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Thread: Islam ands human evolution?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by MF View Post
    I can give you an error, but it doesn't depend on the interpretation of evolution (because that is not open for interpretation unlike hyd claims) but it depends on the interpretation of the creation of Adan and Eve.

    Some muslims interpret the creation of Adam in such a way that he canot have parents, in that case evolution theory conflicts with that because no matter if there is a tree or a bush of life, humans fit in there with other taxa above them, Adam and Eve had parents. And so did Jesus by the way.

    I already mentioned it at the beginning at this thread by the way so perhaps you didn't miss it.
    In my opinion it can only be percieved as an error if science can visibly prove how a male and a female human being could have been created. Science has not proven that so how can the claim of religion be proved to be an error. To disprove something you have to provide a conclusive alternative.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by DocW View Post
    In my opinion it can only be percieved as an error if science can visibly prove how a male and a female human being could have been created. Science has not proven that so how can the claim of religion be proved to be an error. To disprove something you have to provide a conclusive alternative.
    First you have to see evolution as correct (as most biologists do), if you don't then there's no conflict. The topic here is not about if evolution theory is correct but what if it is, then is it compatible?
    “The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by DocW View Post
    In my opinion it can only be percieved as an error if science can visibly prove how a male and a female human being could have been created. Science has not proven that so how can the claim of religion be proved to be an error. To disprove something you have to provide a conclusive alternative.
    You’re confusing two separate issues. Firstly, the fact of evolution is not in question within the scientific community. The myth of Adam and Eve is a creation issue which is the realm of religious dogma and religious creationism. More importantly, the myth of Adam and Eve is exclusively an Abrahamic religious tale of creation. There are many religions not connected to the Adam and Eve tale.

    Lastly, the claim that “To disprove something you have to provide a conclusive alternative” is simply the last bastion of the apologist seeking a bulwark against meeting the standard of proof that they charge science with. I don’t need a conclusive alternative to gnomes, fairies, jinn and other claims of supernatural entities to disprove their existence. With regularity, muslims will make the outlandish claim that such supernatural entities actually do exist until “disproved”. That’s ridiculous. The one making the positive assertion to a claim is responsible for supporting such claim.

    So, to put a finer point on this entire mess, I actually have disproven that Adam and Eve, jinn and other things that go bump in the night are tales of superstitious origins still embraced by the superstitious – disprove my claim.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    From what I have read and heard, Muslims are permitted to believe or disbelieve in the hypotheses of evolution, in so far as it applies to flora, fauna and microbes.

    The claim is that the creation of man is independent of the evolution of other species.

    To state that Islam is anti-evolution from those two statements does not add up.

    It seems that the debate is really over whether a supernatural being, having created a universe in which life evolves, is then incapable of adding a new species in a finished form.

    And if you have really disproved the existence of all supernatural phenomena, the scientific and philosophic communities will be delighted to learn of your proof.

    I would love to read its premises. Can you point me to a link?
    Last edited by Bill; 8th October 2011 at 15:33.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by MF View Post
    First you have to see evolution as correct (as most biologists do), if you don't then there's no conflict. The topic here is not about if evolution theory is correct but what if it is, then is it compatible?
    Video is quite clear. There is nothing against the evolution as a general mechanism for growth of life. Jesus (pbuh) birth was without a father, it may or may not have biological explanation, same with Adam and Eve (pbut).

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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    From what I have read and heard, Muslims are permitted to believe or disbelieve in the hypotheses of evolution, in so far as it applies to flora, fauna and microbes. The claim is that the creation of man is independent of the evolution of other species. To state that Islam is anti-evolution from those two statements does not add up. It seems that the debate is really over whether a supernatural being, having created a universe in which life evolves, is then incapable of adding a new species in a finished form. And if you have really disproved the existence of all supernatural phenomena, the scientific and philosophic communities will be delighted to learn of your proof. I would love to read its premises. Can you point me to a link?
    The scientific community will be delighted to hear your premises and proof that a supernatural phenomena exists? Can you point me to a link?

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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by MF View Post
    First you have to see evolution as correct (as most biologists do), if you don't then there's no conflict. The topic here is not about if evolution theory is correct but what if it is, then is it compatible?
    Interesting, we cannot really speak of proof 100% but we can speak of plausibility, certainly the weight of evidence for evolution is I would say overwhelming and any biological test one cares to make will get the same results for everyone. Is a God who creates just as plausible? In any case it would seem to me even more wonderful that God created a way for man as it were to make themselves.

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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    If that is for Resigned, just to make it clear he is not muslim. Anything doesn't fit his preconceived notions about muslims and islam from muslims, he starts to argue.
    One might say in response "If that is for Hyd, just to make it clear he is Muslim. Anything doesn't fit his preconceived notions about Muslims and Islam he starts to argue."

    In fact I have yet to meet a Muslim who will even agree he or she might be wrong - any takers?

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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
    One might say in response "If that is for Hyd, just to make it clear he is Muslim. Anything doesn't fit his preconceived notions about Muslims and Islam he starts to argue."
    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
    In fact I have yet to meet a Muslim who will even agree he or she might be wrong - any takers?
    On what? In general, to name two just on this forum, DocW and hlatif have admitted they were wrong when they were wrong.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Thank for the link, hyd.

    On a different forum, the young earth creationists seemed to be claiming that even Muslims are ordained to believe that evolutionary theory is at odds with theology.

    It is refreshing to see a counter point, that if evolution occurred, then it was because Allah was the evolver. That is quite neat.
    Actually, this was what Darwin too intended - that evolution was an explanation of God's creative laws.
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaad_lko View Post
    Actually, this was what Darwin too intended - that evolution was an explanation of God's creative laws.
    False! You're just making that up.

    For you edification, Origin of Species accomplished two very different things.

    First:, it demonstrated through a comprehensive compilation of scientific detail the historical fact of evolution (keep in mind the difference between facts and the theories that explain them). Using fields as diverse as comparative anatomy, selective breeding, biogeography and animal behavior, Darwin laid out the factual case that descent with modification (evolution) had actually occurred.

    His evidence was so overwhelming that almost every major biologist of his day became convinced within the decade that evolution (the fact) was true.

    Secondly, it proposed a theory for explaining this fact; "Natural Selection." Natural Selection makes no requirements for gods and negates coincidence completely. Evolution instead proposes the objective criterion of "reproductive fitness" as the engine for driving biological change.

    What many people (especially creationists) do not understand is that during Darwin's lifetime, the scientific community only grudgingly accepted his theory, although they were convinced by his book that the fact of evolution was true. It was only long afterwards that his basic theory was combined with new discoveries in population genetics to convince biologists that Natural Selection does absolutely the best job of explaining the facts. The hallmark of the scientific process is that it then takes such theories, and tests them ruthlessly. Exceeding Darwin's own hopes, the intensive pressure testing that continues even now, a century and a half after the first publication, has only strengthened the support for Darwin's theory.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    for Darwin, Natural Selection was a means of explaining God's ways... It was later usurped by the psuedo-scientists like ....
    Nine things the Lord has commanded me: Fear of God in private and in public; Justness, whether in anger or in calmness; Moderation in both poverty and affluence; That I should join hands with those who break away from me; And give to those who deprive me; And forgive those who wrong me; And that my silence should be meditation; And my words remembrance of God; And my vision keen observation.- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaad_lko View Post
    for Darwin, Natural Selection was a means of explaining God's ways... It was later usurped by the psuedo-scientists like ....
    False, still.

    Repeating a falsehood does not lessen the falsehood.

    In furtherance of ny earlier comments, It does us well to remember that Darwin was not operating in an intellectual vacuum regarding an old earth and an awakening scientific discovery of evolution. The prevailing scientific viewpoint was that the earth was extremely old by the 1800s, which was at odds with a literal interpretation of hoily texts.

    Natural selection was never a way of explaining any gods. The theory explained common descent and fitness for survival.

    That may be unacceptable for you and the Harun Yahya groupies, but then, Harun Yahya steals ruthlessly from the creationist types and panders to the religiously/emotionally gullible.

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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    On what? In general, to name two just on this forum, DocW and hlatif have admitted they were wrong when they were wrong.
    Sorry, I was not very clear was I? I meant is there a Muslim who will enter into discussion and agree they might be totally wrong about Islam, enter the discussionnwith an open mind?

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    Default Re: Islam ands human evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaad_lko View Post
    for Darwin, Natural Selection was a means of explaining God's ways... It was later usurped by the psuedo-scientists like ....
    I have never heard this before, where does Darwin say this? Who are these pseudo-scientists, do you mean creationists?

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