Shi'i `Ilm al-Rijal

[lumumba_s]

As salamu `alaykum,

Hannahh: Since you obviously reject the veracity of the hadith methodology that the Sunni hadith scholars have developed, could you summarize or at least give a glimpse into the methodology of hadith authentication that the Shi'i scholars whom you follow employ?

[lumumba_s]

Do you not know the answer to my question or are you ignoring me for one reason or another?

[Hannahh]

Actually I didn't see your question. Since you have answered it yourself however I see no reason really to debate with you regarding matters in which you feel I do not "believe" what you believe.

Don't you agree?


My best advice: study your branch of logic first and discover the manner in which rhetorics plays a serious role in hammering out the details of various religious issues you seem to find fascinating in your first few years of being a muslim Lumumba.

Peace

[lumumba_s]

I wasn't looking for a debate and I apologize for assuming you were ignoring me.

As to the matter of this thread, you were the one who brought up your "lack of confidence" in Sunni hadith authentication and alluded to the superiority of the authentication methods of Shi'i scholars. You would not elaborate in the other thread, and since I was not the a key participant in that discussion, I did not want to press the issue there. I was just hoping for more than a mere allusion.

Mantiq has nothing to do with the fascination that I have with anything. If you are going to start out your replies with diversion and continue your typical impugning of deception to my innocent inquiries, then never mind my question.

[Al-Boriqi]

Actually I didn't see your question. Since you have answered it yourself however I see no reason really to debate with you regarding matters in which you feel I do not "believe" what you believe.

Don't you agree?


My best advice: study your branch of logic first and discover the manner in which rhetorics plays a serious role in hammering out the details of various religious issues you seem to find fascinating in your first few years of being a muslim Lumumba.

Peace

why can't you just list your mustalah of ilmu-riwaaya. forget about studying anything, if people asked you to explain your faith in a matter, can;t you at least educate them on that.

[Hannahh]

You know Lumumba, I didn't start this topic nor did I ask you to. Therefore, your tactics on this one are a form of...er...I don't know what but if it were me, I'd just put my head back in the sand and pretend no one noticed.

[Al-Boriqi]

You know Lumumba, I didn't start this topic nor did I ask you to. Therefore, your tactics on this one are a form of...er...I don't know what but if it were me, I'd just put my head back in the sand and pretend no one noticed.

stop the cowardice. most of creation, when they are asked for some information regarding a matter, they will answer. You, on the other hand, seam to fall outside this normal fitrah. Is something wrong with you providing us with ilmul-mustalah according to the shia. is there something you don't want us to know, like the rest of your aqa'id. Do we have to spill the beans for you

[Hannahh]

You can do what you like and for that matter, you can do it with Lumumba.

[lumumba_s]

Its okay Hannahh, there is a book that was referred to me by one of my teachers written by a devoted Shi'a author that I assume addresses the issue.

[Hannahh]

Then you should specifically cite that in your question rather than assume something about me that you do not know about.

Maybe one day you will understand the importance of a question Lumumba and maybe others will follow suit.

I repeat, a question says much more about you than you think and very little about the person who is being asked. It's your misconception and in that, your arrogance that matters more than any thing I could offer you in return (as if you really were interested).

Suffice it to say however that I realize you are on what we call in English, "a learning curve". I've been there and I"ve also made all the mistakes you make. I try not to make them anymore.

[Al-Boriqi]

okay. im sorry hannah.

question:
i wish to know the criteria laid down by shi'a sources with regard to mustalah al-hadeeth


:coolbro:

[Hannahh]

Do you really? May Allah forgive me then. I don't know what you want and if you want it then perhaps you should find it in someone who has it then.

It wouldn't be me.

I will say this to both of you however....if it was the case that you knew what it is I know about and then rejected it, I'd be pleased. But seeing as how you both are filled with so many unanswered questions all the time I must say to myself and to you: you don't know about it and therefore your rejection of it isn't in my hands nor should you say anything about what it is you "say" I know, believe, advocate or on what basis my opinions are formed. Fact of the matter is, you don't or you wouldn't be so contentious with me. Fact of the matter is, you assume about me what I do not assume about you nor would I.

Peace

[lumumba_s]

You don't know what I want? I don't think I could have asked the question any clearer. You have a knack for refusing to answer simple, straight-forward factual questions and then turning it into a flaw of the questioner.

[Hannahh]

Is that so? I accept that but in the end you seem not to accept that I am telling you the truth. According to your question, I don't even know what it is you want. The question indicates you desire proof of my own error.

So, fine by me but I think it is better for you to describe what this error is in your estimation so then I might be able to address your concern with "my" error.

In the end however, it usually isn't a recommended thing for a person to be overly concerned with another's error unless of course they feel such deep concern for that person and hope to avert from them some form of evil.

So what is it with you two? Describe your fear for me and then we can focus on what it is you think I know (but don't) and what it is you say you know (and possibly do).

What is the name of this book you are asking about? There are thousands of them you know which describe any number of things "Shia" and I know for a fact, I know little about them and even if I did, it wouldn't change my mind. That is the crux of certitude Lumumba. It isn't "something else" regardless of how hard you wish it was. And it has absolutely nothing to do with how many books one reads, now many disciplines they have mastered or anything of the sort.

You as a "Sufi" with Sunni tendencies or a Sunni with Sufi characteristics (take your pick) reject what I say about my own gnosis and really....at the end of the day no one can argue on those grounds. One who does is simply put, a fool.

To be very, very honest with you Lumumba, I don't even think you know what you were asking in the first place other than what I have stated. If you did, you would have formulated an actual thesis statement other than the one you have formulated above in a series of confusing posts which contain a variety of apologies and non specific references to Allah only knows what.

Try doing that (formulate a hypothesis better than the one you started with) and maybe I can obtain for you an answer.

"Since you obviously reject the methodology" of something isn't a thesis statement Lumumba. Neither is " your typical impugning of deception to my innocent inquiries". It is a statement about what you believe and nothing more than that. It indicates that you believe you know me better than I know myself. It also demonstrates your own urge to be declared innocent of all assumptions which is not the case at all, is it? If it is actually meant "what do you employ" as a means for authentication of "our story" then all I would have to say to you is to quote the Quran itself:

"What is there after Truth but error?" In other words brother, Truth is not a multiple choice question. Proof of it is provided throughout the Quran for those with the ability to understand it, for those with purity of intention and for those in whom Allah has instilled knowledge which is not dependent on anything verifiable between persons except those things which two believers share and KNOW it. Those who do not share in that will envy that relationship until the end of time and in that, envy will destroy all the good things a person hopes to obtain for themself.

[Hannahh]

Let me help you out a little using what scant information you have eluded to.

You say: As a Shia, I (as in me) reject Sunni methodology.

I say: How did you arrive at that assumption?

You might say, for instance: Because you ARE a Shia.

I would say: Yes I am and you are not a Shia and therefore your assumption is equally faulty because it is based on the first flaw and that would be that there are "no" sects in Islam or rather, there is one primary sect and "all the rest" (one of which you are fond of yourself i.e. Sufism).

You might say then: ?

I'd say: Exactly. The argument is circular and of no particular value to either party. What IS of value is the actual argument itself and is reflected in Ali ibn Abi Taleb's (pbuh) statement that when it comes to differentiating truth from error, go to the source of the argument itself and do not rely on any interpreter including him. He was never the one to force anyone to understand that except to remind them of their eventual return to Allah and consistent reminders like that run throughout his personal papers. His letters to Muwaiya (whom many Sunni muslims praise) were to invite him back into the fold of Islam.

You'd say: Some other sort of thing about methodology and how methodology can prove something to an individual.

I'd say: Methodology is in the eye of the beholder because part of methodology is actual gnosis. No one can predict the outcome of gnosis really and no one really can prove it exists either in themself or in others except in very rare cases. Some of those cases exist in the stories of the Imams and I imagine that you are possibly referring to "biography" as a means of arriving at that complex set of knowledges. However, I would have to conclude (because I have faith in each and every muslim) that you would read that and arrive at the best conclusion and if that conclusion was different from my own then...well. What can I say?

I'd say we believe in two separate types of things entirely. It is the logical conclusion of such an argument and there is no blame on a person if they feel that their own certainty of something is greater than another's certainty IF and only if that person actually states it openly "I'm certain of this."

Certainty involves a great deal of risk and no one should endeavor about it except those who really, really know what the original argument was about in the first place. It is also quite helpful if they understand reality as it is now in terms of how that reality was predicted "about" in the past. And they are sure of it.

How else do you think people like Ahmedinijad and Nasrallah can make such bold assumptions regarding the course of modern history Lumumba?

It is because they are certain about something. Not uncertain.

Those who do not possess certitude about this issue usually pose endless questions to those of us who do have certitude. I myself know this for a fact and witness it here all the time.

When was the last time you saw me post a question to someone here Lumumba?

I'd say it was a long time ago and since then, things have changed and so have I.

Now, if that doesn't satisfy you then tell me something that will satisfy your thirst for information that justifies your own belief and negates mine. It is your thirst and not mine Lumumba.

If its methodology that you hope for and wish to use it to prove something then by all means, employ some. Tell me about your own "methodology" as an individual and how that has provided you a measure of certitude about something. Is it about the number of hadith reporters, the "reported" reputation of various witnesses, the lineage of the reportage itself and do you consider the "absence" of something as useful as the "presence" of it?

Like the absence of Ali ibn Abi Taleb's words from the majority of sayings in Bukhari? I'd say, for such an important thing to be absent is indicative of something very, very strange. The absence of observations from the one person who was with the prophet almost every moment of his life, married his daughter AND performed the prophet's funeral ablutions is very strange indeed. Peace be upon the Ahl Bayt and Peace upon those who love them.

[Hannahh]

And one more little nugget to quench your seemingly undying thirst for the "truth":

Insisting something is wrong Lumumba, is not the same as insisting something is right.

You need to be very clear about that in your quest for knowledge.


If matters get mixed up then scrutinize the cause and you will know what the effects will be. -Ali ibn Abi Taleb, pbuh.

[Al-Boriqi]

lumumba, can you translate to me what just happened

[lumumba_s]

As salamu `alaykum,
Is that so? I accept that but in the end you seem not to accept that I am telling you the truth.You haven't even said anything? :wtf:
According to your question, I don't even know what it is you want.If you don't understand my question, you have given a response much more substantial than I was hoping for.

Al-Izaaree: Hannahh and Lumumba just happened.

[Hannahh]

Hmm.

Sorry, nope Lumumba. He's yours. As are all Al Qaeda types Sunnis. Or didn't you notice?

Why just last week they wired two mentally handicapped girls together in order to kill some Shia apostates.

What do the two of you think went wrong that time with the Sunni POV?

[Al-Boriqi]

qa'eda types.
qa'eda types.

:hoppingmad: :hoppingmad: :hoppingmad: :hoppingmad: :hoppingmad: :hoppingmad: :hoppingmad: :hoppingmad: :hoppingmad: :hoppingmad: :hoppingmad:

what on earth:confused:

[Hannahh]

"The declaration (kalimah), 'There is no god but Allah', is My stronghold; whoever enters My stronghold is secure from My punishment." Then he (al-'Imam al-Rida) said: "On its conditions (i.e. conditions of the 'kalimah'), and I am one of its conditions."

Imam Al Rida (May Allah be pleased with the Ahl Bayt) in response to Ma'mun's exploitation of the use of nass in government.


Come back to me when you get a clue Izaaree and you too Lumumba. The two of you are together it seems and I am apart.

And with that I am satisfied.

[Al-Boriqi]

what are you some conspiracy theorists.

I am asking you for the clue, duh. Why the heck I asked you the question to begin with

by the way can you AT LEAST present to us the isnaaaad of this hadeeth you have. who narrated it among your men.