Koranic facts...

[Ron]

StopS,

You didn't understand and I don't think you want to...I didn't quote any Hadith and the verses mentioned as you explained them are off the mark. Yet again, it seems your are not genuinely interested in learning anything; rather, you want to posit your preconceived notions. Like Shad said you're comparing an article of faith to how many times one is supposed to pray. Lastly, by not specifying the exact time of the suns position but mention the stages it allows for parts of the world to figure it differently according to their needs.

Lastly, I don't want to converse with you either considering your attitude and your posting history. You really are not doing anyone a favor. Maybe it's entertaining for you but I can think of far better things than waste your time with a religion and people you are averse to.

[StopS]

StopS,

You didn't understand and I don't think you want to...I didn't quote any Hadith and the verses mentioned as you explained them are off the mark. Yet again, it seems your are not genuinely interested in learning anything; rather, you want to posit your preconceived notions. Like Shad said you're comparing an article of faith to how many times one is supposed to pray. Lastly, by not specifying the exact time of the suns position but mention the stages it allows for parts of the world to figure it differently according to their needs.

Lastly, I don't want to converse with you either considering your attitude and your posting history. You really are not doing anyone a favor. Maybe it's entertaining for you but I can think of far better things than waste your time with a religion and people you are averse to.

Ah. you run out of points and play tit for tat. Fine by me. If you don't want to clarify the points, it's your choice.

[justavisitor]

Lastly, by not specifying the exact time of the suns position but mention the stages it allows for parts of the world to figure it differently according to their needs.

But does this mean the people living in arctic regions cannot perform the obligatory sunset and night prayers during 6 months?

[hyd]

The Sahabah (radi Allahu anhum) asked Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) about the Dajjal,.... The Sahabah asked, “O Messenger of Allah, on that day which is like a year, will the Salat (prayers) of one day be sufficient for us?” Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) replied, “No. Calculate the time (for prayer).” [Sahih Muslim]

[StopS]

The Sahabah (radi Allahu anhum) asked Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) about the Dajjal,.... The Sahabah asked, “O Messenger of Allah, on that day which is like a year, will the Salat (prayers) of one day be sufficient for us?” Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) replied, “No. Calculate the time (for prayer).” [Sahih Muslim]

Are you sure this is referring to people living in regions above 70 latitude?

The Sahabah (radi Allahu anhum) asked Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) about the Dajjal, “O Messenger of Allah, how long will he stay on earth?” He replied, “Forty days; a day like a year, a day like a month, a day like a week, and the rest of the days like your days.” The Sahabah asked, “O Messenger of Allah, on that day which is like a year, will the Salat (prayers) of one day be sufficient for us?” Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) replied, “No. Calculate the time (for prayer).” [Sahih Muslim]

It looks as though it refers to the Messiah and the duration of his stay on Earth.

[DocW]

But does this mean the people living in arctic regions cannot perform the obligatory sunset and night prayers during 6 months?

People who live in areas where there is 6 months of day light and 6 months of night make provisions to carry out their day to day activities in that time i.e. sleep eat work, they organise the time of prayers accordingly. Quran has repeatedly stressed that the purpose of religin is not hardship. There is "leave" when travelling or if someone is ill in fasting, one can do without ablution during travel or water is not available. God knows our intentions and our circumstances . Thus whoever tried to do his best in his given circumstances will be rewarded accordingly.

Liekwise the same applies for duration of fasting in those areas.

[hyd]

Are you sure this is referring to people living in regions above 70 latitude?

The Sahabah (radi Allahu anhum) asked Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) about the Dajjal, “O Messenger of Allah, how long will he stay on earth?” He replied, “Forty days; a day like a year, a day like a month, a day like a week, and the rest of the days like your days.” The Sahabah asked, “O Messenger of Allah, on that day which is like a year, will the Salat (prayers) of one day be sufficient for us?” Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) replied, “No. Calculate the time (for prayer).” [Sahih Muslim]

It looks as though it refers to the Messiah and the duration of his stay on Earth.

Yes, but fuqaha have used that to drive rulings for regions with unusual timings + what DocW mentioned in the above post.

[StopS]

Yes, but fuqaha have used that to drive rulings for regions with unusual timings + what DocW mentioned in the above post.

I understand, thanks. Which means that humans have to decide what the Koran means and adjust accordingly.
I don't think there are any regions with unusual timings.
The tilting of 23.5 degrees results in shifting sunrise and sunset times, which is due to natural results of a huge body colliding with Earth and causing the off-set. This was not known yet at the time so the Koran makes no provision for this.

[shaad_lko]

Sorry couldnt help commenting on this one :

Which means that humans have to decide what the Koran means and adjust accordingly.

This is true to an extent, in the case of practices especially, but not in the field of ethics or beliefs which are not relative. In fact, Quran is absolutely clear on those aspects (argument could be extended, but then for simplicity's sake this should suffice..)

The tilting of 23.5 degrees results in shifting sunrise and sunset times, which is due to natural results of a huge body colliding with Earth and causing the off-set. This was not known yet at the time so the Koran makes no provision for this.

The correct statement would be : This was not known yet at the time so the Qur'an makes no mention of it.

[hyd]

I don't think there are any regions with unusual timings.

A region with 6 months day and night, i would call that a region with unusual timings.

[StopS]

A region with 6 months day and night, i would call that a region with unusual timings.

Could you elaborate on why you would?

[hyd]

Could you elaborate on why you would?

Why wouldn't I? 6 months day is usual?

[StopS]

Why wouldn't I? 6 months day is usual?

So you can't explain.
Yes, in some areas of this planet it happens every year. And it has happened for the last couple of billion years. so, yes. very usual.

What is strange is that initially, you flat out assert: "fuqaha have used that to drive rulings for regions with unusual timings"

When I question this, you switch to conditional: "i would call that a region with unusual timings"

When I ask for an explanation you now go with conditional and in question form: "6 months day is usual?"

Why don't you do it the other way around? Then it would be more sensible, I think.

But let's move this forward to the real issue I have: do you believe the Koran has in mind the people either side of 70 degrees latitude when issuing rules relating to sunrise and sunset?
Are the 2 Wests and the 2 Easts in the Koran a realistic representation of our planet and easy to understand and explained? (55:17)

DocW has shown a practical way how humans today are capable of adjusting the Koranic texts and consolidating the rigorous texts with everyday reality. And this is what I see in everyday life with my colleagues, who are 21st century Muslims. They accept evolution and don't consider the Koran to be a literally correct document, but providing loose guidance. They try more to be good human beings than dogmatic Muslims. But I can't discuss religious issues with them at work, which is why I ask my questions here to find out how practising Muslims see things.

[shaad_lko]

per any sensible being, 6 months of sunlight is unusual, irrespective of whether it has happened for billions or trillions of years in a particular area.. However, for those blinded in their own worldview, nothing would make sense.

[Hawkeye]

Interesting thread but excessive literalism leads to Nonsence. There is an excellent study on luna sightings that shows how silly such liberalism breads. Have a look it written by Muslims http://ecumene.org/IIS/csss28.htm