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Thread: jesus in genesis?

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    WHO WAS JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA?


    Mark 15:43 – “…a respected member of the council, who was also himself
    looking for the kingdom of God…”


    Matthew 27:57 – “…a rich man… who was also a disciple of Jesus…”


    Luke 23:50b-51 – “He was a member of the council, a good and righteous
    man, who had not consented to their purpose and deed, and he was also
    looking for the kingdom of God.”


    John 19:38 – “…a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the
    Jews…”


    Both Mark and Luke describe Joseph of Arimathea as “a member of the
    council,” both “respected” (Mark) and “good and righteous” (Luke), who
    was “looking for the kingdom of God.” Luke adds the critical detail
    that Joseph “had not consented” to the council’s “purpose and deed.”
    Matthew, who had Mark in front of him, drops Joseph’s affiliation with
    the council and simply identifies him as “a rich man” (in a deliberate
    attempt to fulfill Isaiah 53:9?) and as a “disciple of Jesus.” John,
    the members of whose community are dealing with being ostracized from
    the synagogues because of their faith in Jesus, depicts Joseph as one
    of his own, a “secret” disciple “for fear of the Jews.” Both Matthew
    and John ignore Joseph’s membership in the council, due in no small
    part to the difficulties that Matthew’s and John’s communities were
    having with their Jewish neighbors; John goes so far as to
    differentiate Joseph from “the Jews” even though both Mark and Luke
    identify him as a member of the council. In light of this, we should
    not place too much weight on John’s description of Joseph as being a
    “secret” disciple out of fear; after all, Joseph’s opposition to the
    council’s actions (as reported by Luke) most certainly is not the
    action of a “secret” disciple who is afraid of “the Jews.” How “rich”
    he was is also subject to debate, given Matthew’s penchant for having
    Jesus fulfill Hebrew prophecies, no matter how obscure.


    WHAT DID JOSEPH DO?


    All four Gospels say that Joseph went to Pilate to ask for Jesus’
    body. The Synoptic Gospels say that Joseph wrapped Jesus’ body in a
    linen shroud and placed his body in a tomb, which is variously
    described as “a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock” (Mark
    15:46), “his (Joseph’s) own new tomb, which had been hewn in the
    rock” (Matthew 27:60), and “a rock-hewn tomb, where no one had ever
    yet been laid.” Just as Matthew is the only Gospel to describe Joseph
    as “rich,” it is also the only Gospel to say that the tomb belonged to
    Joseph (although one may assume that such an understanding lies behind
    Mark’s and Luke’s accounts as well, unless we imagine that Joseph
    merely usurped the first open tomb he found). None of the Synoptics
    says that Joseph did anything beyond wrapping Jesus’ body in the
    shroud before closing the tomb, but they do say that at least two
    women witnessed where and how Jesus was buried, precipitating Mark’s
    and Luke’s following comments about their first preparing and then on
    Sunday morning bringing spices with which to anoint Jesus’ body,
    implying that Joseph had not had time to do the job properly before
    the beginning of the Sabbath at sundown on Friday.


    John, however, paints a somewhat different picture. As in the
    Synoptics, here Joseph takes away Jesus’ body for burial, but unlike
    the Synoptics John adds that Nicodemus assisted him by “bringing a
    mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds weight” (19:39).
    John goes on to say that the two of them wrapped Jesus’ body “in the
    linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews” (v.
    40). This presents a problem for those who would “smoosh” the four
    Gospel accounts into one great big “mega-Gospel” story. If, as John
    says, Joseph and Nicodemus prepared Jesus’ body with about a hundred
    pounds of “spices” wrapped in a linen burial cloth and if, as the
    Synoptics say, at least two women witnessed Jesus’ burial, then why do
    Mark and Luke say that the women then went to prepare spices with
    which to anoint Jesus’ body for burial and that they then returned
    Sunday morning to do just that? According to John, the necessary
    anointing for burial had already been done “as is the burial custom of
    the Jews.” Significantly, John’s Gospel follows this by saying not
    that “women” came to the tomb on Sunday morning but only that one
    woman, Mary Magdalene, came to the tomb with no mention of her
    intending to anoint Jesus’ body. So, was Jesus’ body properly
    prepared for burial on Friday afternoon (as in John) or not (as in the
    Synoptics)? And if (as in the Synoptics but not in John) the women
    were watching where and how Jesus was buried, how would they not have
    known that Joseph and Nicodemus had done for Jesus’ body what was in
    accordance with “the burial custom of the Jews”? As has been
    mentioned in previous weeks, we are not dealing with history here but
    theology. We cannot try to “smoosh” the Gospel stories together but
    then ignore the very real inconsistencies and outright contradictions
    that result from such “smooshing.”


    WHEN DID MARY MAGDALENE AND/OR THE OTHER WOMEN VISIT THE TOMB?


    Mark 16:2 says that Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and
    Salome went to the tomb when the sun had risen and were discussing how
    they were going to get around the stone that had been rolled in front
    of the tomb, which upon arriving they found already rolled back.
    Matthew 28:1 says that Mary Magdalene and “the other Mary” went to the
    tomb “toward dawn,” implying that the sun had not yet risen, but
    rather than telling us how the women debated the moving of the stone,
    Matthew has an angel do it for them as they watched. Luke 24:1 says
    that the women who had followed Jesus from Galilee and who had
    prepared spices and ointments on Friday afternoon (apparently they
    hadn’t paid attention to Joseph’s and Nicodemus’ own burial anointing
    that day (wait, that’s only in John)) came to the tomb “at early
    dawn,” suggesting that the sun was just rising, and found the stone
    already rolled away from the tomb. John 20:1 says that Mary Magdalene
    came by herself to the tomb “while it was still dark” and, as in Luke,
    found the stone already removed. Again, if we try to “smoosh” the
    Gospel accounts into one big story, we must ask how and when the stone
    was removed, by unidentified forces before the women arrived or by an
    angel as they watched? Also, if (as in John) Mary Magdalene had come
    to the tomb by herself before dawn and saw the stone already removed,
    why would she then return shortly afterward (as in the Synoptics) and
    “play dumb” with the other women about the stone’s already having been
    removed? For that matter, why (as in Matthew) would an angel have to
    roll back the stone as the women watched if (as in the other Gospels)
    the stone had already been removed before the women’s arrival? Again,
    we are dealing with theology, not history, here. Each Gospel writer
    is telling his own story; they are not each providing details that the
    others have “left out” and which we are to combine together into one
    great big story so as to tell “what really happened.” Such attempts
    fall flat in the face of the very real logical, temporal and literary
    inconsistencies that result. Read each Gospel on its own terms, not
    in terms of the other Gospels, except when looking to see how Matthew
    and then Luke each adapted and altered Mark’s Gospel for their own
    ends and then how John adapted and altered the Synoptic tradition for
    his own purposes.


    WHO OR WHAT GREETED THE WOMEN AT THE TOMB?


    Mark 16:5 – “…a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a
    white robe…” inside the tomb.


    Matthew 28:2-3 – “…an angel of the Lord… his appearance was like
    lightning, and his raiment white as snow…” sitting on the stone
    outside the tomb.


    Luke 24:4 – “…two men… in dazzling apparel…” inside the tomb.


    John 20:1 – no one at first; upon returning in 20:12, Mary Magdalene
    sees “two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain,
    one at the head and one at the feet.”


    Mark’s “young man in white” (a literary allusion to the young man who
    had run away naked at Jesus’ arrest in 15:541-52?) has morphed in
    Matthew into “an angel of the Lord” and in Luke to “two men in
    dazzling apparel” (significantly, Luke here doesn’t call them
    “angels,” although later in 24:23 he does refer to them as such). As
    mentioned above, John has Mary make two trips to the tomb, with Peter
    and the “beloved disciple” making a trip in between Mary’s, with no
    one else, angelic or otherwise, appearing in or around the tomb until
    the third “look-see” into the tomb. We should not think that Mark’s
    “young man” was really an angel (wouldn’t he have said so?) or that
    Matthew’s one angel was really two as in Luke and John but that
    Matthew only bothered to mention one.


    WHAT HAPPENED AFTERWARD?


    According to Mark 16:8, the women ran off terrified without saying
    anything to anyone, The End, with no resurrection appearances of Jesus
    reported at all. Please note: IGNORE anything after verse 8; these
    additional verses were added later by someone who felt that Mark’s
    Gospel was “incomplete” because it lacked such accounts of
    resurrection appearances. That Mark’s Gospel actually did end at
    verse 8 is indicated by Matthew’s and Luke’s dovetailing away from one
    another at this point in their post-resurrection stories, because if
    they had had a copy of Mark before them that extended beyond 16:8 then
    their narratives would have continued together once the women left the
    tomb. Instead, they fly off in rather different directions.


    Jesus Scourged and Mocked - Mark 15:15b-20a; Matthew 27:26b-31a; Luke
    23:25b; John 19:1-16


    As is usual for them, Mark and Matthew present similar, almost
    identical depictions of Jesus’ being scourged and mocked by the Roman
    soldiers. Both Gospels affirm Jesus’ scourging without going into the
    (literally) gory details and then his being delivered to the soldiers
    to be crucified. In both Mark and Matthew, Jesus is then led into the
    praetorium and the entire battalion is called together. Mark then
    states that the soldiers clothed Jesus in a purple robe and put a
    crown of thorns on his head; Matthew inserts the additional details
    that the soldiers first stripped Jesus before putting a scarlet (red)
    robe on him and that they put a reed in his right hand. Both Gospels
    then state that the soldiers mockingly acclaimed Jesus as “King of the
    Jews” and spat upon him and struck him on the head with the reed.
    Mark then relates a detail that Matthew omits: the soldiers’ kneeling
    down in mock homage to Jesus. Perhaps Matthew didn’t want to even
    suggest that the soldiers recognized Jesus’ role or mission; whatever
    the reason, Matthew left this out of his Gospel. Both Gospels then
    finish this part of the story by having the soldiers remove the cloak
    and dress Jesus in his own clothes.


    Significantly, Luke says absolutely nothing about Jesus being scourged
    or mocked by the Roman soldiers. Both Mark 15:15b and Matthew 27:26b
    depict Jesus’ flogging as the first step of his sentence of
    crucifixion, but Luke 23:16 and 23:22 depict Pilate as offering to
    have Jesus flogged instead of crucifying him; in fact, Luke 23:25b
    says that, after releasing Barabbas, Pilate then “delivered up” Jesus
    “to their will,” i.e., to the will of the Jewish authorities who were
    calling for Jesus’ death, without first flogging him. While it is
    established that only the Romans could carry out capital punishment,
    Luke does not explicitly say that it was the Romans who crucified
    Jesus. Perhaps he wanted to insinuate that the Jewish authorities
    themselves did. But why would he even want to hint at such a thing?


    By the time Luke wrote his Gospel and the book of Acts (the late first
    century), Gentile Christianity even in Judea had moved well beyond its
    Jewish origins into the pagan Greco-Roman world. The main social
    issue of Luke’s communities was no longer how they would relate to the
    Jewish synagogue but rather to the Roman Empire. The whole point of
    Luke/Acts is that Christianity was not a threat to Roman society or
    rule, and so what we read in Luke and Acts is geared toward that
    understanding. Therefore, Luke has a vested interest in minimizing
    the Romans’ role in crucifying Jesus to the point of overstating the
    role of the Jewish authorities, even at the expense of omitting
    “actual history.” In light of this intent, it is not surprising that
    Luke, who had Mark in front of him, completely omits all references to
    Jesus being scourged at Pilate’s command and then mocked by his
    soldiers. His overriding emphasis is upon Christianity’s
    compatibility with Roman rule, which he hoped would lessen the
    likelihood of the empire opposing the churches as a political threat.
    It’s not that Luke didn’t know about Jesus’ being scourged and mocked
    and thus left it out; he deliberately omitted it because it
    potentially undermined his purpose. (In addition to this concern,
    there is another potential reason for this omission on which we will
    touch momentarily.)


    When we turn to John we find the story expanded significantly. As do
    Mark and Matthew, John also reports Jesus’ scourging and being mocked
    by the soldiers with many of the same details (crown of thorns, purple
    robe, mocking acclamation and beating), but then, rather than having
    Jesus led off to crucifixion, he instead has Jesus brought back before
    Pilate, who again presents Jesus before the Jews and proclaims him
    innocent. Upon seeing Jesus, the Jews call for his crucifixion, after
    which Pilate tells them to crucify him themselves, which sounds like
    an attempt on John’s part to minimize Roman responsibility for Jesus’
    death. The Jews respond that their law requires Jesus to die for
    blasphemy for having claimed to be the Son of God. At this, John
    inserts the unlikely detail that Pilate has become afraid and has him
    ask Jesus where he is from, to which Jesus provides no answer. When
    Pilate reasserts his power either to free or crucify him, Jesus
    replies that Pilate’s power is only a divine bequest and that those
    who delivered him to be crucified bear the greater guilt. Pilate,
    apparently still afraid, tries to release Jesus, but the Jews strike
    his Achilles’ heel by reminding him of Jesus’ claim to be a king and
    the political ramifications of such a claim. So Pilate brings Jesus
    out to the Stone Pavement, at which point John states that it is the
    day of the preparation of the Passover (as opposed to the day of
    Passover itself, which we touched upon during our first class) and
    that the time is around noon (which we will touch upon next week).
    There he presents Jesus to the Jews as their king; they, however, call
    again for his crucifixion and affirm that their only king is Caesar, a
    rather unlikely statement on the Jews’ part. Then Pilate hands Jesus
    over to them (the Jews) to be crucified.


    John’s depiction is geared to emphasize the Jews’ guilt, Pilate’s
    relative blamelessness and Jesus’ utter serenity and dignity through
    all of this. We must remember that we are not here dealing with
    “history” but theology in the context of polemic against the Jewish
    authorities who by John’s day have rejected Jesus and are kicking
    Christians out of their synagogues. Hence in John the Jews claim that
    they have no king but Caesar, a theologically impossible thing for any
    self-respecting Jew to say. Pilate is presented as being fair-minded
    regarding Jesus and even afraid of him, which is utterly unlike the
    Pilate of history. And it is unlikely (although not impossible) that
    the historical Jesus, having endured a Roman scourging, would have
    been able to carry on any kind of conversation with Pilate or anyone
    (more on this in the following section and in next week’s notes).
    John’s depiction, as indeed are those of Mark, Matthew and Luke, is
    based upon his theology and his understanding of what Jesus’ suffering
    and death ultimately mean. Neither he nor the Synoptic authors are
    concerned with “history” for history’s sake.


    The Road to Golgotha – Mark 15:20b-23; Matthew 27:31b-34; Luke
    23:26-33b; John 19:17


    Once again, Mark and Matthew are almost in lockstep with one another
    here. They both report that the Roman guards lead Jesus off to
    crucifixion, but along the way they compel a certain Simon of Cyrene
    (whom Mark identifies as “the father of Alexander and Rufus”) to carry
    Jesus’ cross for him. (Some commentators see Simon of Cyrene as
    effectively replacing Simon Peter, who has proven himself unable to
    “take up his cross” by denying Jesus instead of himself.) Once they
    all reach Golgotha (“place of a skull”) the guards offer Jesus wine
    mixed with either myrrh (Mark) or gall (Matthew), which Jesus refuses
    to drink.


    Adam Hamilton suggests that the “Rufus” of Mark 15:21 is the same
    “Rufus” to whom Paul refers in Romans 16:13 and that Rufus had become
    “a leader in the church.” But this idea is based upon the unreliable
    tradition of Papias as reported by Eusebius (two centuries after
    Papias) that Mark wrote his Gospel under Peter’s instruction. This,
    coupled with the tradition that Peter was the first pope of the church
    at Rome, leads to the identification of Paul’s Rufus at Rome with
    Mark’s Rufus. However, Eusebius is quite aware that Papias is an
    unreliable source, and indeed where Papias can be checked against
    known historical data he constantly drops the ball. Most scholars,
    citing internal literary evidence in the Gospel itself, see Mark as
    originating in a Galilean, not a Roman, environment, and so Mark’s
    Rufus and Paul’s Rufus at most share a common name but are not likely
    to be the same individual.


    Luke follows Mark in reporting that Simon of Cyrene was pressed into
    carrying Jesus’ cross and that they finally came to a place called
    “The Skull,” although Luke reports nothing about Jesus being offered
    any wine. Instead, between Simon’s taking up Jesus’ cross and the
    group’s arrival at the place of crucifixion, Luke inserts a story that
    is unique to his Gospel. Luke depicts Jesus as encountering and
    engaging in conversation with women who are wailing and lamenting for
    him. Addressing them as “daughters of Jerusalem,” Jesus admonishes
    them not to weep for him but for themselves and their children for all
    the calamity that is to come upon Jerusalem. He ends his words by
    asking, “For if they do this when the wood is green, what will happen
    when it is dry?” a proverb perhaps suggesting that if such an
    injustice is happening to the innocent Jesus, what fate must await
    guilty Jerusalem? Luke ends this aside by reporting that two
    criminals also accompanied Jesus to the place of crucifixion, a detail
    the other Gospels reveal after Jesus is crucified.


    Earlier it was mentioned regarding John’s Gospel that it was unlikely
    that the historical Jesus could have engaged in conversation with
    Pilate after having been scourged. How then in Luke’s Gospel can he
    engage in such conversation with the women on the road? Simple: as
    was pointed out above, in Luke’s Gospel Jesus is never scourged.
    Aside from the beating that he receives before his trial before the
    Sanhedrin, in Luke the only other physical punishment that Jesus
    endures is the crucifixion itself. As we will see, the un-flogged
    Jesus of Luke is in full command of his faculties and capable of
    having conversations even while he is being crucified, whereas in Mark
    and Matthew the scourged Jesus is utterly silent from the time of his
    appearance before Pilate until just before he dies on the cross. We
    must not ignore these differences between the Gospels if we wish to
    understand each writer’s intent in telling his story as he does.


    John’s Gospel mentions nothing of Simon of Cyrene and indeed
    explicitly says, “…[C]arrying the cross by himself, [Jesus] went out
    to what is called The Place of the Skull.” John is not merely
    “leaving out” what the other Gospel writers have already mentioned,
    nor is he implying that Jesus started out carrying his cross and then,
    when he had tired, Simon was forced to carry it the rest of the way
    (for that matter, neither Mark, Matthew nor Luke say that Simon was
    forced to carry the cross because Jesus had become “tired”). Just as
    earlier in John Jesus had known no agony in the garden, had identified
    himself to the arresting mob, had confidently engaged in debate both
    with the Jewish officials and with Pilate, had endured mocking and
    scourging and then had still conversed with Pilate in spite of his
    wounds, here John’s Jesus carries his own cross. The Word Become
    Flesh is serenely and supremely in control of his own destiny. There
    is no place for a Simon or for anyone else.


    THE CRUCIFIXION IN THE GOSPELS


    While there are four Gospels in the New Testament, the Gospels of Mark
    and Matthew are so very similar in their depictions of the crucifixion
    that they may be regarded as a single tradition. Therefore I will be
    referring to the threefold Gospel traditions of M/M, Luke and John in
    these notes.


    When did the crucifixion happen?


    Mark 15:25 says that Jesus was crucified at 9:00 in the morning.
    Neither Matthew nor Luke specify a time, but given their mutual
    dependence upon Mark for the rest of their depictions of the
    crucifixion, which all three say took place on the Day of Passover,
    they would have had that time of day in mind. John 19:14, by way of
    contrast, depicts Jesus’ crucifixion as happening at around noon on
    the day before Passover.


    Who mocked Jesus while he hung on the cross?


    According to M/M, everyone mocked him: the passers-by, the chief
    priests, the scribes (Matthew adds the elders), and the two robbers
    crucified with him. In M/M, Jesus is completely alone on the cross,
    surrounded only by mockers. Luke says that the rulers, the soldiers
    and only one of the robbers mocked him; while Luke mentions that
    “people” were also present, he does not depict them as mocking Jesus.
    John, by contrast, depicts no one as mocking Jesus on the cross.
    Instead, John depicts only Jesus’ mother and other supportive women,
    along with the “beloved disciple,” as being near him; by contrast, M/M
    and Luke say that the women and Jesus’ acquaintances were only
    watching from far off.


    What happened at noon?


    According to M/M and Luke, darkness came upon the land for three
    hours; John, by contrast, mentions nothing about darkness at all
    (remember, in John Jesus isn’t even crucified until noon). This
    darkness is not to be interpreted as a solar eclipse (wherein totality
    only lasts for a few minutes at most, not three hours) but rather as
    an apocalyptic flourish on Mark’s part, which Matthew and Luke have
    picked up. John, whose Gospel is intentionally non-apocalyptic, omits
    this detail.


    When did Jesus die?


    M/M and Luke say that Jesus died at three o’clock; John specifies no
    time of death but implies that it happened before sundown (the
    beginning of the Sabbath).


    When did the veil of the temple tear in two?


    According to M/M, who hold to an atonement view of Jesus’ death, the
    veil was torn after Jesus died, implying that Jesus’ death opened up
    the way to God. Luke, who had Mark in front of him, pointedly changes
    the order to have the veil rend before Jesus dies, while he is still
    alive. The Gentile Luke, who doesn’t hold to a Jewish idea of
    atonement, sees the way to God as being opened not by Jesus’ death but
    by his complete obedience to the will of God. In Mark 10:45 and
    Matthew 20:28, Jesus is depicted as saying, “The Son of Man came not
    to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many,”
    the defining statement of atonement theology in these two Gospels. In
    the parallel passage in Luke 22:27, Jesus merely says, “I am among you
    as one who serves,” without saying a word about “giving his life a
    ransom for many.” Luke, who had Mark in front of him, left out this
    “atonement” statement because that wasn’t his theology, which is also
    why he reordered Mark’s tearing of the veil to have it happen before
    Jesus died.


    What else happened when Jesus died?


    According to Matthew (and only according to Matthew), there was an
    earthquake, the splitting of rocks and the resurrection of “many”
    saints who, after Jesus’ resurrection, went into Jerusalem and
    “appeared to many.” This unique Matthean touch should be seen not as
    “history” but as theology, and apocalyptic theology at that. If such
    an earth-shattering event as this had actually happened, one wonders
    why no other Gospel or New Testament document mentions it. One also
    wonders what the resurrected saints were doing between Friday
    afternoon and Sunday morning… were they just “hanging around the
    tombs”?


    How did the centurion respond to Jesus’ death?


    According to Mark, Jesus’ death led the centurion to declare, “Truly
    this man was the Son of God!” According to Matthew, the earthquake,
    the resurrection of the saints and (presumably) Jesus’ death led the
    centurion to conclude the same thing as in Mark. For both of these
    Gospels, Jesus’ (atoning) death confirms his divinity. In Luke,
    however, the (pre-death) rending of the temple veil followed by Jesus’
    death leads the centurion to exclaim, “Certainly this man was
    innocent!” Being declared “divine” and being declared “innocent” are
    two very different things. Luke’s theology is not that of Mark or
    Matthew; Jesus’ death in Luke does not mean the same thing that it
    means in Mark and Matthew.


    The “Seven Sayings” from the Cross


    It is important to understand that the individual Gospels are not
    “eyewitness” accounts that are each providing different details about
    Jesus’ crucifixion, details which the reader is supposed to combine
    into one big mega-Gospel. Each Gospel tradition is unique unto
    itself, and we must examine them in terms of their uniqueness to avoid
    projecting one onto the other, since in fact they were never written
    or intended to be read that way in the first place. As I mentioned
    earlier, Matthew follows Mark so closely that their two Gospels
    together may be regarding as a single tradition next to those of Luke
    and John. It is out of these three traditions that the uber-tradition
    of the “Seven Sayings” has developed.


    Mark and Matthew are quite clear that, once Jesus replies “You say
    so,” to Pilate’s asking him if he is the King of the Jews, he is
    utterly silent until just before he dies, when in these Gospels he
    cries out, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” This single
    “saying” of M/M is unique to them; it is not a part of either Luke’s
    or John’s tradition. The “My God” saying here reflects the image of
    the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 who “did not open his mouth” and
    whose life was “an offering for sin,” which fits the atonement
    theology of M/M. It is not that M/M “chose not to include” the
    “other” sayings; for them, this was the only saying.


    Things become more complicated in Luke. Adam Hamilton waxes eloquent
    about Jesus’ words in 23:34a, “Father, forgive them, for they do not
    know what they are doing,” as “the most magnificent and majestic words
    ever uttered by a dying man.” It certainly sounds like something
    Jesus would say… or would have said… if he had said it.
    Unfortunately, this saying is not in the oldest manuscripts of the
    Gospel of Luke. In these oldest manuscripts, the story jumps from
    23:33 (the crucifixion of Jesus and the two criminals) right to 23:34b
    (the casting of lots for his clothes). Textually speaking, it is far
    more likely that such a saying was inserted by a later copyist than
    that the saying was original to the text but was removed by a later
    copyist (after all, who would deliberately remove one of Jesus’ last
    sayings?). Jesus may very well have said these words, but they are
    not original to Luke… which means that in terms of the oldest
    manuscript evidence the “seven sayings” in the Gospels are actually
    only six.


    The “next” of Luke’s sayings of Jesus from the cross are, “Truly, I
    say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise,” spoken to the
    “repentant” robber next to Jesus. However, Luke’s source, Mark,
    explicitly says that both robbers reviled Jesus, not that one did
    while the other repented. Luke has altered Mark’s story to emphasize
    his own theology of God’s free grace and forgiveness to all, which
    means, among other things, that Luke’s Jesus is not the “suffering
    servant” of Isaiah who “did not open his mouth,” as he is in Mark and
    Matthew.


    Luke’s final saying of Jesus, “Father, into your hands I commend my
    spirit,” is not to be understood as having been spoken by Jesus in
    addition to Mark’s “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” but
    rather as Luke’s replacement of the Markan “cry of dereliction” with a
    saying more amenable to Luke’s theology. Remember, as I pointed out
    last week, in Luke’s Gospel Jesus is not scourged before his
    crucifixion; he is led straight out to crucifixion without being
    flogged first. In Luke’s Gospel Jesus has not been tortured as much
    as in Mark and Matthew (there is no Isaianic “by his stripes we are
    healed” theology in the Gentile Luke’s Gospel), and so he is depicted
    by Luke as being in control of his faculties even while on the cross,
    able to carry on a conversation with the repentant thief above. For
    that matter, as I pointed out in the notes for week two, in Luke Jesus
    also suffers no “agony in the garden”; unlike in Mark or Matthew,
    Jesus in Luke is confident until death of God’s presence and of his
    own innocence. Hence the Lucan Jesus couldn’t have said, “My God, my
    God, why have you forsaken me?” any more than the Markan and Matthean
    Jesus could have said, “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.”
    This is why we must be careful not to project the Jesus of one Gospel
    onto any other Gospel. If we do, we utterly miss each Gospel writer’s
    unique understanding of Jesus.


    Just as the crucified Jesus of Mark and Matthew is not the crucified
    Jesus of Luke, the crucified Jesus of John is not the crucified Jesus
    of the Synoptics. John’s “Woman, behold your son!... Behold, your
    mother!” which Jesus is depicted as saying to his mother and to the
    “beloved disciple” serves to cement the familial relationship between
    Jesus and his “beloved disciple” (and to establish the authority of
    the “beloved disciple” as the true authentic witness to Jesus): here,
    the disciple is to take Jesus’ place with Jesus’ mother. This is not
    something that the Synoptic Jesus is depicted as saying or could have
    said to his mother or to any disciple, since in the Synoptics the
    women and Jesus’ acquaintances are depicted as watching only from far
    off, not as being close enough for Jesus to speak directly to them
    (and, given the nature of crucifixion, we should not imagine that
    Jesus “yelled” these words to them from a distance). In addition, if
    we insist upon combining the Gospels together and reading this as four-
    fold “history” and assume that the “beloved disciple” is John the son
    of Zebedee, we must remember that Matthew says that the mother of the
    sons of Zebedee was standing at a distance watching with the other
    women. Are we to understand that Jesus “stole” John from John’s own
    mother and “gave” him to Jesus’ own mother? We’re not reading
    “history” here.


    The next of John’s sayings, “I thirst,” while certainly reasonable on
    the lips of a victim of crucifixion, serve here to provide an ironic
    counterpoint in terms of John’s theology: Jesus, the “living water” of
    John’s Gospel, now himself thirsts at the brink of death. No other
    Gospel depicts Jesus as the “living water,” and no other Gospel
    depicts him as saying these words. They serve a theological, not a
    historical, purpose here.


    The last of John’s words of Jesus, “It is finished,” reflect Jesus’
    words earlier in John 17:4 regarding the work which God has sent him
    to “accomplish.” Again, these words serve a theological purpose in
    John’s Gospel and reflect a rather different understanding of the
    crucified Jesus than we find in the Synoptics.


    As Adam Hamilton said, “The last words of any man or woman carry
    special weight.” So much more the last words of Jesus. Since the
    death of Jesus is the climax of each Gospel (the resurrection is
    treated almost as an epilogue), each Gospel writer is careful to
    present Jesus’ last words is such a way as to sum up the message of
    his Gospel. These “seven sayings” of Jesus are not to be read as “the
    seven last things that Jesus said before he died as they are
    cumulatively reported by four eyewitnesses” (because the Gospel
    writers weren’t eyewitnesses in the first place) but rather as unique
    expressions of each Gospel writer’s theology. We must not project
    Luke’s “sayings” onto Mark, Matthew or John; we must not project
    Mark’s and Matthew’s “saying” onto Luke or John; we must not project
    John’s “sayings” onto Mark, Matthew or Luke. No one Gospel presents
    Jesus as saying all “seven” of these sayings, and indeed the Jesus of
    Matthew or Mark couldn’t have said what Luke or John say he said.
    Remember, in these stories we are not reading the unvarnished,
    unadulterated Jesus. We are reading Jesus through the filters of
    Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, and each filter is unique. The
    variations in their stories, the reordering of events and the
    “retiming” of the day on which Jesus died in these four Gospels reveal
    that what we are reading is not history but theology… theology that is
    unique to each of the Gospels. Let each Gospel stand on its own.
    If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.

    Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm

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    Default Re: jesus in genesis?

    The text of the Shema says "The Lord is One"

    The text does not say "The Lord is One group"

    the word 'One' is a noun, not an adjective describing a plural noun
    If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.

    Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm

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    Default Re: jesus in genesis?

    Books of acts

    One might just as well ask why Acts would use the past tense to describe the specific period of time that Paul spent in his rented house in Rome if it was written at a time when Paul was still there. Why doesn't Acts 28:30 read "And Paul remained there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him" if it was written in 62 A.D.? The author must have been writing at a later time when he knew that Paul was no longer at that house even if he doesn't tell us where Paul went from there.

    The reason I point that out—if the fall of Jerusalem and the Jewish Wars did not fit within that purpose, why would we expect it to be included?

    jewish war no reason to mention it in acts , reasons:

    5) Because the work is written TO Gentile Christians, FOR Gentile Christians, ABOUT Gentile Christians. The Jewish War was not their concern. (Except, at best, as an apocalyptic event, but as pointed out, Luke is already provided apologia for the delayed parousia.)

    3) Why would Luke’s intended audience (Gentile Christians) care about the Jewish War, where Jews (not Christians) revolted for Jewish religious (not Christian religious) reasons as well as Jewish (not Christian) political reasons?


    Additionally, at the time Acts was written (around 100 CE), Nero was long dead. The focus of Christianity would be on what the present Emperor’s position would be, if at all. Reminding Domitian or Trajan that Nero once persecuted Christians would neither help nor harm the Christian cause.

    Since Mark “predicts” the fall of Jerusalem, and is undated—we consider it to be dated at or after 70 CE.

    I was responding to your claim that “even if Paul really believed, when he wrote the letter to the Romans, that Christians would be safe from harm by the Roman government if they did the right thing, there is absolutely no reason to think that the author of Acts believed that, especially if he was writing after 70 AD.” (emphasis added) I was showing you that there is a perfectly logical reason to think that the author of Acts might have constructed his narrative with that idea in mind even if he wasn’t as certain about it as he might have liked to have been, and even if circumstances had change since Paul wrote his letter to the Romans. That reason is that powerless groups have often treated their oppressors as if they were benefactors for a variety of pragmatic reasons, e.g., the desire to avoid harsher treatment, the hope of winning acceptance, and the futility of resistance.


    Standing alone, the fact that a book doesn’t mention an important event doesn’t prove that it was written before the event occurred. World War I was a very important event, but it isn’t mentioned in Gone with the Wind. That doesn’t give us any reason to doubt that Gone with the Wind was written after World War I, however, because Gone with the Wind is a story about the Civil War and we wouldn’t expect it to mention World War I.

    luke makes the romans look good and the jews evil

    To clarify, I think there would be multiple reasons why Luke would not mention the Neronian persecution. (Curious 1 Clement doesn’t mention it, despite listing “recent” martyrs. Also curious we know more about it from non-Christian sources than Christian sources. If Nero was so “infamous” for it, Christians other than Luke were quite quiet about it.)

    Certainly one reason would be Luke’s penchant to paint Romans more positive toward Christianity than Jews. I recommend anyone actually READ Acts and see how many times the author blames “the Jews, the Jews, the Jews” whereas the Roman-established authorities are demonstrated as receptive to what the Christians were saying.

    Anette Acker mentioned Paul and Silas put in jail by Roman-established authorities (they were.) She failed to mention who released them—the same authorities! Also that she had to pick out a singular story from the numerous ones regarding Jews harassing Paul.

    Whether Luke’s motivation was to specifically avoid persecution…I don’t know. (For various reasons, I doubt it.) Much like Josephus painted his Flavian patrons in a positive light, it would certainly conform to the evidence Luke was painting Romans in a positive light in deference to his Patron—Theophilus. (The explanation for why Theophilus is called “Most excellent” in Luke, but the honorific is dropped as unnecessary in Acts.)

    Luke avoided claiming the Romans persecuted Christians because he wanted Romans to look good—not to avoid possible future persecution.
    .
    I think my point was mostly that there would be nothing odd about a Christian writing positive things about the Romans even if persecution was an imminent threat or had recently occurred. That's the kind of thing that powerless and oppressed peoples have been forced to do to survive throughout history.

    However, the persecution of Christians was on the whole fairly sporadic and scattered. I don't see anything to suggest that Luke was writing for a community where official persecution was prevalent so I wouldn't guess that it played a big part in his thinking either.


    I think the distinction you may be missing is the one between a theme of a story and the theme of a story. A theme of Gone with the Wind is the cruel effect of war on civilians but that does not provide any reason for mentioning World War I because the theme of the story is the response of a particular southern civilian woman to hardship during the Civil War.

    In Luke-Acts, the overall purpose of the story is to show how a Jewish Messiah became the savior of the gentiles. A theme within that story (I believe Dagoods used the phrase “underlying theme” and you used the phrase "a recurring theme") is “Jews Bad; Romans Good. Christianity on Roman’s side.” However just as Gone with the Wind doesn’t use wars later than the Civil War (even though the author knows about them) to demonstrate the effect of war on civilians, Luke-Acts doesn’t demonstrate the badness of the Jews with the later Roman-Jewish war (even though he knows about it). The author had already completed his overall purpose of showing how a Jewish Messiah became the gospel of salvation to the gentiles.

    “Jews Bad; Romans Good. Christianity on Roman’s side” is a theme of Acts, but it is not the only theme of Acts or the predominant theme of Acts. It is a subsidiary theme. Even if the Roman-Jewish war might have supported this theme, it would be inconsistent with many elements of the story: (1) the event occurred eight years after the logical ending point of the story; (2) the event occurred more than 1300 miles away from the geographical point at which the story ended; (3) the event did not involve any of the characters that the story had been following. The fact that the event might support one particular subsidiary theme in the story wouldn’t warrant its inclusion.

    Paul

    We don’t know how Paul died. We don’t know when. How can we say the author of Acts would certainly include Paul’s death, if we don’t even know how and when he died? Would the author have included it if Paul died by shipwreck? By disease? By a knife fight in an alley? By being martyred? By other Christians?

    The outcome of Paul’s trial is equally problematic. Did he win? Did he lose? Did it even happen? Again, if Paul died from disease prior to the trial, this makes perfect sense why it wasn’t listed. Or if he lost. We simply don’t know, and to speculate what happened adds silence upon silence, removing all but a feather’s weight of credibility.

    (Sometimes people claim Luke wrote so much about the trial leading up to the ending and he wouldn’t have mentioned it at all if Paul lost. Not true—if Paul lost, that is all the MORE reason to give the long-winded substantiation. In my practice, at times, I ask the question, “Have you been convicted of a felony?” I receive two answers:

    1) “No.”
    2) “Let me tell you what happened….”

    No one says outright, “Yes, I was convicted”—first they want to give an explanation. Like Luke does for Paul.)
    The Jewish Revolt has no bearing on the missionary work, or the doctrinal continuity, and therefore would have no need to be included. The typical reason listed would be to paint the Jews in a bad light under the first purpose listed.

    However, we have to look at Acts itself. It discusses Jews vs Christians as compared to Romans vs. Christians, painting the Romans in a positive, receptive light, and the Jews as the belligerent, confrontational type. The entire book deals with Christians interacting with others.

    The Jewish revolt had to do with internal Jewish problems (conservative v more modernistic) and Jews vs. Romans. The Revolt had NOTHING to do with Christianity.

    I have always been curious, to the people who claim Acts would have mentioned the Jewish Wars if it was written in 90 CE.

    Where?

    Where would Acts include the Revolt, and how would it work its way into the passage? The book ends in approximately 62 CE—is the apologist claiming the author would have extended the book on to include the events of 70 CE? Why?—there were no Christians involved! The recipients would state, “That is nice and all, but what does it have to do with us?” Absolutely nothing.

    Is the apologist stating the authors would have included it a prophetic statement? Luke already did in his first book, copying Mark 13.

    when was acts written

    7. Luke stresses twice Barabbas was an insurrection; Mark only states it once.

    This is (surprising at 7) probably the strongest argument. Luke appears to emphasize the Jews were willing to support insurrection rather than let the (innocent) Jesus go free. Yet again, Luke consistently paints the Jews unfavorably. Why isn’t this just another example of such?

    8. Luke is explicit about the charge against Jesus.

    Luke, in copying Mark and Matthew, deliberately “cleans up” any particular point he finds problematic. For example, realizing the Sanhedrin would never meet at night (specifically on Passover!), he “moves” the Sanhedrin hearing to the morning. (Luke 22:66) Not surprising, if Luke thought the accusation of “He calls himself the King of the Jews” was insufficient to add the accusation of insurrection and not paying taxes. Luke then lapses back to Markan language.

    9: Pilate’s language.

    Same answer as above.

    10. Luke lists a trial before Herod as well.

    Yeah. Again, Luke wants not only the Judean Religious leaders held accountable—he wants to make sure the Galilean political government is as well, so he makes up this story about Herod. No reason to find this historical.


    1a. Why would Gentile Christians be concerned about when Jesus was establishing his kingdom?

    This one is a bit frustrating. I have answered this so many times; I am baffled how it could possibly still be a question.

    Because the parousia (return of Christ) was not happening as fast as Christians thought it would. They were starting to question it. So Luke creates (this account in Acts 1 is completely made up, of course) a solution by indicating Jesus was not precise to his coming. That they may have to wait another 100 years. (or 2000 as it turns out. And 10,000 more until somebody cottons on.)

    2a. Luke says “The kingdom of God is within you” so the Romans realized they had nothing to fear from Christians.

    Rome didn’t give a rat’s patooey about what a particular sect, religion, group or society claimed--it cared about results. Claiming some internal gnosis was part and parcel of Gnosticism--yet that didn’t mean Rome would say, “Oh, we won’t bother the Gnostics, because they are ‘internal.’’ Give me a break.

    3a. The Roman Centurion says “This man was innocent.”

    First, Luke completely misses Mark’s irony and biffs the statement. Second, as pointed out above, Luke is highlighting the guilt of the Jews, contrasting the innocence of the Roman officials involved. The poor executioner was only doing his job.

    4a. The Romans would appreciate how the criminal on the cross said he would meet Jesus in his Kingdom, and since they were dying, the Romans would have seen the kingdom was not of this world.

    This is what I mean by applying a 21st Century mindset to 1st Century culture. Do you really think the Romans were this precise in their theological/legal machinations to make such fine distinctions? Rome cared about RESULTS. Not doctrinal niceties. If you were causing trouble, they charged you, tortured you and executed you. They didn’t sit around with cigars, glasses of brandy, stroking their beards with, “I say, old chap. I think this criminal here must indicate the kingdom is in the after-life, so these insurrections at the heart of every riot should be let free with a ‘hip, hip’ and a ‘cherrie-o.’”


    http://sandwichesforsale.blogspot.co...=1311018731203
    If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.

    Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm

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    Default Re: jesus in genesis?

    are the waste products of the prophet (pbuh) holy and clean for use?



    If the Prophet's (S) urine was considered clean from a religios perspective, then why did the Prophet (S) sit down while urinating, per all the scholars? And when he (S) did stand up, the scholar usually argue that the reason he did so is because he was urinating in an area where it would not fall... And why would he need to perform wudhu after urination?

    Scholars may have determined the lack of integrity of a particular narrator based upon the content or matn of the hadith itself. A liar is often known by how he 'narrates' and scholars would assert a particular narrator as unreliable based upon the fact that he narrated certain accounts differently each time. It is 'superifical', to argue that the integrity of a narrator is to be separated from the issue of matn. No matter which way one tries to spin it, hadith are called 'shadh' for a reason and that reason often lies in questioning the very authenticity of the narration.

    And one more point:

    According to certain accounts, Aisha (R) was accused of adultery. Those involved in passing the rujmours were not just hypocrities, but Muslims like Hassan bin Thabit, meaning it 'qualified' as acceptable in hadith methodology as far as isnad is concerned. The Quran, stated equivocally, that instead of this news was passed from tongue to tongue, the Muslims should have declared it a fabrication from the very outset. Thee principle is just because something is mentioned in 'numbers', doesn't mean 'valid'. The content of the report is a huge factor in deteremining whether something is acceptable or not and the notion that because something is narrated by a group of people does not make it any stronger. In fact, sometimes scholars woul say the numercitiy of the report indicates it's falsehood. Even the NT records that rumors were passed off regarding Jesus during his own life.

    This is precisely why one shouldn't worship methodologies or think that methodology captures reality itself.


    Blood and waste products

    For example, some argue that the Prophet (S) told a Companion like Abduallah ibn Zubair, who did not even reach puberty, by the death of the Prophet (S) to throw away the water mixed with the blood that was used to wash the incision the Prophet (S) cupped with. If the 'blood' was blessed, than what was the need to release it through cupping anyways? Secondly, nobody collects the water that is used to wash a wound. The water falls to the ground, meaning the very idea of collecting it and throwing it away is absurd. Thrid, the Prophet (S) is stated to have washed the wound, meaning what si the need of washing if it was considered clean? Further, ibn Zubair (R) did not even reach puberty by the death of the Prophet (S), meaning if one were to accept this narration, it was merely an issue of a child doing something. Fourthly, the hadith of ibn Zubari is narrated differently. One ends with "Woe to the people because of you, and woe to you because of the people." It does not mention the blessing of the bllood and seems to be a 'criticism' of ibn Zubair (R) in one sense. In another narration, attributed to Salman AL Farsi, it ends with a statement of praise to ABdullah ibn Zubair and Salman al Farsi. The political implications are not to subtle to not be realized.

    Fifth, the same story, meaning the issue of cupping as well as throwing the blood away, is mentioned through different Companions that were much older. Sixth, other hadeeth don't even mention the 'blessings on drinking blood' as well:

    http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/81692

    1.

    Human beings, when they have not corrupted their inner nature, all have haya when they go to the bathroom. The Prophet (S) was not the only one going outside to answer the call of naature. That has little relevance to whether urine or waste has 'barakah' or not. Even you cused the term 'waste' and the earth was 'ashamed'. This leads me to point 2:

    2.

    In fact, I would question the 'haya' of a person that would set out to go look for the waste of the Prophet (S)?

    3.

    Even if one accepts the narrations, they were actions of a child, who had most likely not passed puberty yet, or an extreme incident, i.e. that of war. If it was not sunnah, than how does one speak of the 'Companions' as if it was a general practice. The "Companions" did not do such things.
    .....
    If the Prophet's urine was pure or had barakah (blessings) surely he wouldn't have to perform wudu. Using the hadith why would there be shame in holy excrement? If this happened and it was such a blessing then why didn't people/Companions (ra) do it more often? Why would the Prophet deprive the people of this blessing by going somewhere to relieve himself instead storing it? According to some interpretations the Qur'an specifically tells the Prophet to clean his clothes and avoid filth, is this only from external sources?

    Plenty of ahadith mention the Prophet cleaning himself and doing the normal things that anyone would do after natural bodily functions. Don't forget these are a result of what he put in his body...are we saying that when he consumed something it would transform into something blessed in his body and when it came out? Then why did he ever wash anything? What about ghusl? Shouldn't anything that he came in contact with have been pure?

    I can see this is on the path that other members of other religions have gone in deifying their sacred leaders...yet, even they haven't endorsed such a thing...

    "O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth."

    The reaction of the Prophet (S) in such hadeeth, if one accepts them, clearly reveal that they weren't standard practice. You don't say "spit it out" if it was being done normally. Other hadeeth mention the "Companions" without even identifying them. Not a single one of these hadeeth argue that any of the Companions the like of Abu Bakr, Umar, Ali or Uthman or any of the ten promised Paradise, or Aisha engaged in such activity. There is nothing normative in these hadith at all, meaning it truly is exaggeration in respect to religion.

    ANd further, my point is veneration does not include denying the humanity of the Prophet (S) either...

    It wasn't and as he noted the closest Companions (ra) did no such thing. In fact, people/Companions did a lot of things that they thought venerated the Prophet (pbuh) but he did not like. For example, when he had a ring and a bunch of people wore one to emulate him and he threw it away in disapproval.

    You even noted yourself that the Prophet asked the person to spit the blood out...the fact that he didn't obey makes the act wrong in of itself, not to mention that spitting it out was commanded. Thus the Prophet obviously did not see his blood as this barakah or he would have allowed. Rather, the person in his zeal did what he was not supposed to and exaggerated in his faith.

    Pagan gods names in noahs times

    http://forums.understanding-islam.co...242#post161242

    muslims worship muhammad?

    http://forums.understanding-islam.co...l=1#post161245

    Grave worship/preislamic pagan beliefs various ideas/

    http://forums.understanding-islam.co...l=1#post160558
    http://forums.understanding-islam.co...l=1#post160781
    http://forums.understanding-islam.co...l=1#post160803
    http://forums.understanding-islam.co...l=1#post160804
    If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.

    Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm

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    Default Re: jesus in genesis?

    did the qur'aan say that angels can have 100 percent human brain, flesh and soul ?



    http://forums.understanding-islam.co...f-6-9-required


    yhwh merciful , God of Islam warior god?

    http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/08/the...-just-once-ii/

    http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/08/the...e-just-once-i/
    If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.

    Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm

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    Default Re: jesus in genesis?

    I always wonderd how come acts didn't talked about Nero going on killing spree as well as Paul doing the same thing. And then there's that verse where paul tells his followers to listen to the goverment because God choose them to rule the people (Romans 13) and this is the same time Nero was in power.

    The artical has explained the reasons why pretty well.

    Edit:

    Not only has Paul destroyed the law and the prophets. he also was the one who hunted down the Christians who wanted to exceed the Pharisees by fulfilling the law where as the scribes and Pharisees (which Paul came from) were misleading them, making them fit for hell (as Jesus would say)

    The true followers of Jesus were the lost sheep of Israel but because they were following the law and not the law of man (whereas the Jews were adapting the worldy laws) they were hunted and killed by the hands of Nero and Paul. Makes perfect sence and this is why Paul started his own verson and told his followers to break the old law and follow the new law that he invented (plus the law of the goverment)
    Last edited by Moonlight; 12th July 2012 at 17:22.
    Evil Beware, We Have Waffles...

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    If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.

    Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm

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    Default Re: jesus in genesis?




    ehrman

    One of his most cited set of numbers is that there are 848 DIFFERENT words used in the pastoral letters. Of that number 306 ... DO NOT OCCUR IN ANY of the pauline letters of the new testament...

    THAT'S AN INORDINATELY HIGH NUMBER; ESPECIALLY given the fact that about two thirds of these 306 words are USED BY christians AUTHOURS LIVING IN THE SECOND CENTURY.THAT suggests that the authour is using vocabulary that WAS BECOMING more common after the days of paul, and that he too therefore lived after paul.


    PAGE 99
    FOR one thing, sometimes this authour uses the same words as paul, but MEANS something different by them.


    CONSISTENCY MAY NOT ALWAYS BE A GOOD ARGUMENT TO PROVE AUTHENTICITY

    is consistency really a good argument to prove that a book goes back to the authour it is attributed to?according to scholars , isaiah has 3 authours living at different times.in forged, it says that reactualizing of TRADITIOn by the different authours using the name Isaiah helped decieve ppl into thinking that the book of isaiah was WRITTEN by the isaiah from jerusalem

    EXAMPLE Of Reactualization of tradition

    A tradition is "reactualized" when it is made actively relevant (reactuated) to a new situation. Suppose a highly influential authour in 1917 condemned Christians who drank alcohol, on the grounds that doing so made them leave thier senses and behave irresponsibly. Fifty years later, a different problem has arisen people have started using hallucinogenic drugs. A new authour wants to tell Christians that they are not to do any such thing. The new authour living in 1967, writes an essay claiming to be the famous and respected authour from 1917, condemning not just alcohol consumption, but also the use of drugs. This new authour stands in the tradition of the older authour and makes the tradition applicable to the "actual" situation he is addressing. In other words, he has "reactualized" the tradition


    page 126. Writing in the Name of God
    why the Bible's authours are not who we think they are
    FORGED Bart D Ehrman


    hawkeye, remember that in ehrmans book the PRACTICE of the nt writers TO PRETEND to be SOMEONE else would have been CONSIDERED

    "FALSELY INSCRIBED WRITINGS"

    "LIES"

    "BASTARDS"

    PAGE 120.

    SO TO evaluate your nt ACCORDING TO ANCIENT standards would mean that ancients THOUGHT that the writings in your nt was "BASTARDS" "LIES" "FALSELY INSCRIBED WRITINGS"
    Last edited by theman09; 13th July 2012 at 14:07.
    If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.

    Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm

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    Default Re: jesus in genesis?

    did the Qur'aan understand begotten in pagan terms? did the bible ?

    http://callingchristians.com/2012/07...ited-part-2-2/

    is the christian god a god of love?

    http://debunkingchristianity.blogspo...-jealousy.html
    If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.

    Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm

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    Default Re: jesus in genesis?

    Moreover, did Matthew and Luke really consider Mark to be “inspired Scripture?” Once we study the changes made to the Marcan narrative by Matthew and Luke, it becomes rather obvious that they are correcting Mark and desire to replace it with their own improved accounts. Naturally, the way they use Mark as a source, make a variety of changes to its stories, makes it most unlikely that they regarded Mark to be “inspired “Scripture.” Thus, we may argue that by taking Mark to be “inspired Scripture,” James White, as well as other Christians, end up opposing the beliefs of the authors of Matthew and Luke since they, most likely, did not deem Mark to be “inspired Scripture.”

    ----------------- -------------------------------------------------------
    John’s portrayal of jesus
    Well, it does if you presume that the other ones are at least somewhat accurate. For instance, if you were to go by only John, think about what Jesus' life would look like.
    1.jesus never would tell a parable
    2.Never would cast out a demon
    3.Goes around talking about how awesome he is and how he is the messiah, while in the other gospels he hides it and tells people not to tell anyone
    5.Would not have a special birth
    6.Would not be baptized by John the Baptist
    7.Would not be tempted in the wilderness
    8.Wouldn't pray in the garden of Getheseme
    Wow. I guess none of those were important enough to even mention!

    What about the Lords Supper? Not important? John doesn't appear to think so, he never mentions it, even though he mentions that they had dinner.

    In the other gospels, Jesus at one point takes John and Peter up a hill and then Jesus gets lit up like a Christmas tree in glory. Remember, John's main point throughout his gospel is that Jesus is an awesome god. You really think he just didn't decide to include the freakin' transfiguration because it wasn't important or because someone already said it? If he wasn't including stuff that other people already said, then why mention the crucifixion or resurrection? Oh, I guess because those *are* important, unlike the transfiguration and the last supper?

    Now, since it is asserted that the gospels are inspired by the holy spirit, and since there is only one god, then that means that believing the gospel of John is legitimate means we have to beleive the Jesus himself dictated these confused stories about himself. Even worse, the courtroom oath comes to mind "do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?". It seems that claiming that the Gospel of John is real is claiming that the holy spirit told an inaccurate story at least once, and maybe more than once. That seems an awful lot like blaspheming the holy spirit, which according to Mt 12:31 is a ticket straight to hell.

    Looking at many gospels, I have to admit that if Mk, Lk and Mt are accurate, then the Gospel of Thomas seems much more likely to be accurate than the Gosple of John. The GoT at least has a lot of very similar sayings, and few if any radically different public portrayals of Jesus like John has.

    It's not about "removing" the historical witness - it's about deciding if there is a historical witness there to begin with. I don't assume that the gospel of mary magdalene has a historical witness either until it is examined.



    can god die?



    No – one said that death is the cessation of existence: but in any case this is irrelevant to the discussion of whether God experiences death. Our understanding is that even for humans, death is an experience of the personhood after which it continues in a different or more fundamental form. Whether it ceases to exist and is ‘remade’ I don’t care to say.

    So to answer your attempt to (inappropriately) introduce Islamic theology to answer a point of Christian doctrine, we believe that there is an existence after death. Whether it is continuous or there is a ‘gap’ of non-physical (or even souls) existence is to be clarified. So don’t pretend that we are all agreed that there is a continuous existence with no period of non – existence after death. This is twisting Islamic Kalam to help a Christian idea, which is invalid methodology in any case.

    If you assert that (a death with a continuous or discontinuous ‘existence’ presumably of the soul) for God, that’s up to you: We certainly do not. In any case, something immortal does not experience death i.e. it does not die, whether death is cessation of existence, moving on to a different plane of existence, re-incarnation or whatever.

    If you would like to say that God experiences death but it is not cessation of existence, fine. That is also what Christians assert for humans as you implied, that death is not ‘the end’ so there is nothing interesting or rhetorical about this ‘death is not the end’ point at all and your attempt to use it is not helpful in distinguishing God in any way.

    ‘As far as I can tell Muslims hold that after physical death you go to glory or judgment. This is certainly what Christians believe. Therefore when Jesus died as God he could still run the world- As he didn’t cease to exist’

    Then the same is true of humans. Can they continue to run their daily affairs after or DURING the process of ‘death’? Can a guy make a sandwich while experiencing death? Are you asserting that dying is of no consequence as regards people’s interactions and ability to affect change in the physical realm? I think the analogy is inappropriate. And BTW, that’s not what Muslims believe, but that’s another story.

    If you would assert that the ‘soul’ or whatever of God can undergo the same process of death as a human or an ape or a dog or a cat (!) then you must show in what way ‘God’ is still empowered to run the universe during his death, since in this respect, creatures are most certainly not ‘in control’ during their death. Or maybe you assert that human beings resurrect and raise THEMSELVES from death.

    Also, if you persist in these types of analogies, then for humans ‘death’ involves the change of the human to a spiritual body, at least according to the Bible. What change does death effect in God? And if it effects no change, then is such a death to be called a death at all?

    You further need to prove that there is a continuous existence of the souls for humans or whatever and it is not merely in a storage device as a pattern or in the ‘mind’ of God. So you are unable to show from your doctrine that there is a continuous existence during which death is merely an event and not a destruction and remaking or a gap till the day of resurrection or storage as a pattern or whatever speculation you would have us undertake.

    In any case, it makes no sense for Paul to assert that God is immortal or does not die if by this he means God is the same as the ‘immortal soul’ of human beings. Then he might as well say: ‘humans are immortal, they do not die’ etc. In fact, you have put your ideas into the mouth of Paul: He did not say speculate whether death is or is not the cessation of existence, he said God does not die, He lives forever etc. You have now come along and said that death is not the cessation of existence, but as you well know, the same is true for humans, so I don’t see how that makes God exceptional, except that in the case of humans, their continued existence after death is dependant on God whereas God’s continued existence must then depend on some other agent (who would then be the real God). If this is not the case then God’s death was in no way a real death since it was not an experience of his soul which required an outside agent to reverse it.

    Either he did not die in any real sense and the doctrine of salvation is redundant or he did die and Paul (of Tarsus not of Williams) is wrong.



    how do christians try to reconcile contradictions in the gospel accounts?


    1 means 2?

    If I say yesterday in a news report "1 person was shot at a bank robbery" that does not leave the possibility that I could mean "2 people were shot yesterday in a bank robbery"




    If I said i played football against a team of 10 men the other day (when there should be eleven), you would claim, "that's OK, you obviously meant 11 men since 11 men includes 10 men. Just because you said 10 doesn't mean there weren't 11!"



    deceptions yhwh deceptions

    https://groups.google.com/group/alt....4b?dmode=print


    1 does not mean one because they don't say ONLY one ?

    I just ate 2 donuts.
    Marcus: That's great Jim, but i was having this argument about inerrancy and now I have to ask you whether by 2, you mean 3...or 4... or 5... or 5001...

    Hey Marcus. I just stayed in Vancouver for 6 nights.
    Marcus: That's lovely. but by 6 nights, did you actually mean 7... 8... 9... 2546...


    part time incapacitated god of the christians


    For example, the Christian side will always cherry-pick Biblical passages that support an elevated deified Christian Jesus man-god, but when presented with other Biblical verses that clearly do not support the definition of God, they claim that “…this is the human side of Jesus vs the God side of Jesus”.

    Rev. Green in his initial address emphasised that there were passages or words in the Biblical verses supporting the deity of Christ that could not be understood or interpreted in any other way. Yet, he failed to respond to the fact that “immortal” and “unseen”cannot be understood or interpreted in any other way. In failing to do this Christians typically imply or state that Jesus was part-time God and part-time human. If Christians claim that Jesus became human to connect and draw close to his Creation, then Jesus could not be fully or complete human if he was switching roles between being God one minute and human another minute – this is not what a human is capable of doing. Presented with Biblical passages that clearly identify God as “immortal” and “unseen”, Christians cannot irrefutably claim or prove that Jesus was God beyond a reasonal doubt.



    "ONLY ONE ANGEL"




    In English, using the indefinite article "an" means referring to a single thing. There is no need to say "only one" unless there was some reason to suggest the reader was expecting more than one. How ridiculous would it be if Matthew said "Behold, there was a mighty earthquake and ONLY one angel descended from heaven and rolled away the tomb!" Only one? It wouldn't make sense. Saying AN angel is the same as saying ONE angel. Also, it's not just the number or species of angel that's a problem, but when and in what manner the angels appeared to whom.
    Last edited by theman09; 15th July 2012 at 18:40.
    If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.

    Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm

  11. #86
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    Default Re: jesus in genesis?

    was the girl in deuteronomy raped and did she have to marry her rapist?

    http://religionatthemargins.com/2011...moral-monster/

    is the ot god the same as the nt god? is god love? is hate good in certain situations?

    http://debunkingchristianity.blogspo...-jealousy.html


    Now, according to Christians, one ought to have agape love for his enemies. We see from the definition above, that would mean Christians ought have unconditional love for their enemies. Also note that Yahweh is kind to the "ungrateful and wicked," according to passages above cited from Luke 6. In Ron's example, the father ought have unconditional love for his daughter's rapist, and Yahweh will be "kind" to the rapist. I still say--BIZARRE!! According to Christians, one ought be "self-sacrificing" to his enemies. So, the father and daughter ought sacrifice themselves to the rapist/attacker. Perhaps the father can "turn his cheek" over to the rapist too. I still say-BIZARRE!! According to Christian agape love, the father should respond to the rapist with well-being instead of ill-being. I still say-BIZARRE!! Well, I hope that you get the point.


    yhwhs conditional love

    "If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers." Deuteronomy 7:12


    "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments. " Deuteronomy 5:9-10











































    So again I say--bizarre. The Christian must resort to Humpty Dumpty semantics in order to try to make sense out of this nonsense. For in Ron's example, the father ought love the man raping his daughter, more than he loves his own daughter! Not only is he supposed to love him, but he is also supposed to express his love for his daughter's attacker. To paraphrase Jesus, "If someone rapes you, let him rape you again. If someone takes your virginity, do not stop him from taking more. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back." Now, let's see if we substitute agape love for eros or philia, does that help? Agape love is:









    "If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers." Deuteronomy 7:12


    "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments. " Deuteronomy 5:9-10


    That is, you should punish those who hate you, and love those who love you. In the case of the father whose daughter is being raped, he ought to punish and HATE the rapist. The father ought stop the rapist from raping his daughter. The father ought show the rapist no mercy. The daughter ought not give herself to the rapist if he demands her too, nor should the father give his daughter to the rapists

    "You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong. You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the Lord abhors." Psalm 5:5-6


    "The Lord examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates." Psalm 11:5

    "The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their cry; the face of the Lord is against those who do evil, to cut off the memory of them from the earth." Psalm 34:15-16



    "The Lord’s curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the home of the righteous." Proverbs 3:33



    "The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death. The Lord detests men of perverse heart but he delights in those whose ways are blameless. Be sure of this: The wicked will not go unpunished, but those who are righteous will go free." Proverbs 11:19-21



    For example, in the time of war, being a "good thief" and thus being able to steal supplies from the enemy would be a virtue--stealing in this case would be a virtue. Likewise, hate would be virtue if it provided the motivation and energy to defeat the enemy



    blood god


    A-- Christians claim that only by the shedding of blood can their sins be forgiven, and a living thing must die in order for sins to be forgiven--whether it be the innocent animals that were put to death to "please" god (Genesis 8:20-21) before Jesus, or Jesus himself. How bizarre--especially considering an all-powerful god could have found a much more humane method to forgive the sins of humankind. Not only do we find many instances of animal sacrifice in the Bible, there are also references to child sacrifice as well. In Exodus for example, it states:

    "Redeem with a lamb every firstborn donkey, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem every firstborn among your sons."Exodus 13:13


    The definition of Redeem is as follows:

    1.to buy or pay off; clear by payment: to redeem a mortgage.
    2. to buy back, as after a tax sale or a mortgage foreclosure.
    3. to recover (something pledged or mortgaged) by payment or other satisfaction: to redeem a pawned watch.
    4. to exchange (bonds, trading stamps, etc.) for money or goods.
    5. to convert (paper money) into specie.
    6. to discharge or fulfill (a pledge, promise, etc.).


    To many of the ancients peoples, human sacrifice was seen as something so holy and powerful, that even the sacrifices to other gods was recognized as legitimate when practiced by other groups. In 2 Kings chapter 3 for example, there is a description of a war against Moab. In this war, the Moab king felt defeat was imminent, so he appealed to his god for help by sacrificing his son on the city walls (2 Kings 3:26-27). On seeing this, the Israelites fled in terror as they felt the Moabite god Chemosh would defeat them after receiving such a sacrifice.


    http://debunkingchristianity.blogspo...waste-and.html
    Last edited by theman09; 18th July 2012 at 15:42.
    If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.

    Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm

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    Default Re: jesus in genesis?

    how christians explain away biblical contradtions

    http://debunkingchristianity.blogspo...nt-i-have.html







    1. The goat offering that was offered as an atonement for the Israelites was actually not killed in some cases.


    And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

    And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

    2. The lamb offering that was offered on Passover was actually a peace offering, i.e. thanksgiving for God bringing the Israelites out of Egypt. I didn't represente atonement but thanksgiving...



    But Abraham performed the sacrifice as an act of God, i.e. he was told by God to specifically do it. The Romans weren't performing any sacrifice per the Gospel, they were killing a 'criminal'.

    4.

    innocent v bodily faults

    An animal is always innocent, for it doesn't commit sins. By blemish, the word refers to an animal that doesn't possess faults, like diseases and sickness.

    5.


    When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man shall release it in the desert.


    In the first case, the atonement relates to the Holy Places, while the latter means the removal of their full collective sins. It is the freeing of the goat, which allows him to carry off the sins, that leads to atonement.

    This type of atonement, otherwise called Yom Kippur, is a special atonement:




    "This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites."

    And it was done, as the LORD commanded Moses.
    In an act of such significance, a live goat was let go to carry off the sins. What this means is that God did not need the blood of the animal for that event, which was done once a year for all the sins of the Israelites.


    god offered himself as a sacrifice, he planned/willed his own death? the romans didn't kill the criminal but god? refer above "killing a criminal" ....

    Further, you believe it was God himself, but such a belief one can carry to every single murder in the world, i.e. God sacrifices thousands of children and woman to the Roman army. In the OT, the destruction of Israel by the hands of idolaters is ascribed to God's will. Does that mean God 'offered' them?


    "Christian apologists will argue that Jesus was unblemished of sin. To be frank, this dogma genuinely frightens me. This is the logic that pagan societies used in offering up their children in human sacrifices -- they reasoned that their children were sinless. "


    taymiyn

    It doesn't matter is one of the meanings of the word 'tamiym' is innocent. It also means not possessing any physical flaws. The meanings of a word are defined by usage. An animal cannot be innocent in the sense of sin, because animals do not sin, thus usage dictates that it refers to physical aspect.




    He was not taken anywhere near the Temple, i.e. it wasn't in Jewish territory, but purely Roman territory. Further, the Jews did not find him 'worthy of death', they tried to make him 'worthy of death' and his alleged crucifixion had nothing to do with a Jewish trial, but a Roman trial, i.e. insurrection.




    Forgive your people their sins and all the offenses they have committed against you, and grant them mercy before their captors, so that these will be merciful to them. For they are your people and your inheritance, whom you brought out of Egypt, from the midst of an iron furnace. " Thus may your eyes be open to the petition of your servant and to the petition of your people Israel. Hear them whenever they call upon you, because you have set them apart among all the peoples of the earth for your inheritance, as you declared through your servant Moses when you brought our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord GOD."

    In this case, Solomon predicts that Israelites will sin and be expelled from the Temple, necessitating that sacrifices will not be performed. The only condition Solomon stipulates for repentance is praying to God, towards the Holy House and Temple. Isaiah spoke many times about how God does not need the sacrifices of His people, but what he desires his repentance meaning that sacrifice is just one aspect of the law and definitely not the foundation as far as it concerns repentance and atonement.




    Present to the LORD an offering made by fire, a burnt offering of two young bulls, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect. With each bull prepare a grain offering of three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil; with the ram, two-tenths; and with each of the seven lambs, one-tenth. Include one male goat as a sin offering to make atonement for you. The goat offering was a 'sin offering' while the 2 bulls, 1 ram and 7 male lambs were burnt offerings to the Lord, meaning two things:

    1. There were multiple offerings done on Passover, the majority of them done as a burnt offering, not as a sin offering

    2. There was no lamb sacrificed on Passover for the atonement of sins per Numbers, but a goat. This in itself testifies to the ignorance of the Gospel writer who connected Jesus' alleged sacrifice to the 'lamb', which was actually sacrificed as an act of thanksgiving on Passover, not atonement. The reason for the institution of this practice was:



    According to the OT, God told them to place in on the doorstep so that God could recognize the Houses of Israel. As far as Leviticus 17:11, that is just one aspect of the sacrifice law.




    'And whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell among you, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for yourselves; for it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.' Therefore I said to the children of Israel, 'No one among you shall eat blood, nor shall any stranger who dwells among you eat blood.'
    It also states afterwards:



    "Whatever man of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell among you, who hunts and catches any animal or bird that may be eaten, he shall pour out its blood and cover it with dust; for it is the life of all flesh. Its blood sustains its life. Therefore I said to the children of Israel, 'You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.' And every person who eats what died naturally or what was torn by beasts, whether he is a native of your own country or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening. Then he shall be clean. But if he does not wash them or bathe his body, then he shall bear his guilt."


    In this case, the blood that is spilt is simply covered up with dust and has nothing to do with the 'altar' nor is it connected with the act of atonement. These verses are not related to the rules of sacrifice and how to seek atonement for sins, but the forbiddance for drinking blood




    "'To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices which they offer in the open field, that they may bring them to the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of meeting, to the priest, and offer them as peace offerings to the Lord. And the priest shall sprinkle the blood on the altar of the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and burn the fat for a sweet aroma to the Lord. They shall no more offer their sacrifices to demons, after whom they have played the harlot. This shall be a statute forever for them throughout their generations.'"

    In this case, blood was shed as a peace offering. As stated before, your using one aspect of the sacrifice offering and ignoring it for other aspect.




    This very phrase is also used, but the offering is not that of blood for atonement, but jewels from the spoils of war.

    Exodus 30:15 also mentions a similar practice:



    The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

    This clearly refers to the acts of charity which are meant to purify the soul from sins of past, and blood is not shed. What we learn from this is that all pious acts of God were meant to purify the individual and atone for sins. This wasn't confined just to sacrifices, but sacrifice is just one aspect in which this was obtained. When the Lord was wroth with Israel, per the Book of Numbers, it was stated:



    And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.

    In this case, the atonement was not accompanied by sacrifice, but by lighting the incense. Was incense lit at the crucifixion Temple? Was charity given on that day, while Jesus was supposedly hung on the cross? Further, as I stated many times, the Levites were also offered as 'sacrifice' to the Lord, when they were commissioned to maintain the Temple. They were not perfect nor sinless, thus the very idea that sacrifice means a person has to be sinless is violating the very principles of law on which the OT is based.



    "as for the OT God only made nations destroy Jerusalem whenever Israel disobeyed...for instance worshiping false idols... "


    Exactly meaning, the OT specifically states that God will destroy the Israelite nations, through other nations, meaning it is his will. The distinction your attempting to make with respect to Jesus is without a doubt artificial that has no basis in reality. Romans killed Jews all the time and crucified them. What difference is with that being God's will and God's will of 'killing' Jesus through crucifixion. Any act can conceivably be attributed to God's will from the perspective of the crucifixion, such as a murderer killing a child.


    innocent v blemish

    Animals are unblemished, which has nothing to do with sin but physical defects. The offering that is brought for sacrifice isn't a condition of perfect-ness, but an animal that doesn't possess flaws like disease. An Israelite, if given a choice to sacrifice a healthy animal and one with disease or one leg, is going to choose the latter, because losing him doesn't do much for him. For an offering to be acceptable to the Lord, the Israelites needed to demonstrate some sense of wrong-doing, thus presenting an animal that didn't have flaws.

    It has nothing to do with 'sin'.





    In your case, the Romans chose their place of killing Jesus and it was a pagan place of punishment and the pagans killed Jesus. If one argues that Jesus was sacrificed by God according to fulfilling the law, then God violated the very law He supposedly established, which was not slaying his offering at a 'pagan altar' as well as accepting an offering by a Roman soldier. This is a gross violation of the Israelite law and in no way can be considered fulfilling the law.

    As I said, your picking and choosing and such a belief is not only gorssly against the text of the OT, it is without a doutb against common sense and rational thinking.



    As quoted regarding Solomon and Isaiah, God does not need sacrifices and this is stated in countless places, for example Isaiah:




    To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
    When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
    Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
    Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
    And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

    It is explicitly stated that what is required of God is to stop doing the evil one is committing and do good. God is said to shun the sacrifices, meaning he does not need them for Israel is full of corruption.



    So we have multiple points:

    1. There are laws speaking about the atonement of sins through the shedding of blood
    2. There are laws speaking about the atonement of sins through the act of charity
    3. There are laws speaking about atonement of sins through the act of burning of incense, accompanied by repentance
    4. There are statements from God, per Isiaih and other Prophets, that He does not need sacrifice but repentance and the doing of good
    5. There are statements from Prophets like Solomon which refer to repentance without the need of sacrifice

    What your claiming an absolute rule that doesn't exist. We aren't even speaking about the poor among Israel who could not afford an animal. God even granted them an exception as regarding the rituals of sacrifice and atonement. This actually leads us back to Isaiah's condemnations which are really aimed at specific group of elites, for they filled the Temples with sacrifices. To fill the Temple, one has to be a pretty wealthly nation, but the Almighty said he doesn't need them and it sick of them, for they ignore the realities of faith and religion, which is same disease spoken of during the time of Jesus (AS).

    "I would like to say that this in no way mentions bringing jewelry as a way of atoning sins...."

    Again, the same exact phrase, as an atonement for your souls, is used in all the specified scenarios. This means that they all refer to the same thing. There is absolutely no arguing around this point.

    Whether or not the money goes to the Levites, is irrelevant, for one is talking about the atonement of the one's performing the act, not the Levites. I am quite familiar with where the money went and for what purposes, but that is absolutely irrelevant to the contention.



    EXCELLENT!!!!!!
    The conditions of a sacrifice being unblemished weren't confined to just sin sacrifices, but thansgiving as well as peace offerings. Does one have to be sinless to offer thanks or make a peace offering? Your analogies are off-the-wall...


    This is actually erroneous, for God himself ordered that the idolaters from among Israel be killed, i.e. wiped off the fact of the earth. But that is not the point, the point being, this is even attributed to God's will. Acts of idolaters killing Jews is attributed to God's will. This doesn't mean the 'crucifixion' was some 'spectacular' plan of God, for events like this were happening all the time.


    So the Romans were offering the sacrifice, i.e. pagans? God violated the very OT law that you claim as the very reason for crucifixion? As I stated before, you take one law and ignore the rest of the laws that don't serve your point. It is clear throughout.



    "I doubt the reason he sacrificed animals is only because they are healthy or some have complete legs because this can be applied to humans as well.. "

    How strange is your reasoning? Don't animals suffer death, which is the 'price of sin'? So an animal is better than a human? So pieces of jewelry are sinless as well? Flour and agricultural goods that were offered by poor people are sinless?

    Again, the word is not 'perfect', the word is unblemished. There is no such thing as a perfect animal. The word is used in the context of animals, meaning it clearly refers to the lack physical deformities and diseases. The issue of 'sin' has no bearing on an animal, because sin is only relevant for those that make moral choices. To include as a reason of animals being offered for sacrifice, when they themselves don't even have the ability to possess the quality, is absurd. Further, Jesus isn't the only human in the world to not suffer from physical deformities. And if we are to argue that God only accepts the laying down of a life by an unblemished human being, than this means that God doens't accept the leper and the blind, and thos with disease, i.e. the very people Jesus ate and drank and cured and sat with.


    Your claiming that God brought him to his altar and committed the act of sacrifice through the Romans... If such is the case, than it was a pagan practice, because the OT law is clear that a pagan cannot sacrifice an animal and a Gentile defiles the sacred territory. This is a reason why the Jews never accepted Gentiles in the Temple and it was an act of sacrilege for this to happen. So once again, your claiming God violated his very law, which you claim is the very basis by which Jesus' had to be sent. You contradict your whole premise from the get go...


    The OT laws are explicitly clear that blood does not have to be shed for an atonement to be accepted.


    2. There are laws speaking about the atonement of sins through the act of charity

    3. There are laws speaking about atonement of sins through the act of burning of incense, accompanied by repentance


    "the only exception I have seen for sin was fine flour if the certain jew could not afford an animal.. Which means what?"

    The condition for an animal sacrifice and blood is only required for those that can afford it, whether it is a sin, peace or thanks-giving offering. The implication of this is that it isn't the actual animal that is what causes atonement, but the sacrifice of the individual himself. Blood does not need to be shed for any sin to be atoned for by God.




    If it was for the benefit of the Jews, then what exactly are you arguing that the atonement of sins through Jesus was in fact necessary for mankind per God's own law in the OT? As I stated multiple times, your violating the very principle of your own argument.
    Further, your seriously not going to tell me that one cannot champion the cause of the oppressed and the widow, and assist the poor and stand for justice and avoid sin? God isn't telling the people that the reason he has required sacrifice is because they cannot do these things, he is stating that he doesn't delight in offerings, when people desire and want to do evil.

    Again:



    I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
    God, per Isaiah states that He doesn't delight in the sacrifices. He then goes on to state:



    Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.


    God states that He will forgive them their sins if they involve themselves in the stipulated actions, and as a result they will become as white as snow because their sins will be forgiven.



    Further, as I stated multiple times, blood is shed in so many different rituals in the OT, with different implications, meaning what for your implication that blood must be shed for sins to be forgiven? Does blood need to be shed for thanksgiving to be offered? Did Jesus die for the thanksgiving of mankind, per your theology? All these questions are rhetorical by the way, not meant to be answered, because the answers are obvious.


    Aaron lit incense and went to the Israelites to collectively repent with them to prevent the plague, and he did not sacrifice a single animal.


    "God says he does not have any delight in them he'd rather the jews not sin at all..
    that's obvious...
    now the question is can the jews or any human not sin at all ? "

    Again:



    Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

    He then says:



    Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

    The implication of your statement is that God is telling them He is sick and tired of their sacrifices and that he doesn't want them, but what he wants is leaving evil, pleading for the cause of widow and help the orphans, and cease doing evil and that if they do that, so that they will become white like snow, but at the same time saying they cannot do these things? What type of God and horrible reasoning is this???


    "does it say repentance removes sin ? "


    So Solomon, a Prophet of God, doesn't understand that blood is necessary for a sin to be washed away, and he is making a prayer for something that cannot be done? What tyep of horrible reasoning is this?



    Consider this passage, which contains a warning from the Law-bringer Mosheh himself of the times when we would be exiled from Eretz Yisraél---

    "Adonai will scatter you among the other races and few of you will be left among the nations where Adonai will send you; and there you will serve gods that are man's handiwork - wood and stone - which cannot see or hear and which do not eat or breathe. But from that place you will seek out Adonai your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him out with all your heart and all your being... in the later times, when you are in distress because of all these things that will have happened to you, then you will return to Adonai your God and you will start listening to His Voice, because Adonai your God is a compassionate God - He will not abandon you and He will not destroy you, because He will never forget your ancestors' covenant that He swore with them..." (D'varim 4:27-31).


    There is no mention here of sacrificial ceremonies, because Mosheh knew they would not be possible when Yisraél was scattered among the nations of the World and without a Temple to perform them in. In his own words, "from that place you will seek out Adonai your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him out with all your heart and all your being" - in other words, sincere and heart-felt repentance is all that is required to "find" God and be forgiven.

    The same message was repeated again and again by all the prophets. Almost five centuries after Mosheh's death, wise King Sh'lomoh echoed the words of the great Law-bringer in his prayer of consecration at the the First Temple's dedication---


    "If they sin against You - for there is no man who never sins - and You become angry with them and give them over to an enemy and their captors carry them off captive to an enemy country, far or near... and they take the matter to heart in the country to which they will have been carried off captive and they repent and beg You in their captors' country and say 'We sinned, we acted crookedly, and we were wicked' and they return to You with all their heart and all their being in the country of their enemies who captured them, praying to You towards their own land that You gave to their ancestors (the City that You chose and the Temple that I have built to make You famous)---

    then, in Heaven, the foundation of Your abode, You will hear their prayer and their begging and you will do right by them: You will forgive Your nation for what they sinned against You and for the rebellious ways in which they rebelled against You, and You will arouse their captors' compassion for them so that they will treat them mercifully - because they are Your nation and Your inheritance whom You took out of Egypt, out of the iron-smelting crucible! So may Your eyes be open to Your servant's begging and to Your nation Yisraél's begging, and may You listen to them whenever they call out to You..." (M'lachim Alef 8:46-52).


    In this prayer Sh'lomoh, who was a prophet as well as a king, foretells the long exiles that Yisraél would suffer in later times, and he predicts that during those periods of exile, in the depths of despair, God's nation would one day repent sincerely and return to His service, turning to face in the direction of our ancient homeland and the site of the ancient Temples to pray to Him (as we continue to do to this very day) - and the prophet-king assures us that our attempts to reach God in this way will be successful. The message was reiterated two and a half centuries later by another prophet, Hoshé'a ben B'éri, whose 14 chapters of writings stand first in the book T'rei Asar, "The Book of the Twelve Prophets"---


    "...for Yisraél's sons will be left for many years without a king or a prince, sacrifices or obelisks, éfod or t'rafim - but after that, Yisraél's sons will repent and seek out Adonai their God and their Davidic king, and in those later times they will tremble for Adonai and for His goodness" (Hoshé'a 3:4-5).


    Unlike his contemporaries Michah and Y'shayahu, whose prophecies concerned only the southern kingdom, Hoshé'a's prophecies were addressed to both southern and northern kingdoms (a feature that his writings have in common with those of Amos). Nowhere is this as clear as in the passage just quoted, with its three contrasted pairs "no king or prince, no sacrifices or obelisks, no éfod or t'rafim" - the prophet refers to the legitimate Davidic monarchs of the southern kingdom as "kings" while he describes the self-styled northern monarchs merely as "princes", and he contrasts [a] the divinely-ordained sacrificial rituals practised in the southern kingdom with the northern kingdom's idolatry, typified by the Ba'al-"obelisk" that Aḥ'av had erected in Shomron (which was removed by his son Y'horam as recorded in M'lachim Beit 3:2), and [b] the éfod or "robe" worn by the Chief Kohén in the Y'rushalayim Temple with the t'rafim (household idols) that were common in the northern kingdom (the word t'rafim is best known from chapter 31 of B'ré**** where Raḥel "stole" her father's t'rafim).

    In his final chapter, Hoshé'a gives some practical advice to those of "Yisraél's sons" who "in those later times" will "tremble for Adonai and for His goodness"---


    "Yisraél, return to Adonai your God - your sins have caused you to stumble! Take words with you and return to Adonai: say to Him 'Oh please, forgive our sins and accept our good [deeds]' - we will pay with our lips in the place of [sacrificial] oxen" (Hoshé'a 14:2-3).


    The "translation" of the final phrase of verse 3 that is given in christian "Per-Versions", namely "so will we render the calves (or 'bulls') of our lips", apart from being meaningless (what are "the calves or bulls of one's lips"?), is in any case grammatically impossible because the Hebrew text reads וּנְשַׁלְּמָה פָרִים שְׂפָתֵֽינוּ u-n'shalmah parim s'fateinu - the word פָּרִים parim does mean oxen or bulls, but it is not in s'michut (the possessive case); "the oxen (or bulls) of..." would have to be פָּרֵי parei. A more accurate (and more meaningful) rendering is as given above, corresponding to the literal reading "we will pay oxen [with] our lips", reinforcing the prophet's exhortation at the beginning of the sentence to approach God "with words".

    The prophets also speak frequently about a third route to "atonement", and it is this one that they say God prefers:

    "Sin is atoned through kindness and truth; one turns from evil though having respect for Adonai" (Mishlei 16:6).
    "Doing charitable deeds and justice is more pleasing to Adonai than a sacrifice" (Mishlei 21:3).

    "...so, Your Majesty, let my advice be acceptable to you - your sins will be removed by charitable deeds and your wrongdoings [will be removed] by showing mercy to the poor..." (Daniyel 4:24).

    "...I delight in kindness rather than sacrifice and in closeness to God more than olah-offerings..." (Hoshé'a 6:6).

    "...What shall I approach Adonai and bow myself before the Supreme God with? Should I approach Him with olah-sacrifices or calves in their first year? Will Adonai be pleased by thousands of rams, or tens of thousands of rivers of oil? Should I give my own first-born child [in payment] for my rebellion or the fruit of my own body [in payment] for my soul's errors? Mankind, He has already told you what is 'good', what it is that Adonai wants of you - only to act justly, to love kindness, and to walk modestly with your God" (Michah 6:6-8).

    So says Adonai, Yisraél's God: "...I did not speak to your ancestors or command them about olah-offerings or sacrifices on the day that I brought them from the land of Egypt, but I commanded them only about this one thing: Obey My Voice, and I will be your God and you will be My nation; and then you will walk in all the ways that I will command you, and it will be well with you..." (Yirm'yahu 7:21-23).


    The prophet Y'shayahu sums all of this up in eight verses of his opening chapter. He portrays God as saying that He is sick and tired of empty, insincere prayers and the endless parade of "sacrifices" offered by sanctimonious sinners just "going through the motions" but without true repentance in their hearts---


    "What use to Me is the huge number of your sacrifices?" Adonai says - "I am fed up with olah-offerings of rams and the offals of fattened calves, and the blood of oxen, lambs and goats does not give Me pleasure. When you come to appear before Me - who asked this of you, to come trampling through My courtyards? Do not bring your meaningless min'ḥah-offerings any more - I find it a disgusting stench... Rosh Ḥodesh, Shabbat, even the Festival assemblies - I cannot tolerate crookedness mixed with 'service'. My soul detests your Rosh Ḥodesh and Festival observances, they have become tedious to Me; I can no longer put up with them. When you hold up your hands I will hide My eyes from you; I will not hear you no matter how many 'prayers' you say - because your hands are covered with blood! Wash, purify yourselves, remove the badness of your deeds from before My eyes, stop doing wrong! Learn to do right, seek justice, protect victims, treat orphans justly, support the claims of widows.

    "Come, please, let's discuss this rationally," Adonai says - "even if your sins are like bright crimson, I will bleach them as white as snow: even if they are as red as tola I will make them like [the colour of] wool!" (Y'shayahu 1:11-18).

    Note that "When you hold up your hands" in verse 15 is a reference to the kohanim performing the ceremonial "blessing" of the congregation as prescribed in B'midbar 6:23-26, and tola in verse 18 is a bright scarlet dye.

    What is "repentance" and how does one do it?

    The Hebrew word for "repentance" is תְּשׁוּבָה t'shuvah (although, strangely, this word does not occur anywhere in the Scriptures). Literally, t'shuvah means "returning", i.e. "coming back" to God; and it is in this context that the prophet Hoshé'a says "Oh Yisraél, return to Adonai your God... return to Adonai..." (Hoshé'a 14:2-3) The concept is well represented throughout the Scriptures, though, and is nowhere depicted more clearly than in the 3rd chapter of Yonah's writings---



    A message from Adonai came to Yonah for a second time: "Stand up, go to that great city Nin'veh, and make to it the announcement that I will tell you". So Yonah stood up and went to Nin'veh, as Adonai had commanded him (now Nin'veh was an enormously large city - it was three days' walk across). Yonah started to walk into the city and, when he had gone about one day's walk, he began to call out: "Nin'veh will be overthrown in another forty days!" Now the people of Nin'veh believed in God, so they declared a Public Fast and dressed themselves in sacking, from the greatest to the least of them. When Nin'veh's king heard about it, even he rose from his throne, removed his royal robes, dressed himself in sacking, and sat on ashes; on the advice of his officials he ordered that a proclamation should be made throughout Nin'veh: "Neither man nor livestock - the cattle and the sheep - is to eat or drink anything; all of them - both people and livestock - must cover themselves in sacking and cry out loudly to God! All men must return from their evil ways and the violence in their hands! Who knows, perhaps God will relent and change His mind, and turn His blazing fury away from us and not destroy us?"

    And when God saw their deeds - that they had returned from their evil ways - God did change His mind about the destruction He had decreed that He would bring upon them - and He did not do it. (Yonah 3:1-10)


    Fundamentally, "repentance" is a state of mind: being sorry for the wrongful acts one has committed - feeling regret for having done them. Unless one genuinely feels remorse, there is not and cannot be true "repentance". As I mentioned earlier, the prophet Hoshé'a advises us to approach God in repentance "with words", that is to say, with prayers begging for forgiveness (Hoshé'a 14:3), but such prayers will never be effective if the penitent is not actually feeling remorse for the sins he is "repenting" from. Furthermore, a person cannot force himself to "feel sorry" - he either is, or he is not. A truly saintly person will automatically regret having done wrong, but then again, a truly saintly person would not have done wrong in the first place. In reality, however, none of us is either "truly saintly", or "thoroughly wicked": we are all of us somewhere in between. In the end, it comes down to learning to be honest with oneself and accepting one's own shortcomings; it's only when a person overcomes the arrogance of thinking he is always "in the right" that he will be able to admit (even to himself) that he did something wrong, and only then can he feel remorse for having done it.

    In Hebrew culture, it has never been considered sufficient merely to say that one feels remorse for having done something wrong and that one is "sorry" for having done it. The Torah prescribes that, on Yom Kippur, when we come together as a community to "repent" and seek forgiveness for all the wrongs we have done in the preceding year, we are to "make our bodies suffer" (Vayikra 16:31, 23:27, 23:32; B'midbar 29:7), a term that means fasting (abstaining from both food and drink). Prayer is also implied, because fasting without prayer is both meaningless and pointless. In Biblical times fasting was accompanied by the symbolic act of dressing in sacking, which is coarse and uncomfortable, and also very unattractive. By making these sacrifices (using that word in a very loose and general sense) the penitent demonstrates his remorse in a very practical way, and they are far more meaningful "sacrifices" than slaughtering an ox or a goat that never did anyone any harm.

    It will be seen from the passage from Yonah quoted above that the people of Nin'veh adopted all these practices: their king ordered them to abandon their wicked behaviour, to fast, and to dress in sacking, and to pray for forgiveness. He himself even went one step further, humbling himself by "rising from his throne and sitting on ashes". Verse 9 shows that he didn't even know for sure whether their "repentance" would "save" them (Who knows, perhaps God will relent and change His mind...), but the following verse states clearly that it did, and that it was their practical demonstration of remorse that led to them being forgiven: "And when God saw their deeds - that they had returned from their evil ways..."
    Last edited by theman09; 20th July 2012 at 20:00.
    If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.

    Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm

  13. #88
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    Default Re: jesus in genesis?

    how to bastardize what the bible says

    This is ridiculous because no two claimed numbers that are different can ever be a contradiction because one number is always smaller than the other, and is thus claimed to be a subset of another.

    If I said i played football against a team of 10 men the other day (when there should be eleven), you would claim, "that's OK, you obviously meant 11 men since 11 men includes 10 men. Just because you said 10 doesn't mean there weren't 11!"




    Your Jack and Jill analogy is simply a false analogy. it is not numerical.

    If I say yesterday in a news report "1 person was shot at a bank robbery" that does not leave the possibility that I could mean "2 people were shot yesterday in a bank robbery".

    I would simply be wrong in my first claim.

    Wow. I can't believe you really believe your own bs. You were unable to rebut my football analogy. In order for you to claim you understanding you would have to qualify. This is absolutely empirically true. If you claim what you do in all seriousness (I honestly don't think you really believe that) you would have to, and I now expect you to, when told any number in any context, ask the commentator to qualify themselves.

    Jim: Hey Marcus, I just ate 2 donuts.
    Marcus: That's great Jim, but i was having this argument about inerrancy and now I have to ask you whether by 2, you mean 3...or 4... or 5... or 5001...

    Jane: Hey Marcus. I just stayed in Vancouver for 6 nights.
    Marcus: That's lovely. but by 6 nights, did you actually mean 7... 8... 9... 2546...

    Marcus' mum: Marcus, can you go and buy me 2 chairs?
    Marcus: Sure.... Here you are.
    Mum: Why have you bought me 56 chairs?
    Marcus: Well, 56 includes 2 right? So I am technically not wrong.
    Mum: Marcus, did I teach you to be such an idiot?



    Your numerical defence is so shoddy it makes me laugh.

    If , in a court of law, I claimed I was assaulted by 3 men, and then the defence claimed, or a witness claimed, there were two men who assaulted me, this would be a contradiction that called into question at least one of the accounts. They would NOT SAY "well, three includes the number 2!"




    THEY ARE NOT DIFFERENT DETAILS such that one claimed he was wearing sandals and another witness claimed he had blonde hair such that the two pieces of information could be pieced together. There are two claims of the same subject - the numerical value of the demoniacs. If you don't get this, and keep making your rather embarrassing defences, then there is no hope for you... you need to give me concrete examples where people writing history say one thing but mean another, numerically speaking. Tell me where a quote when someone says "the army was 10,000 strong" actually meant something like "the army was 150,000 strong" because 10,000 is a subset of 150,000! You are utterly bastardising the English language. I have illustrated this with many analogies which you have simply ignored.





    The problem is, and your next point clearly proves this, is that you depend on the fallacy of equivocation in order to sustain your argument. Your are conflating

    "immediately a man from the tombs with an unclean spirit met Him"

    with meaning

    "at least one".

    If he meant that, he would have said that. I have shown rather conclusively that by utilising that logic, you would not be able to have sensible conversations normally. I have clearly shown above where equivocation gets you.















    eg:

    15 hooligans were hanging around the football ground. One of the hooligans...


    or

    a hooligan...

    walked up to the policeman.

    The second option is still stretching it. YOU CANNOT without any context at all simply say:

    A hooligan walked up to the policeman...

    When another account says:

    2 hooligans walked up to the policeman...



    this may seem sensible on a quick glance, but this actually makes little sense. 'An' is an indefinite article, as opposed to 'the' being a definite article. By saying 'a' or 'an' we are actually inferring a numerical value to an undescribed item. 'A man' is a singular man who has yet been specified. 'The man' is a singular man who has previously been specified. Such that

    "a man from the tombs with an unclean spirit met Him"

    infers a singular man who has yet been mentioned. It is now incumbent upon you, or Marcus, to show when using an indefinite article could possibly mean 2. Each and every time it is used as far as I know it indicates a singular item. Remember, the other account says

    "two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29 And they cried out, saying,"


    thus implying that two men are doing things together, both of them crying out, where Mark only says one (a man) did this.

    "A man walked up to me yesterday and hit me"


    does not mean that there could have been two men who did this.


    "An apple fell off the table" means a singular apple fell off, not two.


    In order to think it is one apple out of many requires MORE INFORMATION. Such like "An apple fell off the table, leaving the others in tact" or "One of the apples fell off the able" but this requires the definite article as opposed to the indefinite article.

    "A bus crashed into a car yesterday" cannot be interpreted as perhaps meaning "two buses crashed into two cars yesterday"

    "An intruder broke into my house last year" does not imply more than one otherwise one would say "several intruders..." etc

    I could go on ad infinitum. The point, I think, is rather clear. In order to take on his claim of grammatical understanding, it would need to be set out differently, or he would need to show examples of this that are not false analogies and that clearly show this as a widely understood usage, otherwise the equivocations still stands.

    Also, you do realise that "a" and "an" derive for the Old English for... "one".

    Oh, and if you were still unsure:

    The word some is used as a functional plural of a/an. "An apple" never means more than one apple. "Give me some apples" indicates more than one is desired but without specifying a quantity. This finds comparison in Spanish, where the singular indefinite article 'un/una' ("one") is completely indistinguishable from the unit number, except where it has a plural form ('unos/unas'): Dame una manzana" ("Give me an apple") > "Dame unas manzanas" ("Give me some apples"). However, some also serves as a quantifier rather than as a plural article, as in "There are some apples there, but not many."



    Lets talk about some examples where the "words" don't CONTRADICT the fact, but we still feel they are duplicitous.



    Jim has been dating Jane for several months. He picks her up one Saturday evening and during their evening casually asks what she did that day. She says,

    "I went to the mall with my sister, Diane. We went to a movie, had lunch and then came right home."


    What she really did was go to the mall with her sister where they met two guys. Then the four went to a movie together and hung out at a bar for 2 hours. Then Jane and Diane dropped the guys off at the mall, had some lunch and came directly home.

    Did what Jane told Jim contradict what Jane actually did that day? She DID go to the mall with her sister, they did go to the movies, they did have lunch, they did come straight home. When Jim finds out later that Jane and her sister had actually gone to the movies and a bar with some other guys, does Jim have a good reason not to trust Jane?

    Jim visits his doctor, who after diagnosis says you have


    "some and such rare disease."

    During the course of the visit, the doctor says,

    "There's a good chance you have 6 months to live."

    Jim is naturally shaken up and proceeds to get a second opinion. The other doctor provided the same diagnosis, but says that disease has never been known to be fatal. Jim goes back to his original doctor and asks him why he said he only had 6 months to live. His doctor corrects him and says,

    "I only said there is a good chance you have 6 months to live. I said nothing about your dying."


    Is the first doctor's prognosis contradicted what the second doctor said? Does Jim have a good basis to change doctors and get his medical advice from someone who talks more precisely?

    On Jim's first day on the job, his boss explains that Jim "will get paid $10 per hour for making 10 widgets per hour." Jim works for several months and then finds out that all his co-workers are making $20 per hour by making 15 widgets per hour.

    Did the bosses statement to Jim on his first day contradict the actual pay scale? He was being honest, the company policy is that if you only make 10 widgets per hour, you only get $10 per hour. Does Jim have reason not to trust his boss?

    A teenager and his father are working on a project one Saturday. They need something at the hardware store which is only 15 minutes drive from the house. Junior asks can he go and get the stuff since he just got his drivers license etc. Dad says yes, but says,


    "Come straight home."


    Junior says,


    "OK, I'll run to the hardware store and come straight home."

    Junior gets sidetracked on the way to the hardward store and goes by his girl friends house for a couple of hours, then goes to the hardware store and then drives directly home. When he gets home, his dad asks him why it took so long.

    Junior explains that he went to his girl friends house BEFORE he went to the store and DID come straight home from the store.

    Does dad have reason to think Junior misled him with his statements? Did Juniors promise to run to the store and then come straight home contradict what he actually did? I mean, he did run to the store right after he spent two hours at his girl friends house. Well, whatever you think, I can tell you my dad thought I had misled him. He was an avid believer in the bible where it says thou shalt not bear false witness. Telling half truths, to him, was the same as bearing false witness. But maybe modern christians have a different moral code.

    So, are we to trust the bible to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Or should we be suspicious when accounts don't match?
    If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.

    Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm

  14. #89
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    Default Re: jesus in genesis?

    If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.

    Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm

  15. #90
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    Default Re: jesus in genesis?

    “But even now,” says the LORD, “repent sincerely, and return to me with fasting and weeping and mourning. Let your broken heart show your sorrow; tearing your clothes is not enough.” Come back to the LORD your God. He is kind and full of mercy; he is patient and keeps his promise; he isalways ready to forgive and not punish. Perhaps the LORD your God will change his mind and bless you with abundant crops. Then you can offer him corn and wine. (Joel 2: 12-14)


    Notice that unlike Paul who nails the forgiveness of sins on the cross, Jewish prophet Joel emphatically states that God is too kind, forgiving and considerate to accept sincere repentance and blot out sins! Joel’s God invites sinners to Himself so that He may forgive their sins! God of the OT does not need any cross to forgive sins, His mere virtue of kindness is enough amalgamated with the fasting, weeping and mourning of sinners.


    “I may warn an evil man that he is going to die, but if he stops sinning and does what is right and good – for example, if he returns the security he took for a loan or gives back what he stole – if he stops sinning andfollows the laws that give life, he will not die, but live. I will forgive the sins he has committed, and he will live because he has done what is right and good. And your people say that what I do isn’t right! No, it’s their way that isn’t right. When a righteous man stops doing god and starts doing evil, he will die for it. When an evil man gives up sinning and does what is right and good, he has saved his life. But Israel, you say that what I do isn’t right. I am going to judge you by what you do.” (Ezekiel 33: 7-11, 14-20)


    (1)No matter how big the sins and wrongs be, “Life can be saved” or in other words, forgiveness/salvation can be achieved by (2) turning away from sins, doing good deeds and (3) following the “Law that give life”, (in other words “law” is not a “curse” as Paul erroneously assumes (c.f. Galatians 3: 13) but a blessing) and then (4) God “will forgive the sins they have committed”.



    “But the worship of Baal, the god of shame, has made us lose flocks and herds, sons and daughters – everything that our ancestors have worked for since ancient times. We should lie down in shame and let our disgrace cover us. We and our ancestors have always sinned against the LORD our God; we have never obeyed his commands.” (Jeremiah 3:24-25)



    Even after the worship of the idol – “Baal”, witness the love, mercy and forgiving capacity of God – Almighty:



    “The LORD says, “People of Israel, if you want to turn, then turn back to me. If you are faithful to me and remove the idols I hate, it will be right for you to swear by my name. Then all the nations will ask me to bless them,and they will praise me.” (Jeremiah 4:1-2)


    Notice that even when the Israelites acceded that they have “ALWAYS” sinned against God by worshipping others besides Him and “NEVER” ever obeyed His command, the forgiving God responded by embracing them “BACK TO HIM (SELF)”. God had no need for Jesus’ (peace be upon him) blood to forgive even the most hideous and perennial sin of worshipping BAAL!

    In fact God confirms through Jeremiah that if sinners mend their ways then He would forgive them (without any need of innocent’s blood):



    “If at any time I say that I am going to uproot, break down, or destroy any nation or kingdom, but then that nation turns from its evil, I will not do what I said I would.” (Jeremiah 18:8)



    “I am the high and holy God, who lives for ever. I live in a high and holy place,but I also live with people who are humble and repentant, so that I can restore their confidence and hope. I gave my people life, and I will notcontinue to accuse them or be angry with them for ever. I was angry with them because of their sin and greed, and so I punished them and abandoned them. But they were stubborn and kept on going their own way. “I have seen how they acted, but I will heal them. I will lead them and help them, and I will comfort those who mourn. I offer peace to all, both near and far! I will heal my people. But evil men are like the restless sea, whose waves never stop rolling in, bringing filth and much. There is no safety for sinners,” says the LORD.” (Isaiah 57:15-21)


    Not just Israelites but even Egyptians, a non-Semitic civilization with no expectation of Messiah (peace be upon him), would also be healed or in other words forgiven, if they repent:

    “The LORD will punish the Egyptians, but then he will heal them. They will turn to him, and he will hear their prayers and heal them. (Isaiah 19:22)




    but because of their humbleness, fasting, obedience and repentance shown to God:

    “Once again the LORD spoke to Jonah. He said, “Go to Nineveh, that great city, and proclaim to the people the message I have given you.” So Jonah obeyed the LORD and went to Nineveh, a city so large that it took three days to walk through it….he proclaimed, “In forty days Nineveh will be destroyed!” The People of Nineveh believed God’s message. So they decided that everyone should fast, and all the people, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth to show that they had repented. When the king of Nineveh heard about it, he got up from his throne, took off his robe, put on sackcloth, and sat down in ashes. He sent out a proclamation to the people of Nineveh: “This is an order from the king and his officials: No one is to eat anything: all persons, cattle, and sheep are forbidden to eat or drink. All persons and animals must wear sackcloth. Everyone must pray earnestly to God and must give up his wicked behavior and his evil actions. Perhaps God will change his mind; perhaps he will stop being angry, and we will not die!”

    “God saw what they did; he saw that they had given up their wicked behavior. So he changed his mind and did not punish them as he had said he would.” (Jonah 3: 1-10)

    “Soon after Jehoiakim son of Josiah became king of Judah, the LORD said to me, “Stand in the court of the Temple and proclaim all I have commanded you to say to the people who come from the towns of Judah to worship there. Do not leave out anything. Perhaps the people will listen and give up their ways. If they do, then I will change my mind about the destruction I plan to bring on them for all their wicked deeds. (Jeremiah 26: 1-3)


    “I hear the people of Israel say in grief, ‘LORD, we were like an untamed animal, but you taught us to obey. Bring us back; we are ready to return to you the LORD our God. We turned away from you, but soon we wanted to return. After you had punished us, we hung our heads in grief. We were ashamed and disgraced, because we sinned when we were young.’ “Israel, you are my dearest son, the child I love best. Whenever I mention your name, I think of you with love. My heart goes out to you; I will be merciful. Set up signs and mark the road; find again the way by which you left.Come back, people of Israel, come home to the towns you left. How long will you hesitate, faithless people? I have created something new and different, as different as a women protecting a man.” (Jeremiah 31:18-22)



    ..


    “Turn to the LORD and pray to him, now that he is near. Let the wicked leave their way of life and change their way of thinking. Let them turn to the LORD, our God; He is merciful and quick to forgive. “My thoughts.” says the LORD, “are not like yours, and my ways are different from yours. As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways and thoughts above yours.

    “My word is like the snow and the rain that come down from the sky to water the earth. They make the crops grow and provide seed for sowing and food to eat. So also will be the word that I speak – it will not fail to do what I plan for it; it will do everything I send it to do. “You will leave Babylon with joy; you will be led out of the city in peace. The mountains and hills will burst into singing, and the trees will grow where now there are briars; myrtle-trees will come up in place of thorns. This will be a sign that will last for ever, a reminder of what I, the LORD, have done.” (Isaiah 55:6-13)



    It must be observed that God claims that He is MERCIFUL AND ABUNDANTLY FORGIVING (“quick to forgive”), in other words, He wants to copiously forgive returning sinners; all that sinners are needed to do is to “leave their (wicked) way of life and change their way of thinking”. God absolutely does not put any restrictions on his incessant mercy and forgiveness through sacrifice of any innocent Prophet (peace be upon him). We need to ponder that if God is willing toexcessively forgive solely on His own account then why will He need cross, blood and an innocent?



    In fact, as a sign of this free out pouring forgiveness and mercy, God would grow“myrtle-trees in place of thorns” not to later nail and belittle it on the cross.



    Another observable facet to the above passage is that it is human nature not to give things freely but to ask for return, however, merciful God, in the passage, boasts of his free forgiveness by proclaiming that His “ways are different from yours (humans)”.



    This is an ironical response to Paul – a mortal, who thought that God like mortals would demand blood and flesh of Christ (peace be upon him) to forgive heavy yokes of oft – repeated sins resembling “give and take” policy. However, according to yet another Christian commentator, God was/is ready to forgive freely and abundantly:



    “For – If any man injure you, especially if he do it greatly and frequently, you are slow and backward to forgive him. But I am ready to forgive all penitents, how many, and great, and numberless soever their sins be.” (John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes, Isaiah 55:8)



    Jewish commentator Solomon Ben Isaac (Rashi) also concurs of the free and unconditional mercy:



    For My thoughts are not, etc.: My laws are not like the laws of man [lit. flesh and blood]. As for you, whoever confesses in judgment is found guilty, but, as for Me, whoever confesses and gives up his evil way, is granted clemency(Source)



    It can be deduced that for grant of clemency or forgiveness, unlike the understanding of vicarious atonement, one needs to:



    1.Confess his/her sins.
    2.Turn away from sins.
    3.And subsequently, receive clemency/forgiveness of sins.


    In the above facts, it is hard to insert the concept of vicarious atonement through the alleged death of Messiah (peace be upon him).



    From the above cited Isaiah verse, esteemed Christian Commentator Albert Barnes (also) postulates pre-requisites to avail salvation. It would be interesting to observe if he gives place to the alleged blood and cross of Christ (peace be upon him). He comments:



    “Let the wicked … – In this verse we are told what is necessary in order to seek God and to return to him, and the encouragement which we have to do it. The first step is for the sinner to forsake his way. He must come to a solemn pause, and resolve to abandon all his transgressions. His evil course; his vices; his corrupt practices; and his dissipated companions, must be forsaken.
    If you or I had the option to pay for our sins by being crucified and dying in a few hours (jesus did not even suffer as much as most of the other folks who were crucified in his day) or suffering eternal hell, it would be a no-brainer. We would choose to be crucified.

    Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament Oxford University Press. 1993. Reviewed by Robert M. Price
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ho_corrupt.htm

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