Koranic facts...

[StopS]

Maybe if you actually studied the verses that led people to try and define the Triune GOD you might be able to come up with an analogy. Here are just a few to get you started:

No, thanks

I know the story and the history, so no, they don't make sense. What does "actually studied the verses" mean? I read them. I did not read the original texts in this case. The fact alone that the trinity is not mentioned and defined by the authors of the Bible themselves shows how spurious the entire concept is. Humans tried to and then did this and used the sentences you mentioned to construct something. You MUST be aware of all the logical deconstructions. Anyway, this is about Koranic facts and not the concept of the trinity in Christianity, so I suggest we go back on topic.

[patrick]

No, thanks

I know the story and the history, so no, they don't make sense. What does "actually studied the verses" mean? I read them. I did not read the original texts in this case. The fact alone that the trinity is not mentioned and defined by the authors of the Bible themselves shows how spurious the entire concept is. Humans tried to and then did this and used the sentences you mentioned to construct something. You MUST be aware of all the logical deconstructions. Anyway, this is about Koranic facts and not the concept of the trinity in Christianity, so I suggest we go back on topic.

You just the other day promised you would keep studying!

Whether the word was mentioned is not the issue- the concept is there.

Actually though I as a "trinitarian" Christian do wish the concept had never been labeled. I understand why the early church fathers tried to label it though.

The very closest analogy which I hate to bring up because it has a bad conatation is:

A person with 3 personalities- a split personality. Have you ever studied this? Depending on the situation different personalities appear. There can be a personality that has more strenth, or one that is in charge. The personalities can speak to each other, etc.

[shaad_lko]

The very closest analogy which I hate to bring up because it has a bad conatation is:

A person with 3 personalities- a split personality. Have you ever studied this? Depending on the situation different personalities appear. There can be a personality that has more strenth, or one that is in charge. The personalities can speak to each other, etc.

it does have a bad connotation.. God has a split personality ?

[patrick]

it does have a bad connotation.. God has a split personality ?

We must get rid of the bad connotation. Split personalities are what has allowed some people to endure horrific events. The splitting is not necessarily a bad thing but the event that caused the split.

[StopS]

You just the other day promised you would keep studying!

Whether the word was mentioned is not the issue- the concept is there.

Actually though I as a "trinitarian" Christian do wish the concept had never been labeled. I understand why the early church fathers tried to label it though.

The very closest analogy which I hate to bring up because it has a bad conatation is:

A person with 3 personalities- a split personality. Have you ever studied this? Depending on the situation different personalities appear. There can be a personality that has more strenth, or one that is in charge. The personalities can speak to each other, etc.

Oh yes, I will keep on learning and studying. But, sorry, it must go somewhere and must enhance my knowledge. Studying the concept of trinity leads to what? Nothing tangible or useful.

You believe the concept of something humans call trinity is there. It's the same as Muslims telling me the concept of 5 prayers a day is in the Koran. It is not. It is a typical case of humans applying their confirmation bias to find something they think can mean something - even if it is not really there.

No, I have not studied triple split minds. And I don't intend to.

[shaad_lko]

You believe the concept of something humans call trinity is there. It's the same as Muslims telling me the concept of 5 prayers a day is in the Koran. It is not. It is a typical case of humans applying their confirmation bias to find something they think can mean something - even if it is not really there.

actually, 5 prayers are not there specifically in the Quran, so you're right. But Muslims never said they were either.. Quran is a collection of orations, didnt need to mention something that was already well-known, it did not come in a vacuum anyway. 5 prayers are performed by Muslims because the practice was instituted in the community by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

[Ron]

Comparing whether the five prayers are mentioned in the Qur'an to the concept of the Trinity is like comparing...Please read Reference of Five Prayers in the Qur'an.

[StopS]

Comparing whether the five prayers are mentioned in the Qur'an to the concept of the Trinity is like comparing...Please read Reference of Five Prayers in the Qur'an.

Sorry, I don't get it.

My point is that to get to the concept of trinity, one needs to take multiple verses, imply this and interpret that and then it still takes a human to formulate it.

The same goes for the prayer times in Islam. Does the Koran say: believers should pray pray 5 times a day at this hour? No.

The reference you sent me to, agrees with this, as it says: "The timings of the five prayers is an established Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). Its source is not the Qur'an" So, just as the trinity concept, it requires scratching around the various sentences and then humans have to interpret this and finally formulate this. Where is the difference? Am I missing something? Is my analysis skewed?

What I left out here completely is aspect of falsifiability. The prayer times are sun-based. The rising and setting of the visible sun determines the prayer times just as moon sighting determines the start and end of Ramadan. But in high latitude areas, the sun is not available as determinant factor, so again humans need to step in to fix the omission.

If I am in error, please correct me.

[shaad_lko]

Hi.

You're assuming here that the Quran would clarify the practical rites of the religion of Islam. Trinity is an article of faith in Christianity, and articles of faith in Islam are exclusively handled by the Quranic text. However, for practical matters there is no reason to believe that the Quran would give details of their performance, as it already cites that the Prophet is the best example to follow for the believers.

Secondly, Quran is not a book of historical account like the OT and NT. Rather, it is a collection of Divine orations revealed unto Prophet Muhammad and recited by him to the immediate addresses (the first community of believers, viz the 7th century Arabs). So there are many things not in the Quran and there was no imperative for it to have much stuff - orations usually assume context and circumstances are well-known to the addressees. That is why the Sunna (practice) of the Prophet handed down from generation to generation is an integral source of Islamic rites.

In high latitudes, yes humans have to apply their mind to determine prayer times, but this is not an omission - rather the Quran asks us to apply our mind in all circumstances. What the prayer times mean is a standard way of praying - they are not meant to be applied to exceptions. Similarly, when the Quran says pork is forbidden, it also adds that there could be exceptional circumstances when one can partake of it due to necessity. The well-known generic customs do not apply to exceptional cases and this can hardly be called an omission in Islam, or even leaving aside religion it cannot be called an omission in any field.

To add to it, falsifiability is again in the domain of statements of belief, not about customs. So Trinity vs monotheism would be an apt comparison in this case, not the manner and times of praying.

May peace be on you.

[patrick]

Comparing whether the five prayers are mentioned in the Qur'an to the concept of the Trinity is like comparing...Please read Reference of Five Prayers in the Qur'an.

So why not compare a similar subject - how we are taught to pray:

Matthew 6
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Matthew 7
7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

1 Thessalonians 5
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray continually, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

I used to have trouble with this one as a kid:
Matthew 21
21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Until I realized that many times what I was praying for wasn't what was best for me spiritually. GOD always has that concern for our spiritual growth and usually that occurs through hardships.

You have heard the saying -No pain, no gain!!

[Ron]

StopS,

Yes you are in error. You quoted one sentence and cut it off from the context of the answer. That verse quoted covers the prayer timings, unlike the Bible discussing the trinity. In addition, Islam is not just the Qur'an...the Sunnah is just as much a source. So the Qur'an mentions prayers and states a time frame of when they fall while the Sunnah exemplifies it and shows the practical carrying out of the prayers. They go hand-in-hand. So the objection is flawed in the first place and the comparison is invalid.

Lastly, the mechanical aspect of it is the timing using the sun but the religiously spiritual aspect is to be in tune with the Almighty and be in contact with Him at least five times a day.

[StopS]

StopS,

Yes you are in error. You quoted one sentence and cut it off from the context of the answer. That verse quoted covers the prayer timings, unlike the Bible discussing the trinity. In addition, Islam is not just the Qur'an...the Sunnah is just as much a source. So the Qur'an mentions prayers and states a time frame of when they fall while the Sunnah exemplifies it and shows the practical carrying out of the prayers. They go hand-in-hand. So the objection is flawed in the first place and the comparison is invalid.

Lastly, the mechanical aspect of it is the timing using the sun but the religiously spiritual aspect is to be in tune with the Almighty and be in contact with Him at least five times a day.

Really? Could you please tell me the sentence in the Koran which specifies that Muslims are required to pray 5x a day?

Patrick did a great job of collecting the sentences which are commonly used to explain the foundation of the trinity.
I can go and collect the sentences in the Koran which could maybe refer to prayer times.

I do not consider a hadith a verse. A hadith is a man-made sentence. No discussion here, I think. My point is that both, Christians and Muslims have to rely on human interpretation and intervention when it comes to certain definitions.

Muslims are created to worship. That's their raison d'etre. To worship. A god. Their creator. Does this creator specify when and how? No. Humans have to make that up. In the hadiths. Man-made hadiths. Human interpretations. Which contradict each other and the Koran and sometimes are simply ridiculous. So I will concentrate only on what Muslims believe to be divine origins, if you don't mind.

No, sorry, the Koran does NOT specify "a time frame of when they fall". There are some examples, but no rules in the Koran. I only know of 3 prayer times, which are not even times but vague wordings - and they are all over the book.

1. Salaat-al Fajr-DAWN (24:58; 11:114).
2. Salaat-al Esha-EVENING (24:58; 17:78; 11:114)
3. Salaat-al Wusta- MIDDLE (2:238; 17:78)

So instead of what you and I would do and say: you need to worship me by doing 5 things: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, where the 2nd thing, prayer, is to be performed at these times in this manner, we get some vague indications of when to pray and how.

The result is that Sunni and Shia Muslims have different understandings and within the Sunni we have different regions or madhabs developing their own details of this ritual.

So, sorry, all you have done is introduce the hadiths as a confusing factor, without addressing any of my concerns.

In my eyes one of the greatest shortfalls of the Koran is exactly this omission of not being able to specify times based on the sun useful and possible for all and everyone. Look at fasting in Alta in Northern Norway! It would last for months because there is no sunset or sunrise. Would a god really make such a huge mistake?

[shaad_lko]

In my eyes one of the greatest shortfalls of the Koran is exactly this omission of not being able to specify times based on the sun useful and possible for all and everyone. Look at fasting in Alta in Northern Norway! It would last for months because there is no sunset or sunrise. Would a god really make such a huge mistake?

this is one of the greatest strengths of the Quran - in that it remains eternally valid for all times and places - the message is always relevant, the implementation of form may change due to circumstances. Thus, whether it is the 7th century Arab or a 21st century Eskimo, they can follow it with equal ease. Your presumption that the Quran is supposed to be a manual with detailed instructions on performance of rites is baseless and you will always encounter such problems unless you accept the (obvious) fact that Sunna is a primary source of Islam which goes hand-in-hand with the Quran. A true God would never make the mistake of freezing one particular performance of an important act like Salah - the basic method has been demonstrated, now it is upto the believers to implement it in the best possible manner.

And as usual, you chickened out from accepting the difference between an article of faith like Trinity and a ritual like prayer.

[StopS]

And as usual, you chickened out from accepting the difference between an article of faith like Trinity and a ritual like prayer.

Please don't try your nonsense with me and leave me alone. I am not interested in any interaction with you. Why? Your attitude and condescending, obnoxious tone. Your typical usage here of "as usual" when there is nothing to substantiate it and I have answered it - but you are too blind in your hate to see it. So leave it. Please.

[shaad_lko]

Please don't try your nonsense with me and leave me alone. I am not interested in any interaction with you. Why? Your attitude and condescending, obnoxious tone. Your typical usage here of "as usual" when there is nothing to substantiate it and I have answered it - but you are too blind in your hate to see it. So leave it. Please.

Firstly, this is supposed to be a public forum, and everyone can reply to everyone (though there is no obligation). In fact, I should be the one upset since you are calling names like nonsense and obnoxious..

Now, as usual is what you've really done, since you are sidestepping the issue and refusing to engage with it but persisting in simply repeating your arguments which have been dealt with already. What's the point in cutting a sorry figure, if you want to have a private conversation with someone, you're most welcome to do so.. Or is it the case that when you can no longer reply rationally to any argument you start the condescension-plea..?