scroll down for a working video http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1016187.html
scroll down for a working video http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1016187.html
“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi
as a doctor I found this you tube sickening. I think it should state not for the faint hearetd.
yes you are right, I can't seem to add something in the title of this thread.
“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi
what is the world coming to.
Desensitization has really destroyed the world over.
Islamic Thought In the Modern Era of the Islamic Awakening: Dissemination of Islamic research and studies
“The bonds of Islam will be broken one by one. Every time a bond is undone, the people will cling to the bond that follows. The first of these bonds is rulership (khilaafa) and the last is the prayer (salah).” Reported by Ahmad and Tabarani. Al-Hakim stated that the chain is authentic.
La hawla wa la quwata illa billah... SubhanAllah.... SubhanAllah....can't stop crying.... poor kid...
This is really shocking for me to see this video. This becomes the condition of those societies who do not believe in Allah and Day of Judgement.
My dear brother,if you sincerely analyse then you can understand that all bloodshed in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan has started after US military has invaded these countries and before that there was no such situation of massacre and suicide in those countries. And how you can say that all people behind those suicide bombs are those who are doing this in the name of religion?? This is what media portrays and what about those people who have bombarded in Iraq and Afghanistan, resulting in killing of men, women and children but usually media doesn't display footage of such incidents.
That's nonsense. Please stop with the blame game. When the Russians were ousted by the Afghans who were the people fighting? Were they not Afghans? In Pakistan is it not the Sunnis killing the Shi'a and others? In Iraq, were people not killing each other until Saddam started doing most of the killing? So please spare us the ridiculous excuses of who caused what. Even if outsiders have their hands in the problems that does not absolve the crimes of these people. And yes suicide bombers are typically people who are brainwashed into believing that what they are doing is in the way of God. They don't realize there is a heavy price to pay for their actions...even worse are the people who promote it and validate it. Lastly, the media has its slants but that doesn't change the fact that most Muslims are killed by Muslims. It's a fact you cannot deny and if people like you would start opening up their eyes then there might be some real outrage and change...btw, notice how the Qur'an burnings spurred so many people to action? Why doesn't that happen when lives are taken?
- Your first example: "When the Russians were ousted by the Afghans who were the people fighting? Were they not Afghans?"
They were a failed state, without a government and were engaged in a civil war from the point at which the soviets departed and up untill the US invasion. Iran,Pakistan and India were heavily involved during this civil conflict fighting for influence, and continue to exert their regional power and influence today under US led occupation.
Second example: pakistan was never a unified country to begin with, there wasnt a 'pakistani' or anyone who identifie themselves as such before its inception. The state was artificially created by the british whome arbitarily took land away from baloch areas, pashtun areas, the northern province and gave it to a new political enitity we now know as pakistan. just like they arbitarily signed off palestinian land to new zionist regime without seeking approval of its population. thus we find baloch who are mineral rich seeking independance from pakistan, we find people near its border regions who have more in common with the neighbouring state than the ruling state feeling miffed and siding with the neighbours (iran for example) to empower its cousins, or the general ill will people feel when they see pashtuns as taking most of the benefits. its divided along tribal lines and the conflict is political, not islamic. as assabiyyah is haram.
Iraq, again the same problem. tribalism,arab nationalism, communism, secularists movements, anti-occupation movements,anti-monarchists and pro-nationalist played a far greater role in the internal working and conflicts in the newly formed state than 'islam' did (it was removed from the ottoman caliphate in 1921), Iraq gained independance in 1932 from britian and saddam hussein took the reigns in 1979. That leaves 41 years in-between becoming 'iraq' and then a dictatorship under saddam. if you look into that small time period you will find a lot of reasons why conflicts existed.
I hope by now you are starting to see a theme developing brother, one: these conflict are mainly politically driven in nature and two: they weren't created by the people, but by outside forces whose interest it was to leave it in such a state. though you are right, as muslims we should be wiser and more accountable and shouldve risen above this along time ago.
All in all Basits argument for me is far stronger, and a more accurate portrayal of our current affairs than the argument you posited that it's all simply 'brainwashing' and muslims simply want to kill other for the sake of islam.
Also your last point, if you follow the news then you'll notice muslims are outraged with the occupation of muslim lands, with the killing of innocent civilians, with sectarian violence, and stand with the oppressed against the oppressors such assad, the saudis, and the likes of them. The qur'an too is important. Muslims have used and continue to use various different means to get that point accross to the world and the ummah, wether through social media, marches, demos, flotillas, lobby groups, political parties/organisation (most of whome get banned) and some have even turned to violence(most of whome are branded terrorist and thrown in jail). contrary to the western mud slinging which many fall for, a significant number of muslims in general are very much awake.
Last edited by Dench; 16th March 2012 at 03:15.
DocW should know facts while commenting. He should have gone through any kind of document to know what were reason behind those wars. USA lead war surely made the area volatile and gave chance to people to create anarchy.
for Ron, you should be more positive in responding as u r admin. your views reflects your personality so be gentle to others.
it looks to me that none of you has ever been to pakistan to know the reality. better speak only about a matter when u know ground facts or better keep quiet.
Please keep in mind i dont agree to what is happening to china as per the video but i replied to what was wrongly mentioned about Pakistan.
i guess the important q here is - who is the best community raised to lead mankind, and why is it failing in its duty? Fine, you expect others to be good to you (which they arent) but self-introspection is very important - problems are not going to go away overnight, and this reminds me of Bennabi's theory of colonizability - Muslim societies had internal issues and were amenable to colonization. The Ottomans were tottering for quite a long time, and the Mughals- well between Aurangzeb (the last strong king) and the final takeover by the British, there were still 150 years ! It was like, we were begging for some sort of governance, and well finally it happened.
Moreover, the onus for equitable treatment does not lie with those who are not believers anyway.. one needs to find balance between being silent and playing the victim card. Also, the real reason for a believer will always be : losing focus on the Book..
Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
Agreed with Dench and Tufail. A forum is a place where everyone has rights to express his/her opinion and if someone doesn't agree with us then it doesn't mean that we may label others' opinions as foolish and non-sense. This is a point where we get biased. I agree that there are some problems going on in Muslim countries and their lands but it doesn't give license others to invade and occupy their lands and kill innocent civilians. This is my opinion and every one has a right to contradict with me.
Yes, this a forum and everyone is welcome to post their opinion. However, what I was referring to being nonsense was, "that all bloodshed in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan has started after US military has invaded these countries and before that there was no such situation of massacre and suicide in those countries." Call it what you will but that's patently false. I didn't mean to offend I just meant that it was completely false. Dench outlined the some of the reasons for the chaos but in the end he actually argued in my favor. I never said that outside forces didn't play their role I simply pointed out the victimized excuse that others are causing pain and misery in the "Muslim world." Pointing to the fact that it's politics doesn't change anything. What else would it be? The issues in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Kashmir, etc... are all political. Who's fighting in the way of God? So while I agree that there are some "awake" Muslims my issue is that there are not enough. Where are the Muslim voices in the cases of Burundi, Kurdistan, Rwanda, Tibet, Darfur, etc... where were/are the Muslim voices? It's easy to scream and yell how others are hurting (some) Muslims (because not all Muslims get the same recognition) but the voices simmer when it comes to others. Blaming others and using them as crutches is what I am focusing my criticism on. You see, it is this very attitude the continues to make the weak even weaker but not only that it gives him the ammo to keep himself down. Lastly, whether my views reflect my personality (I'm not sure what the means) or not then in this case it would be a positive. I care about the condition of people and it bothers me when I keep hearing the blame game. It's as if Muslims are so spineless that for a long period of time they've allowed "outsiders" to control and subjugate them. At the same time, they become so preoccupied with pointing the finger at the "outsiders" that they blind themselves to the horrors of their own. I don't need to live in Pakistan or even visit to know that Shias are being slaughtered for their beliefs. I'm not going to coddle people especially when they're at fault.
Where we split however is in our understanding of the causes of such conflicts and our responsibilities towards it. You suggest that there should be no 'blame game' and that we should look at the inter-muslim tensions-(by which i assume you to mean that we should take equal blame), and thus due to this 'guilt' any reference to the causes(wether external or internal) is but a mere 'clutch' in our argument. I disagree.
Our judgements can go hand-in-hand, especially when they neither clash nor conflict. for eg:
A victim of a crime, still remains a victim even if the perpertrator turned out to be his own sibling, and the criminal doesnt become less of a criminal by revealing he is related to the victim. to stretch this argument a bit further, though both the criminal and victim may come from the same household, we cannot deny their relatives the right to justice when they in turn are attacked by external forces...say for example local hoodies throwing bricks,taunting,bullying, and vandalising the property in general.
Taking your position would equate to the family being told to look within at the criminal son before complaining about the hoodies terrorising them on the outside. that's neither a just, moral nor reasonable position to take.
As for the causes and our responsibilities towards it, I'm of the opinion that you cant seek a solution unless you understand the problem.
The point i made, though poorly it seems, is that these inter-muslim conflicts though they may involve parties of the same faith, actually go against the principles of islam from the outset. My argument was never intended to be a justification, excuse or a rejection of these criminal acts, far from it, i accept them. my intentions lie in only trying to understand why they do what they do, and if there is a real,viable solution that can be put forward in order help stop them from continuing down that line of action.
When i pointed at the tensions in pakistan i didnt just pass it off as simply the 'external hand' at work, but i also included the 'internal divisions' that already existed which fuels the conflict we see today. If we dwell into that, some may ask 'how do they relate, and one cause shouldnt be used as a clutch to avoid mentioning/condemning the internal cause'...
... well, heres another question we should ask ourselves: "why would britain avoid drawing out a new map for its ex-colonies based on a single ethnic line( A shared language,history,culture,tradition etc etc), and instead opt to taking small slices out of several different ethno-religious groups, dividing them from their cousins,lumping them in with several other disgruntled groups and then handing them all over to a stranger (in most cases a hand picked monarch) from another group entirely?"
Look at the map of the muslim world brother and you'll find this was systematically done and the same issues arises in almost every muslim country we see today. In some cases the brits had the gaul to simply put a straight line through one community, dividing them from one another and simply throwing them over to a new owner or allied victor of the region. policy was simple, conquer and divide.
Where once we were one community bonded mainly by islam, under one leader: the caliph. The colonialists under syke-picot agreement and the balfour treaty, and various other madates and alignments carved us up, and with the likes of the infamous lawrence of arabia, ataturk, abdul-aziz, and such stoked up the flames of liberation promoting nationalism,tribalism,secularism,ethnic division,religious conflicts and the imperialistic ambitions of few upcomers in the region to fulfill that goal.
Rather than go on and on, just a brief glimps of history shows us that these inter-muslim conflicts have more to them than what meets the eye, the geopolitcs and power-projections of the west(including its puppet regimes in the muslim world) maintains that same policy to this very day.
For eg: when the US threatens iran they use saudi and iraqi air bases and ports to project that power, in responce to the threat iranians try distabalizing saudi/iraqi govts by using shia groups to pressure then and increase its influence as both a warning and self defence mechanism, quickly it become sunni-shia issue. when iran arms hamas the israelis use the MEK (a seperatist terrorist organisation) to carry out assassinations and bombings in iran which quickly becomes a sectarian issue in the country, same in iraq where saddam squashed the shia population in fear of iranian influence which created an undercurrent of tension, but was backed by the US, then repression ofcourse got worse when he lost the iran-iraq war and his allies (UK/US), He also gassed the kurds simultaneously to quell a supposed uprising for independance. Turkey too has issues with the Kurds(PKK) and suffers from terrorist attacks aimed at independants for it people,israeli however threaten to back the pkk if turkey breaks away from normal relations and back the palestinians. similarly when pakistan aids kashmir the indians arm and train anti-pakistani groups to distabilize pakistan and stoke up ethnic conflict, then theres the issue of china ..and on and on and on... so my point is simply branding it as 'brainwashing' doesnt do any of this justice brother.
These countries were drawn up with this imbalance in mind, a way to stop 'unity' at any level, starting from each individual ethnic group seperated by artificial borders and given over to rulers of another group who themselves are either divided or are a minority who rule through fear backed by the west, in turn the nation states themselves are designed to compete and fight with eachother all the while remaining reliant and subserviant to the western powers and its interests.
for me the solution is simple, and brother shaad_lko summed it up perfectly, we fight and are killed because : "the real reason for a believer will always be : losing focus on the Book" - we have turned towards everything we were forbidden and sidelined and rejected our deen.
we must learn from our history, understand our mistakes, and return to the principles that were given to us.
tdlr post i know, sorry bro. i've tried to make my case the best way i can without writing even more than i have lol. i hope ive managed to not deny your position or reasoning as i agree with the principle of the points you made, and yes its also valid we should also look internally with equal scrutiny, but i simply attempt to showcase how and why i come to the conclsions i have and why i take the position i do in my responces to you.
anyways, hope i didnt come across as being harsh or critical of you bro, it wasnt my intention in my last post nor in this one, but i apologise if thats the impression it gave. my communication skills arent that great tbh, but i am trying to improve it insha-allah/
Last edited by Dench; 17th March 2012 at 07:50.