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Thread: God and religion

  1. #1
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    Default God and religion

    So what is the point of religion anyway?

    Religion is not about angering or pleasing some deity, who may or may not exist in some after life.

    So religion is not about praying a certain way, or eating a certain way.

    Its about how you live your life towards those around you. Its about good people and bad people.

    God sees no value in halal food, kosher food or going to mass every Sunday.

  2. #2
    Administrator Ratatosk's Avatar
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    Default Re: God and religion

    Peace Algebra,

    That is rather a general question, with neither set boundaries nor scope, so I guess any type of answer will suffice.

    You might be aware there exists no definition for religion, nor are all religions based on a theistic faith. Further, if you want to find the 'smallest common denominator'--that which is true for all religious people--you will end up with quite the short pamphlet. Not to put too fine a point on it, if you set off on such an endeavour you will probably end up with something eerily similar to the Human Rights Declaration.

    What, then, is the reason for maintaining a religious view, if a secular and profoundly atheistic world view will give a person the same moral and ethical framework?

    From my vantage point such a query might produce a more fruitful discourse than asserting what God sees or does not see, I trust you agree.

    Not only that; your last assertion in your post excludes many world views. Religion does certainly not mean "Christianity, Judaism, or Islam".

    Regards,
    think

  3. #3
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    Default Re: God and religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratatosk View Post
    You might be aware there exists no definition for religion, nor are all religions based on a theistic faith. Further, if you want to find the 'smallest common denominator'--that which is true for all religious people--you will end up with quite the short pamphlet.
    But that is my point, the only way for something to be "TRUE" is for it to be true for all people in all circumstances.

    Thus the golden rule is TRUE.

    God exists, is not TRUE

    Allah exists, is not TRUE

    Jesus is my personal saviour is not TRUE

    Mohammed is a messenger of Allah, is not TRUE.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, if you set off on such an endeavour you will probably end up with something eerily similar to the Human Rights Declaration.
    Which is probably where the only TRUTH really lies anyway.

    What, then, is the reason for maintaining a religious view, if a secular and profoundly atheistic world view will give a person the same moral and ethical framework?
    I cannot think of a good reason, but I am open to ideas why anyone would maintain a religious view beyond this ethical framework

    From my vantage point such a query might produce a more fruitful discourse than asserting what God sees or does not see, I trust you agree.
    Yes I agree

    Not only that; your last assertion in your post excludes many world views. Religion does certainly not mean "Christianity, Judaism, or Islam".

    Regards,[/FONT]
    My bad, but i wasn't intentionally leaving out other world views.

    Views that I would point out, better reflect my own personal views than any of the "theistic" traditions.

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    Default Re: God and religion

    Having responded to that post, my original assertion was simply that the patriarchs of the theistic traditions were simply fitting these basic "Truths" (those defined in the Human rights charter), that is true for every single human into the cultural and religious traditions that were already prevalent in their locales.

    What I am therefore saying, albeit poorly, is that religious people today may have missed the point their patriarchs were making in the first place, whether they are jews, christians or muslims.

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    Default Re: God and religion

    To prove this, I am going to review scriptures of all three of these faiths.

    The purpose of the review is to independently conclude if their teachings were simply to enforce a human rights charter.

    For a long time now, I have suspected that there was absolutely no "revelation" taking place.

    Did they lie about revelation? I suspect they did, all of them.

    But perhaps they had to, to achieve the greater goal of harmonious society.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: God and religion

    Show me one thing in any of those religions, that is truer than this document.

    The Truth and inherent beauty in this document supercedes anything i can find in the bible or quran.

    PREAMBLE

    Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

    Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

    Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

    Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

    Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

    Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

    Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

    Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.



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    Article 1.

    * All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

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    Article 2.

    * Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

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    Article 3.

    * Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

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    Article 4.

    * No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

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    Article 5.

    * No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

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    Article 6.

    * Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

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    Article 7.

    * All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

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    Article 8.

    * Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

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    Article 9.

    * No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

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    Article 10.

    * Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

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    Article 11.

    * (1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
    * (2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

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    Article 12.

    * No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

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    Article 13.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
    * (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

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    Article 14.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
    * (2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

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    Article 15.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
    * (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

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    Article 16.

    * (1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
    * (2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
    * (3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

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    Article 17.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
    * (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

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    Article 18.

    * Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

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    Article 19.

    * Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

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    Article 20.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
    * (2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

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    Article 21.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
    * (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
    * (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

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    Article 22.

    * Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

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    Article 23.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
    * (2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
    * (3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
    * (4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

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    Article 24.

    * Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

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    Article 25.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
    * (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

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    Article 26.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
    * (2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
    * (3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

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    Article 27.

    * (1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
    * (2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

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    Article 28.

    * Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

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    Article 29.

    * (1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
    * (2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
    * (3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

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    Article 30.

    * Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

  7. #7
    Administrator Ratatosk's Avatar
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    Default Re: God and religion

    Greetings in peace, Algebra.
    Quote Originally Posted by Algebra View Post
    [The] only way for something to be "TRUE" is for it to be true [...] in all circumstances.
    Okay, fine. What you seem to be referring to is absolute truth, ie. an assertion which is true regardless. You seem to then proceed in an unrelated direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Algebra View Post
    Thus the golden rule is TRUE.
    The Golden Rule, ie. 'do unto others', is no more "true" than any other general rule. It is merely an adopted modus, or then it is not. It is not inherently true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Algebra View Post
    God [...] Allah exists, is not TRUE
    To prove a negative is, as you most probably are aware, not possible. Thus your assertion must be able to stand on its own merits, and neither by fiat nor other considerations. After such validation you will notice the assertion belongs to the set of unproven axioms; it has no value in and of itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Algebra View Post
    Jesus is my personal saviour is not TRUE
    This assertion is merely a confession on your part, it is not a universal rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Algebra View Post
    Mohammed is a messenger of Allah, is not TRUE.
    Referring to the impossibility of proving a negative, this is yet again another example of a stated axiom. It has no value outside your own frame of reference.


    I don't want to rain on your parade, Algebra, but you are making dialogue unreasonably difficult by maintaining some stances that are--for wont of a better word--rather irrational. You may not be cognizant of them, or then you have simply chosen to ignore them, but they make maintaining discourse with you inordinately challenging.

    At times you seem to be aware of the differences betwixt proof and evidence, at other times you are very laissez faire about them. At other times you can effectively negate your own line of reasoning, thereby presenting a rather confusing case. I would love to converse with you, but many a time you make it an uphill effort by your often disorienting narrative.

    Regards,
    think

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