Hischam khan - Let us build a foundation

[Lamp Of Light]

peace and love in truth,

First, let us talk about God.


What are things we know for absolutely certain about God based upon what the Holy Bible and Koran teaches us ?

I can tell you these things for certain based upon the Holy Bible.
please add to (or contend to take away) from this list based upon what the Qu'ran teaches you for certain).

Things we know about GOD

1) God is a living God (He is real)
2) God is omniscient (all knowing)
3) God is omnipresent (all seeing)
4) God is omnipotent (all powerful)
5) God will not lie to you. (He is trustworthy)
6) God does not change. (He is who he is)
7) Gods judgement is perfect
8) Gods power of creation and authority is through His word
9) God is a Spirit, and specifically, the Spirit of Truth.
10) God is merciful, long suffering, full of truth and loving kindness

This is enough for me to know. I can provide scripture to absolutely support all of these statements, and further I can make an irrefutable logic/reasoning support for it (which I am goign to do here briefly). If you have things you wish to add to, or take away from this list, then please do so.

Now here is the logical proof for God, which is what made me recognize him.

Truth IS God, it HAS to be, because truth is the fundamental monistic principle of all reality. It is reality itself. Nothing could exist without truth, and non existance is dependant upon truth. Truth is the only thing we know exists. So to deny truth exists is truly to deny reality itself. Further, truth is in synonym with God, and the bible even affirms to us God IS the Spirit of truth/God of truth. (Isiaih, jesus, exodus all attest to it and affirm this) So you can plainly see, you have a rational, logical, reasoned proof for Gods existance that is totally in perfect accordance with Holy scripture. Zing !! I hope everybodys faith meter went through the roof.

Peace and love be with you all.


Blessed is the Lord our God!



Edited by - Lamp Of Light on 03/09/2004 10:45:37

[wskanaan]

8) Gods power of creation and authority is through His word
9) God is a Spirit, and specifically, the Spirit of Truth.
10) God is merciful, long suffering, full of truth and loving kindness


Let's look at these three statements first:

7: You are restricting God's power to his word... whick we do have reference to in the Quran... but it does not restrict it...

Meaning... if God wills something He does not need to use his "word" to do it. To say otherwise is to give Him a weakness that he cannot have.

8: God is a spirit??? What kind of spirit??? Do you know God that well???? How do you know? God is the spirit of truth??? this is a strange misstatement. We do not know what God is... we do not even have the tools to come close. simply put... as is mentioned in the quran... He is unlike anything. No matter what you can imagine... He is not like it... our brains cannot comprehend Him.

9: The statements you say are true... but the opposite is also true. God is merciful... but just.. so he will punish thise that disobey Him.. and the examples are plenty in history where God punished disbelievers to extremes... take the ancient Egyptians that were drowned... all of the men... or the people og Loath(I think this is the spelling) whose land was overturned with all the people in it. This contradicts your view of a God so loving that he had to come himself to save the humans... or send his son.

[Hischam Khan]

Just to add a bit.



1) “Word of God”:



When the Qur’an says that for God to create “He <font color="#FF0000"> merely </font> says to it ‘Be!’ and it is.” It is explaining how simple it is for God. It is a portrayal of His Power. It does not mean that He is dependant on His word. Not even we are dependant upon our word. We have power even without speech. Just look at the verse again; the word <font color="#FF0000"> “merely” </font> should clarify its meaning.

Just to make sure you get what I’m trying to say; I will now show you a very simple example:

Two kids are fighting about who is more powerful. One says that I can “beat you up”. The other responds by saying “I can beat you with just one punch”. The first one responds; “I can beat you by merely giving you a slap”. The second kid replies; “I can beat you by merely touching you with my finger”. The first one responds; “I can beat you by merely saying “Be!””

If all our explanation fails to let you comprehend what we mean; I hope you understand what is meant by the above. Basically, what God is showing us is that for God to create it’s as easy as saying “Be!”; Saying “Be!” or merely making an order, or to just will something for it to happen, I’m sure that you would agree; shows clearly the Might and Power of the One that does it. So this is all that the Qur’an is portraying (God’s Might). It is not saying that God is dependent upon this word. Saying such a thing means that one completely misunderstood the sense in which this was used. I hope it has been clarified.



2) “God is Spirit”:



<font color="#0000FF"> “There is nothing that resembles Him” </font> (S 42:11)

<font color="#0000FF"> “There is nothing comparable to Him” </font> (S 112:4)

<font color="#0000FF"> “No vision can grasp Him, But He grasps all vision” </font> (S 6:103)


I think this tells us all. How beautifully God’s Transcendent Majesty is described and put into words in the Qur’an! However, what is meant by “God is Spirit”? Could it be that all it is trying to tell us is that God is not visible? Or is it trying to tell us that God is as the white Ghost like figures? It depends on what the Bible is trying to say. The Qur’an makes it very clear.

P.S – I like what you did by starting a new thread and this time trying to go over the points slowly and point by point, stage by stage. In this way we should be able to have a really fruitful dialogue (God Willing). This would be a real “Discussion”.








Edited by - Hischam Khan on 03/09/2004 13:12:59

[Lamp Of Light]

Peace and truth to you my beloved wskanaan,

Welcome to our construction of understanding of the truth.
Glory to God in the highest !!!
Use your reasoning and logic and seek with all your heart, and then you will obtain understanding and hopefully come to know God as I know God,and trust that I DO know Him.

Do you think God would not give us the capacity to know him ?
Obviously you can know him, but there is no man who can know Him entirely. But we can know him extremely well.

So we have arrived at the first paradox of understanding, but the truth is, it is not a paradox at all if you see the truth clearly. Let me try and show it to you. You are goign to have to use your mind for all its worth because we are dealing with great concepts and symbols. What could be greater then God ? Obviously nothing. Lets see if I can show you what I know, so we can move on in our construction with unified understanding of the truth. While we do this, we must only deal with things we know as truth. Where our truth contradicts, we will have to discard it, and only build wiht truths that are in harmony, and then lets see what we come up with. See if the total absolute truth from which we can all agree upon, cannot reveal lies to us, so that we will no longer be deceived. I am willing to align to the truth always. This because I know it is aligning completely with God. Lets see if you can see what I see.

Before I start. If I say to you "nation". You understand what that means don't you. It forms an idea in your head. If I say to you "canada". You now have a betetr picture of the nation I was talkign about, and you can associate manythings with it. You of course can never know all there is to know about Canada, but you can certainly know enough to recognize it for what it is.


I said :
8) Gods power of creation and authority is through His word
9) God is a Spirit, and specifically, the Spirit of Truth.
10) God is merciful, long suffering, full of truth and loving kindness


You said :
8: You are restricting God's power to his word... whick we do have reference to in the Quran... but it does not restrict it...

Meaning... if God wills something He does not need to use his "word" to do it. To say otherwise is to give Him a weakness that he cannot have.

I conceed, I consented to an appearance. You have corrected me accordingly.
I should have said :
Gods word is His will, and His will is His word. They are one.

Thus Gods will and His word must always be in complete agreement, or else God is a liar, and we all know God is not a liar. God is trustworthy. When He gives His word you can count on it. Further, the word we get from God is His will for us. Isn't it ? Can you dispute this ? Or do you acknowledge this as the truth ? It is impossible for it to be any other way isn't it ? It is.

So #8 should be changed to read :

8) Gods word is His will, and His will is His word. They are one.



9:
Q- God is a spirit???
A - Yes God is Spirit

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Q - What kind of spirit???
A - The Spirit of Truth

John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Q - Do you know God that well????
A- Indeed I do, and the Holy Bible fully affirms it in both the Old and New Testaments. Tell me you do not see "truth" all through your qu'ran. It is all about truth, isn't it ?

Q - How do you know? A - Because I was shown, born again of the Spirit, out of nowhere It came, like the wind. I left a personal testimony here (a brief one). You can get a true understanding of what happened to me by reading it. It has changed my life forever. I now have eyes with which to see, and the truth reigns in my life. I am even going to show it to you (God willing). Please, read John 14:16-23, then go and read my personal testimony.

John :
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


Q - God is the spirit of truth???
A - Absolutely without any doubt whatsoever. I KNOW.

You then say : this is a strange misstatement. We do not know what God is...
we do not even have the tools to come close. simply put... as is mentioned in the quran... He is unlike anything. No matter what you can imagine... He is not like it... our brains cannot comprehend Him.

My friend, if we could not know who God is, then how do we know who we are worshipping ? You know who God is !! You wouldn't be worshipping somthign you didn't know... Would you ? Further, do you think God is not going to provide you with the capacity to know him ? Of course He is ! He loves you and WANTS you to know him ! I don't know the qu'ran at all, I am really only familiar with the cow a bit, and certain other parts, but I am trying to read it as I find time. I am really counting on you guys to supply your side of the coin for our understanding. I did find this in it:

Quran: Surah - The Cow
147. The Truth is from thy Lord; so be not at all in doubt

and

Surah 4 - Women
136. O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messenger., and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.


Here is another chunk of Bible scripture to support our understanding :

OLD TESTAMENT:
Exodus 34:
6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, "The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Psalm 31:5
Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Isaiah 65:16
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

Jeremiah 4:2 (this is literally true!)
And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

Jeremiah 9:3 (people who lie do not know the Lord !! Because He is the truth !!)
And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.

NEW TESTAMENT:

John 15:26 (The Holy Spirit of Truth, proceeds from God)
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13 (here we plainly see the Spirit of Truth is HE !!!)
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

2 Corinthians 4:2 (the Spirit of truth will manifest inside of us.)
(aka: pouring out of the Holy Spirit)
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

1 John 3:19 (anohter direct reference to the Spirit of truth being HE!)
And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

1 John 4:6 (He is plainly telling you what I have been telling you ! I know the Spirit of truth!) We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 John 5:6 (It doesn't get any more obvious then this)
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.


2 John 1:2 ( For the sake of love for God...can you see it yet ?)
For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.


Psalm 91:4
He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

Psalm 138:2
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Proverbs 12:19
The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment.




You said :
10: The statements you say are true... but the opposite is also true. God is merciful... but just.. so he will punish thise that disobey Him.. and the examples are plenty in history where God punished disbelievers to extremes... take the ancient Egyptians that were drowned... all of the men... or the people og Loath(I think this is the spelling) whose land was overturned with all the people in it. This contradicts your view of a God so loving that he had to come himself to save the humans... or send his son.

You are not thinking clearly my beloved friend.

The opposite of mercy is not justice, it is rather ruthlessness. God is not ruthless.
God WILL punish those who disobey Him. They will get exactly what is due them, nothing more.
It is all about trust my friend. If God deemed a city needed turned over, then there must not have been one good soul inside it. This in no way contradicts a God that is loving. Do you believe God does not love all his children ? Do you really think death of the flesh here on earth is all there is ? I know you don't think these things. So why did you put the ideas forward ? Do you not know that God is our Father ? He wishes even those children who are lost to come back home to him !!!


Blessed is the Lord our God!

Edited by - Lamp Of Light on 03/10/2004 08:15:43

Edited by - Lamp Of Light on 03/10/2004 08:16:38

[Lamp Of Light]

Peace and truth in love to you Hischam Khan,

1) “Word of God”:

I think I have fully cleared this up in my above response. Let me know if you have disgreement with the correction and we will discuss it further so we can have a unified understanding of the truth.

2) “God is Spirit”:

“There is nothing that resembles Him” (S 42:11)

“There is nothing comparable to Him” (S 112:4)

“No vision can grasp Him, But He grasps all vision” (S 6:103)

I think this tells us all. How beautifully God’s Transcendent Majesty is described and put into words in the Qur’an! However, what is meant by “God is Spirit”? Could it be that all it is trying to tell us is that God is not visible? Or is it trying to tell us that God is as the white Ghost like figures? It depends on what the Bible is trying to say. The Qur’an makes it very clear.

By Spirit it means you cant see him, and it means that He is alive.
It does not mean the "casper the ghost" things your thinking of hehe
Now let me try and clear up the understanding here. If you truly understood what teh word "truth" meant, then you would understand that it fully meets all three of the the things you listed without a problem. I clearly showed you what scripture had to say, but logic and reason also prove it to us. Truth and God are synonymous. Let me show you.

You said :
“There is nothing that resembles Him” (S 42:11)

There is nothing that resembles "truth". Nothing.

“There is nothing comparable to Him” (S 112:4)

There is nothign comparable to "truth". nothing.

“No vision can grasp Him, But He grasps all vision” (S 6:103)

Nobody could possibly grasp all truth, but all truth indeed graps all vision. Absolute truth is all seeing, all knowing, and omnipresent, transcends time, and is required to establish perfect judgement.

you said:
P.S – I like what you did by starting a new thread and this time trying to go over the points slowly and point by point, stage by stage. In this way we should be able to have a really fruitful dialogue (God Willing). This would be a real “Discussion”.

Yes, I believe we are really goign to have a great learning experience together. I am very excited about this now.

Peace and love be with you all in truth !








Blessed is the Lord our God!

[Lamp Of Light]

Here is the proposed amended list of our understanding of Who God is :


Things we know about GOD

1) God is a living God (He is real)
2) God is omniscient (all knowing)
3) God is omnipresent (all seeing)
4) God is omnipotent (all powerful)
5) God will not lie to you. (He is trustworthy)
6) God does not change. (He is who he is)
7) Gods judgement is perfect
8) Gods word is His will, and His will is His word. They are one.
9) God is a Spirit, and specifically, the Spirit of Truth.
10) God is merciful, long suffering, full of truth and loving kindness

I also propose we add this one :

11) Our God is ONE !!


Let me know your thoughts, contend to take away or to add.

Gods blessings on you all !
I will be back tommorrow (God willing)

Blessed is the Lord our God!

[Hischam Khan]

Peace,


If you mean by “Spirit” that God cannot be seen; I can accept that at least to a certain degree. However, the “Spirit” that is supposed to be in you cannot be God. This would be a kind of pantheistic idea. So, that is the Islamic view. Of course my fellow brothers and sisters are welcomed to correct me if they think that I have misrepresented Islam.

In regards to the “Casper the Ghost” thing, I wasn’t actually thinking of that. I was hoping that the Christians don’t either. It seems from what you said that they don’t.

Concerning the verses that I quoted for you, I reckon that they are mainly expressing God’s uniqueness in His appearance. Hence, His attributes are given in the Qur’an but you will not be able to find a description of His actual appearance (what He looks like). He wouldn’t even give you a Similitude of what He looks like because there is nothing and no one that resembles Him. As such, this doesn’t mean that we cannot understand anything about Him. Of course we can. Had we not; then we wouldn’t be able to have any sort of relationship with Him.

Concerning God saying “‘Be’ and it is”; I think that we are in agreement as to what I said in my last post; that it is an expression of how easy it is for Him to do something. Hence, when God tells us that for Him to create “He merely says…’Be’ and it is”; He is expressing How <font color="#0000FF"> easy </font> it is for Him to do something. This is also made clear in Surah Maryam (19) where the Angel replies to Mary’s question (how is it possible to have a son with no man touching her) by saying:

<font color="#0000FF"> “Your Lord says: It is easy for Me.” </font>

Moving on to Jesus (P) being God’s word; I don’t think that it would make sense to say that he is God’s will (if that is what you’re trying to imply). Rather, he is an outcome of God’s will (command); the fulfilment of His word. He is a sign of God’s word and thus he is given the title “word of God”. Also, it would be wrong to say that God is His will. Again, this would not make sense. We wouldn’t say “I am my will”. But rather, “My will is mine”. There is a huge difference between the two. Furthermore, if by this you are trying to find out whether Jesus (P) is God; I think that it will not lead you there. If he were; then he would have to make it much clearer.

Peace.

[Lamp Of Light]

Peace and truth to you Hischam Khan,
Do not be apprehensive my friend. I am trying to establish truth. Doing that can difficult work. Believe me, I know that staring the truth in the face can be TERRIFYING. I also know that most people want to suppress the truth. I even know that the truth is not always what we believed it to be, and the truth really turns out ot be somthing else, but it is then the fool who continues to believe in a lie. Of one who knows much, much is expected. Of one who knows much more, much more is expected.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil, for thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.

I believe with the fullness of my heart:
1) God gave His children, especially those who have been baptised in the Holy Spirit, the means to establish and find truth in love.
2) That if we seek out the truth, with all our hearts (in truth and love), we will find it. It will still take a sharp wit and a keen eye.... you must be as wise as the serpent.

I know you are concerned over my presentation of Jesus and the word. You know I believe Jesus was the literal word of God(as impossible as that truly sounds to you). Tell me. I really don't have alot of choice based upon my conversion experience though... do I ? So obviously I am working to try to establish that truth somehow within scriptures. But that is not all I am trying to do. I am trying to establish truth. The truth does not lie. We cannot deny the truth. Anyways, you at least have to agree that the word and the will of God are one. I have clearly demonstrated that. That is why logic and reason are powerful tools in combination with scripture. I even acknowledge you have told me that they are important to you. Know that they are important to me also.

If our faith and religion is truth, then what should we have to fear from kicking at the pillars of its foundation to ensure they are solidly built of stone and not sand ? If our religion and faith are true, why then would we fear to examine it closely ? It seems that is what a wise man does, and especially once he has his eyes opened by God. Because the real truth here Hischam Khan, is that no man can confine the kingdom of the children of God. God saves who HE wills, not who MEN will.

So we seek (here and now) to establish truth and understanding that cannot be denied. This is so as to ensure that all things remain right and good and true for Gods elected children. Thus the man who hears can then speak "the word" in total confidence, knowing that his grip is firm upon the iron rod that guides us all to salvation.

I think we have described God fairly well that we can form a decent understanding of God. Do you agree ? We might come to other understandings later which we can certainly add/subtract as we go. We must always be willing to shift/align with the truth. As to God being spirit, doesn't the Qu'ran say God is spirit in it anywhere ? That seems strange to me. I believe I have clearly shown you that the bible says He is spirit. We can talk more about that later. I sort of wanted to move on to get true understandings on other important things.

If you are in agreement with what we have, and would like to move forward. I would like to propose us to come to understanding of why we are here on earth. Why is it that you and I are alive in this world of the flesh today ? We need to look at the creation a bit.
Why is it that you believe we are here ? Tell me what you know. Specifically, I want to talk about man, and what we know about him/us and our creation/fall.

Peace and truth in love.

Blessed is the Lord our God!



Edited by - Lamp Of Light on 03/11/2004 06:55:53

[wskanaan]

Lamp of Light...

Let us take it point by point.

The first point to understand is whether a human can comprehent what God is...

The answer simply is... NO.

God did give us logic and the ability to understand that there is a god that must have created this universe... but we do not have the ability to understand God Himself... we simply do not have the tools.

I will give you a simple example...
First of all let us agree on one thing... Gid is ALL MERCIFUL... ALL GREAT... meaning that when you describe something about God you take it for granted that it is to the fullest...

If agreed then let me ask you something.... what is the Greatest number you can imagine??? The very last number ever... the number after which there is no greater number. Can you imagine the greatest number.

Another example... can you imagine an end to space? The furthest point where space ends?

I don't think so.

So if we cannot comprehend things that God created... How do you expect to comprehend God Himself?





Edited by - wskanaan on 03/11/2004 07:31:12

[Lamp Of Light]

Peace and truth wskanaan,

As I said, we cannot ever come to understand God completely, but we CAN come to know God extremely well. (just like you could never know all there is to know about canada, you can certainly know enough to establish understanding of what canda respresents.)


You seem to want to deny that you can know God, but yet that is impossible. For if you could not know God, then what are you worshipping ?

Let us consider.

I ask you in truth, I already know the answer.
Is God good or Evil ?

Now, based upon what you just said, you should not be able to tell me if God is good or evil, but you know already don't you ? I do.

Can you dispute my answer ?? Here is my answer :

God is good.
God is NOT evil.
God has ALL knowledge of good and evil, but God is good, not evil.

Do you know God ? Do you know him enough to make the statement that I did ? I do, and I can supply scripture to fully support it.

It seems you want to say God is just there, that we know nothing about Him. Yet your statement simply cannot be true, because people obviously have understanding of God, and scriptures definitly paint a picture of Him for us.

Think like this : Do you know your parents ? Do you ? But can you really know all there is to know about them ? You can't can you ? And further, has there not been many times a child had a parent turn out to be someone otheer then they thought they were ? Many times. Can you see ? Can you understand better now ? You can know God, don't tell me you are worshipping somthing you do not know. Are you ? I am not.

Blessed is the Lord our God!

Edited by - Lamp Of Light on 03/11/2004 16:34:01

[Hischam Khan]

Peace Lamp of Light,

What makes you think that I am afraid? Do you think I am trying to avoid or suppress the truth? How did you come to make this assumption?

Like I said before, Jesus (P) cannot be God’s will because that does not make sense. Could you make sense of it? Are we just to accept something that sounds completely illogical? I think that since you and I are looking for truth that we can’t. Also, do you now agree that Islam does not support that God is His word and that this word is Jesus (P) or not?

You wrote:

“If our religion and faith are true, why then would we fear to examine it closely ?”

I do not at all fear such a thing. In fact, I think what you say is a good idea. Actually, one of the things that I get too do here on the forum is share my beliefs with others as I understand them. This because I feel they are true. However, if I am wrong then this will also be a good place in which people can point it out and help me find the truth God willing. Hence, I’m always willing to listen. Of course, I am sure you will agree that it is important for us to make our presentation with good manners.

You wrote:

“I think we have described God fairly well that we can form a decent understanding of God. Do you agree ?”

I agree that we have shared some good information.

You wrote:

” As to God being spirit, doesn't the Qu'ran say God is spirit in it anywhere ? That seems strange to me. I believe I have clearly shown you that the bible says He is spirit.”

No, the Qur’an does not say that God is “spirit”. I never denied that the Bible does. I agree with you in that it does. However, I feel that all it is trying to say by this is that He is unseen. I don’t see much else can be meant by “God is Spirit”.

Peace to all

[Lamp Of Light]

Peace and truth to you Hischam.


As per my agreement then, if we cannot find and agree upon what we are saying, then we need to discard it from our foundation (whether it is truly a good rock or not) So let us cast out from the list that God is a Spirit. You do not feel comfortable with this, and it is not supported by what muhammed says. So I will strike that from the list.

Is there anythign else you feel should not be on the list ? I would liek to add what I brought forth yesterday.

God is good, not evil.

and

God has all knowledge both good and evil.

If it is acceptable to you then I would like to add those understandings of WHO God is. If you can think of any more that we shoudl add or take away. Please do so. We want to create an irrefutable understanding of God in truth, to the best of our abilities. The more we can nail down as truth, the more tools with which we have to build upon our understanding in truth.




Blessed is the Lord our God!

[Lamp Of Light]

Peace and truth Hischam,

Lets move on to creation then.

Please add or take away from the list, based upon what the koran teaches you.

As I understand it these things are true about the creation :

1) In the beginning was only God.
2) Then God created the heavens and angels.
3) Angels were created with free will.
4) Sin existed in heaven at the creation.
5) God created adam man and told the angels to bow to him
6) Satan did not want to obey God on this matter (but had no choice)
7) God said I know what you do not and created the garden
8) Satan in a desire to show God that he was better then adam, decieved eve, and adam and eve disobeyed God as a result. (Of course God knew all this was goign to happen beforehand, and planned accordingly). then they were all cast out of eden and enmity placed between man and satan.


This was all part of the plan, a purpose God had from the very beginning when he created Adam. This is how God cleansed his new creation (heaven) of disobedience (sin). He had planned all along to utilize adam man to build the kingdom of truth and love, where ALL of his subjects were completely obedient, and not out of fear or force, but because they LOVE GOD. Such is the plan, I believe revealed to us.

One might say, "God could just have created the perfect heaven right from the beginning", but I say obviously it must have been somthing necessary to do it this way in order to give his subjects free will as opposed to making them mindless servents. So, if he gives free will, then there is the possibility for disobedience, but God doesn't want subjects who do not want to be with Him, or who do not Love him, or even KNOW him.

Truth be told, how could you come to know God at all if you did not experience evil ? How could you know what good was ? How could you come to appreciate the glory and majesty of almighty God ? DO you see ? How often is it that a man does not appreciate somthing he has until it is gone ? And the more opprssed and evil you endure....does it not make God the more glorious ? Teh more brilliant and shining ?
Do you see it ? Even in the end, evil must still glorify God, because God is greater then anything and all things must serve God, even those things do not wish to serve God, still must obey His greatness.

These are my thoughts on this subject, please feel free to comment /add etc

Blessed is the Lord our God!

Edited by - Lamp Of Light on 03/13/2004 03:02:07

[Hischam Khan]

Lamp of Light, please try to chill out a bit. You mentioned that you are real busy with a pregnant wife and two children but it seems to me like you have more time than any of us. How about you slow down a little? You are trying to move so fast from one point to the next. You bring so many criticisms without really giving much time for us to respond to the old stuff. What this means is that when we do respond; you don’t even tell us whether we satisfied your doubts because you are already busy with new criticism. In reality what it seems like to me is that you do not want a clarification from us but rather; you want to catch us out. You seem desperate to prove the man Muhammad (P) wrong. You are throwing a thousand red herrings at us asking us to “Catch, catch, catch” and if we were to blink we’d miss a dozen. Please cool down a little. You’re probably typing at the speed of light; man you’re computer may catch fire! Chill! Otherwise what we have is no discussion at all. How is possible to have a fruitful discussion when you’re in such a hurry; moving from one topic to next and one thread to the other?

[Undisclosed]

he is obviously out for one thing and one thing only, to recruit converts, it seems door to door isnt enough for christians now they goin website to website, and the sad thing is he thinks he can achieve indoing just that here lol (no pun intended) ^__-

[xp²]

salam all,


However, the “Spirit” that is supposed to be in you cannot be God. This would be a kind of pantheistic idea.

my understanding of the spirit/soul inside us is that it is something which as the Quran put it, a "spirit proceeding from" Allah.. it would not be correct to call it God because its source was God.

in similar manner, if you take a glass and fill it up with water from the ocean, would it then be right to point at the glass and say "this is ocean" ?

[xp²]

Anyways, you at least have to agree that the word and the will of God are one.


God's will is not an entity, just like my thoughts are not physical or separate, God's will is His choices, His methods, "His thoughts" you could say.


as for the word of God being God, well this is not true. the word of God is only an intermediary in which He sends a message to us. unless you think God has a tongue and voice box and actually speaks like a human?

if you mean to say that the word of God = Jesus = God. then we can do the same thing with bible or Quran, if Book = word of God = God... how does that fit? it doesn't

when Jesus is referred to as "word of God", it means he is the intermediary, he is speaking the message that God wants to tell everyone.

lets say if i get a microphone and a speaker, and if i talk into the mic, the electric signals go down to the speaker and cause it to make a noise, the thing you hear will be what i wanted to say..

so would it be correct to call the speaker xp?

[Lamp Of Light]

The speaker would be xp ....not the speaker itself, but the voice. It is not quite the same thing. I think what we have in Jesus is an anomoly/paradox.

let me try to explain .


If i made a doll that looked just like me, but was empty, and I put my will into it, would that doll not be a replica of me in its behavior and actions ? Its desires and wants ? its drives and motivations ? Would it not be able to do and know everything that I wanted it to know ? So the doll would look, act, talk as though it were me, and for all intents and purposes it is really me...isn't it ? Especially since it is forged with a protion of my spirit ?truly my fathers son then, isn't it ? More then I would say to my dad "I am my fathers son", for assuredly I have gotten some of my personality and nature from my dad, but me and my dad are not at all alike in our will/mind..ie: who we are. yet jesus is clearly , and tells phillip plain in John 14:9 (i think), that he is looking at the Father....he who sees the son, sees the father. Isn't it liek a projection of Himself ? a manifestation of Himself ? Jesus is definitely attached to God somehow. My conversion/revelation requires it. It was his words I heard. Like he was the literal word/will of God made flesh. pretty much exactly like John says in chapter 1.



Blessed is the Lord our God!

[Lamp Of Light]

my friend Hischam...

I know I am like an avalanche sometimes. Forgive me. I am telling you truly God is my life now. When I am not with my wife or working or with children I am with God in my thoughts and spirit. I am learning/reading/studying about God with all free time. I do not (very rarely) watch TV anymore, or movies, or play video games, or anythign. God is my life, and His holy fire consumes me. It will not let me rest. It keeps driving me like a taskmaster, yet it is comforting and sanctifying.

I will leave off for a few days, and allow myself time to absorb and settle. I have perhaps run my course anyways for now. I need some breathing room. As for me being here to convert... I am here to convert to the truth. If it is me that becomes converted then so be it. Let the truth prevail, for it is Gods will. The truth is from the Lord Our God.

Peace and truth be with you all in the love and light that is God.



Blessed is the Lord our God!

[Hischam Khan]

”I know I am like an avalanche sometimes.”

Lamp of Light, what I find upsetting is that you are now having discussions with several members and asking them the exact questions that I already responded to. Of course you have right to do that but why didn’t you give a response to my answers? If you disagree with them then you should say why. Rather, what you are doing is presenting the same questions that I already responded to and making it look as though I didn’t do anything all this time. It seems like all the long posts that I gave to you, trying to help you understand as you asked me to and at the same time willing to hear your response to my answers has been a waste of time. Of course it is not a complete waste of time but in the sense of your request it is. Then you go further in starting all sorts of new topics and telling me that you want to move on without having responded to any of my posts. Why then should we bother responding to you? How can you possibly hold us at fault for then seeing you as one that is out to criticise by hook or by crook? My friend, you are not being reasonable. So much I have posted and you seem to have completely overlooked it. Alas, this is not the first time this has happened. On the end of the day this only exposes the weakness of your argument. It is your unwillingness to give up a false belief.

So by the “Angel” that you cannot accept you meant the devil. How typical! So first you say that Muhammad (P) is lying (by telling us a lie will be exposed and by telling us that he is a wolf in sheep clothing) and now you tell us that it’s not him but the Devil. You’re contradictory arguments speak for themselves. Sorry, again it seems to me by these contradictory views and this unwillingness to respond to me; that you are just out to attack Muhammad (P). Man! You are taking the method of the enemies of Jesus (P) who said that he was driving out demons by Beelzebub. What did Jesus (P) reply? – He (P) said that if the devil is divided against himself that his kingdom will fall and that he too will fall.

<font color="#0000FF"> “Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. All the people were astonished and said, "Could this be the Son of David?" But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons." Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out?”</font> -Matthew 12:25

In the Qur’an God constantly warns against the devil and about following his footsteps. It also tells the believers to seek refuge with God from the Accursed Satan (like when a bad thought comes to mind or when reading the Holy Qur’an). This could never come from Satan because he would be driving against himself which is something that Jesus (P) tells us that he cannot do.

<font color="#0000FF"> "So when you recite the Qur’an, seek refuge with Allah from the accursed Satan."</font>
S 16:98

<font color="#0000FF">”O you who believe! Come, all of you, into submission (unto Him) ; and follow not the footsteps of the devil. Lo! he is an open enemy for you.</font>
S 2:208

Are you going to stop using the methods of the enemies of Jesus (P) and start following the methods that Jesus (P) wants you to? Like I said; Jesus (P) warned you very clearly:

<font color="#0000FF"> “Do not judge or you too will be judged” </FONT>Matthew 7:1

But it seems that your hatred for Muhammad (P) is so great that you lost complete sight of what Jesus (P) tells you.

Let me give just some examples of arguments that I already responded to which you repost though I already answered. You said that Jesus (P) says to Phillip that seeing him means seeing the Father. Did I not already tell you that if you think that such verses mean that he is the Father that then you’re committing what is known as an ancient heresy which is to say that “Jesus is the Father”? So you have no case. You should know that “seeing” in the religious Books is also used as meaning “understanding” (like “seeing they see not” or “they are blind”) and thus what is meant is that to understand Jesus (P) means to understand God. This does not at all prove the Divinity of Jesus (P). Yet another one is when you argue about “The Spirit” and the “Holy Spirit” and “Spirit of God”. What about responding to what I said on the matter? Why do you completely ignore me? After all you are the one that asked so I reckon that I have a right to get some feed back. Again “Word of God” – why not respond to what I already told you. I asked you before and at that time you were eager to move on; making it look as though we are agreed but we are not. So you shouldn’t be in such a hurry.
Well I have said enough. There is no point in me writing and writing just to find that I’m being ignored. Or are you ignoring me? It could just be that you can’t find any other way around my answers.

[Lamp Of Light]

Hischam I hate nobody. You are perceiving it as hatred because it is opposed to what you believe. I do not hate anybody or anything.

As to Jesus talkign to phillip (in John); Jesus is specifically talkign about his own spirit...don't you think ? WHat else could he possibly be talkign about ? Could phillip see his spirit ? this is the only way I can understand it to mean. What else could it possibly mean ? If I say I am my fathers son, that is true. I have inherited certain of his traits (and of course some from my mother as well), so I am my fathers son, but to say me and my father is one and the same spirit is not true is it ? I am my own spirit ? Accountable for my own self ? And I assure you I am very different from my dad even though we have traits in common. yet if jesus isn't talkign about his spirit being the fathers spirit, then what could he possibly be talkign about ? We know he certainly didn't mean the flesh and bones that was standing there in front of him, because we know that nobody can see God with his eyes like that.

Blessed is the Lord our God!

Edited by - Lamp Of Light on 03/15/2004 00:45:06

[Hischam Khan]

Lamp of Light,

The verse does not say "Anyone who has seen my spirit has seen the Father" or whatever you mean. It says that "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father". Now I explained that I think this refers to "understanding". When the Bible says "Seeing they see not" it doesn't mean that they were blind but rather they couldn't see what was obvious out of arrogance (they weren't physically blind but spiritually blind). What he is saying is figurative for "Anyone who has seen (understood) me has seen (the works/clear sign/evidence of) the Father". It can't be understood much differently because we are also told that the Father is "Unseen".

If you are referring to a bit further down those verses where Jesus was supposed to have said:

<font color="#0000FF">“I am in the Father and the Father is in me”

“it is the Father, living in me”</font>

I do not think that this is supposed to be taken literally. I see it as figurative. You should also remember the following:

<font color="#0000FF">"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be ONE, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in US so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be ONE AS WE ARE ONE: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete UNITY to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”</font> (John 17:21-23)

The above is very similar in its style. Does it mean that they are all God? Or is figurative?

Anyway, you are making it sound as though everything in the Bible that is ascribed to Jesus (P) is definately from him . This isn't really true. The words are:

<font color="#FF0000">(A) Ascribed to him by certain people

(B) Written down by the authors of the Gospel (who aren't very well known)

(C) Written as told not as quoted neither in its original language

(D) Written many decades after him

(E) His Gospel (that is mentioned he preached) is lost</font>

Hence, it can't be said with any degree of certainty that what the Qur'an says about Jesus (P) is contradicting him. Neither can it be said for certain that the words that are ascribed to Jesus (P) were really uterred by him. You can only assume that it was.

[xp²]

salam Hischam,

wether or not you are getting replies, they are not going to waste.. i enjoy reading your posts, and you make good debates and i learn much from you. so hopefully find comfort in the fact that you are helping me aswell as others. as our christian friend here has already said, truth stands out clear from error.

[Ronnie]

Salam Hischam & XP,

Let me echo Xp's post but inculding Xp's writings also.

wassalam

[Hischam Khan]

Assalam-U-Alaikum XP & Ronnie,

Your kind words are indeed very comforting,

Jazakallah.

[IronEagle]

Salam Hischam, XP, and Ron.
I'll second XP's comments to Hischam, XP, Ron and et al.

Ronnie (and all the other people in the project) thanks for maintianing nice site & forum to share information.

Peace and blessings to all the people on the forum.

[Lamp Of Light]

Hischam,

You don't think we are getting anywhere, but we are. We are accomplishing alot, I didn't even realize it myself until today. We have actually arrived at somthing pretty serious.

I told you when I came here it would be hard, I told you when I came here that we were going to come into conflict. It is unavoidable when we are examining these things. We will get through it Hischam, and we will come out friends on the other side. I believe this.

It took me until today to realize certain things you were saying, but your last couple of posts made me realize a couple of things. I knew you wouldn't let go. You are as passionate about God as am I. I knew it because I came to you in love, and you saw it was true, and so we embarked on a journey, and we both knew it was goign to be hard. God knows I love you Hischam khan (and all the others), that is why I am here. I had lost you in the darkness for a bit, but I am with you again. I have even grabbed hold of your hand once again, and I won't let it go this time. Lets finish this out. We are almost there. There isn't much road left to travel.

Blessed is the Lord our God!

[Lamp Of Light]

Peace and truth Hischam,

you said: Sorry, again it seems to me by these contradictory views and this unwillingness to respond to me; that you are just out to attack Muhammad (P).

I object. The truth is entirely to the contrary. My willingness to slide my position from one to another should only AFFIRM the TRUTH I told you when I came here... That I would be trying on different shoes to see how they fit to try and be objective. I am in a negative posture to you because that is how it is forced based upon my bias (beliefs). I am trying to get out of it, but I cannot, as I think I have been demonstrating in my posts tonight. Can you not see the truth of what I am saying right now ?


you said :
Man! You are taking the method of the enemies of Jesus (P) who said that he was driving out demons by Beelzebub. What did Jesus (P) reply? – He (P) said that if the devil is divided against himself that his kingdom will fall and that he too will fall.


Yes, that is right. Jesus said a house divided amongst itself would fall. But why is it then that muhammed wipes out what Jesus established ? I do admit, it seems like opposites means to the same goal. One via manifest fear, one via mercy and love. Can a man come either way ? Sure, because the beginning of wisdom is fearing God, the end of that particular wisdom is loving God. But why have the messiah tear down the punishments and establish mercy etc, just to turn around and have muhammed re-establish it again ? It sort of makes the messiah irrelevent, don't you think ?



Are you going to stop using the methods of the enemies of Jesus (P) and start following the methods that Jesus (P) wants you to? Like I said; Jesus (P) warned you very clearly:

“Do not judge or you too will be judged” Matthew 7:1


I have passed judgement on nobody. I am making conjecture and seeking deliberate understanding in truth with only love in my heart.
Let me tell you what the keys to the kingdom of heaven are: What you bind on earth, will be bound in heaven for you. This of course requires two or more...doesn't it ? Do you understand ?


you said:
But it seems that your hatred for Muhammad (P) is so great that you lost complete sight of what Jesus (P) tells you.

I have not lost sight of what either prophet tells me. I can see they clearly do not coincide. Muhammed tells you to kill the enemies of God. Jesus clearly tells you not to do this. (jesus tells you to love your enemies. Jesus demonstrates it by sacrificing his life for his friends. Remember, nobody killed him, he laid his life down willingly. It is also evident in his parables (do not remove the weeds from the wheat).) Also Jesus came to abolish the law(mercy not sacrifice), also to remove the worship from stone temple to the heart/spirit in truth. But muhammed undoes this by establishing punishments and law again, and by making his worshippers bow to...what ? A Sacred mosque ? God certainly knows what you are doing, and what you are bowing to. Muhammed even tells you so. Muhammed definitly tells the truth, I can plainly see that throughout his writings, and I am showing(God willing) where I think things are wrong...or if it is not wrong, then I assuredly do not understand it.

YOu said:
Let me give just some examples of arguments that I already responded to which you repost though I already answered. You said that Jesus (P) says to Phillip that seeing him means seeing the Father. Did I not already tell you that if you think that such verses mean that he is the Father that then you’re committing what is known as an ancient heresy which is to say that “Jesus is the Father”? So you have no case. You should know that “seeing” in the religious Books is also used as meaning “understanding” (like “seeing they see not” or “they are blind”) and thus what is meant is that to understand Jesus (P) means to understand God. This does not at all prove the Divinity of Jesus (P). Yet another one is when you argue about “The Spirit” and the “Holy Spirit” and “Spirit of God”. What about responding to what I said on the matter? Why do you completely ignore me? After all you are the one that asked so I reckon that I have a right to get some feed back. Again “Word of God” – why not respond to what I already told you. I asked you before and at that time you were eager to move on; making it look as though we are agreed but we are not. So you shouldn’t be in such a hurry.
Well I have said enough. There is no point in me writing and writing just to find that I’m being ignored. Or are you ignoring me? It could just be that you can’t find any other way around my answers.


I was never ignoring you Hischam. I assuredly don't want to give the impression we agreed when we didn't. I wanted to move on because we had enough info I felt to move on and gather more. ie: things from creation I thought we should establish (such as the enmity placed between us and satan, the fall, etc). I told you I would remove spirit from our list, and alter the list accordingly, because you objected. Also, I think the posts I have made tonight should have finally addressed these questions. If you feel I didn't, then point me to where you think I lacked to address it, and I will try again.
If jesus is bringing us only the understanding which God wants us to have, then it totally conflicts with the understanding muhammed wants us to have, and we have to choose which understanding then is Gods will for us...don't we ?



Blessed is the Lord our God!

Edited by - Lamp Of Light on 03/16/2004 05:59:31

Edited by - Lamp Of Light on 03/16/2004 06:01:06

[Hischam Khan]

You wrote:

But why is it then that muhammed wipes out what Jesus established ?

From the verse of the Bible that I quoted you; you have no choice but to agree that Muhammad (P) could not have been inspired by the devil. I think that you do agree. Now you ask the above. I ask you; is it not about time that you considered whether you misunderstood? After all, the criteria a man needs to fulfil to be a Prophet according to the Bible is fulfilled in Muhammad (P). Further, the criticism that you bring forward goes against the teachings of Christ and the Bible. So what else could it be?

What exactly does Muhammad (P) wipe out? I already told you that the crucifixion does not go inline with the teachings of the Old Testament and that even the accounts in the gospels are doubtful. Even if there are some changes made, which I think is very possible; this does not prove anything (that you’re trying to say). The Qur’an clearly states that it abrogates certain laws of the things from previous revelations. This would have been God’s decision and based on His Knowledge and Wisdom. Laws that were abrogated would not have been necessary anymore. Just because Jesus (P) didn’t fight and encouraged his followers not to fight doesn’t mean that this is meant for all times. You are misinterpreting and generalising something that is clearly not meant to be generalised. He was under the rule of oppressors and didn’t have much man power that would allow him to implement a law or to fight injustice so of course he didn’t. It is an error for you to generalise this. The Prophet Muhammad (P) too did not allow his followers to fight and rather urged them to be patient, to forgive and to overlook (in his first 13 years as Prophet because he too had no man power). However, when he had a state behind him; he was ordered to establish God’s laws (which he didn’t do in Mecca) and to fight injustice.

Just have a look at some of the Prophets yourself. Think about Moses, Joshua, David and Solomon; they were leaders of a state and fought. They implemented laws. This is obviously because they had the ability to do so. Now look at Prophets like Noah, Lot, John the Baptist, Moses (before he established a state) and Muhammad (before he established a state) and notice how all these preached God’s message but did not fight or establish any laws. This is obviously because they weren’t able to. So it is clear that it depends on the situation. Keeping this in mind will make it very clear that it doesn’t make sense to ask why there are differences between them. Their condition was different and therefore there would have been differences in the rules/laws that they preached.

You wrote:

But why have the messiah tear down the punishments and establish mercy etc

Like I already explained it wasn’t possible for him to do much differently. He didn’t have the power to implement laws of punishment. Was he the leader of the state? Of course not; so it is silly to ask why he didn’t give any laws like the punishments given by Moses (P). Sure he would have preached mercy and forgiving the enemy because he couldn’t do much else. The same was the case for the Muslims when they were in such a situation in Mecca. Are you aware of a single war or any laws of punishment that the Prophet gave in Mecca in his first thirteen years as Prophet wehn he was in a similar position as Jesus (P)? No. So actually the case was always the same. If a Prophet had little man power then he was only to preach the overall message of belief in One God, praying, being kind, peaceful and loving. Whereas if a Prophet had a state behind him; they would preach all that but also implement laws which included laws of punishments and also fighting for justice. Hence, actually the style was always the same.

You wrote:

”by making his worshippers bow to...what ? A Sacred mosque ?”

The Kabah gives us a single place to face while praying. It unites us. It is not what we bow to. We bow to God and even Jesus (P) did that. Of course you don’t bow in prayer but Jesus (P) did and so do we. Remember in the Garden of Gethsemane?

You wrote:

”I wanted to move on because we had enough info I felt to move on and gather more. ie: things from creation I thought we should establish”

Why do you want to gather more when we can’t even agree on that which we have? If you mean to say that “we agree to disagree” then that’s fine by me. But why then bring up stuff that I already responded to? Where will we get to when we start so many new topics and don’t even finish the ones we started? For someone that has a strong argument or the truth, it should not be a problem to stick to one topic and finish it before moving on; thereby showing how it is the truth. I would suppose that it is those that have weak arguments that want to present quick criticisms and move on rapidly to other topics so that the criticism cannot be responded to which in turn would make the persons arguments look good. If you want the truth; let’s discuss one topic at a time; nice and slowly. Only then can we have a successful discussion that will lead somewhere. Was it not you who said that we should be able to question our beliefs and scrutinise them closely?

You wrote:

”I told you I would remove spirit from our list”

What’s the point of doing that if you don’t agree? I thought this is about finding the truth not about pleasing someone.

You wrote:

“I think the posts I have made tonight should have finally addressed these questions.”

I don’t know what questions you’re referring to but you certainly did not reply to many of my posts. Now you expect me to re-post them which is not very easy at all.

You wrote:

”If jesus is bringing us only the understanding which God wants us to have, then it totally conflicts with the understanding muhammed wants us to have, and we have to choose which understanding then is Gods will for us...don't we ?”

Where do they differ in the understandings of God that they bring? Are you sure that you are not referring to your interpretation of what they teach. This post should make it very clear that they do both go hand in hand. However, I would also like to remind you of what I told you before; which is that we do not actually have the words of Jesus (P) but the words ascribed to him. So even if Muhammad (P) contradicts certain things in the Gospels, it could have several reasons (i.e. different circumstance or what he contradicts was falsely ascribed to the Messiah etc). Keep that in mind too.

Peace.




Edited by - Hischam Khan on 03/16/2004 23:43:51

[Lamp Of Light]

Hischam I have no more time tonight. I will try to address stuff tommorrow. In the meantime.

I will just point out that you statement Jesus didn't have the power to do anything is totally wihtout merit. He had the power of God at his disposal. He could have commanded legions of angels to do his will, by his own admission.

Anyways, I just want you to think about somthing you know is true. We both know it is true. Even Rima knows its true. It is somthing we all recognize. God is love. I am telling you this seems to be the dividing line, yet it is the commonality. You say Jesus teachings do not really conflict with muhammed, but I am saying they entirely do. We will have to examine it in more detail. In the meantime; God is love. He loves me, He loves you, and he loves all of his creation. this of course does not mean He loves what his creation does with their free will.

Peace and truth be upon you always my friend.

Blessed is the Lord our God!



Edited by - Lamp Of Light on 03/17/2004 04:01:42

[xp²]

<font color="brown">I will just point out that you statement Jesus didn't have the power to do anything is totally wihtout merit. He had the power of God at his disposal. He could have commanded legions of angels to do his will, by his own admission.</font>


did Jesus actually say that he has the power, will, and command to do all that ?? i thought he said he did as God wills, the God in heaven. meaning he did everything as God from above had laid out for him. i was under the impression that he was powerless without God from above.

[Hischam Khan]

“you statement Jesus didn't have the power to do anything is totally wihtout merit. He had the power of God at his disposal. He could have commanded legions of angels to do his will, by his own admission.”

Jesus (P) never had a state behind him. He had very few true followers. He was not able to implement a law because it would have been useless. From other Prophets (e.g. Noah) we know that they never came with rules (like punishment for theft, idol worship, adultery etc) because it would have been worthless. Nobody would have followed them. Only when a Prophet had a state behind him did he give laws that were to be obeyed (e.g. Moses and Muhammad). Hence, he never had the power to implement laws.

I never said that a Messenger of God does not have the protection of God. In fact this is what we Muslims believe about them. They all had the protection of God. Had anyone tried to harm them then God would have protected them whether through Angels as you said or through other means. This is precisely why we are saying that Jesus (P) was protected against the harm that the people wanted to do to him. However, this does not mean that he had the power to implement laws. In this regard he was indeed powerless. Would he have been able to use these Angels to force them to obey his laws or to follow him so that he could establish a state and implement laws? No. This is because God decided that for the purpose of the test on earth that he would not force people into accepting or following a Messenger. However, if after the time that they were given to accept the truth; they still denied, then God would punish them for their denial.

[Hischam Khan]

The following is a brief summary of our discussions (which went accross many threads):

Lamp of Light does not belief that Jesus (P) is God but that he is a part of God. He is like a copy of God or a copy of a part of Him. He is God’s will/mind etc. Without him God cannot do anything. To Lamp of Light the crucifixion is the New Covenant made for all mankind. In addition, he seems to think that this is also expressed in the Qur’an in certain places. For instance; when referring to Jesus (P) being the word of God or where it refers to him being a spirit of God and being strengthened by the Holy Spirit. He feels that being the Messiah is connected with the crucifixion and that therefore it is a vital part of his mission.

I have been explaining that there is nowhere in the Bible where Jesus (P) explicitly makes the claim of being Divine and thus it cannot be. Had it been thus, then it would’ve been necessary for him to make it very clear. He had ample opportunity to do so and never took any of them. God does not come down as man; neither does He send a part of Himself down because that would go against His perfect nature. His word is His but He is not His word. Similarly, His spirit is His but He is not His spirit. Also, the Qur’an also uses the word ‘spirit’ when referring to other than Jesus (I will quote examples later). Even God ‘aiding’ Jesus (P) with His spirit is not unique to him. In order to put a complete crush to Lamp of Lights view that the Qur’an some how supports a divine nature of Jesus (P), we need only to look at the verses that rebuke the Christian belief that Jesus is God and that God is part of a Trinity. Furthermore, it also states unequivocally that Jesus (P) is a messenger like those that passed away before him. Moreover, I argued that the accounts of the so-called crucifixion in the Gospels are contradictory and doubtful. I also explained that the crucifixion contradicts the atonement of sins that were made in the Old Testament (they were not the same).

Another difference of opinion was concerning the implementation of God’s laws. Whereas Lamp of Light felt that they were abolished when Jesus (P) came, I explained that he came to an oppressed people and couldn’t implement these laws since there was no state that would follow them. However, when Muhammad (P) established a state, he was the head of this state and therefore did implement God’s law. This means that Jesus (P) didn’t give his followers a universal law that was meant for all times (“resist not evil” etc). He only gave out what was necessary to aid his addressees. I also explained that Muhammad (P) and Jesus (P) have many things in common and that where they differ it is either because something has been falsely ascribed to Jesus (which is possible since the accounts are ascribed to him, were written decades after him and weren’t even in his original language or words) or that they were abrogated because they were only temporary.


Two verses that clearly refute the concept that Jesus (P) is God:

<font color="#0000FF"> “They do blaspheme who say: ‘God is the Messiah, son of Mary.’ But the Messiah said: ‘O children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’ Whoever joins other gods with God – God will forbid him the garden and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help.” </font>S 5:72

And:

<font color="#0000FF"> “The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a Messenger, Messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his Mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat food. See how We make the signs clear to them, and see how they are turned away!”</font>

The above makes it clear that he was a messenger like messengers that passed away before him (human).

The following states that Jesus (P) was strengthened by the “holy Spirit”.

<font color="#0000FF">”When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when</font><u> I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit”</u> 5:110

Just to show that the above is not unique, here is an example of the believers being strengthened with a “spirit from” God:

<font color="#0000FF">”Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and</font> <u> strengthened them with a spirit from Himself</u>. <font color="#0000FF">And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity.” </font>58:22

Hence being strengthened with spirit is not unique to Jesus (P).

The following is concerning the spirit blown into Jesus (P):

<font color="#0000FF"> “And to she who guarded her chastity, We breathed into her of Our spirit, and made her and her son a Sign unto the worlds.”</font> 21:91

Notice how the first man was created in exactly the same way:

<font color="#0000FF"> “Then when I have formed him and breathed into him of my My spirit, fall down unto him prostrate.”</font> 15:29

Hence, this again is not unique to him.






Edited by - Hischam Khan on 03/19/2004 01:35:40