LIFE BEYOND

[noori]

salam every one ,

AFTER LIFE is a concept shared by many different religion .
whether u are muslim , jew ,christian or hindu all belief that there is after life and after a person die his soul is taken away ...DEATH is reality of life which we cannot escape no matter what culture, color, creed we belong to ...but what is the belief that people hold about it ...

altough all believe in after life there is DIFFERENCES
f.eg muslims belief in ressurection ...that we will be raised back to life and whole new world will be established there will be accountabilty of actions we did in our past life...(this present world)

hindus....belief that after a person dies there is another life ,he can come back again in new form in new body ..sort of soul is recycled and this is called (dusra janam)
buddhist almost have the same concept of soul coming back ..or reincarnation and so does christains

It is interesting to observe that this concepts effects our out look of life & behavior
for example lets say if there is NO CONCEPT OF ACCOUNTABILITY person is free to do what ever he wish and has no fear of being punished or asked about his deeds .. f.eg if there is no law in country no one hold the criminal accountable so there will be more roberies, crime of social nature will increase, rape, smuggling etc.. islam emphasize on PERSON RESPONSIBILITY that each soul has to be answerable to god

if we look at the egyptians ..they built pyramids and burried mummies there with all the furniture and stuff ? why
they hold this belief about after life that once a person is dead he will move to next life but in that life he will need all the necessary stuff to go on ...like furniture , utencils etc...

how many do really think of after life that what is beyond ?? and what do we know about the concept of resurrection and reincarnation ?

in quran ALLAH SAYS "BASHIRUN WA NAZIRUN "
that prophet was send to give u glad tiding or warning ...so this warning or glad tiding has to do with our FUTURE life and life beyond this world.
but allah also said that those who are righteous will recieve GLAD TIDING here in this world ...many sahabah's in the past KNEW what their destiny was ...some were given glad tiding or BISHARAT of after life or life beyond .
like Abdullah ibn salam, Aysha bint abu bakar , Salam farsi and many others

[Vajradhara]

Salaam Noori,

thank you for the post.

Actually, the Buddha Dharma does not have a concept of reincarnation or ressurrection. these concepts all rely upon a soul or self to be reincarnated or ressurrected. the Buddha Dharma does not teach a soul or self that exists.

in the formulations of the traditions, these two terms are called, respectively, Atman and An-Atman, which mean, amongst other things, Self and Not-Self.

just so you know... the term "hindu" is a British term made up to describe all the religious traditions of India (Christians, Muslims, Buddha Dharma, Jain, Sanatana Dharma et al). as such, "hindu" doesn't really describe all that much. in the modern day, however, we see the Sanatana Dharma adherents adopting the name "hindu" for themselves, essentially, take a derogatory term and changing its meaning.

personally, i think about death and my own impending one, on a daily basis. in my particular school of Buddha Dharma, this transition is one of the single most important transistions that our consciousness undergoes and thus, we rather emphasize the practice of the "Between States" or Bardos, as we call them.

[noori]

thanks for your reply ,

May be i can learn something from u that i don't know ...
so the concept u are talking about "bardos" or between state ..is what we call "barzak" state that is after death and before day of judgement ..(if i am right in my guesssing)

so buddhist have concept of 'accountability" ..what is the concept that u have learened about after life ?
and what is our role in life towards others according to buddhist teachings
and what is the the concept of GOD ...?

i have read about it ..but it is different when u be able to know from some who practice .

[Vajradhara]

Salaam Noori,

thank you for the post.

thanks for your reply ,

May be i can learn something from u that i don't know ...

as i learn from you a good relationship, in my view

so the concept u are talking about "bardos" or between state ..is what we call "barzak" state that is after death and before day of judgement ..(if i am right in my guesssing)

mostly, yes. we don't have the idea of a judgement day though. when we are talking about between states, what we are really talking about is the almost unnoticed moment when one thought stops and before the next thought begins. so, in our view, what happens during death is the same process that happens during all the other "bardos" or inbetween states, with some differences, of course.

so buddhist have concept of 'accountability" ..what is the concept that u have learened about after life ?

oh, very much so. this is one area where Buddha Dharma and Islam have alot in common. we are the doers of our deeds and we, alone, reap the consequences thereof. in the Buddha Dharma this concept is called "karma" which, for lack of a better explanation, is the Law of Moral Consequences, in our view.

regarding the life after this one... well... it depends a bit. for clarifications sake, there are three Buddhist Vehicles or Sects, if you will and they do disagree on some of the details with each other. my practice is the Vajrayana within the context of the Mahayana. not that you need to know this, but it does help with clarification and so forth.

in any event, in our teachings, when a being has expended the karmic energy that caused this rebirth to happen, they die and, depending on their deeds during this life, take rebirth according to their karmic seeds. for example, if a being is extraordinarly malevolent, they will tend to take a negative rebirth, perhaps even in a hell realm. if a being practicies patience, generosity, virtue and other "postive" qualities, then upon death, the being will take rebirth in a postive realm... hopefully, a human one. the human rebirth is considered to be the "best" one because humans can experience both joy and bliss and pain and sorrow. the pain and sorrow spur us to practice and the experience of joy and bliss encourage our practice.

generally speaking, Buddhists have a view that has 6 levels of rebirth, the three "postive" rebirths are: pleasure god, demi god and human (with human actually being the "best" of all rebirths) and three negative rebirths: animal/insect, hungry ghost or hell.

and what is our role in life towards others according to buddhist teachings
and what is the the concept of GOD ...?

it depends a bit on whom you ask. generally speaking, the role of humans in particular is to be of benefit to others. specifically, to help beings that are suffering to alleviate their suffering in which ever way is most appropriate for them. this is part of the practice of the Wisdom aspects of our tradition. we tend to emphasize both Wisdom and Compassion and the perfect union of the two is what we are trying to cultivate.

regarding God... it's a bit of a tricky thing. in a very technical sense, you'd have to describe a bit of God before i could really answer our views about it, since they vary. for instance, despite the common belief, there are, in fact, Gods in Buddhism, we are not atheists in the strict definition of the term.

Gotama Shakyamuni, the historical Buddha, gave three different replies when the question was put to him regarding a Creator God, depending on the person that was asking. in one case, which is often the most cited, the Buddha simply didn't answer the question. in another, he answered the question by stating that speculation on first causes wasn't condusive to the spiritual life. the third reply was not in response to a direct query, rather, it is recounted during the Buddhas explanation of the Creation account of the Vedas.

the Buddhas response is not a philosophical objection to a particular God notion, rather, the Buddhist understanding is rooted in a radically different ontological basis than a world view that posits a Creator Deity. the Buddhist view is one of continual becoming, what we term Interdependent Co-Arising, which does not support the notion of a primal "First Cause".

i have read about it ..but it is different when u be able to know from some who practice .

i agree completely. this is one of the reasons why i visit this forum. it's one thing to read Al Qur'an for myself... it is another thing altogether to hear it explained by people that actually practice the tradition.

[muhtadiyah]

Greetings all,

Here is an interesting link that deals with this topic:

www.nderf.org

If you look, there are stories from many different nationalities and religious backgrounds, including muslim and hindu. Although, now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever seen one from a buddist. I find it facsinating.

peace,
muhtadiyah

[noori]

[QUOTE=muhtadiyah]Greetings all,

Here is an interesting link that deals with this topic:[Q]

www.nderf.org

If you look, there are stories from many different nationalities and religious backgrounds, including muslim and hindu. Although, now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever seen one from a buddist. I find it facsinating.

peace,
muhtadiyah

THANKS MUTADIYAH FOR YOUR REPLY

[noori]

vajradhara,

thanks for your reply and explaining your point of view ..
i do understand the concept of karma and moral consequences ...
u are right there are similarities ...

concept of positive and negative realm that u have mentioned is then heaven and hell ...or rebirth

our concept of GOD is that HE IS ONE , He has no son or daughter like humans ..he is above such needs that human have ..every thing in universe is create by GOD .. behind every creation there is a creator ...
f.eg car cannot exist by itself if some one has not created it ...
lets take an example of leaf ..if some one ask us to create a leaf from scratch we cannot do that ...examine it carefully and see that every cell in leaf is arranged in perfect order and to perform function ... human body itself is like universe with in .... cell dividing and multiplying ,creating life every moment ....there is a creator behind all this and he has breathed his spirit in us ... due to this spirit we crave to know HIM and worship him .. it is innate in our nature ,human have been worshipping god since the begining of time ..in their own way....

i didn't quite understand your answer about god please clearify it ...if it is not trouble for u ...

thanks ,
take care

[Vajradhara]

Salaam noori,

thank you for the post.

thanks for your reply and explaining your point of view ..
i do understand the concept of karma and moral consequences ...
u are right there are similarities ...

indeed, there are. it is my goal, on forums such as this, to generally try to find the commonalities between our traditions. it seems to me that there are plenty of folks that are trying to find the differences and ways to divide people. i've little interest in that.

our concept of GOD is that HE IS ONE , He has no son or daughter like humans ..he is above such needs that human have ..every thing in universe is create by GOD .. behind every creation there is a creator ...
f.eg car cannot exist by itself if some one has not created it ...
lets take an example of leaf ..if some one ask us to create a leaf from scratch we cannot do that ...examine it carefully and see that every cell in leaf is arranged in perfect order and to perform function ... human body itself is like universe with in .... cell dividing and multiplying ,creating life every moment ....there is a creator behind all this and he has breathed his spirit in us ... due to this spirit we crave to know HIM and worship him .. it is innate in our nature ,human have been worshipping god since the begining of time ..in their own way....

i didn't quite understand your answer about god please clearify it ...if it is not trouble for u ...

thanks ,
take care

basically, it is our world view is that is different and this different world view leads to a completely different system of religion. i've posted a bit about the difference in our world views, i'll post it again here, for reference and, i hope, it will answer a few of your questions.

i'd like to offer a bit of text from Joseph Campbells' the Masks of God (available at all fine book stores)

the extent to which the mythologies-and therewith psychologies- of the Orient and Occident diverged in the course of the period between the dawn of civilization in the Near East and the present age of mutal rediscovery appears in their opposed version of the shared mythological image of the first being, who was originally one but became two.

the best known Occidental example of this image of the first being, split in two, which seem to be two but are actually one, is, for course, that of the Book of Genesis, second chapter, where it is turned, however, to a different sense. For the couple is spearated here by a superior being, who, as we are told, caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man and, while he slept, took one of his ribs.

in the Indian version it is the god himself that divides and becomes not man alone but all creation; so that everything is a manifestation of that single inhabiting divine substance: there is no other; whereas in the Bible, God and man, from the beginning, are distinct. Man is made in the image of God, indeed, and the breath of God has been breathed into his nostrils; yet his being, his self, is not that of God, nor is it one with the universe. The fashioning of the world, of animals, and of Adam (who then became Adam and Eve) was accomplished not within the sphere of divinity but outside of it.

there is, consequently, an intrinsic, not merely formal, separation. and the goal of knowledge cannot be to see God here and now in all things; for God is not in things. God is transcendent. God is beheld only by the dead. the goal of knowledge has to be, rather, to know the relationship of God to His creation, or, more specifically, to man, and through such knowledge, by God's grace, to link one's own will back to that of the Creator.

moreover, according to the Biblical version of this myth, it was only after creation that man fell, whereas in the Indian example creation itself was a fall - the fragmentation of a God. and the God is not condemned. Rather, his creation, his "pouring forth" is described as an act of voluntary, dynamic will-to-be-more, which anteceded creation and has, therefore, a metaphysical, symbolical, not literal, historical meaning. the fall of Adam and Eve was an event within the already created frame of time and space, an accident that should not have taken place. the myth of the Self in the form of a man, on the other hand, who looked around and saw nothing but himself, and said "I", felt fear, and then desired to be two, tells of an intrinsic, not errant, factor in the manifold of being, the correction or undoing of which would not improve, but dissolve, creation. the Indian point of view is metaphyscial, poetical; the Biblical, ethical and historical.

Adam's fall and exile from the garden was thus in no sense a metaphysical departure of divine substance from itself, but an event only in the history, or pre-history, of man. this event in the created world has been followed throughout the remaindeer of the book by the record of man's linkage and failures of linkage back to God - again, historically conceived. for, as we next hear, God himself, at a certain point in the course of time, out of his own violition, moved toward man, instituting a new law in the form of a covenant with a certain people. these became, therewith, a priestly race, unique in the world. God's reconciliation with man, of whose creation he had repented (Gen 6:6) was to be achieved only by virtue of this particular community - in time: for in time there should take place the realization of the Lord God's kingdom on earth, when the heathen monarchies would crumble and Israel would be saved, when men would "cast forth their idols of silver and their idols of gold, which they made to themselves to worship, to the moles and to the bats."

in the Indian view, on the contrary, what is divine here is divine there also; nor has anyone to wait - or even to hope - for a "day of the Lord." for what has been lost is in each his very self (atman), here and now, requiring only to be sought. Or, as they say: "only when men shall roll up space like a piece of leather will there be an end of sorrow apart from knowing God."

the question arises (again historical) in the world dominated by the Bible, as to the identity of the favored community, and three are well known to have developed claims: the Jewish, the Christian and the Muslim, each supposing itself to have been authorized by a particular revelation. God, that is to say, though conceived as outside of history and not himself its substance (transcendent: not immanent), is supposed to have engaged himself miraculously in the enterprise of restoring fallen man through a covenant, a sacrament, or a revealed book, with a view to a general, communal experience of fulfillment yet to come. the world is corrupt and man a sinner; the individual, however, through engagement along with God in the destiny of the only authorized community, participates in the coming glory of the kingdom of righteousness, when the "glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together." (Ish 40:5)

in the experience of India, on the other hand, although the holy mystery and power have been understood to be indeed transcendent, they are also, at the same time, immanent. it's not that the divine is everywhere: it is that the divine is everything. so that one does not require any outside reference, revelation, sacrament, or authorized community to return to it. one has but to recognized (re-cognize) what is within. deprived of this recognition, we are removed from our own reality by a cerebral shortsightedness which is called in Sanskrit "maya", "delusion".

Maya is from the root verb "ma" - to measure, measure out, to form, to build - denoting, in the first place, the power of a god or demon to produce illusory effects, to change form, and to appear under deceiving masks; in the second place, "magic", the production of illusions and, in warfare, camoflage, deceptive tactics; and finally, in the philosophical discourse, the illusion superimposed upon reality as an effect of ignorance).

instead of the Biblical exile from a geographically, historically conceived garden wherein God walks in the cool of the day (Gen 3:8), we have in India, therefore, already circa 700 BCE (some three hundred years before the putting together of the Pentateuch), a psychological reading of the great theme.

the shared myth of the primal androgyne is applied in the two traditions to the same task - the exposition of man's distance, in his normal secular life, from the divine Alpha and Omega. yet the arguments radically differ, and therefore support two radically different civilizations. for, if man has been removed from the divine through an historical event, it will be an historical event that leads him back, whereas, if it has been by some sort of psychological displacement that he has been blocked, psychology will be his vehicle of return. and so it is that in India the final focus of concern is not the community (though the holy community playes a large part), but yoga.

the Indian term "yoga" is dervied from the Sanskrit root verb "yuj" - to link, join or unite - which is related etymologically to "yoke" - a yoke of oxen, and in this sense analgous to the word "religion" (Latin - re-ligio) - to link back or bind. man, the creature, is by religion bound back to God. however, religion, religio, refers to a linking historically conditioned by way of a covenant, sacrament or revealed book, whereas yoga is the psychological linking of the mind to that superordinated principle "by which the mind knows" (Up Kena). furthermore, in yoga what is linked is finally the self to itself, consciousness to consciousness; for what had seemed, through maya, to be two are in reality not so; whereas in religion what are linked are God and man, which are not the same.

[noori]

humm, it is interseting how words can be different but the message is same ...

what u have mentioned above about adam and eve which seems to be two are actually one ...is mentioned in quran in such words
"OH MANKIND BE MINDFUL OF YOUR GOD WHO HAS CREAETED YOU FROM SINGLE SOUL (ADAM) AND FROM HIM CREATED YOUR WIFE....

EVE was created from adam , we do not hold the view that she was created from rib of adam it is a biblical version but yes ..they were not two but one created from each other ...as if ..there is a glass of red color and it contains water ...if we pour half of the water in another glass of green colour ...the only difference is their outer form but what is with in remains the same ...they are different yet same with in ... two yet one ..spilit from same source..

when god created adam & breathed his spirit ...also a muslim view..
it is due to this DEVINE spirit brethed in every human body that craves to know GOD and when those who search that with in and find a way to know god through their heart and soul ...they are no longer seperated from god .we can not know the nature of god but we can sense his love and mercy through our spirit and soul ..b/c we all have his spirit with in us ... (our relation ship with god)

to understand GOD is not our goal i agree b/c our undertanding is limited ..f.eg water from jug cannot be poured in glass ..it will not be able to contain it but from jug it can be poured in glass ...our capacity to underand GOD is like of glass ..which can only contain certain amount ...well god is ETERNAL, LIMITLESS AND BEYOND OUR COMPREHENSION

You have also talked about "favoured community claiming to have authority " and given books ... true ...but god can choose any one he wish ...every one is created by HIM , he always send messangers when people lost their path to bring them back to GOD ..THESE MESSANGERS CAN BE IN ANY COMMUNITY ,ANY COUNTRY ,SPEAKING ANY LANGUAGE WHERE EVER GOD SEE THAT SUCH MESSANGERS ARE NEEDED TO BRING PEOPLE BACK TO HIS PATH.. it is his mercy that he show through revelation .. but people BOAST about being choosen nation or prefered or choosen people ...do u think god will favour , when he has created whole humaity....and they are lost thinking we are right and others are wrong ..

PURPOSE of holy books is to bring people back to GOD .. in every faith there is spiritual path ..which leads them back to their ORIGIN back to god ..like u said 'LINKING BACK TO GOD" .. BUT MANY ARE JUST LOST IN RITUALS and never search with in their soul and heart to find that reality ..that is with in us ...our connection with god so we are no longer seperated from HIM ..

again .. .. i think it is good to discuss b/c it open the door of understanding , we should look with the compassion towards others as god has encouraged us to ..since every one is from him ..we should be able to see unity .

[Vajradhara]

Namaste noori,

thank you for the post.

EVE was created from adam , we do not hold the view that she was created from rib of adam it is a biblical version but yes ..they were not two but one created from each other ...as if ..there is a glass of red color and it contains water ...if we pour half of the water in another glass of green colour ...the only difference is their outer form but what is with in remains the same ...they are different yet same with in ... two yet one ..spilit from same source..

this is the essence of the meaning of my greeting, "namaste". it's an ancient Nepali greeting which can be transliterated as:

i bow to the divine in you. when you are in that place in you and i am in that place in me, there is but one of us.

You have also talked about "favoured community claiming to have authority " and given books ... true ...but god can choose any one he wish ...every one is created by HIM , he always send messangers when people lost their path to bring them back to GOD ..THESE MESSANGERS CAN BE IN ANY COMMUNITY ,ANY COUNTRY ,SPEAKING ANY LANGUAGE WHERE EVER GOD SEE THAT SUCH MESSANGERS ARE NEEDED TO BRING PEOPLE BACK TO HIS PATH.. it is his mercy that he show through revelation .. but people BOAST about being choosen nation or prefered or choosen people ...do u think god will favour , when he has created whole humaity....and they are lost thinking we are right and others are wrong ..

agreed. at this moment in history, however, i'm only aware of a few religions that view themselves in this manner, the three Semetic traditions and a few less popular and less well known traditions, a bit beyond the scope of our conversation here.

i'm not a big fan of using individual humans as an evaluation of a religious path. it seems that for most of us, actually adhering and living up to what our various religious founder taught can be quite a challenging endeavor.

PURPOSE of holy books is to bring people back to GOD .. in every faith there is spiritual path ..which leads them back to their ORIGIN back to god ..like u said 'LINKING BACK TO GOD" .. BUT MANY ARE JUST LOST IN RITUALS and never search with in their soul and heart to find that reality ..that is with in us ...our connection with god so we are no longer seperated from HIM ..

well.. i generally agree with your sentiment here, though there are a few religious paths that do not have a concept of a Creator, Buddhism being one of them. perhaps even the largest of them, though that hardly matters, in my view.

again .. .. i think it is good to discuss b/c it open the door of understanding , we should look with the compassion towards others as god has encouraged us to ..since every one is from him ..we should be able to see unity .

agreed.