do christians believe...

[lucas]

Peace,

now this may not be the case with all of you, but i spend a lot of time talking with christian people on christian websites...and anytime i comment on anything they're always quick to bring up the "you're not accepting the truth!" bit...that doesn't usually bother me, but today i was told something that got under my skin a bit and i was curious if this is the same with all of christians...

do you believe that if you do not accept jesus(pbuh) as god then the wrath of god will be upon you?

meaning that if i don't proclaim him as being god, then i will be doomed and will not be saved?...is it a common beleif that in order to achieve salvation you must follow this belief?

peace.

[nr]

Yes, but accepting Jesus is different than what you expect. He is God, and, through the Father, the source of all goodness. The implication of this is that if you do good, you are communicating with God somehow but perhaps not rationally. Vatican II develops this idea with respect to their being no salvation outside of the Church. The possibility is there--the Church does not limit God's choice of who to save--however the Church also has not received any authoritative doctrine on this matter.

Although Paul says that we must proclaim that he is Lord, merely calling Jesus God, however, is not enough, as the book of James says.



Edited by - nr on 04/02/2004 02:31:11

[Jayman]

You will find a number of Christians claiming that you have to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior in order to be forgiven of your sins and to enter heaven.

However, there are a wide array of beliefs in the Christian tradition on this matter so you shouldn't take this one person's word to be representative of all Christians.

In my opinion, and as a Christian, the most important thing to do is live your life as morally as possible. A just God (which the Judeo-Christian God is) will not punish you unjustly merely because you have incorrect beliefs.

[Yahya Sulaiman]

Speaking as an ex-Christian, and one who spent maybe sixteen or seventeen years as a Christian, I can tell you that Christians have different ideas about that, just as there are some Muslims who think that when the Koran says things like, "The only religion acceptable to God is Islam," it is not merely talking about submission to God. Generally, the more liberal the Christian is, the more likely they are to believe that God will not punish someone just for disagreeing intellectually with a belief--in other words, believing that God is just. This fits with what we Muslims believe about Christians, that liberal Christianity is the only true Christianity (whereas conservative Christians ironically proclaim these people not to be Christian at all, as if they had some right to do so).

http://www.freewebs.com/ziggyzag

[Light88]

It is very scary to be in a situation/position of not knowing which is fake and which is authentic. Everybody around (so I observe) say "you are wrong, we are correct" worst still, if they go on to act for 'god" and say "you aren't saved" ! Yet, many of them preach 'freedom of choice' as long as others choose to be like them its ok, if not they aren't ok. So how do we really know for sure that Jesus is the "Son" of God, and you are co-heir of the kingdom prepared? when I know for sure that Sunday is not even the right sabbath which they are keeping and host of other changes,alteration, deletion, ommission, etc in the many many different versions of the Bible? and yet again do we think that all of the the million of "learned" Christian scholars are WRONG? and we are right ! ! Please know also that gone are the days of the Roman Catholic dictatorship example during Luther and other reformers' time. Scholars are now FREE to dig deep to ascertain for themselves what is truth and what is tradition. Sorry I am writing/talking too much. Yahya, what do you think?

ih882002

[nr]

Light88, you shouldn't care whether we are heir to some kingdom.


It is very scary to be in a situation/position of not knowing which is fake and which is authentic. Everybody around (so I observe) say "you are wrong, we are correct" worst still, if they go on to act for 'god" and say "you aren't saved"!
Yes, there are some Christians like that. It's usually an out growth of an once-saved-always-saved theology as "born-again" christians. Since these groups are aggressively missionary, your exposure to them is probably not in proportion to the number of Christians who believe this.


and yet again do we think that all of the the million of "learned" Christian scholars are WRONG? and we are right !!
I'm not sure what you mean by missions of "learned" Christian scholars. But anyways I don't believe that the Church ever renamed the day of Sunday as the Sabath, although we keep sabath on Sunday. Keeping the dietary and some of the other obscure laws contained in the Torah are not necessary, since Christians must keep the fullfilled laws.

The problem is that there is no exact mention of these laws contained in the bible; the advice given to us by John is that if our conscience does not convict us of sin, then we are not guilty. Yet this may require searching onself, along with knowledge of the sin.


Please know also that gone are the days of the Roman Catholic dictatorship example during Luther and other reformers' time.
I wouldn't call the Catholic Church a dictatorship.

[Light88]

nr

Thank you so much. About the 'old" Roman Catholic Church, I was referring to, I am talking about the time of the reformation and before that. Surely, you knew about the Martin Luther story and others. But I agree with you about my usage of the word "dictator" to be very insensitive, they weren't then (call it whatever you wish), but still the story of the reformation and Luther sent chill to my heart (by the way there was a movie about Martin Luther last month) and the Roman Catholic Church has a lot of answering to to.

About the millions (not mission) of learned Christians I was referring to, well, I was actually talking about the graduates in theology, divinity, missiology, ministry from many colleges and universities around the world. I mean Christians. Oh well, other faiths too have their own schools. Most of them (I am afraid I can't say ALL) are honest seeker of truth? why do they spend years in the seminary, universities, colleges to obtain degrees viz. Bachelor of Divinity, etc. AND ALL of them are wrong? or blind to the truth?

To tell you about me personally (normally I don't mix my feelings in my writings), right now I am so confused about which of the Bible are original and which are not. Hence, my alluding to the "fake" and "authentic" things. But let me ask you point blank (forgive my being rough again ok) who gave men the authority to change (omit, alter part of) God's Holy Words (the Scripture), anyway!

ih882002

[nr]

Why? While particular members of the Catholic church are not perfect, Martin Luther's anti-semitism in some of his writings make it clear that Martin Luther was no angel.http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/luther-jews.html Although I do like some of Martin Luther's writings, such as on the Tares and the Wheat which suggest a tolerant attitute, not all.

It's clear that Martin Luther was suffering psychologically. One of his writings even says to sin boldly.



why do they spend years in the seminary, universities, colleges to obtain degrees viz. Bachelor of Divinity, etc. AND ALL of them are wrong? or blind to the truth?

Education does not seem to be the indicating fact on whether one has the truth or not. I'm not sure what you mean by "ALL wrong." It's recognized that practically every faith has a part of the truth.



But let me ask you point blank (forgive my being rough again ok) who gave men the authority to change (omit, alter part of) God's Holy Words (the Scripture), anyway!

I see the Scriptures more or less as one book containing the Church's teachings, not the end all of God's word. Since these teachings were copied by scribes, allowance for minor mistakes in copying can be made.

[Light88]

nr

Thank you. I agree with you about Luther as human and the web site you provided from Fordham University which is a Roman Catholic University anyway. And yes faith is a direct product of a strong relationship build overtime. I was actually looking for the affirmation of this when I asked about how to distinguish between the "fake" and "authentic".

But I am still disturbed by the allowances of too much dynamic and freedom in the interpretation and translation of the Holy Scripture in fulfilling the gospel commission. I guess what I am trying to say is that many (for consideration other than the "truth", eg commercial consideration etc etc) willfully/knowingly alter the original message of the Holy Scripture to suit their own means. I wrote elsewhere that the Islamic stand is that the Holy Quran is intact PURE and unaltered. Although the Holy Quran is allowed to be translated into many tongues/languages, correct me if I am wrong here, the translated version is NEVER taken as authoritative or as a basis of faith. For the Christians, unless one is well read in Bibical languages viz Greek, Aramic etc, AND (not OR) he/she is an honest seeker of the truth [he/she adheres to the percepts of the Scriputre rather than make Scripture aheres to his/her whims), the ordinary Christians are at the mercy of the distorted translations or versions.

You know the Muslims/Islam has so much respect for the Christians. Islam calls the Christians "People of the Book" and place them, in their regards, way above other religions. I am not sure how is it from the other side (Christian to Muslim/Islam).

At the end, who knows. Salvation is the business of God. Amazing



ih882002

[nr]

Although the Holy Quran is allowed to be translated into many tongues/languages, correct me if I am wrong here, the translated version is NEVER taken as authoritative or as a basis of faith.
That's difficult to say. In practice, I don't think so. Not every convert to Islam can learn Arabic?


For the Christians, unless one is well read in Bibical languages viz Greek, Aramic etc, AND (not OR) he/she is an honest seeker of the truth [he/she adheres to the percepts of the Scriputre rather than make Scripture aheres to his/her whims), the ordinary Christians are at the mercy of the distorted translations or versions.
I don't think this really an issue unless if someone is trying to develop their own doctrines from the Scriptures. I've found there is usually Greek and Hebrew schollars who will publish writings on areas of contest, but you can really go only so far.

St. Augustine said that any interpretation preserving love of God and love of neighbor, yet is wrong, could not be considered a grievous mistake. In any case, God is within us, leading us to the right direction.





Edited by - nr on 04/04/2004 20:01:49

[Jayman]

Light88, there is a never ending supply of Jewish and Christian scholarship on the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and the New Testament. I recommend that you read as much of this as you can from many different vantage points and then make up your own mind. As Christians we can have disagreement over doctrine while still standing united in our love for God and love for all mankind. If you live your life in love a just and merciful God will forgive you of your sins.



Edited by - Jayman on 04/04/2004 23:13:59

[Lamp Of Light]

I will toss out my two cents:

the question :
Do you believe that if you do not accept jesus(pbuh) as god then the wrath of god will be upon you?

Jesus said things like ; "He who believes in me, that I was sent by God", and "he who loves me above all others..", and "he who does the will of the Father...", "I am the bread of life sent down from heaven", etc. So yes, Jesus says you must accept him above all else, and believe on him. He who loves Jesus loves the Father likewise. He who accepts Jesus, accepts the Father, and the Father accepts them. None who the Father gives Jesus will be lost, and none can go through Jesus except the Father send them....and there is the all inclusive. None can go to the father except through Jesus, but Jesus will accept whoever the father sends to him. This is the hole whereby one could potentially slip through. (ie: as a muslim, or a hindu, or whatever)...the point being if you do what is right and good and true, and you didn't somehow come through Christ, in the end, you will go through Christ anyways, the Father will send you to him at the judgement, and if the Father sends you through him, then Jesus says he will accept you. So I once again fall into line with what the church teaches on this regard, as NR pointed out already... there is certainly a chance for salvation outside of Christianity, for assuredly God saves who He wills. The question is more like what is the probability of that happening ? My personal guess is....it is probably about as many inside as there outside. Of course, that is just a wild guess, and I honestly do not know. I will always point peopel to Christ...because without a doubt, he is the life, the truth, and the way.





Blessed is the Lord our God!

[lucas]

Peace,

my understanding was that jesus(pbuh) was a servant to god. this is confirmed in the bible.

christians tell me that jesus(pbuh) who is god took the form of an imperfect human being, accepting all the limitations that being human entail and humbled himself before a seperate part of the truine godhead...the father. the submission to the father is also confirmed in the bible...but the idea of being an incarnate is not aside form ambigiously interpreted passages.

the bible confirms the claim of jesus(pbuh) having a god himself and yet the christians tell me that this is just part of his subservience.

this raises the question...what he is serving? if he is god, then what is he serving?

if jesus(pbuh) was the actual incarnate of god and he was to show us how to worship and live our lives, then why don't we follow this example by also humbling and serving the one who jesus(pbuh) did?

this is roughly the time when i am told that i am rejecting the truth and i am denying god.

islam teaches me that jesus(pbuh) was a servant...i accept this
islam teaches me that he served god as a humble prophet...this i accept
islam teaches me that he was strengthend with the spirit of god and performed great miralces to the glory of god...this i accept.
islam teaches me that the on the day of judgement god will say to jesus(pbuh), did you tell people to worship you and your mother as equals to me?...and jesus(pbuh) will say NO!, never could i do such a thing...this i accept
islam teaches me that god breathed life into jesus(pbuh) in the same way he did adam...this i accept.

christianity teaches me that jesus(pbuh) was a servant to himself...
christianity teaches me that he was also god and a prophet...
christianity teaches me that he performed miralces on his own accord but still gave credit to the father as a sign of subservience but still maintained his diety..
christianity teaches me that god impregnanted mary with his seed in order for jesus(pbuh) to be born...


it seems quite easy for me to decide, but yet i am constantly told that i am wrong and i won't be saved because of these things i accept.

peace.

[Hischam Khan]

Salam,

Well said! This is sadly the confusion in which the masses of Christians seem to lie in.

Peace.

[Hischam Khan]

Though it should also be stated that many are beginning to find the light (by searching for the truth). May God help them!

Peace.

[Minneapolis]

lucas
"do you believe that if you do not accept jesus(pbuh) as god then the wrath of god will be upon you?

The gospels teach me that Jesus is unlike any other man. But I have also learned to pray to the Father. Jesus didn't teach his followers to pray to himself. He even instructed them that he himself does only what he sees the Father doing.

Then, in Colossians, Paul writes that in Christ, all the fullness of Deity dwells in his body. There is very little emphasis on this however. I would conclude that Jesus will sit at the right hand of the Father and will recieve glory. But until that happens, we are to pray to the Father.

I have found no reason to doubt the validity of scripture.

Minneapolis

Edited by - Minneapolis on 04/07/2004 21:44:03

[lucas]

Peace Minneapolis,

you write: The gospels teach me that Jesus is unlike any other man. But I have also learned to pray to the Father. Jesus didn't teach his followers to pray to himself. He even instructed them that he himself does only what he sees the Father doing.

agreed.

you write: Then, in Colossians, Paul writes that in Christ, all the fullness of Deity dwells in his body. There is very little emphasis on this however

agreed. however i brought it up because it was an important part of the christian arguement that Jesus(peace be upon him) was in fact god himself, despite the fact that this is the only part of Pauls letters that allude to this idea.


you write: I would conclude that Jesus will sit at the right hand of the Father and will recieve glory. But until that happens, we are to pray to the Father.

agreed. islams teaches me the idea the they are seperate and that Jesus(peace be upon him) will be with god in heaven...along with the ones who are closest to god.

you write: have found no reason to doubt the validity of scripture

i doubt human interpretation of the scripture.


peace.

[Lamp Of Light]

There is plenty of reason to question the validity of scripture....especially when we have blatant conflicts.

The divinty is a paradox which can be argued both ways rather strongly, but again, Jesus always points to the Father....I have already illustrated that as well.

One of the greater problems I see glaring at us, is the crucifixtion. This is because the entire gospel revolves around it. Without the crucifixtion the entire gospel is garbage. Muslims say that Christ was never crucified, which therefore means the whole entire NEw testamnet MUST BE invalid.

This unfortunately leaves you having to make a choice. Either all of the gospel writers, apostles, and particpants in the creation of the New Testament are total liars....or muhammad's angel, or muhammad himself is a liar. I don't see how you can get around it. SOmone is DEFINITLY lying. There can't be any other answer. The Qu'ran denies the crucifixtin, and the gospel proclaims it.

One is a total deception of the truth, and I don't see how it could be any other way gioven the evidence and claims of each. It seems it is up to us to figure out which one leads to God(the Eternal Truth).

Blessed is the Lord our God!

[Saudi Girl]

nr, you believe his God then? ok lets see what the bible says what Jesus is : God in flesh or son of God or whichever:

"The crowds answered, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee."
(Matthew 21:10-12)

Hmm...so the BIBLE says he is a PROPHET interesting... ;)

Obey Allah and the Messenger(Muhammed peace be upon him)(Al-Imran)
~*~May Mohammed~*~

[nr]

Yes, he's a Prophet in that he shares what he has received from the Father. Jesus' divinity concerns the facts that he was not created and that he is perfect. But this does not mean he cannot perform the role of the Prophet, speaking what his Father says.

[Minneapolis]

When I referred to scripture I meant the Bible as translated from the Hebrew and Greek texts. I have never read the Quran and did not mean to imply that the Quran and the Bible are in agreement. I have heard that the do blatantly contradict each other at the point of the crucifixtion. I cant accept both because of that.

Minneapolis

[Saudi Girl]

Ah I give up the Bible refers to the word PROPHET when describing Jesus and theres STILL disagreements theres always a "yah but..." when it comes to Christians.

Can't they see it? Its so plain to see.

In Surat Maryam Jesus peace be upon him is made clear to those who were in doubt after 600 years since Jesus was sent as a Prophet that he was just a Prophet like the ones before him.

Obey Allah and the Messenger(Muhammed peace be upon him)(Al-Imran)
~*~May Mohammed~*~

[Lamp Of Light]

peace and truth be with you may,

I do not understand your reasoning... What does Jesus being a prophet have anything to do with divinity ?

Cannot God be His own prophet by incarnation through His son Jesus ?

Blessed is the Lord our God!

[lucas]

Peace,

Cannot God be His own prophet by incarnation through His son Jesus ?

are you saying be a prophet to himself? what purpose would that serve? does Jesus(peace be upon him) know that he is a prophet to himself?

peace.

[Yahya Sulaiman]

"Yahya, what do you think?"

What do I think about what?

http://www.freewebs.com/ziggyzag

[Lamp Of Light]

His purpose lucas, would be to fully reveal himself and his word/will for us personally...through the word made flesh, His Son, Jesus. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. All things were made through Him, and the word became flesh and walked amongst us.

Blessed is the Lord our God!

[Light88]

Jayman, what you said about the Hebrew, Greek "bibles" is obvious, but you know, wonders of wonders, they are actually (if you examine carefully) the re-re-translated forms/version from the re-re-re-translated or re-simplified versions of the already or much re-simplified or re-re-translated versions that is found everywhere. The result(s) is really amazing ! Now, now, that a statement of the problem(s). Whats the solution? [Surely, in this forum, when almost everybody brings out problemsss - there should be some suggestions or solution, right?!] What thinkest thou?

ih882002

[hungdiep]

Peace,

Regarding about who is not beleiving in Christ will be comdemded ...?

I would to quote the following message from Teresa Calcuta ...

Fruit of Pray is Faith
Fruit of Faith is Love
Fruit of Love is to Serve.

I believe who ever has love, has God Spirit, and always tend to server God and others because that is the final fruit. When I have God Spirit, I know that I am saved. I believe that God is Love, Ligth and Truth. Whoever truely looking for him will find him?

I believe that other religion's people will be saved also, if they have True God Spirit. The problem is how do I get to that point? How do I that I have the true Spirit? Pray to God (which God)? Pray to Jesus Christ, Budha, or Mohammad?

I believe which ever the fastest way is to get me to get closer to God, I am happy ...

How wonderfull it is to find Love in God and others !!!

[mule]

Hello Hungdiep,

You sound like you're riding the fence.

Welcome to the forum.

mule