Nationalism vs Religion

[Roswell]

Salam,
I need to have information about

1. Is Jahad performed within the boundaries or beyond ?
(I mean outside the country or within it)
(Don't Discuss when & why JAHAD is Fardh)
2.Am I first Pakistani(As I am) or a Muslim ?
(Am not borned Muslim, it just the my family which I belong,turned me into Muslim, but I'm borned Pakistani) - Discusse it !

If this seems to be a non-issue, ignore it




Roswell

Edited by - Roswell on 07/25/2004 16:59:24

[Guest]

Salaam Brother Roswell,

Jihad can be performed anywhere where need be. It can be on ur own front door or a million miles away. When u say boundaries do u mean like u cannot cross the pakistani border but can fight in pakistan? Explain.

You are "borned" a pakistani?! Lol. Thats a good one. Sorry im just amused by incorrect english! Well. U are only pakistani because u were born on that specific bit of dirt on the planet. Muslim obviously comes first. But i dont see the need to have a versus sign. They can work together u know.

May Allah help us all.

[Roswell]

Salam,


When u say boundaries do u mean like u cannot cross the pakistani border but can fight in pakistan? Explain.

forget it, I understood...

well, humm lol about wrong english, I know my engish is not so good, but some times I , intentionally do that for having some fun with poeple around this forum,
i know u can nderstand :P Maulana Sheikh Haroon hahahha


Roswell

[Guest]

You are too much brother Roswell! Keep it up! Nice to see someone with a sense of humour! Wasalaam.

[Nadeem]

SALAAM ROSWELL,

YOU WROTE;
2.Am I first Pakistani(As I am) or a Muslim ?
(Am not borned Muslim, it just the my family which I belong,turned me into Muslim, but I'm borned Pakistani) - Discusse it !

HAVEN'T YOU HEARD OF THE WELL KNOWN FACT THAT EVERY SINGLE PERSON IS A BORN MUSLIM,EVEN CHILDREN OF THE KUFFAR!
SO YOU ARE MUSLIM FIRST,THEN PAKISTANI.
ALLAH CREATED YOU AND CAUSED YOU TO BE BORN ,NOT PAKISTAN.
PAKISTAN IS JUST A MAN-MADE NAME FOR A PART OF THE EARTH.

IT IS THE KUFFAR WHO CHANGE THEIR CHILDREN INTO THEIR RESPECTIVE RELIGIONS,WHILST THE MUSLIM PARENTS TRY TO ENSURE THEIR CHILDREN STAY MUSLIM.
WASALAAM.






Roswell

Edited by - Roswell on 07/25/2004 16:59:24
[/quote]

"And say that the Truth has come and falsehood vanished,for falsehood is ever bound to vanish."
Holy Qur'an.

[Guest]

Salaam Nadeem sahib,

Now there come 2 separate issues.

One, a person is "born" muslim.

Two, a person is not "born" muslim.

In actual fact both of these statements are correct, a person is born with correct fitrah, towards the knowledge and worship of Allah. But it is also true that ones birth upon the true fitrah does not mean that heaven is their birthright. Therefore the second statement is talking about acting upon the principles of Islam, that a muslim is one who submits, and u are not one until u submit. I hope this clears any misunderstandings!

Everything on Earth shall surely perish, indeed our death will come. Prepare today and reap the reward tomorrow.

[Nadeem]

Salaam Sh.Haroon,

Understood ,but I was talking as regards being muslim(born in natural fitrah)first rather than muslim(submitting willingly)which one cannot be until one is old enough to realise and comprehend things for him/herself.
Even then a person should have his religious identity first before his country.Because religious identity has important meaning,which country does not have.

I say a person should be,

1)muslim by birth(natural fitrah) and when old enough,by choice.
2)a creature of Allah.
3)a human being by definition,of mankind.
4)from a particular race of mankind.
5)their sex,male or female.
6)from a particular tribe(kaum),dynasty(khandan)or family.
7)their natural relations,eg, son,father ,mother,sister etc.
8)their profession or other role in life.
9)An earthling,meaning from this planet.
10)their nationality.

Anyway that is only my opinion,and I would define myself using this list in that order.
Wasalaam.



"And say that the Truth has come and falsehood vanished,for falsehood is ever bound to vanish."
Holy Qur'an.

Edited by - Nadeem on 08/21/2004 19:35:09

[Vajradhara]

Salaam all,

what does being "born Muslim" mean?

i would posit that people are born agnostic and gain a sense of the spiritual through events that transpire through their life.

"The Name that can be Named is not the Eternal Name."



~compassionately~

[Guest]

Peace be to u, mighty Vajradhara, Salaam brothers,

I have taken a bit of effort to make clear the ideas of the "fitrah" to our noble friend, Porky, but i will once again try to enlighten u. "Born" muslim means, that u are born knowing that there is a Supreme Deity and that that Deity is worthy of being worshipped. It is a human inclination to want to bow before something mighty and we have learnt that the only thing which has might and has the right to be worshipped, then, is Allah (s.w.t), the Creator, the Most High.

Also, a person may be agnostic or an atheist, but in times of distress he calls out to his Lord, no matter how mighty he may be, or how rich he may be. You may say that it is a simple bit of social doctrine, if u like, that we call out to God, but in actual fact, it is the fitrah. That same force, which teaches the flower to face the sun and tells it why, that same force, which orders the river to flow and tells it why, the force of Allah (s.w.t). I'll elaborate further if need be, but keep posting!

Everything on Earth shall surely perish, indeed our death will come. Prepare today and reap the reward tomorrow.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Sheik Haroon,

thank you for the post.

only i can enlighten myself :) thank you for the offer though!

when you say that a being is born knowning that there is a Supreme Deity, how have you determined this? the last time that i checked, infants were not able to communicate except through grunts and cries and some rudimentary facial expressions.

is it your contention, then, that since all beings are born knowing the Supreme Deity, that the beings that consider themselves atheist are fooling themselves? are they in denial? that they are willfully ignoring the innate recognition of God? if so, for what reason would they do that?

i'll have to challenge the bit about "human inclination to want to bow before something mighty..." i do not think that you have any foundation for this assertion, though if you do, i'd be happy to read it.

i do not call out to your Lord at any point in time.. distress, extacsy or indifferent. this is an appeal to emotion. even when i was a theist i rarely called out to a personal name of deity.

now... here's where it's even more interesting... so... you are asserting that flowers have to be told to face the sun? do all plants have to be told this information?

you mean that gravity isn't what causes water to run downhill? and you're asserting that the water in the river needs to be told why it has to run downhill?

it sounds like you are describing the Will of God, though i'm not sure what the word "fitrah" actually means so i cannot be sure.

~compassionately~

[shabana]

I couldn't be bothered about culture...

...pakistani cultures like India culture...above all I don't like the way most treat women like complete crap.

People are bothered too much about culture-they let it take over their life...

...like on Eid people walk round with Pakistan flags in England. Hmmm...thats a religous event...not a day to be parading round with pakistan flags...

...and theres this mosque, they do this once a year event, its like aholy event, yet they parade round the street with huuuuuuuge pakistn flags shouting something like "pakistan zinbaabah"...that day is a relgious event...not pakistan idependance day!

Some people are too involved in culture...I ain't into culture...pakistan reckon they got unique culture-its indian culture...

...the weddings and everything. They copy india...this whole dowries bussiness...

I'm a british pakistani, yeah, I ain't ashamed..no way...

...but some people are too involced in culture...I mean where it say in the Quaran "You will bunn in hell for eternity if you don't walk round parading the streets with a pakistan flag shouting "pakistan zinbaabah"...

It doesn't...

...people are too involved in culture...too involved. Some people put it before religion...

And what annoys me is when some cultures hate it when their son/daughter wants to marry someone from a different race. Argh...they act like they are marrying someone from a different religion. Thats wrong...they feel someone from a different race isn't good enough...could you call it racism...

I could go on forever...

[AmericanGirl]

Salaam Shabana,

I agree with you when you say about interracial marriages. It also annoys the hell out of me when people especially "family" act like its a different religion. I don't blame you at all. Just as long its the same relgion that fine, but some people take it to a certain extent. I don't think that it is racism, because some people do it for their very own good.

[Guest]

Salaam Shabana,

Yes, i too agree with u. That type of nationalism is wrong is Islam.

Vajradhara!

Thank u for your post.

when you say that a being is born knowning that there is a Supreme Deity, how have you determined this? the last time that i checked, infants were not able to communicate except through grunts and cries and some rudimentary facial expressions.

How does that child, with its grunts and cries, know that its mother is its source of milk? How does it know that? You would say through experience? Like the tiger cub born in the wild, goes straight away to its mother to feed? Experience? No, it is in fact not evolution either. It is like the fitrah, except a fitrah towards it immediate needs not its worship. Allah has told it what it needs to know, almost like a preliminary bit of knowledge, and u cannot deny that it is a knowledge given through something other than experience.

And this is the same with our children. If they have no distractions or any type of negative influence, the fitrah will ripen like the fruits of a tree, and his belief if God will be there, even if he has no contact with, lets say, a Muslim.

that they are willfully ignoring the innate recognition of God?

Yes, my point exactly.

if so, for what reason would they do that?

Because life is more fun with out bowing to God! When u cannot fulfill ur desires in the now, social way, it is God that is the hinderance, so why would they worship Him? They are indeed a people transgressing.

you are asserting that flowers have to be told to face the sun? do all plants have to be told this information?

The program needs a creator. How can the program work without being told how to work. We breathe because God has programmed us to breathe like that. This is not evolution. Is the flower born with the knowledge to turn towards the sun? The answer is yes. Why? Because it is God's will. The flower is naturally inclined to turn towards that great source of energy, and likewise, the child is naturally inclined to turn to God.

you mean that gravity isn't what causes water to run downhill? and you're asserting that the water in the river needs to be told why it has to run downhill?

I mean that it is God, who placed "gravity" and God who created "downhill". Perhaps the water doesnt need to be told why it runs down, but it is certainly told TO run down. I'll catch up a bit later! Ive gtg now!

Everything on Earth shall surely perish, indeed our death will come. Prepare today and reap the reward tomorrow.

[yac]

salaam all
i would like to say you are pakistani first.and that will not change ever.even suppose you migrate to USA and you have children they will laways be pakistani atleast for a few generations.nobody is born muslim nobody.you maybe child of god but that does not make you muslim.
not untill you know islam and understand it and its consequensec can you be muslim.

[Nadeem]

Salaam yac,

Are you sure?Did Pakistan create or beget you?
Everybody is born in a pure state of Islam as Sh.Haroon has very nicely explained.
'Muslim' has two meanings.
1)Muslim (submitted to God by their nature),e.g sun,moon and all creatures with no freewill.This includes children at the time of birth.This is what we mean by being born muslim.
2)Muslim (submitted to God by freewill choice) as creatures with freewill(humans and jinns)are when they willingly choose the correct path.
I hope you understand it now.
Wasalaam.

"And say that the Truth has come and falsehood vanished,for falsehood is ever bound to vanish."
Holy Qur'an.

[Nadeem]

Assalaam Sister Shabana,

Glad to hear from you again,yes

I couldn't agree with you more,you made a really good point about religion and Pakistani(Indian)culture.
They don't mix at all.
Islam has it's own unique inbuilt culture based on Allah's(swt) revelations and the Messenger's(saw) example.
I can truly understand your anger and frustration,it is well founded.Especially parents objecting to marriage with one from another race,but then some object to marriage from outside the relative circle!!It is truly disgusting.Allah(swt) help us,Ameen.
Wasalaam.

"And say that the Truth has come and falsehood vanished,for falsehood is ever bound to vanish."
Holy Qur'an.

[Vajradhara]

Salaam Shiekh Haroon,

thank you for the post.

i don't want to derail the thread with our conversation, though that is likely to happen... my apologies in advance.

how a child or tiger cub, for that matter, know that its mother is the source of its milk? i cannot say that the child "knows" this in an emprical sense, this is the rooting instinct.

humans, like all animals, have instincts that we do not develop or learn, we simply have. some may posit that these are from God, others that these are evolved, in either case, however, instincts are the mechanism for this behavior.

so.. someone like myself is willfully ignoring my innate recognition of God so that i can pursue my desires in an unfettered manner? given that you know some of my ethical motivations, why would this be appealing?

are you saying that the only reason people like yourself behave in a moral or ethical fashion is because you fear Allah, not because you actually are moral or ethical?

i'm afraid that the analogy of a software program to the universe is a bit thin and doesn't really apply. so.. i gather that your view of science is that Allah is sustaining every one of our scientific conclusions, is that correct?

if so, does Allah let them go or change these scientific conclusions when we have to modify our explanation of the observed facts? i suppose that what i'm asking, in a long winded way, is this:

scientific theories change when new data is presented. if Allah is sustaning these theories, how can they change when new data is presented?

i think that this is a difficult problem for those that proclaim that Allah sustains all scientific laws.. since we know that these things change when new data is presented.

by the by... it was humans that created the concept of "downhill" :)





~compassionately~

[Guest]

My my vajradhara u posted after so long i cant remember half of what i had to say to u! <img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle> Give me some time and ill get back to u.

[Vajradhara]

no worries :)

take your time... we are all busy people.. all evidence to the contrary :)



~compassionately~