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Thread: morality in China - (warning graphic)

  1. #16
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    Default Re: morality in China

    Quote Originally Posted by tufail_74 View Post
    DocW should know facts while commenting. He should have gone through any kind of document to know what were reason behind those wars. USA lead war surely made the area volatile and gave chance to people to create anarchy.


    Please keep in mind i dont agree to what is happening to china as per the video but i replied to what was wrongly mentioned about Pakistan.
    Please clarify my misunderstanding bro. Are the Americans planting suicide bombs in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq?

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    Default Re: morality in China

    Quote Originally Posted by Dench View Post
    Look at the map of the muslim world brother and you'll find this was systematically done and the same issues arises in almost every muslim country we see today. In some cases the brits had the gaul to simply put a straight line through one community, dividing them from one another and simply throwing them over to a new owner or allied victor of the region. policy was simple, conquer and divide.
    while this is pretty much correct, i would like you to go even further back in history, and see why we became colonized in the first instance. We lost on both arenas - losing focus on the Book, as well as not being in-with-the-times enough (whether technologically, scientifically, educationally, or whatever else).. Muslim civilization itself became inward-looking historically which was the main reason for getting colonized.. As an example, most of the exegesis works are much more convoluted and most of our madarssa syllabi itself is much more complex than the straightforward nature of the Quran, so for a long long time we kept going around in circles and missing the woods for the trees, though yes Islam remained on the ascendant as an ideal reference for us. Today, it seems we are on a crossroads - either we will lose our idealistic reference to Islam itself, or inshaAllah we could see a second Islamic renaissance in every field in this century itself.
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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    Default Re: morality in China

    Also your last point, if you follow the news then you'll notice muslims are outraged with the occupation of muslim lands, with the killing of innocent civilians, with sectarian violence, and stand with the oppressed against the oppressors such assad, the saudis, and the likes of them.

    Can you specify which Muslims are we referring to? Pakistan is supposed to have democracy, Islamic government, dow e have sectarian violence or not? What have the Muslim countries done when Iraq invaded Kuwait? Who provided support to freedom fighters in Libya? What is the stance of Muslim countries against Syrian government? How many years did the war go on between Iraq and Iran? Who took a stance against violation of human rights by Saddam Hussain in mass genicide of kurds? What democracy or human rights do we have in Saudi Arabia? Freedom of speech? women allowed to drive car?

  4. #19
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    Default Re: morality in China

    Dench,

    Thank you for your response. I want to point out an important thing in your post and that is the example of the family. In it you mention the victim vs the criminal; notice the "victim?" This is exactly what I am talking about...self-victimization. We are not victims. Much of what is/has happened is a result of ourselves. Think of the Ottamans and how the other Muslims undermined them because they wanted power for themselves. You mentioned it yourself. Even today you'll hear ridiculous stories about how horrible the Ottamans by Arabs. Believe I'm not saying they were great but they were villfied enough to create this embellished illusion. Violence and injustice has been long a feature of Muslim lands. I blame Muslims because before the external forces they were responsible and after they too were responsible because they allowed it to happen. Does this mean I take it easy on the imperialist powers who thought everyone was a lowly animal and they were the civilized? Absolutely not. But that conversation has its own context. When Muslims realize this they can better judge the matter. You cannot move forward by constantly complaining about how you're being kept down.

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    Default Re: morality in China

    Quote Originally Posted by shaad_lko View Post
    while this is pretty much correct, i would like you to go even further back in history, and see why we became colonized in the first instance. We lost on both arenas - losing focus on the Book, as well as not being in-with-the-times enough (whether technologically, scientifically, educationally, or whatever else).. Muslim civilization itself became inward-looking historically which was the main reason for getting colonized.. As an example, most of the exegesis works are much more convoluted and most of our madarssa syllabi itself is much more complex than the straightforward nature of the Quran, so for a long long time we kept going around in circles and missing the woods for the trees, though yes Islam remained on the ascendant as an ideal reference for us. Today, it seems we are on a crossroads - either we will lose our idealistic reference to Islam itself, or inshaAllah we could see a second Islamic renaissance in every field in this century itself.
    I agree. Our phases reminds me of a hadith:

    "Prophethood will remain with you for as long as Allah wills it to remain, then Allah will raise it up wherever he wills to raise it up. Afterwards, there will be a Caliphate that follows the guidance of Prophethood remaining with you for as long as Allah wills it to remain. Then, He will raise it up whenever He wills to raise it up. Afterwards, there will be a reign of violently oppressive [The reign of Muslim kings who are partially unjust] rule and it will remain with you for as long as Allah wills it to remain. Then, there will be a reign of tyrannical rule and it will remain for as long as Allah wills it to remain. Then, Allah will raise it up whenever He wills to raise it up. Then, there will be a Caliphate that follows the guidance of Prophethood."


    Quote Originally Posted by DocW View Post
    Also your last point, if you follow the news then you'll notice muslims are outraged with the occupation of muslim lands, with the killing of innocent civilians, with sectarian violence, and stand with the oppressed against the oppressors such assad, the saudis, and the likes of them.

    Can you specify which Muslims are we referring to? Pakistan is supposed to have democracy, Islamic government, dow e have sectarian violence or not? What have the Muslim countries done when Iraq invaded Kuwait? Who provided support to freedom fighters in Libya? What is the stance of Muslim countries against Syrian government? How many years did the war go on between Iraq and Iran? Who took a stance against violation of human rights by Saddam Hussain in mass genicide of kurds? What democracy or human rights do we have in Saudi Arabia? Freedom of speech? women allowed to drive car?
    Brother, My post already answered both of these question.

    In regards to 'which muslims', i've answered:

    "Muslims have used and continue to use various different means to get that point accross to the world and the ummah, wether through social media, marches, demos, flotillas, lobby groups, political parties/organisation (most of whome get banned) and some have even turned to violence(most of whome are branded terrorist and thrown in jail)."

    In regards to my position on the governments in muslim lands (not to be confused as 'muslim/islamic' govts) ive also highlighted my thoughts on this issue over two posts, covering many of the examples you have bought up. i suggest you re-read them as you've ovlerlooked core parts of my arguments..

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Dench,

    Thank you for your response. I want to point out an important thing in your post and that is the example of the family. In it you mention the victim vs the criminal; notice the "victim?" This is exactly what I am talking about...self-victimization. We are not victims. Much of what is/has happened is a result of ourselves. Think of the Ottamans and how the other Muslims undermined them because they wanted power for themselves. You mentioned it yourself. Even today you'll hear ridiculous stories about how horrible the Ottamans by Arabs. Believe I'm not saying they were great but they were villfied enough to create this embellished illusion. Violence and injustice has been long a feature of Muslim lands. I blame Muslims because before the external forces they were responsible and after they too were responsible because they allowed it to happen. Does this mean I take it easy on the imperialist powers who thought everyone was a lowly animal and they were the civilized? Absolutely not. But that conversation has its own context. When Muslims realize this they can better judge the matter. You cannot move forward by constantly complaining about how you're being kept down.
    Okay, before covering anything else i'd like to put this accusation of 'self-victimisation' to bed:

    Victim=/=Self-victimisation, They're not the same thing.

    Available definitions:


    vic·tim (vktm)
    n.
    1. One who is harmed or killed by another: a victim of a mugging.
    2. A living creature slain and offered as a sacrifice during a religious rite.
    3. One who is harmed by or made to suffer from an act, circumstance, agency, or condition: victims of war.
    4. A person who suffers injury, loss, or death as a result of a voluntary undertaking: You are a victim of your own scheming.
    5. A person who is tricked, swindled, or taken advantage of: the victim of a cruel hoax.



    Self-victimisation (or victim playing) is the fabrication of victimhood for a variety of reasons such to justify abuse of others, to manipulate others, a coping strategy or attention seeking

    To move on from that, I think you misunderstood my example brother.

    I said the 'victim' doesnt become less of a 'victim'.... and the 'criminal' doesnt become less of a 'criminal'" even if both are related, and the household has a right to seek justice even if they are troubled by criminality in their own home.

    Here both the victim and the criminal represent: muslim brothers, the household representing: the 'ummah, and the hooligans outside: The 'colonialists'.

    Ive also argued: "Our judgements can go hand-in-hand, especially when they neither clash nor conflict."

    In effect neither my examples,my arguments nor my posts in general promote or make use of this term/idea of 'self-victimisation'.

    As for the second point, Yes, as an ummah we have had our ups and downs...like any other. we've had periods of good governance aswell as bad, we've had period of success aswell as decline, a period of peace aswell as war, a period of advancement aswell as its loss. But thats not our discussion is it?

    Your argument is that muslims are killing muslims in muslim lands, and that we should'nt use the occupiers as a 'crutch' to either neglect or overlook that internal problem. You are effectively trying say we should fix our own home first before pointing finger at others.

    In turn my responces to this has been consistant, we cannot stop the internal problems without identifying why it exists. And outside influence in fact played and continues to play the biggest role in creating, maintaining and fueling the internal problems we see today. These arent, as are you trying to argue, seperate/isolated issues at all. The fact that you admit that the colonisers rely on these internal divisions in order to colonise the muslims in the first place highlights that fact. maintaining that disunity ive argued is the stategy of the occupiers:

    Lord Curzon said, "We must put an end to anything which brings about any Islamic unity between the sons of the Muslims. As we have already succeeded in finishing off the Caliphate, so we must ensure that there will never arise again unity for the Muslims, whether it be intellectual or cultural unity."


    The only way for the conquered to be free is to remove the influence of the conquerer, and the only way to remove the internal divisions/conflicts is to give the ummah at large(ie all groups within) a focus point that unites them. You cant look to solve one problem without taking into account the existance of the other.

    im also seeking to fix the problem in my house.
    Last edited by Dench; 19th March 2012 at 04:07.

  6. #21

    Default Re: morality in China

    Dench and Ron, Well said. Ron you are right that we should not be too much quick in pointing our fingers at others. Dench I am also agreed with you. You have rightly said
    "we must learn from our history, understand our mistakes, and return to the principles that were given to us. "

    This is what we have to do at this time no matter what thinking and concepts we have.

  7. #22
    Moderator shaad_lko's Avatar
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    Default Re: morality in China

    Quote Originally Posted by Dench View Post
    I agree. Our phases reminds me of a hadith:

    "Prophethood will remain with you for as long as Allah wills it to remain, then Allah will raise it up wherever he wills to raise it up. Afterwards, there will be a Caliphate that follows the guidance of Prophethood remaining with you for as long as Allah wills it to remain. Then, He will raise it up whenever He wills to raise it up. Afterwards, there will be a reign of violently oppressive [The reign of Muslim kings who are partially unjust] rule and it will remain with you for as long as Allah wills it to remain. Then, there will be a reign of tyrannical rule and it will remain for as long as Allah wills it to remain. Then, Allah will raise it up whenever He wills to raise it up. Then, there will be a Caliphate that follows the guidance of Prophethood."
    I dont mean to digress this thread, but are you aware that per some commentators, the Hadith refers to a period that has already passed: the Caliphate that follows the guidance of Prophethood being that of Umar ibn Abdul Aziz, may Allah have mercy on his soul.
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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