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naderM

11th November 2007, 15:43

ihsan

11th November 2007, 18:30

Assalam alaykum

The bible says Abraham had to sacrifice his "only son" (Gen22:2,12) who couldnt be other than Ismail as he was born before Isaac,and couldnt be older than 13 as Isaac was born when he was 14 (Gen17:21,25).

What was Ismail's age when God ordered his sacrifice in Islamic tradition? The order came,as i understand from Ibn 'Abbas, after the building of the Kaaba when Ismail was a married man(after a divorce).And then the angels came to inform Ibrahim he will have Isaac & Jacob (11:69-73).

So the problem resides in the fact the Bible says the "only son" to be sacrificed couldnt be older than 13 and Islamic sources say Ismail's sacrifice was ordered at a time when Ismail was a married man.

Is there a way to reconcile the 2 accounts?

Please provide eveidence of this tradition from ibn Abbass (R). The Quran is explicit in the fact that the time of sacrifice was when the son reached the age to start helping his father with his work, i.e. was a youth about to become a man. This clearly rejects the idea that Ismail was a married man. ibn Abbass (R) could not have made such a mistake.

And, no, there is no way one can reconcile the accounts. The Quran and Sunnah is clear, and the OT is emphatic proof that the scribes tried to distort the reality. It is clear as day that Ismael (AS) was the one to be sacrificed.

naderM

11th November 2007, 20:21

naderM

11th November 2007, 20:52

I also have a question regarding the chronology in Surat Ibrahim.

After leaving Hagar and the new born Ismail(as) in the desert, Ibrahim(as) asks God to protect them in 14:37 and then thanks Him for giving him Ismail & Isaac in 14:39. Was Isaac born already when Ibrahim left Ismail in the wilderness?

and

Why did Ibrahim decide to leave them there: was it for the peace of his household due to Sarah's jealousy or was it a command from God?

ihsan

12th November 2007, 00:32

Its clear from both the Quran AND the Bible(even with the corruption of the jewish scribes) that Ismail(as) is the one Ibrahim(as) had to sacrifice.No uestion about that.

My question is: at what age Ismail had to be sacrificed.
Its clear from the bible that Abraham's "only son" (Ismail) couldnt be older than 13.
But from what i read here http://members.cox.net/ameer1/storyabra.html,
Ismail's sacrifice happens after he divorced and remarried, and after the building of the Kaaba...

Thanks for ur time Ihsan, and i hope u can clarify this issue to me.

The Quran says explicitly that the time of the sacrifice happened at the following point of time:

When he (Ismail) grew enough to work with him, he (Abraham) said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."

The Quran remarks that the age of sacrifice is when Ismail (AS) took to the age he began to help his father in youth, i.e. puberty, which confirms the approximate age in the Biblical account.

After leaving Hagar and the new born Ismail(as) in the desert, Ibrahim(as) asks God to protect them in 14:37 and then thanks Him for giving him Ismail & Isaac in 14:39. Was Isaac born already when Ibrahim left Ismail in the wilderness?

This prayer was mentioned in the later years of the life of Ibraheem (AS), after Isma'el had been living in Beersheba, or Mecca, for many years. Ibraheem still worried for them, and prayed that God would make Mecca a habitable region, where people would gather around his OFFSPRING, i.e. the Quran uses the plural. So the prayer is actually a dua for the continuation of his legacy in that region, even after Ismael (AS).

This verse also affirms that God Almighty had estabished Hagar and Ismael in the wilderness, and it had nothing to do with Saraj's alleged jealousy. In fact, this is emphatically known, because even the OT relates how it was Hagar and her INFANT, Isma'el (AS). Hagar was carrying Isma'el (AS), and if Isaac was born already such a feat is impossible. She also placed him under a bush and began searching for water. No woman can carry a 13 or 16 yeard teenage boy on her shoulder, place him under a bush, and then have the energy to run and search for water.

This also makes it abundatly clear that the narrations attributed to ibn Abbass (R) are fabricated, and Israeliyat tradition under the guise of hadeeth.

Why did Ibrahim decide to leave them there: was it for the peace of his household due to Sarah's jealousy or was it a command from God?

It was a command of God, as the above amply illustrates. The Quran also states that the sacrifices of Ibraheem (AS) would become the example fo r mankind of how he struggled, along with his family, for the sake of God Almighty alone. Further, the fact that God would bless the family in such an inhospitable terrain would give ample proof to humanity that God rewards those who struggle in his way, and the Ka'aba is the manifestation of these sacrifices by Abraham (AS).

Besides, the OT also wreaks of absurdity when it tries to portray Sara (AS) as jealous, when the very same OT states that it was Sarah (AS) that gave Hagar to be the wife of Abraham (AS), so that he (AS) could bear a child. But this story is also absurd, considering Ibraheem (AS), as the Quran also states, was in old age when he (AS) had Ismael (AS), which was a miracle. Hagar (AS) was not a slave, she was a princess, as even some Rabbinic traditions mention. The Pharisees have always tried to denigrate the family of Isma'el (AS), because the foundation of Zionism is rooted in the ideology that the Bani Israel are the chosen people, and can do what they want, and God will forgive them.

naderM

12th November 2007, 21:14

ihsan

15th November 2007, 15:28

Its amazing to see how much lies are spread over the net to create confusion among "beginners" like me in the field of Islam history. The link made me mix the chronology of the events in the Noble Quran. I appreciate the clarifications.

Do u have a reliable internet source regarding the life of the Prophets(as) and do u have the Jewish source for Hagar being an Egyptian princess.

Wa salaam,

Please read the article "The Great Sacrifice" at the following link:

http://www.renaissance.com.pk/aufarahi.html

As far as the Rabbinical source, I will get that to you when I have my source available. It is at home. But the main idea is that Hagar was actually the daughter of the King of Egypt, and was given to the family of Abraham (AS) as a gift and to serve the family, after the King witnessed the miracles of the Prophet (AS) when visiting that region.

My personal opinion is that the affiliation with Egypt is suspect for Abraham (AS). We know for a fact that the Israelites tries to wipe out traces of the Arabian peninsula in regards to the life of Abraham (AS). I believe that Hagar was actually an Arab.

In interesting observation is that the OT refers to the usage of camels in the context of ABraham (AS), while in Egypt. The domestication of camels occurred first in the Arabian peninsula.

The dromedary is easy to domesticate and the first evidence for tame dromedaries dates back to the late third millennium BCE. The domestication first happened on the Arabian peninsula, and it seems to have been connected to the exploitation of distant copper mines. However, it was only much later, in the tenth or ninth century BCE, that the dromedary became a really popular animal in the Near East.

A camel on the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser (British Museum)
From now on, long distance trade and desert nomadism became possible. The use of dromedaries in the second millennium BCE by nomadic tribes, as implied in the Biblical book Genesis, is almost certainly unhistorical and shows that Genesis was composed at a later age.

http://www.livius.org/caa-can/camel/camel.html

Camels were not domesticated prolifically in Egypt until after Abraham (AS), according to most scholars. Most skeptics cast blame on Genesis because of the reference of camels of Abraham in the context of Egypt. Most apologists argue that while camels weren't domesticated widely, this should not be taken to mean that the domestication of camels was not known in Egypt. But these objections come from the wrong perspective.

Abraham (AS) was not in Egypt, but he was in the Arabian peninsula, where domestication of camels was already in use.

Hagar (AS) was given into marriage to Abraham (AS) by an Arabian king or chief.

ihsan

16th November 2007, 15:46

But the main idea is that Hagar was actually the daughter of the King of Egypt, and was given to the family of Abraham (AS) as a gift and to serve the family, after the King witnessed the miracles of the Prophet (AS) when visiting that region.

Wa salaam,

Correction. According to Rabbinical literature, the Pharoah gave Hagar to Sarah, after witnessing the miracles God had done for the sake of the Prophet's (AS) wife. But the point is still clear. Here are the relevant passages taken from the Jewish Encyclopedia under the section Hagar:

According to the Midrash (Gen. R. xlv.), Hagar was the daughter of Pharaoh, who, seeing what great miracles God had done for Sarah's sake (Gen. xii. 17), said: "It is better for Hagar to be a slave in Sarah's house than mistress in her own." In this sense Hagar's name is interpreted as "reward" ("Ha-Agar" = "this is reward"). She was at first reluctant when Sarah desired her to marry Abraham, and although Sarah had full authority over her as her handmaid, she persuaded her, saying. "Consider thyself happy to be united with this saint." Hagar is held up as an example of the high degree of godliness prevalent in Abraham's time, for while Manoah was afraid that he would die because he had seen an angel of God (Judges xiii. 22), Hagar was not frightened by the sight of the divine messenger (Gen. R. l.c.). Her fidelity is praised, for even after Abraham sent her away she kept her marriage vow, and therefore she was identified with Keturah (Gen. xxv. 1), with allusion to (Aramaic, "to tie"; Gen. R. lxi.). Another explanation of the same name is "to adorn," because she was adorned with piety and good deeds (l.c.). It was Isaac who, after the death of Sarah, went to bring back Hagar to the house of his father; the Rabbis infer this from the report that Isaac came from Beer-lahai-roi, the place which Hagar had named (Gen. xvi. 14, xxiv. 62; Gen. R. lx.; see commentaries ad loc.).

We begin to see the Zionist tendencies in another passage from the same section:

Other homilies, however, take an unfavorable view of Hagar's character. Referring to the report that when she had conceived she began to despise her mistress, the Rabbis say that she gossiped about Sarah, saying: "She is certainly not as godly as she pretends to be, for in all the years of her married life she has had no children, while I conceived at once" (Gen. R. xlv.; Sefer ha-Yashar, Lek Leka). Sarah took revenge (Gen. xvi.) by preventing her intercourse with Abraham, by whipping her with her slipper, and by exacting humiliating services, such as carrying her bathing-materials to the bath (l.c.);she further caused Hagar by an evil eye to miscarry, and Ishmael, therefore, was her second child, as is inferred from the fact that the angel prophesied that she would bear a child (Gen. xvi. 11), while it had been narrated before that she was pregnant (Gen. xvi. 4). It is further inferred, from the words "she went astray" (Gen. xxi. 14, Hebr.), that as soon as she had reached the wilderness she relapsed into idolatry, and that she murmured against God's providence, saying: "Yesterday thou saidest: 'I will multiply thy seed exceedingly' [Gen. xvi. 10]; and now my son is dying of thirst." The fact that she selected an Egyptian woman as her son's wife is also counted against her as a proof that her conversion to Judaism was not sincere, for "throw the stick into the air, it will return to its root" (Gen. R. liii., end). This Egyptian wife is explained in the Targum of pseudo-Jonathan to refer to Khadijaand Fatima, the widow and the daughter of Mohammed (see Zunz, "G. V." 2d ed., p. 288, note a).

This interpretation is so laughable, it isn't even worthy of comment. Here is another interesting passage:

While the two narratives, Gen. xvi. and xxi. 9-21, are not directly contradictory, the critical school, pointing to the fact that in both instances Hagar is expelled upon Sarah's request and with the reluctant assent of Abraham, and that in both instances she receives, while sitting by a fountain, a divine message foretelling the great destiny of her son, finds in these narratives two parallel accounts of the origin of the Bedouins, whose racial affinity with the Israelites the latter had to admit, while degrading them by tracing their origin to a concubine of their common ancestor. Accordingly the name "Hagar" is explained as "the fugitive," from the Arabic "hajar" (to flee). Her native country was not Egypt, but Muṣri in northern Arabia, according to Winckler ("Altorientalische Forschungen," pp. 29 et seq., as cited by Holzinger, "Genesis," in "Kurzer Hand-Commentar zum Alten Testament," p. 151). As regards sources, the account in Gen. xvi. is assumed to be Jahvistic, with the exception of verse three, which, apparently repeating verse two, is ascribed to the Priestly Code; the account in Gen. xxi. is put down as Elohistic.

As is obvious, we begin to see various interpolations regarding the real truth.

Guest

17th November 2007, 20:07

Assalaamu'alaikum

So the problem resides in the fact the Bible says the "only son" to be sacrificed couldnt be older than 13 and Islamic sources say Ismail's sacrifice was ordered at a time when Ismail was a married man.

Is there a way to reconcile the 2 accounts?Firstly, I would say to you that this knowledge is of that which does not benefit, like the colour of the dog of the People of the Cave. Secondly, whenever there is a clash between something which is Islamic and something which is not, then the preference is given to Islam, as that is unaltered, unchanged, complete.

Wassalaam

justavisitor

1st February 2013, 16:20

Camels were not domesticated prolifically in Egypt until after Abraham (AS), according to most scholars. Most skeptics cast blame on Genesis because of the reference of camels of Abraham in the context of Egypt. Most apologists argue that while camels weren't domesticated widely, this should not be taken to mean that the domestication of camels was not known in Egypt. But these objections come from the wrong perspective.

Abraham (AS) was not in Egypt, but he was in the Arabian peninsula, where domestication of camels was already in use.

This theory has been refuted by recent finds, showing that the taming of camels existed already in Egypt even before Abraham.

http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/camel.html
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=858

ihsan

29th March 2013, 15:27

This theory has been refuted by recent finds, showing that the taming of camels existed already in Egypt even before Abraham.

http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/camel.html
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=858

You seem to not be able to read properly.

Camels were not domesticated prolifically in Egypt until after Abraham (AS), according to most scholars. Most skeptics cast blame on Genesis because of the reference of camels of Abraham in the context of Egypt. Most apologists argue that while camels weren't domesticated widely, this should not be taken to mean that the domestication of camels was not known in Egypt. But these objections come from the wrong perspective.

None of your response changes the point.

Sohail123

2nd April 2013, 05:12

Assalam O Allikum
Age the of Hazrat Ismail is 14 year when Allah Almighty order the hazrat Ibrahim to sacrifice his son. here iam share a link with you from where you can confirm it.
http://www.renaissance.com.pk/jarefl96.html

naderM

6th April 2013, 11:31

This theory has been refuted by recent finds, showing that the taming of camels existed already in Egypt even before Abraham.

http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/camel.html
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=858

It is obvious that camels existed outside Arabia and were known to the people before that period, but this doesnt prove prolific domestication as was the case in Arabia. And neither does one need tamed camels to use their dung, bones, or wool as some apologists contend. But other apologists do not even try contending with these archeological facts using this kind of flimsy evidence and instead argue that the Biblical narratives do not indicate camel domestication but rather fit a pattern in which camels were known but very uncommon.
The point to retain is that this Ishmaelite caravan spoken of in Gen37 came from the Arabian desert and was travelling to Egypt.

ihsan

11th April 2013, 21:58

The point to retain is that this Ishmaelite caravan spoken of in Gen37 came from the Arabian desert and was travelling to Egypt.

salaams,

This is even another excellent point, which I never even thought about. I'd also add, based upon the quote you reference, the following:

As they sat down to eat their meal, they looked up and saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead. Their camels were loaded with spices, balm and myrrh, and they were on their way to take them down to Egypt.

This actually demonstrates the well-known commercial exploits of the Ishmaelites, which is attested into the Quran, which are maong facts that ourr 'friendly' missionaries always have a unique zeal to try and deny historically. The Ishmaelites, even in Biblical literature, were known for their business acumen and trade and products such as spice, balm and myrrh (all products of higher cultures, like India, Yemen and Persia) attest to how they served as middle-men for the great Empires of the past.