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Thread: History of Islam

  1. #16
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    Default Re: History of Islam

    The battle of jamal took place between Hazrat Ali rta and hazrat Aisha rta. It is difficult to comprehend that two people so close to prophet pbuh and so soon afetr his death would be engaged not in a difference of opinion but an actual war involving blood shed of Muslims. Shia narratives state that animosity between Hazrat Ali rta and hazrat Aisha stem from the time when hazrat Aisha was accused of msiconduct. Prophet pbuh asked hazrat Ali's opinion on the issue and he said it is not an issue you could always have another wife. Hazrat Aisha became aware of hazrat Ali's opinion on that matetr and thus held a grudge against him.

    Would we state that as Hazrat Ali rta was the designated Caliph of the Islamic world that the act of hazrat Aisha would be deemed as rebellion against the designated ruler and thus be classified as anarchy as she did not have political power to support her claim?

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    imho, there was utter chaos after the death of Uthman (rta) - an authority was needed and hence 'Ali (rta) became Caliph. Also, in such circumstances people get led by their followers rather than be in total control of the situation - albeit Aisha (rta)'s step was not really prudent, but it is also true she may not have had full control over the situation. The end result was huge loss of life of the cream of the companions, including Zubayr (rta) and Talha (rta). In fact, Aisha (rta)'s presence in battle was symbolic as this created the impression to a large number of people that the party opposing 'Ali (rta) was in the right. And finally, when 'Ali (rta) made her camel sit down, the battle was over. It is also a moot point that had this battle not taken place, the later battle between 'Ali (rta) and Muaviya (rta) too would not have taken place.. Zubayr was the husband of Asma, Aisha's elder sister, and he and Talha (rta) were senior Companions who had fought in Badr and Uhud. Even after 'Ali, Muaviya could not have consolidated his position if they were alive at that time.

    The grudge part looks unauthenticated to me - I have been studying Islamic history practically all my life, and continue to do so.. Also, to answer your question, it does not seem rebellion - maybe an error of judgment.. The Caliphate of 'Ali (rta) was not firmly established yet - and not everyone had done bayah to him till that point. Similarly, we see later when Imam Husayn (rta) came to Kufa during Yazid's rule, that too cannot be termed rebellion..
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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    1. The assassination of Uthman (R) happened during the time of hajj, meaning it took place during the sacred months and when Companions as well as inhabitants of Medina had already departed. It was a blatant act of cowardice.
    2. Uthman (R) was old in those latter days, and yes, he was a weaker ruler than Umar (R) by his latter days. Some traditionalists consider this blasphemy, but the same 'sahih' collections attribute dreams to the Prophet (S) regarding the first 3 Caliphs drawing forth water from the well, Uthman's (S) drawing being less than compared to Abu Bakr and Umar, with Umar being the most. This brings me to point 3.
    3. Part of this weaknes is because by the end of his rule, all the elder Companions had gone and even Umar (R), prior to his death, lamented that certain Companions were gone that he would have preferred to lead the ummah. At the same time, Uthman (R) did not have the benefits of the consultation that his previous two rulers had.

    Interestingly, when Uthman (R) died, Ghannouchi quotes an incident between Hasan and his father Ali, in which he warns him to not be content in seeking bayaah just from Medina, otherwise he would be killed like his predecessor. The author makes the point that the Muslim world's opinion was no longer represented by Medina, i.e. the Muslim world had grown so large and their was wide differing opinions, the political mechanism to elect leaders had not taken this into account. Medina was no longer the representative of the Muslim world, and their were competing centers, including Kufa, Basra, and Damascus. As Muhammad Asad points out, the Muslim world had not seen and will not see a ruler like Umar ever again, and he surely can't be used as a precedent.
    Last edited by ihsan; 11th October 2011 at 16:51.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaad_lko View Post
    The grudge part looks unauthenticated to me - I have been studying Islamic history practically all my life, and continue to do so.. Also, to answer your question, it does not seem rebellion - maybe an error of judgment.. The Caliphate of 'Ali (rta) was not firmly established yet - and not everyone had done bayah to him till that point. Similarly, we see later when Imam Husayn (rta) came to Kufa during Yazid's rule, that too cannot be termed rebellion..
    Per Fazlur Rahman, frrom what I rememebr correctly, ibn Taymiyya has an interesting take on the situation contrary to the traditional opinion. This opinion is one cannot call this an error an ijtihad but a grave error, and it was due to the Companions pious deeds and help in the cause of Islam, that God-willing, caused them to be forgiven.
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

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    Manyt hanks bro ihsan for your very informative posts.Jazakallah

  6. #21
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    ibn Taymiyya's opinion is with ref. to Karbala or to the battle between Aisha and Ali ?

    i have been hearing an anecdote since ages that Aisha related after the battle, that she had heard the Prophet (sws) say that one of his wives will go to fight Ali, and she will hear barking dogs, and she would be in error. I am unclear about its authenticity - maybe she remembered it after the battle...
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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    and to add to it, I agree with Ihsan that the companions were not super-human as is often made out by tradition. For instance, Usama ibn Zayd slew a person in battle who when confronted with the sword, had uttered the Kalima of Islam. The Prophet reprimanded Usama by asking what excuse will the latter present when this Kalima confronts him on the Scale of Judgment Day.. It is obvious they had human follies and only the Prophet (sws) was guarded from sin.
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaad_lko View Post
    ibn Taymiyya's opinion is with ref. to Karbala or to the battle between Aisha and Ali ?

    i have been hearing an anecdote since ages that Aisha related after the battle, that she had heard the Prophet (sws) say that one of his wives will go to fight Ali, and she will hear barking dogs, and she would be in error. I am unclear about its authenticity - maybe she remembered it after the battle...
    That is a famous shi'a hadith, pretty absurd in it's content, as well as isnad.

    As an aside, Maulana Habib-ur-Rahman Kandhalvi has written a work in Urdu that analyzing many of the hadith quoted from sunni sources, including the two Sahihayn, that have shia influences, and he rationally critiques the hadith. It is pretty harsh in it's tone from what I have read through translation, he is pretty harsh, but his critiques are worthy. In fact, Islahi has actually praised this work and considers him one of the few great scholars. He is also among the first to criticize the history surrounding the age of Aisha (R). The work is:

    Mazhabi Dastaanain aur un kee Haqeeqat

    You can probably get easy access to it in India and you'll be surprised in a good sense.
    Last edited by ihsan; 11th October 2011 at 17:29.
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihsan View Post
    That is a famous shi'a hadith, pretty absurd in it's content, as well as isnad. Habibur Rahman Kandhlawi has written a work in Urdu that analyzing many of the hadith quoted from sunni sources that have shia influences, and he rationally critiques them. It is pretty harsh in it's tone from what I have read, and is verified by some translations. In fact, Islahi has actually praised this work and considers him one of the few great scholars. The work is:

    Mazhabi Dastaanain aur un kee Haqeeqat by Maulana Habib-ur-Rahman Kandhalvi

    You can probably get easy access to it in India...
    yes of course, when you talk of Kandhlavis and Thanvis, Kandhla and Thana Bhavan are close by...
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaad_lko View Post
    yes of course, when you talk of Kandhlavis and Thanvis, Kandhla and Thana Bhavan are close by...


    But I must warn you my Indian brother, he also doesn't spare some Deobandi beliefs, though I'm sure you'll get a chuckle out of the critiques and agree with them...
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

  11. #26
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    Iqbal too is very critical of the Deobandis, but the latter have the masses... sometimes I feel Islam is meant to be the religion of the educated, give it to a rustic molvi, and though well-intentioned, he will disfigure it.. anyhow, Deoband doesnt have Anwar Shah Kashmiri or Mahmudul Hasan anymore, their influence is on the wane in their immediate area, but of course it is much more in distant lands..
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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    Default Re: History of Islam

    How and what lead to the origin of Kharijites

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    I can not believe that in about 50 years after death of the prophet (pbuh) people killed his pious grandson who was promised Jannah thinking he was infidel! The shoe horses from the horses that were walking on the body of Hussain and his companions were sold in market since people thought it had Barikaah because it had killed infidels. People even made forged horse shoes saying it was the same that was used in Karbala!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocW View Post
    How and what lead to the origin of Kharijites
    I believe that Kharijite movement was a reaction to the strife between Ali and Muaviya - since each was claiming authority, the Kharijite solution came around that there is no authority except the Quran. They were right that there is no religious authority except the Quran, but social life always requires a modicum of organization. Once the notion of any authority at all had been abolished, there was nothing to stop them from executing or takfiring anyone who committed a sin - the ploy that the Quran is sufficient for everything gave way to their insistence on an extreme literalism. Ali opposed them for this very reason and all the Caliph's energies were drained in exterminating them while Muaviya continued to consolidate his position waiting for the inevitable. There is another interesting twist that Muaviya later on always went to the masjid with guard due to the fear of a Khariji assassination attempt -this gradually led to a distancing between the common folk and the rulers.

    On a side note, as Fazlur Rahman portrays, Ahlus Sunna wal Jamaah was a later terminology created to point towards the importance of treading the middle road, and remaining with the Jamaah. The authority which the Kharijites were protesting against, was now transferred to the consensus of the community, and Ijma became a source of law...
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocW View Post
    I can not believe that in about 50 years after death of the prophet (pbuh) people killed his pious grandson who was promised Jannah thinking he was infidel! The shoe horses from the horses that were walking on the body of Hussain and his companions were sold in market since people thought it had Barikaah because it had killed infidels. People even made forged horse shoes saying it was the same that was used in Karbala!
    This is an emotional issue but I believe its genesis can be traced back to the Persian campaign and the subsequent riches that came into Muslim hands. A great book on this is Shahaadat Husayn by Maulana Abul Kalam Azad.
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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