Is it possible to Prove that the Qu'ran or any scripture is from God?

[Algebra]

How was the sinner saved?
How was the thief on the cross saved?
How was Abraham saved?

faith humility and works of true repentance.

[justavisitor]

the Almighty being Merciful does whatsoever is in His wisdom. The leaders were the ones who were the instigators, who actually denied the Messenger and were bent on mischief, thus they were requited. Even today, in public life, the masses but follow, and it is the leaders who strategically decide on policy matters - we hold them responsible for any default in national life. Why should the case of the Divine Judgment be any different?

But those who retreated fought the muslims again in the following battles. Why did God not destroy the muslims' enemies completely at Badr when he could? Why were Muslims allowed to die at the battlefield despite the presence of thousands of angels on their sides?

[jude3]

its interesting because Muslims have no problem in accepting Jesus' teachings and works as part of Islam (Islam meaning submission before God), while of course you would not accept yet that Muhammad is a continuation and confirmation of the message of Jesus..

I'm sorry, but there's something missing here. Yes, our salvation has submission as a component... But that is only half of jesus' teaching. What do you do with the blood covenant and Jesus words re salvation based on the cross? Sorry, but you have to dismiss massive chunks of the ot to ignore the teaching about sacrificial atonement and Jesus being our sacrificial lamb, ONCE slain. Jesus also rose from the dead; he was also the creator of the universe; he existed with the father from the beginning; he claimed to be begotten of the father; and I could go on.

All of these points are contradicted by Islam....so big issue with you saying you believe in Jesus. Which Jesus!?

Kind regards

[jude3]

faith humility and works of true repentance.

Faith in what/who?

Humility? Which verses support this for salvation, please?

"works of repentenc"? That's a new one. Consider Abraham, one catholic friend said abe's 'works' was to continue to have sexual intercourse with Sarah so that god could provide an heir naturally...Isaac. What rubbish. So, you have distorted the very word "works".

What "work" did the prodigal son do?

The "works" in that story were being done by the elder son. Look at him....bitter and huffy that the father received the son based on GRACE and mercy....exactly how the gospel of Jesus Christ is based.

Are you the elder son in the parable, algebra?

I know I am the younger son...rebellious and sinful, but threw myself at the mercy of my heavenly father, and because of jesus' blood atonement, the new covenant, the father receives me back, forgiven and justified....praise god for his love, mercy and favour. Praise yashua for dying for me, in my stead.

Take care friend....

[Algebra]

I've explained this often enough to you.

Would the prodigal son have been saved if he hadnt done the "work" of returning to his father?

What if he continued living amongst the swine and filth and made no attempt to return to his father who helped him forgave him and clothed him?

Would he have then be saved too?

The gospel of faith alone is a lie, it will always be a lie.

The bible is testament against faith alone, and before you quote Paul like a sound bite, read all of the Gospel.

Its spelled out loud and clear, especially in the parables of the servants and the talents and the brides and groom.

[shaad_lko]

But those who retreated fought the muslims again in the following battles. Why did God not destroy the muslims' enemies completely at Badr when he could? Why were Muslims allowed to die at the battlefield despite the presence of thousands of angels on their sides?

maybe they had an element of saneness in them, which is what finally led them to accept Islam. Destruction is never the way of God - its more like Justice tempered with Mercy - why would he destroy everyone? There is always a chance to repent.
Muslims died at Uhud, but this was due to disobeying the Prophet's instructions.

[shaad_lko]

I'm sorry, but there's something missing here. Yes, our salvation has submission as a component... But that is only half of jesus' teaching. What do you do with the blood covenant and Jesus words re salvation based on the cross? Sorry, but you have to dismiss massive chunks of the ot to ignore the teaching about sacrificial atonement and Jesus being our sacrificial lamb, ONCE slain. Jesus also rose from the dead; he was also the creator of the universe; he existed with the father from the beginning; he claimed to be begotten of the father; and I could go on.

All of these points are contradicted by Islam....so big issue with you saying you believe in Jesus. Which Jesus!?

Kind regards

yes, of course those are two different Jesus.. maybe they cross paths in some ways and then don't cross paths in other ways..

[jude3]

yes, of course those are two different Jesus.. maybe they cross paths in some ways and then don't cross paths in other ways..

Ok, so what are you going to do with two Jesus?

What about the Jesus who will have everyone bow down to worship him as lord?

What about the Jesus who said 'no one comes to the father except by me.'

What about the Jesus who said he came from the father?

Don't you have to ignore/dismiss the ot prophecies about Jesus and the nt eye witness accounts and quotes by Jesus, in order to ignore him?

[shaad_lko]

we need to objectively examine and determine which of the two represents the historical Jesus. I understand its heretical for you to degrade the status of Jesus, with or without any preconditions to the same. But in the end, its a clash between two faiths - two separate systems and cultures - Islam comes with its own certitude, the basis of which is the Quran.

For each one of us, there is only one objective truth. However, what is true for one may not be the same for another while we rest assured in our beliefs that we are on the correct path. It is also true : "By their fruits, you shall know them" - as you can see, people accuse both Christianity and Islam of being evil in their fruits at different periods of history. Ultimately, its all about what convinces a person beyond doubt and convinces him/her so much that he takes the leap of faith. Belief usually follows conviction via the intellect, though in case of born Muslims or Christians, it is usually the other way round - i dont know if you have had this experience, but I have doubted Islam sufficiently before believing in it with greater conviction!

[Algebra]

Objectively I would suggest that christian scripture is the more accurate portrayal of Jesus simply because of its proximity to the events occurring.

Since I do not believe in "divine dictation" (in the way that you and jude do), the Quran is simply not a credible source of information regarding Jesus.

[shaad_lko]

Objectively I would suggest that christian scripture is the more accurate portrayal of Jesus simply because of its proximity to the events occurring.

Since I do not believe in "divine dictation" (in the way that you and jude do), the Quran is simply not a credible source of information regarding Jesus.

well, the Quran doesnt make any claim of Jesus being son of God..

[Algebra]

well, the Quran doesnt make any claim of Jesus being son of God..

Well the Bible calls David the son of God, and Elijah the son of man. Jews have never understood the term to be an attribute of divinity.

The problem isnt the source so much as the interpretation of the source.

If you are a greek gentile reading the term son of god you are going to think - Wow, jesus is god. Your frame of reference is your greek pantheon of gods where sonship is not impossible.

If you are jew reading the same thing, you are never ever going to reach that conclusion because your frame of reference is the Torah that absolutely and completely rejects the idea of ascribing divinity to anything but God.

Having said that, the divinity of Jesus rests on more than the mere claim of sonship, it rests on some of the more bizarre claims made by Jesus himself.
These, I must admit, would even throw a jewish follower of jesus into considering his divinity.

Like the claim that he dies for our sins. A claim that Jesus makes explicitly. I have no doubt that he did say that. The question is what was he thinking when he did.
Does he die because of our sinful nature? Does jesus die because of a particular sin - killing an innocent man?

Its hard to fathom his intent, the passover narrative is even more baffling.

Its baffling because its not a traditional passover meal (which is highly ritualized) and the ritual has been defined for about 2500 years (way before the birth of jesus)

He breaks the bread (3 unleavened breads) in a bag and instead of proceeding with the ritual makes a speech about how the bread represents his body. Which will be broken. He then claims that they should repeat this process to remember him. This is even more strange for a jew, because the jew is being told that the passover is no longer the passover of egypt, but now its the passover of jesus. His body and blood is the blood of the passover lamb.

The symbolism in the jewish mind is staggering, this man was saying insane things by jewish standards. He then claims that they are to eat his body, literally consume the sacrifice, just as they would consume a sacrifice to God.

When a jew reads this stuff, knowing judaism, you have to wonder at what this man (possibly more than man) is saying.

For an islamic frame of reference, he is not just defining a new sharia. He is literally making himself the sharia. He isnt the embodiment of the sharia, but rather he himself is the sharia.

Now do you understand how bizarre this claim is?

He is literally taking jewish history, jewish tradition and jewish theology and making it ALL about him.

It does beg questioning.

But...we must remember that there is a reason that there is no categorical definition of the divinity of jesus in christian scripture.

And that reason is this - its just not important.

We can debate endlessly about the divinity of Jesus, and there are good arguments to go both ways.

The reason its up in the air is because its not that important to the ideas that Jesus was teaching, no matter what christians might say.

[shaad_lko]

i'm sure jude would think otherwise of saying that Divinity of Jesus is not important. In any case, the argument that historical proximity by itself is a clue to objectivity is more or less a strawman. In Islam's case, the Prophet himself commissioned the writing of the Quran and was victorious over his enemies which would have given little cause for any adjustment to doctrine as contrasted with the origins of Christianity wherein Roman and Greek influence undoubtedly could have been present to variant degrees.

[Algebra]

i'm sure jude would think otherwise of saying that Divinity of Jesus is not important. In any case, the argument that historical proximity by itself is a clue to objectivity is more or less a strawman. In Islam's case, the Prophet himself commissioned the writing of the Quran and was victorious over his enemies which would have given little cause for any adjustment to doctrine as contrasted with the origins of Christianity wherein Roman and Greek influence undoubtedly could have been present to variant degrees.

I would say the familiarity and intimacy of the gospel writers with judaism would make it hard for me to conclude that the authors were anything but jewish.

Romans and Greek gentiles did not spend time becoming intimately familiar with hebrew scripture and rituals.

But I do accept the heavy influence of greek thought in the interpretation and definition of christianity. Not, however in the scripture.

[ali]

this man was saying insane things by jewish standards. He then claims that they are to eat his body, literally consume the sacrifice, just as they would consume a sacrifice to God

LOAD OF
if that were the case you wouldn' get this reaction from the crowd

“When the crowds saw it, they were in awe, and they glorified God who had given such authority to MEN.”

the guy never said to people to make a meal out of his body it is pagans like paul who claimed that god revealed to him (paul) that jesus' body should be muched on in metaphorical way for spiritual union with god.

i said

12 And having gone forth they were preaching that men might reform, 13 and many demons they were casting out, and they were anointing with oil many infirm, and they were healing them.
jude, according to jesus, john the baptist was the greatest man alive. there is absolutely no report of the man performing any miracles yet according to jesus ,john was the greatest man alive. johns repentance method involved dunking the sinner into water.
now when the deciples in mark 6 went out doing x, y z , how exactly did they reform people , cast out demons, annoint with oil ect? the blood of god idea wasn't even known to them . the crucifixion wasn't even known WHEN THEY WERE DOING THESE GOOD DEEDSand according to the sources we have about 1st century judaism , some sects of judaism rejected the blood sacrifice of the temple, believing god is omnipotent and merciful, and that he could forgive sins without the shedding of animal blood.
what you have to do jude is interpret the DECIPLES DEEDS IN Light of 1ST CENTURY judaisms .

IT is possible that someone is fiddling with the book . the meat and blood of human jesus "spiritually" muched on is in totall contradiction to the earlier jesus.

Didache and pauls different krist v other krists
http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....95#post6856895
http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....61#post6857261
http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....61#post6857261



who sets up a ritual of drinking blood and eating flesh one day before he is murdered?