Koranic facts...

[Bowman]

LOL'ed

show me dragon word first

How is it that fire is emitted from the mouths of horses in sura 100?

[Ron]

Bowman,

How is it that fire is emitted from the mouths of horses in sura 100?

It's not baseball but you know what comes next...

[hasena]

The first verse (1:1),known as "Basmalah," consists of 19 letters.
The Quran consists of 114 suras and 30 paras
ALLAH is the sole guardian of quran

[Ron]

Hasena,

The first verse (1:1),known as "Basmalah," consists of 19 letters

.
That's interesting...is this in English, Arabic or some other language? If it is in Arabic when was the last time you read it? And when was the last time you counted it? Also, assuming you are correct what is the significance of 19 letter?

The Quran consists of 114 suras and 30 paras

Was this divinely arranged?

[StopS]

What baffles me is that followers or believers of 2 religions try to outdo each other when neither can prove their case. Both religions are based on the faith that a god exists with slightly different criteria. Both have texts which claim the direct and personal interaction of their god with this planet. Can either prove this? No.
Will any proponent ever convince the other? Hardly.
Can they both be right? No. Can both be wrong? Yes.


Another thing I don't understand, is why the concept of a trinity is so difficult. If I buy a car and if I buy a BMW or a 3-series or an M3, I am buying one car. Each denomination allows for different possibilities, features and functions but refers to one single car. Of course the analogy immediately breaks down when you try to allocate godly attributes to the 3 definitions, but it explains the initial 3=1 problem much better than the water, ice, steam analogy. So if I worship the M3 I am acknowledging the 3-series and that this M3 is part of BMW. But the part that is closest to me is the M3, not necessarily BMW.

Have I overlooked a basic flaw in this?

[Ron]

How is a car, a BMW and a 3 series distinct yet the same? Your example is terribly flawed.

[StopS]

How is a car, a BMW and a 3 series distinct yet the same? Your example is terribly flawed.

Really? Well, let's see. A BMW can be a car, a 3-series can be a car and an M3 can be a car.
A 3-series is a BMW and the M3 is a BMW. So the M3 is a 3-series and a BMW all in one. 3=1. Not so flawed.
They are very different as a 3-series can be a 318, which you can't compare to an M3 at all, especially if you say the M3 is the convertible.
And the BMW can be an aircraft engine, a car or a motorbike. All very and distinctively different. Not so flawed.

[shaad_lko]

Really? Well, let's see. A BMW can be a car, a 3-series can be a car and an M3 can be a car.
A 3-series is a BMW and the M3 is a BMW. So the M3 is a 3-series and a BMW all in one. 3=1. Not so flawed.
They are very different as a 3-series can be a 318, which you can't compare to an M3 at all, especially if you say the M3 is the convertible.
And the BMW can be an aircraft engine, a car or a motorbike. All very and distinctively different. Not so flawed.

good one, you finally proved Trinity - though by extending your argument a little bit, one can also prove an Infinity of gods.. !

[StopS]

good one, you finally proved Trinity - though by extending your argument a little bit, one can also prove an Infinity of gods.. !

Hahaha, goodness, no. I think it's a funny, nonsensical and peculiar concept. I am just showing that it is not so complicated theoretically and on a conceptual level.

Yes, this is true. Which is not far from the truth. We have ~200 active gods today, all claiming to be the only one and all claiming to have created the Universe. And the Koran even states many times that the god of the Muslims is the best of the creators or schemers, helpers, plotters, warners, etc, so there must be several. But maybe I am wrong in my interpretation on this one. Tell me if I am, I'd be interested in your opinion.

[Ron]

StopS,

Really? Well, let's see. A BMW can be a car, a 3-series can be a car and an M3 can be a car.

Yes, "can be" is the operative word...we all know BMW is not a car it is a vehicle manufacturing company, a 3 series is a model and an M3 is a higher model 3 series. So they are very different as we can agree but they are not the same in any sense. They are not equal. There is no unity. Nothing.

A 3-series is a BMW and the M3 is a BMW. So the M3 is a 3-series and a BMW all in one. 3=1. Not so flawed.

Still terrible. In your example BMW would have to be the "god" in this lineup...so you're missing at least one player.

Father = god
Son = god
Holy Spirit = god

vs.

3 series = BMW
M3 = BMW (technically this is wrong too because an M3 is a 3 series just better, in the Trinity they are all co-equal)
BMW = ???

There is a reason why it's called a mystery...2000 years later BMW solved it...maybe not.

[shaad_lko]

And the Koran even states many times that the god of the Muslims is the best of the creators or schemers, helpers, plotters, warners, etc, so there must be several. But maybe I am wrong in my interpretation on this one. Tell me if I am, I'd be interested in your opinion.

there may be several plotters, et al. but what the Quran says is this :

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begets not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (112:1-4)

It does not admit of any share in the Divinity or Kingdom of God. It shows that the Creator of all this expanse is One, and whatever else has been set up by humans is false. Translation may sometimes confuse the issue as when the Quran warns Jews not to be the first among disbelievers, it does not mean that it is okay to be the second or third among disbelievers. Similarly, when it says do not sell God's signs for a low price, it does not mean it is okay to sell them for a high price. This is its standard way of emphasizing the debased nature of false concepts.

[StopS]

StopS,

Yes, "can be" is the operative word...we all know BMW is not a car it is a vehicle manufacturing company, a 3 series is a model and an M3 is a higher model 3 series. So they are very different as we can agree but they are not the same in any sense. They are not equal. There is no unity. Nothing.

Still terrible. In your example BMW would have to be the "god" in this lineup...so you're missing at least one player.

Father = god
Son = god
Holy Spirit = god

vs.

3 series = BMW
M3 = BMW (technically this is wrong too because an M3 is a 3 series just better, in the Trinity they are all co-equal)
BMW = ???

There is a reason why it's called a mystery...2000 years later BMW solved it...maybe not.

If I am asked: what car do you drive, I can say a BMW and this would be a perfectly valid answer. As would the other 2 options.

Of course there is a unity. Are you being difficult on purpose? All 3, BMW, 3-series and M3 all refer to a car, as father, son and ghost refer to a god.

There can be different cars just as there can be different gods. There can be different sub-divisions. I did not make my analogy clear enough, it seems. I thought it was obvious.

BMW=car
3-series=car
M3=car

[StopS]

StopS,

Yes, "can be" is the operative word...we all know BMW is not a car it is a vehicle manufacturing company, a 3 series is a model and an M3 is a higher model 3 series. So they are very different as we can agree but they are not the same in any sense. They are not equal. There is no unity. Nothing.

Still terrible. In your example BMW would have to be the "god" in this lineup...so you're missing at least one player.

Father = god
Son = god
Holy Spirit = god

vs.

3 series = BMW
M3 = BMW (technically this is wrong too because an M3 is a 3 series just better, in the Trinity they are all co-equal)
BMW = ???

There is a reason why it's called a mystery...2000 years later BMW solved it...maybe not.

If I am asked: what car do you drive, I can say a BMW and this would be a perfectly valid answer. As would the other 2 options.

Of course there is a unity. Are you being difficult on purpose? All 3, BMW, 3-series and M3 all refer to a car, as father, son and ghost refer to a god.

There can be different cars just as there can be different gods. There can be different sub-divisions. I did not make my analogy clear enough, it seems. I thought it was obvious.

BMW=car
3-series=car
M3=car

[Ron]

Not being difficult, you're stretching so much it's absurd. Again, BMW is not a car exclusively. That in itself shatters your explanation. The father is exclusively a god, so is the son, so is the spirit. BMW is a car, a motorcycle, etc... The problem with your assertion is it only addresses the name game but not the concept. Again, 2000 years and the mystery lives on your BMW example fails. Besides, while all three are a car they are merely a version of the other. The trinity doesn't work that way. They are separate but equal, unified but exclusive, etc...

[patrick]

there may be several plotters, et al. but what the Quran says is this :

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begets not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (112:1-4)

It does not admit of any share in the Divinity or Kingdom of God. It shows that the Creator of all this expanse is One, and whatever else has been set up by humans is false. Translation may sometimes confuse the issue as when the Quran warns Jews not to be the first among disbelievers, it does not mean that it is okay to be the second or third among disbelievers. Similarly, when it says do not sell God's signs for a low price, it does not mean it is okay to sell them for a high price. This is its standard way of emphasizing the debased nature of false concepts.

What exactly is the definition of the word translated as begotten in verse 112:3?

Thanks.