Nude Spouse

[Roswell]

salam
i always looking to get answer about nudeness of spouse, i'm confused about that, can anyone see spouse completely naked ???
some people say this could impact on Nikkah' but i thing this is bull****

i guess there is no restriction except described in Sura'h Noor how to intercourse......
but still i need assitance


Roswell

[rehaam]

<p align=justify> Islamic Shari'ah does not discuss things that are already known to the people. The Almighty did not see it necessary to tell people to eat through thier mouths and not noses. Similar is the case of intercourse. Man knows the natural way of intercourse.
<p align=justify> As for seeing one's wife nude, the Shariah, as for i know, does not give any instructions in this regard. People have always considered it rihgt to satisfy thier sexaul desires with thier wives. They do not consider it wrong to share privacy with their wives and can of course see one another. if they can have sex they can see one another too. the Qur'an has called the spouses 'libaas' (attire) for one another. We wear clothes to safeguard not only our body from physical harms (cold etc) but also our moral being when we only enter into sexual relatioship with our wives and are not forced to adopt illegal and immoral ways to satisfy our sexaul desires.

Do not call me ignorant; educate me

[Roswell]

salam raheem,
thanx, ur reply strieks me,
u have said :
"We wear clothes to safeguard not only our body from physical harms (cold etc) but also our moral being when we only enter into sexual relatioship with our wives and are not forced to adopt illegal and immoral ways to satisfy our sexaul desires."

but in Quran, i 've read "It is ur field(wives) u may cultivate them either which way u like"..
(except anal intercourse)- sorry for bad words..

i'm really sorry i cant remember the sura'h n aaya'h number,

then how can u justify ur "moral being".. ??
Regards,


Roswell

[Guest]

Salaam brothers. When these delicate issues are raised, a point to consider would be the fact that Islam is the religion of decency, of modesty. I do recall reading in the fiqhs of both Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Sha'fi (at least) that intercourse is better done at night time due to the fact that it keeps a level of modesty present, under veil of darkness. Also both of these imams agree on the fact it was a prophetic way to have a sheet in between the two whilst they were "occupied". I do not think that it is wrong to see ur wife naked but i would say that u shouldnt unless u were actually going to have intercourse with her. By this i mean that u shouldnt really make her strip whilst she is going about her chores or wateva.

As far as whether it disrupts the nikah or not...well to tell u the truth i havent ever really heard of the like before. I hope ive at least got u thinking.

[Roswell]

salam haroon,
yeah u really mke me think as i always do :)
well
u consider both imam's "opinion" that the intercourse should under the viel of darkness
but u rote "I do not think that it is wrong to see ur wife naked"
aint it contradictory ?
i mean u r also not consedering thier opinion in a way
neverthless, i dont really think that u cant play with ur spouse without having sexual intercourse.... it will be extream level of "MODESTY"

make me clear


Roswell

[Guest]

Salaam Brother Roswell. What i meant about the Imams' opinions is that this method is the PREFERED method, the one that should be followed or the prophet (s.a.w) encouraged or did himself. Concerning the seeing of your spouse naked, wat i meant was that it is not WRONG WRONG to see your wife naked but just that u should observe a level of modesty......im talking about moderation basically. To a limit.

I also remember reading in the Musnad of Imam Ahmed that when u have intercourse with ur wife, it is preferable to have a cloth in between you...i suppose this highlights my point on observing a level of modesty.

Islam is known as the religion of moderation... hence why im saying that it is a PREFERABLE way (as far as im aware). Of course following the prefered way of he Holy Prophet (s.a.w) has great merit and virtue....no need to go into much detail but the prophet (s.a.w) did say that someone who loves and follows my sunnah, even if he is a sinner, i will intercede for him on the Last Day. I hope ive answered ur question...

May Allah help us all.

[Roswell]

salam haron
well, i need to know what if a person doest follow that PRESCRIBE method ?? is that obligatory ?
i guess no, bcoz that sunna'h is one of the sunna'h that it depands upon person, no obligation... like the way the prophet sleepeat/drink...... etc...
regards...
thanx for replying any way


Roswell

[Guest]

Salaam Brother Roswell.

Brother the Quran doesnt go into great great amounts of detail into everything....this is made up for by the sunnah of the Prophet (s.a.w)in the hadith collected by the muhadith and then explained by the 4 imams (at least). Their views is that this is the way to do it. Just like u eat with ur right hand....not fardh to do so but u should cuz ur muslim (big big sunnah)....and so on.

This is THE WAY OF THE MUSLIM... i wud most humbly advise u 2 follow it. May Allah help us all.

[Ronnie]

Salam Roswell,

I think the answer to your question is that the Shari'ah says nothing regarding how "naked" a person may get in front of their spouse. First, God has guided us through our instinct. In other words we know what is natural and what is not. Hence, it is absolutely natural by the very convention of intercourse that nakedness is just fine, day or night. Secondly, nothing in Divine Guidance prohibits a married couple from enjoying one another. Expressing love in whichever way (within the guidelines of Islam) is a beautiful gift from God. Making this act so mechanical is contrary to its purpose and nature. God has given us this blessing so that we may express love, pleasure and share moments only a husband and wife can. We should take great care in taking cultural standards or biases as doctrine. We don't live in the Dark Ages of Europe where the church tells us what to do and how to do it.

Regards

[Roswell]

w.salam Ronnie
and salam to all,
well ronni,e u express my question in a beautiful way and gave answered nicely... thanx..
well with all due resprect, brother haroon,
i'm afraid i cant agree with ur opinion given in ur recent reply,
coz that all those sunnah's eating by right hand, the way we sleep/drink eat , dressing etc.. its just depnad on sothing mood of person / cultural standards....

for example, prophet travelled on Camels, why do u use a car instead ? aint it sunnah ?
prophet weared tehbund, why do u wear paint shirt etc.....
i still belive that there is a big diffrence between the sunnah's above mentioned adn the other sunnah which are worth such that councilation/peacefull revolution/chose the easy option etc....
the one is not obigatory while the other one is...

so i'm still belive that i'm not offering sin if i can't follow those imam's opinion regarding intercourse......but within the guidelines of islam as brother Ronnie said so (in past few days i'm not sure about ronnie whtere its she or he lols :P )
Ronnie make me clear who u actually are, but ur name sounds me Female
heheheh
c ya aroung



Roswell

[Guest]

Salaam brother Roswell.

Leaving aside the topic of the spouse for the time being, with all due to respect brother, i dont reli think u got the point of wat i said. As far as transportation and clothing is concerned, these are not issues which heavily affect the deen or have any particular status so long as u dont go beyond wat is seen by another muslim as ok. Brother if it came down to these issues, then we would not be able to live in this modern world we live in today. Since u highlighted to different types of sunnah, i think this issue fits into the more major one of the two. This is no weak topic like transportational means.

I say this because wen this topic is taken from the wrong perspective, ie. from the haraam point of view, abuse of it is a big deal and a big sin. In the same way, wen doing it in the right way, there must obviously be right methods as well. And with all due respect, i never actually said that u would be sinning if u didnt follow the imams ways, just that they say it is the prophetic way hence u SHOULD follow it.

Brother Ronnie.

"We don't live in the Dark Ages of Europe where the church tells us what to do and how to do it."

Though it is true to extent wat u say brother, i beg to differ in this topic at least. Since the topic of any relationship is a heavy topic, the knowledge is sought by everybody. In this topic at least, i did a heavy amount of research going to many scholars and imams as well as consulting various books and the scriptures of fiqh left by the 4 imams. And though there is no great "fardh" in the way u sleep with ur wife, the prophet (s.a.w) did indeed tell of a few things which shouldnt be done as i stated in the topic entitled "Sexual Relations". It is also true that church wrongly thought to intervene into the peoples' sexual lives and forbade wat Allah made halaal, but the religion of Christianity lost its foundations when the injeel was changed, meaning that anything new was an innovation simply brought in by someone, in this case probably the head bishop or pope or wateva.

Islam, the religion of moderation, does not restrict u in any natural way of having intercourse. I mentioned, and u nullified that it is preferred to have it at night. I even put the word "preferred" in capitals for u.... This means that there is virtue if u follow it but by no means any sin if u dont. Brother Roswell i never claimed that u would be sinning by seeing ur wife naked, rather that i simply gave u the preferred way u should go about it.

Forgive me for picking out points brother Ronnie but i also feel this needs to be elaborated on:

"..nothing in Divine Guidance prohibits a married couple from enjoying one another."

In terms of natural intercourse or love, indeed u are right. But lets say someone would enjoy his wife by means of anal sex, he is still doing wrong. Just because it his wife doesnt mean that every single little thing has suddenly been made halaal for him. Moderation, brother. Everything has limits. Im not telling u to have intercourse with ur wife in a mechanical way...the methods presented by Islam are the most natural, rather i suppose it is our indoctrinated minds if u like, in terms of wat we have seen on TV that makes Islam's ways seem unnatural.

Wasalaam

[Ronnie]

Salam All,

Brother Roswell there was a whole entire thread regarding my name and sex. I am a male :) Most "Ronnie's" at least as far as I am aware of are male. However, the name can be used for females as well. Hope I cleared that up :)

Brother Haroon,

I mentioned, and u nullified that it is preferred to have it at night.

I simply stated that according to my knowledge the Shari'ah does not state such a thing. I have tremendous respect for the Great Imams and their opinions.

I even put the word "preferred" in capitals for u.... This means that there is virtue if u follow it but by no means any sin if u dont.

Thank you and that too was my point. "Preferred" is not doctrine, that's all I was saying.

But lets say someone would enjoy his wife by means of anal sex, he is still doing wrong.

I put the words "within the guidelines of Islam" to state that any of these actions must be within the guidelines of Islam. If what you say it correct according to Islamic doctrine then you are right. Hence, we agree but I think you misunderstood and didn't consider my words, "within the guidelines of Islam."

the methods presented by Islam are the most natural, rather i suppose it is our indoctrinated minds if u like, in terms of wat we have seen on TV that makes Islam's ways seem unnatural.

I don't think anyone would claim that Islam's prescriptions are "unnatural." Though, I would agree that there are a lot of negative influences out there.

Regards

[Roswell]

salam

well brother haroon, i'm sorry if i pretend to be wrong, or took wrong perception from ur replies,sorry any way

all i wanted to say is, i dont think that sunna'h or prophetic way to get invlove with wife is obligatory, although it is 'prefered' way

as the matter of fact, when someone is getting sex, no rules n regulation that he remembers ,could obey, bcoz it is the situation that no can keep control thier mind .........
THAT IS WHY allah has only command just only one thing to remember whle having sex that is anal.



Roswell

[Guest]

Salaam Brother Roswell.

I am very sorry to have to contradict u but the shariah does not just mention that only anal sex is prohibited. Oral for one thing is also forbidden. Concerning nudity, i found this hadith:

Narrated in the Sahih Muslim by Aisha,

She says that during the time of her marriage with the prophet (s.a.w) she never looked upon him below the waist and he didnt look upon her below the waist. This hadith is then explained in further detail by Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai rahimullahu allai. He says that islam is the religion of modesty and shame, making much the same points that i have previously made. He says that a persons self respect is held in the covering of his body. He goes on and reminds us that it is not right to get totally nude when having intercourse with ur wife, as i too have previously mentioned.

Hazrat Umar once said that the prophet (s.a.w) made prohibited for a man and woman to get totally nude in front of each other. He said that it is shameless practice that will ultimately destroy a person's sense of modesty and morality. Rasulullah (s.a.w) disliked this act so much that he has actually enlikened it to the practise of asses cohabiting in public.

The fourth caliph, Hazrat Ali narrated 3 things from the Holy prophet (s.a.w).

1) Do not eat unless your stomach cringes with hunger. (this is explained in detail by Mufti Zubair Ismail who says that it will help to build patience and aid one in thanking Allah from the heart and also if a time ever came wen u run short of food, the u will be more able to handle it.)

2) Do not travel unless there is some urgent need. (he says about this that the more people u meet, the more the chances of doing sins are. Islam does not encourage making wide numbers of aquaintances, due to the fact that every person u meet, u are bound to do something wrong to them, for them, because of them or against them.)

3) Do not indulge in sexual intercourse unless ur desire is so strong that u cannot tell the difference between the earth and sky.(the reason that the Mufti gave for this was due to 2 reasons. One being scientific and the other islamic. The islamic one was actually another ahadith narrated from Abu Hurairah.

He, Abu Hurairah asked the prophet (s.a.w), Oh Prophet of God, how many times should one have intercourse? The prophet replied "Once in a lifetime". Abu Hurairah asked again. The prophet replied "Once a year". He asked again. "Once a month". And to the final ask he said "Once a week." He further asked then wat if sum1 were to do it more than that? The prophet replied, "He who goes beyond this does not deserve to be counted amongst the living."

The scientific one was that excessive intercourse causes a weakness in both the mind and the body. In this regard the Mufti says that the stimulus towars sexual desire should be analysed carefully. If the stimulus is found to be related to an external impetus such as the sight of an attractive, shapely form of a female, or a sexually inticing conversation, pornographic material etc, then this is to be regarded as a false stimulus and should be ignored. This is an artificial desire.

If on the other hand the stimulus is internal, the passion and desire growing from within, it should be regarded as a genuine desire and hence fulfilled and satisfied. Coitus due to a false stimulus results in weakness, restlessness and even damage to the vital organs of the body. Excessive indulgence in intercourse results in sexual and health disorders among these are the dreaded impotency and premature ejaculation, being the roots of many physical and psychological frustrations for both man and wife with far reaching repercussions.

Also if u do it as stated above, u will find more pleasure in it. In an act done once in a while it will be more special for u. By doing it for example, every night, the passion will soon die out. There will be no more "fun" left in it. Wen left for a while it is all the more welcome and special for you. Either the husband or the wife could get bored of each other for the same thing every night, so to stop this, it was highly encouraged not to do it every night. As it was encouraged that if u cannot supress ur desires with just one wife then marry up to 4.

Islam is the religion of moderacy. Going to extremes in anything is not wat Islam teaches. Even in sexual relations. You presume that it is an embarrasing topic to discuss, but Allah says in the Quran,

"And Allah does not feel ashamed of expounding the Haqq (truth)" 33.53

If you were to read the book called "The Etiquette of Sexual Relations" by Mufti Zubair Ismail Bayat, all of these points are mentioned, likewise in the book by Adil Salahi entitled, "Islam in the Modern World" and go to the chapter on Marriage. I hope i have not made any point too extreme for any of u. Forgive me if i have, my intention is merely to inform.

May Allah help us all.
Wasalaam.

[Roswell]

Salam,
I'm sorry i had been away frmo the internet, now i' back !
well brother Haroon, as far as contradiction is concerend , i think it is absolutely OK, we should appericiate such kinda talking which keeps us from the wrong thing

any way
now lets come to the points.

my bhai,
@ the start of this thread u agree that it is OK to see your wife naked

" I do not think that it is wrong to see ur wife naked "


Now, you are in favor of Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzaye....


"He goes on and reminds us that it is not right to get totally nude when having intercourse with ur wife, "as i too have previously mentioned"

let me clear to which side do u agree ??



Neverthless, the first hadith u had written

"She says that during the time of her marriage with the prophet (s.a.w) she never looked upon him below the waist and he didnt look upon her below the waist"

If the above words are correct then what doeas that mean "DURing the TIME of her marriage" ????????
did Mufti sahab take the right interpetetion ??



Second hadith

"Hazrat Umar once said that the prophet (s.a.w) made prohibited for a man and woman to get totally nude in front of each other. He said that it is shameless practice that will ultimately destroy a person's sense of modesty and morality.."

please do ensure me the authencity of that hadith with refrencing the narrator...
Hazarat Ali's 3rd point is obviouse the natural that we should go into sex when we need it.

Third Hadith

"He, Abu Hurairah asked the prophet (s.a.w), Oh Prophet of God, how many times should one have intercourse? The prophet replied "Once in a lifetime". Abu Hurairah asked again. The prophet replied "Once a year". He asked again. "Once a month". And to the final ask he said "Once a week." He further asked then wat if sum1 were to do it more than that? The prophet replied, "He who goes beyond this does not deserve to be counted amongst the living."

Also, provide me the sources of authentication of above one.


um,
i belive the FALSE stimuli is basically related to masturbation..........(plz dont discuss masturbation here)
but with wife it is OK either it is FALSe stimuli or right
but i do appericiate that one shouldnt do sex dailt, offcourse it is not good for ones another by physcial means

You've said:
" it was highly encouraged not to do it every night. As it was encouraged that if u cannot supress ur desires with just one wife then marry up to 4."

and according the the third Hadith, if a person marry upto 4 . then surely he will go beyond the limit as declared in that Hadith.
dats y i ask u to provide me the legal source....

my brother,, i strongly belive that Islam is the religion of moderacy, i mean it.....
surely goin in exteams is not the teaching of islam, i also agree that Oral sex(extream sex) is against the spirit of islam
but seeing nude spouse , excluded from the extreamism...

Regards





Roswell

[me_me]

slam all..well am ot a scholar but i think rosewell is corrct abt most of the points..anyway..i m not a scholar..but like i would like to ask one thing from rosewell that u started the topic urslef and u r giving answers urself (and correct answers what I think)<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>?...Allah Hafiz

[Roswell]

w.salam me me
well i'm not a scholar too,
offcourse i started this debate and i want answers......... we r going to get some answer........ pray us to get the truth
share your knowledge


Roswell

[Roswell]

Sheikh Haroon,
what bout this verse of Quraan

And those who guard their private parts [from all people] except from <h1>their wives</>h1 or their slave girls.


Regards


Roswell

[Roswell]

lols++
actually i want it that way


"And those who guard their private parts [from all people] except from their wives or their slave girls"



hahhahahahah
lols hahhahahahahahhhhehehe
i cant help laughing . lolzzzzzzzzzzz
this is awesome <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Mr Administrator Maulana Ronnie <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> plz delete the above one
hahhahahaha Maulana Ronnie

Roswell

[Hischam Khan]

Assalam-U-Alaikum bro,

You really want it deleated? I don't know, Kinda highlights your point, don't it? lol

[Roswell]

hahah, lols, just leave it my moderator brother
it just makes me laugh
:)


Roswell

[Guest]

Salaam brother Roswell,

Well i did indeed say that i do not think it is wrong to see ur wife naked.... my personal opinion. Mufti Nizamuddin says that it is not right to see ur wife naked. Ok fair enough we stand in a slight contradiction, the Mufti would know better. But u notice how i do not say that it is halaal and neither does he say it is haraam? Well i suppose it is sumwhere in between.

You will have to excuse me but it may take me a while to relocate these hadith and the source books from which i get it from. I dont mean to sound like im boasting but ive been studying the hadith for a few years now.. and i havent the faintest idea which book i came across them in. Forgive me and bear with me. Inshallah i will find them for u.

During the time of marriage..<b/>

By this im certain its meant for the whole actual length that they were married. What other possible interpretation is there?

Concerning the third hadith and the "contradiction" that u made with what i said about 4 wives, it means that that is the limit with one wife. I do not actually think it is a particularly strong hadith, to take it to haraam and halaal status, but it is still worth noting. Also, it was said that a healthy man can satisfy 4 wives. This is obviously dependant on the man. If he can just cope with one, it is better for him not to have intercourse every night but to leave it sum nights thus increasing the desires for both himself and his wife. I admit to u that the third hadith is not particularly strong, a weak one in fact, its not found in the Sahih Bukhari or Muslim rather in the hadith books of Muwatta. Theres no need to embrace the hadith to an extreme level, just bear it in mind...u know.... if u can.

[b]Second hadith

"Hazrat Umar once said that the prophet (s.a.w) made prohibited for a man and woman to get totally nude in front of each other. He said that it is shameless practice that will ultimately destroy a person's sense of modesty and morality.."

please do ensure me the authencity of that hadith with reference to the narrator...

This hadith is from the Musnad of Imam Ahmed and there are actually 2 narrators. One is Hazrat Umar Farooq and the other is Anas (may Allah have mercy on them both).

Correct me if im wrong but i didnt actually call it haraam did i? This is why i said that i personally didnt think it was a wrong to see ur wife naked, but i gave u a few points from the other side of the argument.

And those who guard their private parts [from all people] except from their wives or their slave girls

Well concerning this ayat, most scholars interpret the meaning as, dont commit fornication with anyone, save urselves for ur wives or slave girls, (or something along those lines).

One other point i want to make to u brother, u speak with utmost politeness, may Allah have mercy on me and u.

May Allah help us all.

[Roswell]

Salam,
first of all I dont understand this
One other point i want to make to u brother, u speak with utmost politeness
did u tanut me or admire me ? :)
any way i'm sorry for ...
Taking this ayat in general(common sense)
And those who guard their private parts [from all people] except from their wives or their slave girls
would somehow declares us that showing your naked body to spouse is not HARAM either...

Also, Hadiths are not in such position to decide HALAL or HARAM, it just only Quran which doeas tell us
Above line is referance from Tadubburey Hadith by Maulana Ameen Ahsen Islahi page number 2

I've study the Sharah(tafseer) of Imam Bukhari(Sahi Bukhari), Imam Muslim(Sahi Muslim) and also Sharah Imam Mota Vol 1, but i have not come up to that hadith that you'ad written

As far as this Hadith is concerend,

Hazrat Umar once said that the prophet (s.a.w) made prohibited for a man and woman to get totally nude in front of each other. He said that it is shameless practice that will ultimately destroy a person's sense of modesty and morality..

I have some comments , but i will not show you unless i get satisfy the authenticity and interepetation(nearly to common sense).
I invite the understanding-islam team or Al-Mawrid team to let us know about that one as they have been doing a great research work on purifying Hadiths
I cant understand why a person could get destroy his modesty and morality in being naked ?, perhaps I have low level common sense..

peace


Roswell

Edited by - Roswell on 07/15/2004 16:30:22

Edited by - Roswell on 07/15/2004 16:34:10

[Guest]

Salaam brother Roswell.

I said it out of admiration! I love it when people argue without getting harsh... something im trying to perfect myself. Lol.. Brother, i just want to say, these are not all my points, sum from various scholars and speeches ive heard, obviously i dont blindly follow them.... just a point of interest. U know this issue about the nudity, well its how u see it reli. When Hazrat Adam and his wife Hawa were thrown to the Earth, Adam told Hawa to cover herself, yet there is no real reason because she is his wife...

That was modesty and shame that was inside a person whilst they are in this life and world. When she asked whom she should cover herself from, Hazrat Adam replied from me and from God.

I dont think u should take any of these hadiths to heart, but it is something u should bear in mind. I personally believe that u should uphold modesty in absolutely everything that u do in this world. U can play with ur hoors in paradise...

May Allah help us all.

[Roswell]

w.salam
wow look @ the time i edited my post and ur reply, lol
The incedent you told me about Hazrat Adam and his wife, its hard to remember ..... is it in Quraan ? I think it is not. so brother , I will not belive it, correct me if i'm wrong
that bcoz we have just Quraan, can tell us truth bout such an ooooollld story
even in Hadith, I can hardly belive....
any way, i have to say that I dont take this(nudity in front of spopuse) as modesty or a unnatural way.
thanx for admiration, keep goin on <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> lols, kidding
i must confess you 've great knowldge about islam, and i confess that i've learned alot from your replies
Regards

Roswell

[Guest]

Salaam brother Roswell,

May Allah bless u and me! I really should remember where all this stuff is recorded so that i can accurately inform u. There are so many books out there, corrupt and decent, who knows which one its in? May Allah help us to find the solution.

May Allah help us all.

[shabana]

yep, spouses can see each other naked http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/cat.pl?c=Women