"The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness"

[razwan1979]

This is what war does to people.

The Nation| July 9, 2007 (July 30, 2007 issue)
The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges)

Chris Hedges & Laila Al-Arian


Over the past several months The Nation has interviewed fifty combat veterans of the Iraq War from around the United States in an effort to investigate the effects of the four-year-old occupation on average Iraqi civilians. These combat veterans, some of whom bear deep emotional and physical scars, and many of whom have come to oppose the occupation, gave vivid, on-the-record accounts. They described a brutal side of the war rarely seen on television screens or chronicled in newspaper accounts.

Their stories, recorded and typed into thousands of pages of transcripts, reveal disturbing patterns of behavior by American troops in Iraq. Dozens of those interviewed witnessed Iraqi civilians, including children, dying from American firepower. Some participated in such killings; others treated or investigated civilian casualties after the fact. Many also heard such stories, in detail, from members of their unit. The soldiers, sailors and marines emphasized that not all troops took part in indiscriminate killings. Many said that these acts were perpetrated by a minority. But they nevertheless described such acts as common and said they often go unreported--and almost always go unpunished.

Court cases, such as the ones surrounding the massacre in Haditha and the rape and murder of a 14-year-old in Mah*mudiya, and news stories in the Washington Post, Time, the London Independent and elsewhere based on Iraqi accounts have begun to hint at the wide extent of the attacks on civilians. Human rights groups have issued reports, such as Human Rights Watch's Hearts and Minds: Post-war Civilian Deaths in Baghdad Caused by U.S. Forces, packed with detailed incidents that suggest that the killing of Iraqi civilians by occupation forces is more common than has been acknowledged by military authorities.

It's very long (even for the UofC&P).

[newsX]

This is what war does to people.

The Nation| July 9, 2007 (July 30, 2007 issue)
The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges)

Chris Hedges & Laila Al-Arian



It's very long (even for the UofC&P).

A very good piece. I've posted it on my weblog.

[Guest]

The kind of material that is present in the report (I just read the first 2 pages to see enough) is the kind of stuff that I have been telling members of this board for ages. But of course, the occupiers were all angels and liberators and the usual nonsense... Your proof has come, it had to come sooner or later.

[newsX]

The kind of material that is present in the report (I just read the first 2 pages to see enough) is the kind of stuff that I have been telling members of this board for ages. But of course, the occupiers were all angels and liberators and the usual nonsense... Your proof has come, it had to come sooner or later.

Shalom,

The name Chris Hedges caught my attention. He was in a talk show once with Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, discussing about a topic, Does God Love War? The lecture can be had here (http://www.alhambraproductions.com/podcast/index.php?id=20).

[razwan1979]

But of course, the occupiers were all angels and liberators and the usual nonsense... Your proof has come, it had to come sooner or later.

Can you show us who said "the occupiers were all angels and liberators"? I would be interested in this.

Can you also show us similar self-criticism, and self-exposure, shown by "the other side"?

[Guest]

T'is back from the ol' days when Hashim used to be around. A lot of prominent members at this forum were convinced that America was all noble and had good things in mind and blah blah blah. It was all an attitude, against the one that America is devil, lol.

[razwan1979]

Any specific quotes, Haroon? That is not my recollection.

I do remember a thread called "Friday prayers in Iraq" with Hischam.

What I remember (and I am glancing through the thread now), is people criticising the methods attributed to, or carried out, by the "resistance" such as ramming car trucks into groups of men, women and children going about their daily business in Baghdad and other Iraqi cities. I do also remember Hischam rejecting the idea that Muslims could ever kill each other and thinking it must all be an American plot (because, of course, Muslims killing each other was such a preposterous idea that it was really the Americans who had teleported themselves back in time when Muslims killed each other).

(Note, I don't discount the fact that some of these "extremist groups" carrying out violent attacks are paid by the Americans -- this is how counterinsurgency has been fought by the British and French and you'd have to naive to think the Americans have not learnt these lessons. Yet it still requires Muslims to kill other Muslims for this plot to be successful and we can't discount the fact that there are criminals -- who are also Muslim -- and who kill for money and sectarianism.)

However, I don't recall anyone supporting the invasion and occupation of Iraq let alone your claim that "the occupiers were [seen as] angels and liberators".

Anyway, the interviews with the soldiers shows how much dehumansiation of "the enemy" takes place in modern warfare and caution against glorification of the violence in war.

Indeed, this is a lesson for Muslims too who glorify the violent aspects of "jihad". I went to see a brother speak in London a few weeks ago, who was one of the major players in the "jihadi" network in Britain. Unlike Messrs "Ed" Husain and Hasan Butt, this brother had actually fought in Afghanistan and Bosnia and was known to the security services for doing so. He has turned away from the senseless violence that has become "jihad" (this is to be distinguished from a regulated jihad in Islamic law that has as many rules as salat). Some of the things he noted about the glorification of violence and the dehumanusation in some "jihadi" circles struck me as I read The Nation interviews.

[Ron]

Salam Haroon,

A lot of prominent members at this forum were convinced that America was all noble and had good things in mind and blah blah blah.
With all due respect, is this not the epitome of back biting? There is not one person that is Muslim on this forum that made such a statement. What brother Razwan has said is the absolute truth. Haroon, my dear brother, how is it that we should accept your views on so many others issues as being true yet before our eyes you have this situation skewed beyond recognition? It is a direct conversation that you were having and somehow in your mind has translated it into something completely different. Your accusations are severe and dangerous and I honestly believe you should think about them before you make them. Unless you can answer:

Can you show us who said "the occupiers were all angels and liberators"? I would be interested in this.

Can you also show us similar self-criticism, and self-exposure, shown by "the other side"?
If you cannot, I would urge you to retract your statement. I am humbly reaching out to you. Please be understanding.

Regards

[Guest]

Assalaamu'alaikum Ron

I think you're reading too deep into my words. I was speaking lightly. My quill was not dripping with thick, black ink. I am talking about days long past when discussions were under way regarding the Evil Kuffar of the West and how they were pillaging and raping e.t.c. and the other side of the argument that was presented, i.e. about how it was a war of liberation, reconstruction, toppling regimes e.t.c. As I said, it was more of what you may call a pro-Western-policy attitude than anything else. Just as I have an attitude against most actions that are carried out in the world by most governments, I rarely see any good in it. In that regard my attitude is pessimistic. The kind of viewpoint/attitude of the other side of the argument is more the type that Shaykh Hamza Yusuf had at the start of the Afghanistan invasion.


yet before our eyes you have this situation skewed beyond recognition?Howso? Please explain a bit.

P.S. Where on Earth do you get backbiting from?

Regards ~ Wassalaam

[Ron]

Salam Haroon,

Maybe you were speaking lightly. But as you know, unfortunately, if a person living in a particular place in the world says something "wrong" they could be attacked. This may seem like a stretch to some, but the problem is that you never know. The thing is to remain as accurate as possible. No one in that discussion ever said, "how it was a war of liberation, reconstruction, toppling regimes." I think you are going to have to quote the thread that such a thing was said or something. Or else I honestly think that this is an unfair statement and does not reflect the truth of the matter.

To me this is back biting in the sense of defamation. Maybe to some people back biting is simply mentioning someone but to my understanding it is the actual willful attempt at maligning someone. You didn't mention names but you did mention "prominent members."

I am not attacking you I am trying to help you realize this very important point.

Regards

[Guest]

Assalaamu'alaikum Ron

Sorry for the late reply. It seems that you have taken this personally, and that was not my intent. I "Edit:Undo" anything that has caused you offence, do forgive me.

Regards ~ Wassalaam

[Ron]

Wa Alaikumu Salam,

No offense taken my dear brother. I am just concerned for people's well being even I may be overstating the situation.

Thank you for your kind regard.

[newsX]

"Edit:Undo"

Shalom...cyber-tawbah?