his belief and not kill anyone else in the process.
I know of many that pretend to be Muslim to friends and family but are Christian in their hearts. I have heard of this even in European countries! They even go to mosque and pray Christians prayers while all the others are saying the Muslim prayers. For all you know the person right next to you at mosque is a Christian.
I don't know of any such people....haha, of course, why'd they disclose it to me. But, that's really bad, one shouldn't be a hypocrite.
The entire universe is God's Kingdom, He has dominion over all things.Remember the Kingdom of GOD is not of this world.
"His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, It is He Who gives life and causes death; and He is Able to do all things."
(Surah al-Hadid, 57:2)
Life is a test.It doesn't really matter the trials we face on earth.
"Blessed is He in whose hand is dominion, and He is over all things competent -"
"[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving -"
(Surah al-Mulk, 67:1-2)
True.The prayers for the presecuted is that they stay strong and not cave into accepting something they do not believe.
But, being a Muslim Alhamdullilah, I pray that God Almighty Guides Nadarkhani back to Islam. Ameen. Cuz, I believe Islam has the key to salvation.
I do not see allah being just -administering reward or punishment. All Muslims have to do is say sorry.
We can match nothing of GOD's attributes. It is only because of Jesus can we be seen as holy in GOD's eyes.
Jesus being born of a woman took on our took on our human frailities.
Quran, Mohammad condoning inequality. There are many verses and even hadith that condone all kinds of thigs:
009.029 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
How long have you been a Muslim?
You do not know about?:
James 2
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
The hypocrites that Jesus was upset with were the ones that tried to show how religious they were when in their hearts they were the worst of sinners.
Last edited by patrick; 5th March 2012 at 21:38.
patrick, are you the patrick silly posting your sele arguments here?
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspo...-of-jesus.html
?
they're doing a good job on you.
Last edited by theman09; 7th March 2012 at 15:22.
If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.
Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm
"The repentance accepted by Allah is only for those who do wrong in ignorance [or carelessness] and then repent soon after. It is those to whom Allah will turn in forgiveness, and Allah is ever Knowing and Wise."
"But repentance is not [accepted] of those who [continue to] do evil deeds up until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "Indeed, I have repented now," or of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment."
(The Holy Quran, Surah an-Nisa 4:17-18)
See? it's more than just saying sorry. It's a matter of the heart. There's a hadith of the Prophet (pbuh) which says, "Actions are based on intentions", so it's not so simple. Faith is complete with intention in the heart, actions of the body and verbal profession.
Of course, the Christian perspective. I don't agree. For me, God Almighty is All-Forgiving, He forgives us when we repent, no matter how much we've sinned.We can match nothing of GOD's attributes. It is only because of Jesus can we be seen as holy in GOD's eyes.
Jesus being born of a woman took on our took on our human frailities.
"But indeed, I am the Perpetual Forgiver of whoever repents and believes and does righteousness and then continues in guidance."
(The Holy Quran, Surah Taha 20:82)
"And those who, having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls, earnestly bring Allah to mind, and ask for forgiveness for their sins,- and who can forgive sins except Allah?- and are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done."
For such the reward is forgiveness from their Lord, and Gardens with rivers flowing underneath,- an eternal dwelling: How excellent a recompense for those who work (and strive)!"
(The Holy Quran , Surah Ale-Imran, 3:135-36)
You're quoting the verse out of context. See, this is how it should be interpreted.Quran, Mohammad condoning inequality. There are many verses and even hadith that condone all kinds of thigs:
009.029 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Cool. But, then shouldn't the ten commandments be considered OBLIGATORY as they always were by Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples?You do not know about?:
James 2
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Right, makes sense, thanks. In fact, now I realize it's the same case with Islam.The hypocrites that Jesus was upset with were the ones that tried to show how religious they were when in their hearts they were the worst of sinners.
That's really rude.![]()
What about this? "Love your neighbor as yourself.", isn't this like the second greatest commandment?
And, besides, that's never gonna happen. The First Amendment states that, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." It prohibits the government from establishing an official religion, or from favoring or disfavoring one view of religion over another.
You posted the picture about church and state getting together. You are missing my point. I am not saying I would want this or that any true Christian would. Look what Catholism did to the Muslims when church and state were joined. People are sinners and power corrupts people.
I enjoy multiculturalism and church and state must stay separate.
We are discussing though what would happen if church and state became one - tolerance goes out the window.
So you agree no to Sharia in our secular courts?
Why do so many Muslims misunderstand how the following is to be interpreted?
009.029 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
http://www.theholybook.org/content/view/6968/2/
How do you measure mischief? Am I waging war against Allah of the Quran and Mohammad?
005.033 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
The 10 commandments are obligatory, but check it out- Jesus simplificies it for us:
Matthew 22
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Oh. I'm so sorry, my bad.
No, that's not the case with Islam.We are discussing though what would happen if church and state became one - tolerance goes out the window.
Yep, cuz it's God's Law after all. His Divine Wisdom should be trusted, it's much above the level of the finite human mind. Don't you think God's Law is better than man-made laws?So you agree no to Sharia in our secular courts?
You mean they take it out of context? I dunno, some people misuse the Scripture to justify their own ideals, which is wrong. You agree with the interpretation I linked you to, right?Why do so many Muslims misunderstand how the following is to be interpreted?
009.029 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
I'd have to check this out before commenting on it, InshaAllah.http://www.theholybook.org/content/view/6968/2/
How do you measure mischief? Am I waging war against Allah of the Quran and Mohammad?
005.033 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
I know this verse. I had asked the same earlier to one of my friends, and this is what they say too. But, elsewhere Jesus (pbuh) tells his disciples to keep the law. I'd have to search for the references but you might be knowing.The 10 commandments are obligatory, but check it out- Jesus simplificies it for us:
Matthew 22
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Thanks.
If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.
Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm
How can you say that? Have you read the Pact of Umar? Look at what is happening to non-muslims and women in emerging Islamic countires today! I wonder how Pastor Yousef is doing? Is he still alive?
I think of "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" as a simply way of condensing all the Laws into an easy to remember formula. Whatever you do is it pleasing and loving to GOD? What ever you do is it pleasing and loving to your neighbor?
Here is something I find interesting:
Neighbor here in Matthew 22 means everyone, not just brethren or a fellow Christian.
In Islam:
048.029 Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
It is as if Mohammad/allah is worried a Muslim would loss their faith if you showed compassion to an disbeliever/enemy. Is Islam that weak of a religion? Are Muslims that weak of believers?
Not Muslim enough persecutions:
Stoned to death for being an emo: NINETY Iraqi students killed for having 'strange hair and tight clothes' By Daily Mail Reporter
PUBLISHED: 05:55 EST, 10 March 2012 | UPDATED: 07:55 EST, 10 March 2012
More than 90 Iraqi students have been stoned to death for their Emo haircuts by religious extremists in Baghdad in the past month after an interior ministry statement dubbed it devil worshipping.
Iraq's Moral Police released a statement on the interior ministry's website condemning the 'emo phenomenon' among Iraqi youth, declaring its intent to 'eliminate' the trend.
'The Emo phenomenon or devil worshipping is being followed by the Moral Police who have the approval to eliminate [the phenomenon] as soon as possible since it's detrimentally affecting the society and becoming a danger,' the statement read.
Iraqi activists said this unnamed teenager was brutally killed by religious police for having an 'emo' hairstyle
'They wear strange, tight clothes that have pictures on them such as skulls and use stationary that are shaped as skulls. They also wear rings on their noses and tongues, and do other strange activities,'.
Since the statement was published religious extremists have been harassing and killing teenagers with 'strange' or 'emo' appearances.
A group of armed men dressed in civilian clothing led dozens of teenagers to secluded areas a few days ago, stoned them to death, and then disposed their bodies in garbage dumpsters across the capital, according to activists, activists told the Cairo-based al-Akhbar website.
The armed men are said to belong to 'one of the most extremist religious groups' in Iraq.
'First they throw concrete blocks at the boy's arms, then at his legs, then the final blow is to his head, and if he is not dead then, they start all over again,' one person who managed to escape told Al-Akhbar.
Iraq's moral police was granted approval by the Ministry of Education to enter Baghdad schools and pinpoint students with such appearances, according to the interior ministry's statement.
The exact death toll remains unclear, but Hana al-Bayaty of Brussels Tribunal, an NGO dealing with Iraqi issues, said the current figure ranges 'between 90 and 100.'
'What's most disturbing about this is that they're so young,' she said.
The youth was one of nearly 100 who were targeted for having a western hairstyle or wearing 'American jeans'
Al-Bayaty said the killings appear to have been carried out by extremist Shia militias in mostly poor Shia neighborhoods and said she suspected 'there's complicity of the Ministry of Interior in the killings.'
Photos of the victims were released on Facebook, causing panic and fear among Iraqi students.
A young man with long hair expressed alarm at the government-ordained harassment of teenagers with Western appearances.
'I have long hair but that doesn't mean I'm an Emo. I'm not less of a man if I have long hair. Let's not say that if I have long hair, I'm a homosexual, but I have long hair because this is my style, this is me,' he told Iraq's Al-Sharqiya television network.
Safiyyah al-Suhail, an MP, said on Thursday that 'some students have been recently arrested because they were wearing American jeans or had Western haircuts.'
The interior ministry has not disclosed the number of teenage victims, but released a follow-up statement on Thursday warning extremists 'not to step on public freedom of Iraqis.'
News of the gruesome deaths drew a stern reaction from Iraq's prominent Shia cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who criticised the stoning of the young men as 'an act of terrorism.'
He added: "The Ministry of Interior took this situation very seriously and received an approval from the Ministry of Education to set a plan under my full supervision and to allow us to enter schools in the capital."
'There are some cases of the spread of this phenomenon specifically among schools in Baghdad, but we are facing great difficulty in the lack of women on the force who would allow us to carry the investigation more accurately since the phenomenon is more popular among girls between the ages of 14 and 18.'