Is it possible to Prove that the Qu'ran or any scripture is from God?

[Algebra]

Ali before you spout off, read the gospels.

I maintain Jesus plainly claimed that his disciples were to consume his flesh. Jesus also plainly claimed that he was the sacrifice of the passover.

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

Also read John 6:22 -59

[Algebra]

Ok so now Ali has lost the argument regarding whether Jesus said the words written in the passover narrative.

He moves on to his next argument (presenting without any reference to source) an assertion that since the epistles of Paul predate the accepted dates for commitment of the gospels to writing, Paul must have invented the whole thing.

This of course presents a huge problem because christianity was never reliant on scripture, but rather on the oral traditions of the church.

It would have been impossible for Paul to have passed on his traditions to every disciple of Jesus. In fact, the epistles would have been maintained by the congregation to which they were addressed and would never have been widely circulated enough for every one of the gospel writers to pick up that one particular narrative.

Lets not forget this was not the age of the internet, nor was it the age of the printed word.

We are dealing with oral traditions, and oral traditions are passed person to person. Those oral traditions are still maintained by the apostolic churches.

In short Ali, no matter how you twist it, your copy-paste affair is poorly considered and just plain wrong. LOL

[Algebra]

Ali do you even read the stuff you post? Do you even know what the Didache is?

Most christians dont know or understand its significance.

[jude3]

Objectively I would suggest that christian scripture is the more accurate portrayal of Jesus simply because of its proximity to the events occurring.

The dozens of verbatim quotes from Jesus himself would help...!;-)

Since I do not believe in "divine dictation" (in the way that you and jude do), the Quran is simply not a credible source of information regarding Jesus.

What about the quotes from God recorded by the writers in the bible? Eg, Moses. Are these quotes 'divine dictations'...?, noting hundreds of times in the bible the words, 'Thus says the Lord.'

You just don't WANT to have God dictate a message...lest it conflict with the Gospel according to St Algebra...!...;-)

[jude3]

well, the Quran doesnt make any claim of Jesus being son of God..

Indeed. But it DOES state the opposite, that God has no son.

So Islam and Christianity have a BIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG challenge working through these 'truths,' something Algebra and Doc cannot understand or accept.

[jude3]

Like the claim that he dies for our sins. A claim that Jesus makes explicitly. I have no doubt that he did say that. The question is what was he thinking when he did.
Does he die because of our sinful nature? Does jesus die because of a particular sin - killing an innocent man?

Its hard to fathom his intent, the passover narrative is even more baffling.

Very telling. Here you admit you believe he made the claim, yet you quickly put your frail/human hat on and go on botu intent...thus leading to non-acceptance and doubt...or lack of faith. Friend, this is why I've tried to stay engaged with you...but surely you must come to some point of acceptance when you openly disclose you question/doubt the text NOT because of it's validity/truth...but because it's a little confusing/unusual.....!? At the end of the day, God says his ways are NOT our ways...so it will always appear baffling....that's the essence of trust/faith, no?

If you have faith/trust in solid metal chair that you've just witnessed a huge bloke sit on, and you wonder if it will hold you....what is the measure of your faith/trust?

The bible says the preaching of the cross is 'foolish' (baffling!)....so you're right on the money, Algebra. The more foolish and baffling, the more the bible is true...and the more you are compelled to accept the blood atonement.

Kind regards.

[jude3]

I would say the familiarity and intimacy of the gospel writers with judaism would make it hard for me to conclude that the authors were anything but jewish.

Romans and Greek gentiles did not spend time becoming intimately familiar with hebrew scripture and rituals.

But I do accept the heavy influence of greek thought in the interpretation and definition of christianity. Not, however in the scripture.

Who wrote the Gospel of Mark?

[Hawkeye]

Who wrote the Gospel of Mark?

Who wrote the Qu'ran?

[shaad_lko]

scribes of the Prophet (pbuh) wrote it down within his lifetime. It is revealed by the Almighty via the Angel Gabriel and recited by the Prophet to his Companions.

[Algebra]

scribes of the Prophet (pbuh) wrote it down within his lifetime. It is revealed by the Almighty via the Angel Gabriel and recited by the Prophet to his Companions.

It amazes me that someone can actually believe that in this day.

This not an argument against the 1 creator deity.

But an argument against the text of the Quran, honestly after reading and re-reading it so many times. I cant fathom how muslim can conclude that there is anything remotely divine about the text.

Just the verse about Allah cursing jews and christians for shirk is evidence that it is the work of a man, a bitter man.

[shaad_lko]

the Quran as a phenomenon has already come to pass - your amazement would be lessenned if you realized that the Quran warned its immediate addressees and the consequences of the warning came to pass. It was a message delivered by a well-known man whom no one before accused of lying.

Of course, the Christians indulged in blasphemy by equating Jesus to be a real son of God. The collective judgment of the Arabs serves as a better indicator of its appeal than your individual sitting-on-judgment, when I doubt your knowledge of Arabic anyway.

[Resigned]

the Quran as a phenomenon has already come to pass

The only phenomenon surrounding the koran that I see is the lurid fascination by muslims with equating a book written by Uthman as having some connection with the gods.

- your amazement would be lessenned if you realized that the Quran warned its immediate addressees and the consequences of the warning came to pass.

Do you realize that the "warning" was not unlike the "warnings" typically offered by tarot card readers and soothsayers?

It was a message delivered by a well-known man whom no one before accused of lying.

Why does being "well known" provide an allowance for idolatry? Further, muhammud was ruthless in his dealings with anyone he thought presented a problem with his delusions of grandeur - he tended to kill them.

Of course, the Christians indulged in blasphemy by equating Jesus to be a real son of God. The collective judgment of the Arabs serves as a better indicator of its appeal than your individual sitting-on-judgment, when I doubt your knowledge of Arabic anyway.

Of course, islamists indulge in the very thing that they claim they don't indulge in: polytheism. Establishing muhammud as a partner and equal to god-status renders islamism as just another polytheistic tradition.

[Algebra]

Well lets reason this out Shaad.

You say that the Quran is the word of God. The absolute intent of God. It has force and presence in every aspect.

The text of the Quran says

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!


30. The Jews call Uzayr a son of Allah and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths; (in this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Aside from the obvious linguistic problems of Allah referring to Himself in 3rd person.

The thought, the intention of God is not manifest in this world at all, it would seem. After fighting against Christians and Jews for their sin, christians and jews have not only survived they have prevailed over the believers for centuries, and likely will continue to do so in the forseeable future.

The semitic tradition is that when God curses, His curse strikes the nation down. Obliterates it completely.

The Quran also mentions the consequence of the curse in the following verses

A curse is made to follow them in the world and on the Day of Resurrection. Hapless is the gift (that will be) given (them). 11:99

And We made a curse to follow them in this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be among the hateful. 28:42

This verse is reason alone to not believe the Quran is not literally the dictated word of God, since it is patently false.

It still in a book of wisdom and guidance. Indeed in many ways it is an apparent improvement over the Bible, because it incorporates much of christian thought, which itself is an important refinement of judaism.

But lets see it for what it is, instead of laboring beneath the delusion that it is literally the word of a creator deity.

[Algebra]

The curse of Allah causes disgrace here and hereinafter


The Qur'anic word, 'la'nah' (translated as 'curse' in absence of a more exact equivalent) means being far removed from the mercy of Allah, extremely debased and disgraced. Anyone under 'la'nah' from Allah cannot be close to Allah. For such accursed ones admonitions are very stern. The Holy Qur'an says:

(The accursed, wherever they be, are to be caught and killed massacre-like.) (33:61)

This is their disgrace in the present life - the disgrace in the Akhirah will be far too grim to contemplate.

Who deserves the 'la'nah' of Allah?

The words of the Holy Qur'an in verse 52:

state that anyone under the curse of Allah has no helper to help him in that predicament. The point to ponder is: Who are these people who become deserving of this 'la'nah' from Allah? According to a hadith, the Holy Prophet has cursed the giver of interest, the receiver and the consumer of interest, and its writer and the one who bears witness to it, the whole lot of them, all of them equally involved in the sin. (Narrated by Muslim as in Mishkat)

There is another hadith in which he said: (Cursed is he who does what the people of Lut used to do). Narrated by Razin and appearing in Mishkat, the reference is to the male homosexual. Then, he said: 'Allah sends his curse on the thief who would not stop from stealing even very small things like eggs and ropes, and in retribution to which, his hand is cut off.' (Mishkat) In another hadith, he said:

"Allah curses the eater of interest, and its feeder, and the woman who tattooes another woman and the woman who tattooes herself, and the picture-maker." (Bukhari, from Mishkat)

In yet another hadith, he has said: 'Allah sends His curse on liquor, its consumer and its server, its seller and purchaser, its squeezers, its handlers, transporters and orderers, on all of them.' (Abu Dawud, ibn Majah,from Mishkat)

In still another hadith, the Holy Prophet has said: 'There are six types of people I have cursed and Allah Almighty has also cursed them - and every prophet is blessed with the acceptance of his prayers - those six are:

(1) One who commits excess in the matter of Allah's Book;
(2) and one who rises to power by force and terror, then honours a person disgraced by Allah and brings disgrace on a person honoured by Allah;
(3) the denier of destiny determined by Allah;
(4) one who takes as lawful what has been made unlawful by Allah;
(5) the person in my progency who rules what has been forbidden as lawful;
(6) and the one who gives up my way {sunnah).' (Baihaql in Al-Mudkhal from Mishkat)

In another hadith, he said: 'Allah curses the ogler and the ogled at.' It means that the curse of Allah falls on anyone who looks at someone in an evil way, someone who is a non-Mahram, that is, someone outside the count of those in the family he is permitted to see because marriage with them is forbidden for ever. This is why such a nazir, the onlooker of the other, comes under the curse of Allah. As for the manzur ilaihi, the one who is looked at lustfully, the same curse will apply subject to his or her having deliberately and invitingly caused such a look to be cast.

Sayyidna Abu Hurairah رضي الله عنه narrates:

"The Holy Prophet has cursed the man who dresses like a woman and the woman who dresses like a man. (Mishkat)

The following report from Abu Dawud appears in Mishkat:

"Someone told Sayyidah 'A'ishah (Radhiallaahu Anha) about a woman who wore (men's) shoes. Sayyidah 'A'ishah said: 'The Messenger of Allah has cursed the woman who takes to masculine ways.'

A narration from Sayyidna Ibn Abbas رضي الله عنه reports

"The Holy Prophet has cursed the effeminate from among men (who, in dress and looks, emulate women-like transvestites) and he has cursed the masculinized from among women (who, in dress, looks and ways, act man-like). And he said: 'Expel them out of you homes.' " (Bukhari, from Mishkat)

Also from al-Bukhari comes the report that Sayyidna 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ud رضي الله عنه said:

"The curse of Allah be on the tattooers and the tattooed, on the pickers of eye-brows and the cleavers of teeth as aids to beauty - they are the makers of alteration in the creation of Allah."

- Maariful Quran-Mufti Shafi Usmani (RA)\

On a side note - dentists and beauticians are cursed!!!

And it doesnt seem like they are any the worse. My dentist, who happens to be muslim seems to be doing just fine.

[shaad_lko]

Well lets reason this out Shaad.

You say that the Quran is the word of God. The absolute intent of God. It has force and presence in every aspect.

The text of the Quran says



Aside from the obvious linguistic problems of Allah referring to Himself in 3rd person.

The thought, the intention of God is not manifest in this world at all, it would seem. After fighting against Christians and Jews for their sin, christians and jews have not only survived they have prevailed over the believers for centuries, and likely will continue to do so in the forseeable future.

The semitic tradition is that when God curses, His curse strikes the nation down. Obliterates it completely.

The Quran also mentions the consequence of the curse in the following verses


This verse is reason alone to not believe the Quran is not literally the dictated word of God, since it is patently false.

It still in a book of wisdom and guidance. Indeed in many ways it is an apparent improvement over the Bible, because it incorporates much of christian thought, which itself is an important refinement of judaism.

But lets see it for what it is, instead of laboring beneath the delusion that it is literally the word of a creator deity.

1) The Quran refers to Allah in the first, second and third person - we've gone through this route before... It contains statements attributed to the Prophet (pbuh), idolaters, hypocrites, Christians, the leaders of the Quraysh and this is no linguistic problem. The claim is that it is a Revealed text, not verbatim statements from God - if you still can't figure it out, unfortunately I cannot help you on this.

2) Sura Tauba (9) which you quoted contains warnings to the different groups present in the Prophet's time, and all those warnings came to pass. Besides, the curse of God is there on the deniers of the Messenger in the Hereafter, so it is immaterial what happens in later generations. The phenomenonal proof of these verses has already happened and been historically recorded.

3) In the time of the Prophet (pbuh), the nations were not utterly destroyed - the Christians and the Jews because they outwardly professed monotheism were granted the status of dhimmis - to pay the jizya and live a life of servitude to the Arabs.

4) Even among the earlier generations that were destroyed for opposing their Messengers, there were righteous people who were saved. This happened in the time of Noah as well as Lot and Moses - there were Egyptians too in the Exodus. So, in a nutshell, your analogies lack substance.