Muhammed the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18??? [Archive]

DfndrOfTheCross

18th February 2004, 19:06

Now back to the issue at hand - may i also add i hope that both I and those i discuss certain issues with may be man enough to admit error where it is obvious. Admitting error proves that one is not so concerned about self-pride, and i truly hope if i ever come across an error in any of my statements (God forbid) i may retract it, and likewise for any of you readers.

I realise that Muslim apologists have been searching the Holy Bible from beggining to end, to find any trace of evidence for the prophethood of Muhammed, and rightfully they should, for it says in the Quran itself: "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;-" Sura 7:157

I realise that Muslims have come up with many many alleged prophecies concerning Muhammed in the Bible. Id like to deal with one at a time, starting with Deuteronomy 18:18.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deut.18:18.

Many muslims look at this verse at face value and immediately assume that this verse must be in reference to Muhammed.

Their reasons in simple brief point form are:
a) Muhammed was a prophet that came after Moses.
b) The children of Isaac are the Jews and the Children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are brethren to one another, thus Muhammed must be the prophet since he was an arab.
c)Muhammed was like Moses.
d)God "put His words in Mohammeds mouth"

Now according to each of these points, i have much to say. In fact point a) is obviously irrelevant, since Jesus Christ also came after Moses. Point b) i can raise inescapable facts, proving this assumption wrong once i show the given context. Point c) I can also refute to a great extent on one level, and on another level i show with an inescapable fact again that Muhammed didnt fit this criteria. And point d) I can also prove to be irrelevant.

Before i go into any of these, instead of wasting my time, i wish to raise one point that i believe is enough to end the discussion right here and now. However if you dont agree, i will eagerly discuss the points raised above.

The point i believe ends this discussion all together, is the fact that Jesus Christ already claimed that this verse belonged to him. Consider the following verses:

• John 1:45 "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law...."
• John 5:46 "If you believed Moses, you would believe me [Jesus], for he wrote about me."
• John 6:14 "Surely this [Jesus] is the Prophet who is to come into the world."
• Acts 3:22 "For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your own people....'"

Notice how in the fourth point the verse is actually quoted. (The New testemant often quotes the Old Testemant to prove where exactly prophecy has been fulfilled).

Please feel free to comment.
Peace.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

Vajradhara

18th February 2004, 23:33

Namaste Dfndr or do you prefer Andrew?

welcome to the forum. i hope that you enjoy your stay.

thank you for offering a bit of perspective on your views and what your purpose is here.

as a non-believer i must say that the "cross" doesn't bother me in the least... in fact, i'd have to say that i'm nonplussed about the whole thing.

i do like your wording "the truth as you know it." which indicates to me that there is room for your understanding to grow and room for us to have an actual dialog. this is all very promising to my way of thinking.

hopefully, we can be woman enough as well, to admit when we're wrong. i dislike throwing gender specific terms around when we are meaning to indicate all readers, not strictly one gender. this tends to obfuscate the point being raised, in my opinion.

now.. i hope that you don't take this the wrong way... however... Jesus didn't write any of the Bible.. to say that "Jesus said...." is fine provided that we bear in mind that it is through our inductive facilities that allows us to establish this and our inductive capabilities are constrained by the information that we are given to work with.

for your own information... i'm well versed in the majority of the Christian theological positions on these matters, so you don't have to start at Christianity 101, unless you really feel like you want to :)

though... if i may.. it seems like your stated purpose is to tell us the Good News. pardon me if i am not surprised... this is a message that i've heard plenty of times before and i'm willing to bet that most of the readers here have as well. though.. if you feel like you need to engage in that area of conversation, i shall support your efforts.

your other stated purpose is to tell us of the dire consequence of our rejection of the Good News. again, this is well understood by the majority of the posters on this forum. this strikes me as a modified form of Pascals Wager, which, you should know, is refuted by it's own premisis, in my opinion.

however... it seems like this thread is about debunking a prophecy in the Bible concerning Mohammad (pbuh) which i have little interest in, given that i don't believe that a single prophecy has been fulfilled... but that's because my criteria is quite stringent for these things and shouldn't be misconstrued as an attack on your faith.

~compassionately~

lucas

19th February 2004, 04:38

Peace,

deut 18:18 reads:
I will raise up for them a prophet LIKE YOU from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. (NIV)

point to consider: God says "LIKE YOU" to moses.

does he mean, they will look alike ?
sound the same ?

some aspect or trait of moses(pbuh), will be possessed by this "prophet". whether it be jesus(pbuh) or muhammed(pbuh)...right ?

ok, i don't know much, but here is what i know.

birth:
moses - usual birth, born of two parents
muhammed - usual birth, born of two parents
jesus - immaculate conception, born of a virgin

family life:
moses - married and had children
muhammed - married and had children
jesus - no wife and no children

writing of revelations from god:
moses - written in his lifetime
muhammed - written in his lifetime
jesus - written after his death

acceptance:
moses - eventually accepted as 'leader' by his people, in his lifetime
muhammed - eventually accepted as 'leader' by his people, in his lifetime
jesus - rejected as 'leader' in his liftime...accepted after his death

teachings:
moses - spiritual teachings along with a 'law' (torah)
muhammed - spritual teachings along with a 'law' (quran)
jesus - spiritual teachings...no new law given

it seems as though muhammed(pbuh) and moses(pbuh) possess quite of few of the same traits and characeristics where as jesus(pbuh) is different than the both of them.

or are we to believe that when the prophecy says "like you", its just a loosly used phrase not to be taken as 'he will be the same as you'...because i honestly took it to mean that he will accomplish the same things that moses had.

i would be very interested in seeing the similarities between jesus(pbuh) and moses(pbuh), other than the fact they were blessed with the spirit of god and they were his prophets. perhaps i am not looking in the right places.

again, i am not the most knowledgable person. i am just asking questions, hoping to find answers.

DfndrOfTheCross

19th February 2004, 06:22

Firstly in response to Vajradhara, thank you for your introducing yourself. Just in a response to a couple of comments you made, you said that Jesus never wrote the Bible, well this is true ofcourse, and I am aware of this, so when i say "Jesus said.." I am simply referring to what is the best and most reliable source (historically speaking) accounting for his actions and words. (Note i said historically - im not even using the issue of divine inspiration yet to validate the Bible). Its also my understanding that Muhammed never wrote the Quran either, and that the book was actually compiled after his unexpected death, due to the fact his revelations stretched over a 23 year or so period, and no one knew really when they would end.

In response to your last paragraph, it has confused me. What do you mean by your statement "i dont believe a single prophecy has been fulfilled"? Are you a Muslim? Because if so, you should be very concerned with this, as i quoted in my above post a Quranic verse saying that Muslims should expect to find Muhammed in the Bible.

Anyways i will contiunue with the issue at hand now, and answer the claims made by Lucas in my next post.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

DfndrOfTheCross

19th February 2004, 06:39

Hello Lucas, and thank you for your response.

There are 2 different levels in which i believe can invalidate that argument you set forth. I will start off with what i believe to be the least significant, so id like you to read my first point anyway, however id like you to concentrate further on my second point, since i believe it provides the real deal as to why Jesus must be the one over Muhammed.

Point 1) Now just as you Lucas, provided a whole list of various comparisons between Muhammed and Moses, i could do so likewise. Actually i could even in this post provide just as many as you and add a few extra on top of that. However, i really dont think this is a competition of "which prophet can compare most to Moses" as you will see in my second point.

Now first of all, your first 2 comparisons between Muhammed and Moses, concerning their birth and family life, really only go to show the true uniqueness of Jesus among men. For it is true with all men that we are born of a father and mother, and most men have a family life, so your first two comparisons arent really unique between Muhammed and Moses.

Just for interests sake i will list some comparisons between Jesus Christ and Moses (but note i will leave the IMPORTANT comparisons for my point 2).

On both infants death was plotted. (Exodus 1:15-16,22, Matthew 2:13ff.). Both were rescued by divine intervention. (Exodus 2:2-10, Matthew 2:13ff.). Both were revealed by signs and wonders. (Exodus 7:10,19,20; chapters 8-12; 14:21-22; 17:6-7; Matthew 8:14ff; Luke 7:11; Matthew 14:13, etc.). Mohammed never performed any great signs or wonders:"Why are not (signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Quran 28.48, Sura 6:37. Moses was prepared in the wilderness for forty years; Christ for forty days. (In Biblical symbolism forty stands for preparation). (Acts 7:23 with Exodus 7:7, Matthew 4:1 ff.). Both are called "faithful servant" in Scripture. (Hebrew 3:2-5). Moses liberated Israel from the bondage of their oppressors; Christ liberated believers from the bondage of sin (of which Egypt throughout the Bible is the type). (Exodus, Isaiah 53, John 8:32-36, Romans 6:18-22, 8:2, Galatians 5:1). We have reason to believe that Moses rose again (Jude 9, Luke 9:30); Jesus Christ without doubt rose from the dead according to the Gospel. (Matthew 28:14, Luke 24:34, I Corinthians 15:4). Moses was the mediator of the Old Covenant (Testament); Christ of the New Covenant, or Testament. (Exodus 19 and 20, Hebrews 12:24)

Point 2: The most important point.
Im sure you will all agree with me when i say that context reveals everything. What we discover is that when we look into the context of the verse within the book of Deuteronomy, we find a verse that specifically tells us what attributes were unique to Moses, attributes that no prophet until his time had ever possessed. This verse acts as the CRITERIA for what characteristics this prophet would need in order to be like Jesus:

"Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders... For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel." (Deut. 34:10-12)

Thus, From the Holy Scriptures we know that (1), Moses was an Israelite; (2) he was known by God "face to face," (3) he performed awesome miracles.

All of the above were fulfilled by Jesus Christ, and NONE of which are fulfilled by Mohammed.

1) Moses was a prophet from among the Israelites, and so was Jesus. (Jesus was from the tribe of Judah (Matthew 1:3, Luke 3:33). The Quran states that Mohammed was a prophet from among the Arabs (Sura 32:3; 36:6; 34:43-44)

2)Both Moses and Jesus were revealed by great signs and wonders. (Exodus 7:10,19,20; chapters 8-12; 14:21-22; 17:6-7; Matthew 8:14ff; Luke 7:11; Matthew 14:13, etc.).

Note: The Quran affirms that Mohammed never performed any great signs or wonders:

"Why are not (signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Quran 28.48
Note how the above verse even distinguishes the attribute of performing miraculous signs between Moses who performed such signs, and Mohammed who did not. Another passage affirming this in the Quran is Sura 6:37.

3) Moses spoke to God, "face to face"; so did Christ, on the Mount of Transfiguration. (Exodus 33:11, Matthew 17:3, John 6:46) and as such they received direct revelations. The Quran states that Muhammed received revelation from an intermediary i.e. the Angel Gabriel (Sura 2:97)

Therefore the prophet who must be like unto Moses, must have shared the most unique characteristics of Moses to be most like him, and this was only accomplished by Jesus who fulfilled all the points in the criteria.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

mule

19th February 2004, 06:54

Welcome to the board, DfndrOfTheCross. Your post is outstanding. :)Very glad to have you here. You will make a good lawyer. I can see I will be learning a lot from you.

MULE

lucas

19th February 2004, 07:13

Peace DFNDR,

thank you...i see where you are coming from and there were a lot of similiarties between jesus(pbuh) and moses(pbuh) that i hadn't taken into consideration. thank you for your response and if i have any further questions or uncertainties, i won't hesitate to ask.

may peace be with you.

Ronnie

19th February 2004, 12:20

Hello Defender,

It's a pleasure to have you here. I hope that we can have a nice dialog regarding this issue you've posed. I'll start by commenting on some of things you've posited: Part 1 The weaker comparisons:

On both infants death was plotted. (Exodus 1:15-16,22, Matthew 2:13ff.). Both were rescued by divine intervention. (Exodus 2:2-10, Matthew :13ff.).

I beg to differ.* Moses was not plotted against.* Actually, all male children were to be executed because Pharaoh thought the Israelites became too many so they had to be annihilated.* Jesus on the other hand was plotted against but escaped.* These can be found in the chapters you've given us.

Both were revealed by signs and wonders. (Exodus 7:10,19,20; chapters 8-12; 14:21-22; 17:6-7; Matthew 8:14ff; Luke 7:11; Matthew 14:13, etc.). Mohammed never performed any great signs or wonders

Other Prophets of God were given the permission by God to perform miracles, so this is nothing unique to either Moses or Jesus.* However, keep in mind that the greatest achievement by Moses was the Law (i.e. the Torah).*This we will delve into later.

Moses was prepared in the wilderness for forty years; Christ for forty days. (In Biblical symbolism forty stands for preparation). (Acts 7:23 with Exodus 7:7, Matthew 4:1 ff.).

I again differ with you on this.* Clearly you have misunderstood the verses.*Moses actually ran away after he killed a person.*Jesus on the other hand was being tempted by the Devil.* Neither was receiving this "preparation." As a matter of fact Jesus (P) was born a Prophet, Moses was not and this incident did not occur until he was 40 years old. Do you know when the Prophet Muhammad received his call to prophethood?

Both are called "faithful servant" in Scripture. (Hebrew 3:2-5).

All Prophets of God are servants.* However, it seems you are misreading the verses.* This is what it says:

He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house. Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. -Hebrew 3:2-5 (NIV)

Moses liberated Israel from the bondage of their oppressors; Christ liberated believers from the bondage of sin (of which Egypt throughout the Bible is the type). Moses liberated Israel from the bondage of their oppressors; Christ liberated believers from the bondage of sin (of which Egypt throughout the Bible is the type). (Exodus, Isaiah 53, John 8:32-36, Romans 6:18-22, 8:2, Galatians 5:1).

This is not really even a comparison.*All Prophets work to "liberate" the believers from the bondage of "sin."*Now, interestingly enough you almost reduce the "great" event that supposedly occurred for Jesus' to have freed people from bondage...remember the crucifixion?* Did Moses (P) have to go through anything like that to free people from this so-called bondage?*I think this comparison is way out of left field.

We have reason to believe that Moses rose again (Jude 9, Luke 9:30); Jesus Christ without doubt rose from the dead according to the Gospel. (Matthew 28:14,Luke 24:34, I Corinthians 15:4).

Reason to believe is not a comparison.* Besides where does it say Moses "rose" again?

 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" -Jude 9 (NIV)

About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. -Luke 9:28-31

This was an appearance of these Prophets, not them rising from the dead.*Obviously they had ascended to Heaven and came to see Jesus.* Besides how does this make Jesus and Moses exclusive in similarity to each other if Elijah did it too?

Moses was the mediator of the Old Covenant (Testament); Christ of the New Covenant, or Testament. (Exodus 19 and 20, Hebrews 12:24)

Moses was a Prophet to fulfill the Old Covenant, which by the way is not the Old Testament.*He was here to uphold the Law of Moses.* The New Testament didn't even exist in Jesus' time so I don't know how you can refer to such a thing.

Regards

DfndrOfTheCross

19th February 2004, 13:40

Dear Ronnie,

Thank you for your reply. First i would like to make the comment that i realise many of my listed comparisons were weak, i made it very clear that the point i was trying to make, is that if i were to try hard enough to come up with trivial comparisons between Jesus and Moses, i could easily match and even exceed the number of those listed by the previous poster when he listed trivial comparisons between Muhammed and Jesus (some characteristics common to both you and I).

Secondly, although you placed emphasis that such comparisons really arent of great importance, you failed in your attempt to go as far as saying that they werent comparisons at all.

As for number 1) I mean the fact is both infants deaths were plotted, despite the manner and difference of both events, tha fact still remains. I know its trivial, but i never intended these comparisons to mark my proof to why Jesus and not Muhammed is the prophet like unto Moses.

I mean i could go through all the verses you tried to explain in your own way, but its really irrelevant to the issue at hand. Just one more comment on your last point. The New covenant referred to is not the physical New testemant text, i think your confused, you see Christ birth brought the New covenant - a new agreement between God and man - a new way to gain salvation, and the verse indicates that Christ is the mediator - basically our defense lawyer of this new covenant, just as Moses was the mediator between the people of the Old Covenant and God as shown in the Exodus passages.

Anyways Ronnie, lets focus on whats important, and that is the given context. The characteristics that Deuteronomy lists that make the prophet Moses unique and like no other was that he 1) spoke face to face with God (not through an intermediary as Muhammed did) 2) and performed mighty miracles:

"Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders... For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel." (Deut. 34:10-12)

The text also mentions that Moses was an Israelite.

Therefore according to the context do i make my conclusion, that Jesus was indeed this prophet, since Muhammed did not confirm even one aspect of this criteria, as i proved in my previous post.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

Undisclosed

19th February 2004, 15:28

im sorry if this sounds stupid but even if the verse is referring to jesus and not muhammed, doesn't that alone prove that jesus was not 'god' or 'son of god' but was a prophet? christians can't have it both ways, jesus was either god or a prophet and the verse clearly says jesus was a prophet, if its referring to jesus that is.. could someone clear this up for me?

do some christians believe jesus was a prophet and not god?

salam (peace)

Undisclosed

19th February 2004, 15:54

Also if the verse is referring to jesus one should notice from the Gospel of John that the Jews were waiting for the fulfillment of three distinct prophecies. The first was the coming of Christ. The second was the coming of Elijah. The third was the coming of the Prophet. This is obvious from the three questions that were posed to John the Baptist:

“Now this was John’s testimony, when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Christ.” They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.” (John 1:19-21)

If we look in a Bible with cross-references, we will find in the marginal notes where the words “the Prophet” occur in John 1:21, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18:18.2 We conclude from this that Jesus Christ is not the prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:18

now Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac (Genesis 21). Ishmael became the grandfather of the Arab nation, and Isaac became the grandfather of the Jewish nation. The prophet spoken of was not to come from among the Jews themselves, but from among their brothers, i.e. the Ishmaelites. Muhammad , a descendant of Ishmael

Also, Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the servant of God, His “chosen one” and “messenger” who will bring down a law.

“He will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.” (Isaiah 42:4).

Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Kedar. Who is Kedar? According to Genesis 25:13, Kedar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of the Prophet Muhammad

Vajradhara

19th February 2004, 21:25

Namaste dfndr,

thank you for the post.

you write:

<quote>
Firstly in response to Vajradhara, thank you for your introducing yourself. Just in a response to a couple of comments you made, you said that Jesus never wrote the Bible, well this is true ofcourse, and I am aware of this, so when i say "Jesus said.." I am simply referring to what is the best and most reliable source (historically speaking) accounting for his actions and words. (Note i said historically - im not even using the issue of divine inspiration yet to validate the Bible). Its also my understanding that Muhammed never wrote the Quran either, and that the book was actually compiled after his unexpected death, due to the fact his revelations stretched over a 23 year or so period, and no one knew really when they would end.</quote>

Mohammad (pbuh) didn't write the Qur'an, as far as i know, your understand is the same as mine in relation to this event. as for historically accurate... we can leave that bit of discussion for another time. to my mind.. it's really pretty irrelevant if a text is historically accurate... the Illyad is historically accurate.. .that doesn't mean that there is a guy running around that was dipped into a pool to make him invincible.

we have the text. we should read and understand the text and the message it is trying to convey, in my opinion. i'll admit that much of this attitude of mine is due to studying the Tao Te Ching and the scholarly debates concerning it's orgins and author.

<quote>In response to your last paragraph, it has confused me. What do you mean by your statement "i dont believe a single prophecy has been fulfilled"? Are you a Muslim? Because if so, you should be very concerned with this, as i quoted in my above post a Quranic verse saying that Muslims should expect to find Muhammed in the Bible. </quote>

No, i'm not a muslim, i'm nominally a Buddhist. In my opinion, not a single Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled. now, i'll admit that my critera for ascertaining such an event is quite stringent, however, that shouldn't have much bearing on your understanding of your faith. further, i have serious reservations that you'd be able to convince me of "divine inspiration" of any version of the Bible... however, if that's an area that you feel would be productive, i'm happy to disucss it with you.

~compassionately~

Edited by - Vajradhara on 02/19/2004 15:30:08

Ronnie

20th February 2004, 04:56

Greetings Dfndr,

Here's the second part of my reply to your initial post of comparing Jesus and Moses.

Point 2: The most important point.

"Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders... For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel." (Deut. 34:10-12)

This does not mention Jesus. As a matter of fact Jesus did not perform any miracle that is anything like what Moses has did. Jesus did not perform any unique miracle that other Prophets had not performed before. So you neither have the actual likeness in miracle and you don't have an exclusive likeness in performing miracles in general. Many Prophets performed miracles, that's not unique to either Moses or Jesus. So I don't see the comparison.

1) Moses was a prophet from among the Israelites, and so was Jesus. (Jesus was from the tribe of Judah (Matthew 1:3, Luke 3:33). The Quran states that Mohammed was a prophet from among the Arabs (Sura 32:3; 36:6; 34:43-44)

Well since the prophecy specifically says that the "Prophet" will be from among the brethren of the Israelites I don't see this point as being valid. Unless you can show the impossiblity of the verse meaning such then this argument does not fulfill the requirments for comparison.

2)Both Moses and Jesus were revealed by great signs and wonders. (Exodus 7:10,19,20; chapters 8-12; 14:21-22; 17:6-7; Matthew 8:14ff; Luke 7:11; Matthew 14:13, etc.).

So what? Then just about any other Prophet can be compared to Moses. Why choose Jesus as the comparison? Performing miracles is not something that Moses and Jesus share exclusively. So this too fails to fulfill the comparison.

3) Moses spoke to God, "face to face"; so did Christ, on the Mount of Transfiguration. (Exodus 33:11, Matthew 17:3, John 6:46) and as such they received direct revelations. The Quran states that Muhammed received revelation from an intermediary i.e. the Angel Gabriel (Sura 2:97)

Moses spoke to God. Jesus did not. Let's look at the verses you cited:

 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" -Matthew 17:3 (NIV)

Now it seems that Jesus did not speak to God but rather a statement was made, which both Peter, John and James heard this voice. There was no conversation. Jesus didn't talk to God.

It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. -John 6:45-46

Again, no mention of Jesus speaking directly to God. Actually, if you read it in context, as you have mentioned, you will realize that all Prophets have "seen" the Father because they are from God. Is David not from God? How about Abraham or Elijah etc... This again does not fulfill the exclusive comparison.

With all due respect you have failed at proving how Jesus is even remotely like Jesus. I look forward to your comments.

Regards

Ronnie

20th February 2004, 05:29

Hello Dfndr,

Thank you for your reply.

First i would like to make the comment that i realise many of my listed comparisons were weak...

Actually, I meant to do a two part reply which I couldn't do last night. You made some points and you did make it clear that first you had the shallow ones then the more deeper ones were in part two. Well, now I have replied to both.

Secondly, although you placed emphasis that such comparisons really arent of great importance, you failed in your attempt to go as far as saying that they werent comparisons at all.

It's obvious that the issue isn't just "comparisons" but rather exclusive comparisons, even if they are "weak." So I have shown that you have not made exclusive comparison but that they weren't even comparisons. There is only one situation which I will get into later.

As for number 1) I mean the fact is both infants deaths were plotted, despite the manner and difference of both events, tha fact still remains. I know its trivial, but i never intended these comparisons to mark my proof to why Jesus and not Muhammed is the prophet like unto Moses.

I still diagree with your usage of "plotted." However, this is the one situation in which I will agree that seems to have some similarity. However, let me ask you if you are sure these are the only Prophets that were under these circumstances?

I mean i could go through all the verses you tried to explain in your own way, but its really irrelevant to the issue at hand.

I think your position is what takes a lot of interpretation of scripture. What I quoted and explained is simply reflected in the verses I cited. You may disagree and maybe sometime in the near future show me where I have misunderstood.

The New covenant referred to is not the physical New testemant text, i think your confused, you see Christ birth brought the New covenant

The point is that your reference of the "New Covenant" as the New Testament was inaccurate. I'm sure you don't have a problem admitting you were wrong and we won't hold it against you. Simply put, the two references have nothing to do with each other.

Just to recap what I've said above:

1. Jesus did NOT meet God face to face nor have a conversation with Him as Moses did.
2. Jesus is an Israelite, yes, but so is just about every other Prophet. That's not a unique comparison. The this "Prophet" that's spoken of could be any other Israelite.
3. Miracles were performed by other Prophets. Again, why choose Jesus when other Prophets performed miracles.

In all honesty, I can name one belief of yours that would bolow the entire comparison out the water. According to your belief Jesus is the "Son" of God. How do you as a Christian compare a mere man to the "Son?" Wouldn't one Prophet be compared to another Prophet, not a diety-man-prophet. That in itself disqualifies Jesus from the comparison. I look forward to your comments.

Regards

mule

20th February 2004, 07:30

Ronnie,
In all honesty, I can name one belief of yours that would bolow the entire comparison out the water. According to your belief Jesus is the "Son" of God. How do you as a Christian compare a mere man to the "Son?" Wouldn't one Prophet be compared to another Prophet, not a diety-man-prophet. That in itself disqualifies Jesus from the comparison. I look forward to your comments.

I don't believe you. Prove it. I want to see you produce verses that prove this doctrine. I don't think you can show me any verses that show the diety of Christ.

mule

Edited by - mule on 02/20/2004 01:32:09

DfndrOfTheCross

20th February 2004, 08:14

Hello everyone,

I have much to respond to. Bear with me as i try to provide some sufficiently detailed responses to all the claims presented.

My first response is to techkneekz first post: Techneek your post doesnt sound "stupid", it just emphasises your whole misunderstanding of Christian doctrine. You say that Christ must be either the son of God or a prophet and that we cannot have it both ways, well my answer to this is...WHY NOT? Indeed Jesus Christ was many things at once, and this is perfectly valid. Just to give you a brief run down, Jesus Christ (according to the scriptures ofcourse) was God incarnate i.e. he had a full divine nature as well as a full human nature, his divinity and humanity together in a hypostatic union, never mingling nor transmuting each other. God voluntarily chose to humble himself and accept the limitations of his himan nature, and whilst his divine nature was always present, he voluntarily laid aside his glory and his authority, and chose not excercise many of his divine attributes, so that he could fulfill the purpose he had come to fulfill.

So in that case, Jesus was also the Messiah (the Christ) and he was a prophet. He showed and had both characteristics of a Messiah - i.e. the annointed one who was come to save us. And he had the characteristics of a prophet - indeed he prophesied his own crucifixion and resurection even.

Anyways this is a whole new point and i dont want to get deep into it, and it would really be best if this discussion didnt evolve further and distract the true issue at hand which is Deut. 18:18. But the fact is Jesus was many things, and there is no reason why he could not have held all these titles in the one person.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

Ronnie

20th February 2004, 08:17

Mule,

That's pretty good :) but you should reread my post again. Are you claiming that this is not part of Christian belief? I always enjoy conversing with you but this is really bad on your part.

I don't think you can show me any verses that show the diety of Christ.

You're absolutely right, I can't ;) Now, tell me have you rejected Jesus as your Lord and Savior and your God?

Regards

DfndrOfTheCross

20th February 2004, 08:22

Now techneeks according to your second reply, i will only answer the relevant section concerning Deut. 18:18 at this stage, i already have so much to respond to. So we will leave discussion of this alleged other prophecy for another time.

REGARDING YOUR FIRST ISSUE:

One thing to note first of all, is that just because the Jews posed three different questions, that doesn’t mean that the prophet had to be distinct from the Christ. That’s purely what they assumed, but we find nowhere in the scriptures at all, where the Christ, and "that prophet" are made distinct. It is quite clear from the proof i have already given and the proof i will further give above that Christ was that prophet, he confirmed it himself!, and so did the apostles in their writings. But we shall discuss the trivial issue you bring up more in depth anyway.

Firstly, your trying to say that if Jesus was the Christ, then he could not be the prophet to follow Moses, because the Jews distinguished between Elijah, the Christ, and the prophet (John 1. 19-21). The argument implies that since John the Baptist is believed by the Christians to have come in the spirit of Elijah, and since Jesus was the Christ, then Muhammad, therefore, must have been the prophet. I have already shown, however, that it is impossible for Muhammad to be the prophet (in the above proofs and the later proofs). In any event however, nothing conclusive can be construed from the speculations of the Jews. They once said of Jesus: "This is indeed the prophet" (John 7.40). On another occasion they said he was "one of the prophets" (Matthew 16.14), on another "a prophet" (Mark 6.15) and worse still thought of him as both Elijah (Mark 6.15) and John the Baptist himself (Matthew 16.14). So they obviously had no idea of what to expect, as you can see from all their other comments.

It needs to be pointed out that the Bible does not teach that Elijah, the Christ, and the prophet were to come in that order. The questions put by the Jews to John, whether he was Elijah, the Christ, or the prophet, merely expressed their own hopes and expectations of figureheads to come. In the light of their confusion, however, we can see that no serious consideration can be given to the distinctions they made between the Christ and the prophet. It is also important to note that the predictions of the prophet, etc., were made in the reverse order in the Old Testament (the prophet was promised by Moses, most of the prophecies of the coming Christ were set out in the writings of the later prophets, and the promise of the coming of Elijah only appears at the end of the book in Malachi 4.5).

Furthermore no deliberate distinction between the prophet and the Christ was ever drawn in these prophecies and it is not surprising to find the Jews in one breath proclaiming that Jesus was indeed both the prophet and the Christ (John 7.40-41).

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

DfndrOfTheCross

20th February 2004, 08:26

REGADRING YOUR SECOND ISSUE: Let me give further proof that this prophet MUST BE AN ISRAELITE and NOT an arab.

Well you see techneekz, the verse itself says "I will raise a prophet.....from among THEIR BRETHREN".

The question we need to ask is, who is God referring to when he says "their", and then after we have established who they are we need to consider who their "brethren" are. To do this we only need to look back at the CONTEXT, you see the first 2 verses of the chapter reveal this.

"The Levitical priests, that is, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel ... they shall have no inheritance among their brethren".
Deuteronomy 18.1-2.

It is abundantly clear from these two verses that "they" refers to the tribe of Levi and that "their brethren" refers to the remaining eleven tribes of Israel, since its been established from the beginning of this chapter and confirmed as we read further on that the tribe of Levi is the main subject being spoken about in this chapter. This is an inescapable fact. No honest method of interpretation or consistent method of exposition can possibly allow that Deuteronomy 18.18 refers to anyone else than the tribe of Levi and the remaining tribes of Israel. Let us briefly examine the only possible exposition of the prophecy that can lead to a correct interpretation and identification of "their brethren". We need only accentuate the relevant words from Deuteronomy 18.1-2 to discover the only possible conclusion that can be drawn. The text reads:

"The tribe of Levi shall have no inheritance with ISRAEL. They shall have no inheritance among THEIR BRETHEREN".

Therefore the only logical interpretation of Deuteronomy 18.18 can be: "I will raise up for them (that is, the tribe of Levi) a prophet like you from among their brethren (that is, one of the other tribes of Israel)".

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

DfndrOfTheCross

20th February 2004, 08:29

In response to Vajradhara:

Well obviously then it seems this particular topic is not suited for you to discuss. I mean to have theological discussion with a buddhist would revolve around completely different issues as trying to prove the existence of God in the first place. So i think i'll it there, and maybe next time we can discuss such things, maybe if i can have your email, id be interested in discussing it with you personally.

Anyways back to responding to the relevant issues at hand.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

mule

20th February 2004, 08:54

Ronnie,What is bad? I'm not good at being tricky.

Now, tell me have you rejected Jesus as your Lord and Savior and your God?

No, I have not rejected my Jesus. I just said you could not show me any verses about the diety of Jesus. I was not talking about my own abilities or beliefs. I should have said you won't show me any verses about the diety of Jesus.

mule

DfndrOfTheCross

20th February 2004, 09:10

Dear Ronnie

Do not be offended but i believe the arguments you present are very weak, and you misunderstand alot of things, i hope you can bear with me as i reply to every point you make:

First of all, are you trying to distinguish the prophethood of Muhammed and Jesus, to see who best fits the criteria, or are you merely trying to say that any Jewish prophet could have fulfilled this? Well in any event this is how my logic works, and so far i have seen no logic in your words.

My logic goes like this: 1) Jesus claimed to be the prophet spoken about by Moses, the apostles confirmed this, they even quoted the exact Deuteronomy verse. Thus to validate this, we go back to the verse and see if indeed Jesus did fulfill the criteria, which indeed he has. My first proofs about his likeness you tried to refute - which i will gladyly counteract in the following. And above in my response to techneek i have clearly shown that this prophet must be an Israelite - so any form of argument for Muhammed at this stage is invalid, and now my case with you lies in trying to prove that it was Christ.

I will put your quotations in between "XXXXX" and i will reply after the second "XXXX"

XXXXX
You say: This does not mention Jesus. As a matter of fact Jesus did not perform any miracle that is anything like what Moses has did. Jesus did not perform any unique miracle that other Prophets had not performed before. So you neither have the actual likeness in miracle and you don't have an exclusive likeness in performing miracles in general. Many Prophets performed miracles, that's not unique to either Moses or Jesus. So I don't see the comparison.
XXXXX

Well i dont think anyone has ever been prophesied by name and nor do they need to be, so the fact the verse doesnt mention the name Jesus is just weak. Second of all the verse doesnt state that this prophet had to perform miracles LIKE Moses, it is the power and might of performing such miracles that will be common between them. And anyways although its irrelevant Jesus did in fact perform miracles like Moses: The water was subject to the authority of both: (The Red Sea to Moses; the Sea of Galilee to Christ). (Exodus 14:21, 17:6, Matthew 14:22ff., John 6:16ff., Matthew 8:18)

XXXXX
you say: Well since the prophecy specifically says that the "Prophet" will be from among the brethren of the Israelites I don't see this point as being valid. Unless you can show the impossiblity of the verse meaning such then this argument does not fulfill the requirments for comparison.
XXXXX

Well read my second reply to techneeks above and you will see i have clearly shown how in context the subject being referred to as "their" is the Levi tribe, and their "brethren" are the remaining tribes of Isreal - take a careful read, its an undisputable argument that one.

XXXXX
So what? Then just about any other Prophet can be compared to Moses. Why choose Jesus as the comparison? Performing miracles is not something that Moses and Jesus share exclusively. So this too fails to fulfill the comparison.
XXXXX

Well you show me one prophet that performed such mighty and great miracles that could compare to Moses as Jesus did, performed by their own hands, having authority over nature itself. And in any event, what other prophet claimed to fulfill this prophecy? You see when a biblical prophecy is been fulfilled the Bible makes it clear when and who by. If a prophecy is yet to be fulfulled nothing is said. So Jesus is the only one claiming this prophecy, and secondly there is still other criteria we have yet to discuss which no other prophets fulfill.

Now the issue of speaking FACE TO FACE with God.

First of all if you read the verse CAREFULLY, it mentions nothing about SPEAKING to God face to face. It says whom the Lord KNEW face to face. i.e. The prophet and the Lord were confronted face to face.

Matthew 17 is a chapter that recounts the event of the transfiugration. To encounter God the Father face to face Jesus had to regain the glory he once had before he became incarnate, thus his face shone like the Sun and his clothes became as white as light, so he met God the Father face to face.

John 6:45-46 Clearly shows that Jesus had directly seen the Father and knows him through a direct relationship i.e. face to face.
". No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father."

Now the thing to note is, when Jesus says "except the one who is from God" he is actually referring to himself specifically, and not merely anyone from God. Lets look at the verse in context of another verse which emphasises this more clearly:

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." John 1:18. So not only did Jesus know God the Father as direct as face to face, he knew him in such a way that he was a direct declaration of Him.

I tell you this no other prophet has seen God, not one. No one that comes from God can see God. Actually Jesus Christ was the only one who claimed to be sent forth directly from God. The other prophets were just called upon by God to speak as prophets. But the scriptures make it clear that no man can see God else he turn to dust because no one can witness the glory of God. Only Moses and Jesus Christ the son, were given this privelege.

With all due respect, no one has ever claimed Moses spoke of them, and fulfilled the criteria of being an israelite, performing GREAT miracles, and knowing God face to face...except our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will now respond to your second post.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

Ronnie

20th February 2004, 09:12

Dfndr,

One thing to note first of all, is that just because the Jews posed three different questions, that doesn’t mean that the prophet had to be distinct from the Christ.

I find tremendous fault with your reasoning. Why would the Jews ask one person regarding 3 personalities? Not to mention that to each of the personalities the reply is no. You have to establish your premise that the Jews somehow didn't know that these personalities are the same and not distinguished. Why would you then assume that Elijah, the Christ and that Prophet not be the same? I simply will look at Biblical passages to see if they support your position. If they do then I will admit that I misunderstood but if not then I hope you will grant me the same courtesy. The Bible says:

Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of
Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to
confess, but confessed freely, "I am not the Christ."

They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"

He said, "I am not."

"Are you the Prophet?"

He answered, "No."

Finally they said, "Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those
who sent us. What do you say about yourself?"

John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one
calling in the desert, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.' "

Now some Pharisees who had been sent questioned him, "Why then do you
baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"

 -John 1:19-25 (NIV)

The Prophet is from the Christ and Elijah, this is beyond a shadow of doubt. The verses are clear. There is no interpretation here, it says what it says. However, you'd have us believe that the Prophet and Christ are the same thing. You have yet to establish this from the scripture. Another Bible verse:

On hearing his words, some of the people said,
"Surely this man is the Prophet."

Others said, "He is the Christ."

 -John 7:40 (NIV)

Some people thought Jesus was the Christ other thought he was the Prophet. How do you arrive at the conclusion that this is the same person? The Bible is absolutely clear on this but you want to interpret it as you believe. I await your evidence as to why you believe so. You quoted another verse to bloster your point:

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets[/b]." -Matthew 16:13-14

This has no mention of the Christ or the Prophet. It is obvious that Jesus was a prophet of God and the Jews thought that he may have been one of the prophets of God that returned. I'm sure you know the prophecy dealing with Elijah.

So far none of these support your claims. You have to show that the Prophet is one and the same as Jesus.

I have already shown, however, that it is impossible for Muhammad to be the prophet (in the above proofs and the later proofs). In any event however, nothing conclusive can be construed from the speculations of the Jews.

You have shown no such thing. No offense.

Furthermore no deliberate distinction between the prophet and the Christ was ever drawn in these prophecies and it is not surprising to find the Jews in one breath proclaiming that Jesus was indeed both the prophet and the Christ (John 7.40-41).

I think I've shown above that you are clearly wrong on this point.

Regards

DfndrOfTheCross

20th February 2004, 09:23

I'll just skip all the irrelevant issues which need no further discussions.

Skipping right along to first your comment on the New covenant/Testemant. When i referred to the New Testemant i specifically said "New Testemant or covenant" to specifically imply that what im refferring to his the "agreement between mankind and God" and not the actual New Testemant text, for those readers who may be confused with the terminology. I mean Testemant and Covenant are to similar words anyway, thats why i specifically mentioned both. So i wont admit fault to anything, since the issues is purely a case of misunderstanding on your behalf, or weak presentation on my behalf, but in any event i know what i meant.

Just to recap my position.

- Jesus WAS known to God the Father face to face, no man has seen the Father in all his glory except He who declared him - the only begotten Son Jesus Christ. As i have clearly supported with an extra reference above.

-Jesus was the only ISraelite who CLAIMED that he was the one spoken of by Moses, who performed GREAT miracles, AND had known God face to face.

-Why do i choose Jesus over otehr prophets when others performed miracles? well firstly no one performed miracles as great as Jesus - but this is not the significant issue. I choose Jesus because of my point 1 and point 2 above, reread them just for emphasis.

Your concluding remarks hold no relevance at all. The comparisons been made are upon the prophethood of both, and not extending to any other issue such as deity or any of the kind. As i said in my first post to techneek, Jesus held many titles, and indeed he claimed the many titles, one being that of a prophet - which is what is relevant to this topic at the moment.

God Bless. Peace.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

DfndrOfTheCross

20th February 2004, 09:42

Dearesr Ronnie...*sigh*

If you read my whole post word for word, im sure you wouldnt have replied the way you did.

You tell me that the i have to establish my premise that the Jews somehow did not know that these personalities are the same and not distingushed..Well i clearly showed how the Jews had no idea of what to expect, the confusion and variety in their expectations in all the verses i states clearly establish this premise.

"They once said of Jesus: "This is indeed the prophet" (John 7.40). On another occasion they said he was "one of the prophets" (Matthew 16.14), on another "a prophet" (Mark 6.15) and worse still thought of him as both Elijah (Mark 6.15) and John the Baptist himself (Matthew 16.14)"

You said in your post, that some Jews thought Jesus was a prophet and some thought he was the Christ, so how do i arrive at the conclusion that he is both? Well Because a) he fit the criteria for both b) he excecrcised attributes of both c) most importantly he CLAIMED TO BE BOTH and he was said to be both!:

Lets have a look:

Jesus is a prophet:

John 5:46 "If you believed Moses, you would believe me [Jesus], for he wrote about me."

"A great prophet has risen among us" (Lk 7:16)

Luke 13:33 "In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day--for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

John 1:45 "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law...."

Acts 3:22 "For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your own people....'" - This is in reference to Jesus.

Jesus The Christ:

Matthew 16:16-17 "Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[2] the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

I have much more quotattions for Jesus as the Christ, but i dont think there is need.

Therefore in conclusion, the speculation and assumption of the Jews does not in anyway indicate that there are three distinct people. Surely this can be seen in their confusion as shown in their quotations, some thought he was a resurrected prophet, some thought he was 2 or 3 things simultaneously.

The fact of the matter is, the scriptures themselves in the OT make no distinction between the Christ and the prophet. Jesus indeed claimed to be both, it was written by the apostles inspired by the Holy Spirit that he was both. He showed signs of both. He is both.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

Ronnie

20th February 2004, 10:50

Dfndr,

Thanks for your reply.

Do not be offended but i believe the arguments you present are very weak, and you misunderstand alot of things, i hope you can bear with me as i reply to every point you make:

That's your opinion and I support your right to have it.

First of all, are you trying to distinguish the prophethood of Muhammed and Jesus, to see who best fits the criteria, or are you merely trying to say that any Jewish prophet could have fulfilled this?

You are making a case and I'm replying. You said that Deut. 18:18 is not referring to the Prophet Muhammad and that it refers to Jesus. I refuted your arguments and showed from the Bible itself that Jesus does not fit the profile. The only time I mentioned that any Jewish prophet could have fulfilled this prophecy is by taking into consideration your criteria.

My logic goes like this: 1) Jesus claimed to be the prophet spoken about by Moses, the apostles confirmed this, they even quoted the exact Deuteronomy verse.

Your logic is your interpretation. You're the one having to flip around the scripture to get the results you want. It's pretty straight forward to me. Now, maybe I missed that verse you claim says this but could you please cite it?

Well i dont think anyone has ever been prophesied by name and nor do they need to be, so the fact the verse doesnt mention the name Jesus is just weak

What in the world are you talking about? Are you even reading my posts? When did I say that the verse needs to mention a name? If you took "mention" as meaning the name of Jesus then you misunderstood. The verse simply doesn't allude to Jesus, Ih ope that's clearer.

Second of all the verse doesnt state that this prophet had to perform miracles LIKE Moses, it is the power and might of performing such miracles that will be common between them.

Again, why couldn't this be another prophet that performed miracles, surely you're not claiming they are the only two that performed miracles?

Well read my second reply to techneeks above and you will see i have clearly shown how in context the subject being referred to as "their" is the Levi tribe, and their "brethren" are the remaining tribes of Isreal - take a careful read, its an undisputable argument that one.

The Levites were being spoken to around the other tribes. When Moses was speaking to the entirety of the Israelites who in the world would be the Israelites brethren? He wasn't talking to one tribe he was talking to them all.

Well you show me one prophet that performed such mighty and great miracles that could compare to Moses as Jesus did, performed by their own hands, having authority over nature itself.

Miracles are supernatural events. Elijah brought the dead back to life. I think Elisha fed multitudes with barely anything. They are miracles and they belong to God, are you trying to qualify which is better?

And in any event, what other prophet claimed to fulfill this prophecy?

Jesus didn't.

With all due respect, no one has ever claimed Moses spoke of them, and fulfilled the criteria of being an israelite, performing GREAT miracles, and knowing God face to face...except our Lord Jesus Christ.

Neither did Jesus.

Regards

Ronnie

20th February 2004, 11:01

Dfndr,

You said in your post, that some Jews thought Jesus was a prophet and some thought he was the Christ, so how do i arrive at the conclusion that he is both? Well Because a) he fit the criteria for both b) he excecrcised attributes of both c) most importantly he CLAIMED TO BE BOTH and he was said to be both

I didn't say it the Bible did. You arrive at the conclusion because that is what you believe. You are starting with a premise and finding verses to support your position. None of the verses support your position but then you rely on your interpretation. If you're so bored then we'll allow the other members to see for themselves. Not one verse supports your premise and Jesus never claimed to be the Prophet Moses spoke of. You want to combine the Prophet and Christ as if they are the same but to your liking you don't add Elijah. Why not add him to the mix and you'll have yourself another Trinity (just kidding). It's quite surprising how quickly you will argue how much like Moses Jesus is but you are relentless in your belief of his godship. That, imho, disqualifies him from any comparison to any other human being. Unless of course there are other man-god-prophets that you believe in. Is Moses a man-god? Then how could the coming Prophet be like him?

With all due respect you haven't made your case whatsoever but we'll let the members decide.

Regards

C-R-O-W-

20th February 2004, 11:58

Ronnie said to DefndrOf The cross

#I didn't say it the Bible did. You arrive at the conclusion because that is what you believe. You are starting with a premise and finding verses to support your position. None of the verses support your position but then you rely on your interpretation.#

John 4:25-26
The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when He comes, He will declare all things to us. Jesus said to her, I, who speak to you, am
=> Jesus claimed to be Messiah/Christ

John 12:44-50
But Jesus cried out and said, He who believes into Me does not believe into Me, but into Him who sent Me; And he who beholds Me beholds Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that every one who believes into Me would not remain in darkness. And if anyone hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My words has one who judges him; the word which I have spoken, that will judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken from Myself; but the Father who sent Me, He Himself has given Me commandment, what to say and what to speak. And I know that His commandment is eternal life. The things therefore that I speak, even as the Father has said to Me, so I speak.

This statement CLEAR depicts the work of THE PROPHET as spoken in Deuteronomy 18. Jesus further adds to his claim by clearly mentioning the prophet Moses, wrote about Jesus .

Deut 18:18-19
I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. It shall happen, that whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I myself will call him to account.

So, BOTH ‘Christ/Messiah’ and ‘The Prophet’ is claimed by Jesus.
It is not just a saying Christians say [like pulling a rabbit out of a hat] rather its because its written. It’s no illusion.

……………………………………………………
John 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe me [Jesus]; for he wrote about me.

Luke 16:31
‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one [say for example, Jesus] rises from the dead.’”

Peace.

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things

DfndrOfTheCross

20th February 2004, 12:45

Dear Ronnie,

I think you are either deliberetly ignoring large portions of vital information in my replies, or you know for a fact you have nothing intellectual to reply to so you try and play with words to make it sound like i have made no case. Im sure the sensible, and sound minded reader would realise this, if they have been following the topic since post 1 word for word.

You see in order to reply you Ronnie, i'll probably be repeating myself for maybe the third or fourth time on some issues. Because I make my statements then i provide the logical evidence and support for this. But what you do is you quote my comments and ask me for the evidence, i urge you to read what i say word for word, so i dont have to keep repeating myself.

I mean really this is getting ridiculous.

Let me look at a few things you said just for an example:

You say: The Levites were being spoken to around the other tribes. When Moses was speaking to the entirety of the Israelites who in the world would be the Israelites brethren? He wasn't talking to one tribe he was talking to them all.

You have eyes, and i know you can read. So lets read what the beggining of Deuteronomy 18 says AGAIN:

"The tribe of Levi shall have no inheritance with ISRAEL. They shall have no inheritance among THEIR BRETHEREN".

Notice how "Israel" is placed in parallel with "their brethren". It first states that Levi shall have no inheritence with Israel, and it then emphasises they shall have no inheritance with their brethren. Since it is Israel they are not having inheritence with, therefore their brethren must be referring to Israelis, i.e. the remaning 11 tribes. no HONEST METHOD of interpretation or linguistic approach can prove otherwise.

You say regarding Deut 18:18: "Your logic is your interpretation. You're the one having to flip around the scripture to get the results you want. It's pretty straight forward to me. Now, maybe I missed that verse you claim says this but could you please cite it?"

Well Ronnie....YES YOU DID MISS THE VERSE(S) because if you scroll up i placed emphasis on at least 3. Let me repeat them for you.

John 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe me [Jesus]; for he wrote about me.

John 1:45 "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law...."

Acts 3:22 "For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your own people....'"

How else would you liek to interpret this???????? The apostles SPECIFICALLY QUOTED THE EXACT DEUT VERSE. I mean what else would you like? how specific do you want them to be Ronnie? Open your mind...open your heart to the clear evidence regarding this issue.

You say Jesus never claimed to fulfill this prophecy? He DID, you have eyes, read what i quoted. Its not a matter of interpretation. Moses spoke of the prophet in the law, Jesus said Moses spoke of him in the law....is there anything im missing Ronnie??

I have clearly shown without reasonable doubt that Jesus knew God face to face. I supported this with quotations and much evidence and like i expected you had nothing to comment on this.

Jesus performed great miracles. You claimed before that the miracles of Moses and Jesus were nothing alike, i showed you a clear example where one miracles was. And in any event, ive never based the whole proof of Jesus regarding Deut:18 on his miracle performing,. This is simply one of the criterion that had to be fulfilled.

Jesus was from the tribe of Israel. I have clearly shown that the context clearly emphasises that the subject is the tribe of levi, their brethren the remaining tribes of Isreal.

Jesus clearly claimed ownership of this prophecy, and the apostles in acts even quoted the exact verse and said that this was concerning Jesus.

Ronnie, on many issues as i might have said before, i might emphasise that my manner of interpretation or argument or whatever, is more VALID than what someone else might say maybe because ive taken more things into account.

However regarding Deut:18:18 I can clearly say without arrogance or ignorance, that i have taken absolutely everything the criptures give us into account. And come to the unescapable factual conclusion that this verse a) can NOT refer to Muhammed, and b) DOES refer to Jesus Christ.

I think from here on, i will urge any new readers to this issue to be honest with themselves and read the posts and arguments made WORD FOR WORD from the very beggining, and the truth will stand clear from error.

I dont think there are any new arguments that can be put forth, and i can see this because the arguments ive heard so far are made in ignorance of the posts ive made previously which already refute the new claims being brought forth.

Peace and God Bless. May the Lord open our minds to the clear and blatant truth, and open our hearts to accept this truth.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

DfndrOfTheCross

20th February 2004, 12:50

Sorry one more thing Ronnie concerning your first claim on Deut 18:18 that God was speaking to Israel as a WHOLE. This is incorrect and i suggest you read Deut 18 right from the very begginging.

The Subject of the chapter is the tribe of levi, and this continues trhoughout the whole chapter, there is no where, that you can say that the subject being addressed transfers fropm teh tribe of levi to the whole of israel. The context does not allow for this assumption, nor does any sensible and logical linguistic approach.

Your assumption is incorrect. Please if you can even go to an online Bible. read Deut: 18 from beggining, and if you can show me where the subject changes from the tribe of Israel to the whole of Israel i will gladly retract my statement.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

Vajradhara

20th February 2004, 22:28

Namaste dfndr,

thank you for the post.

if you choose not to converse with me.... what can i say.. it's your choice to do so or not.

in your initial opening you addressed "non-believers" not specifically Muslims. If that's what you meant, you should have indicated such. as a non-believer, i feel that i have relevant questions.

if your intent here is to evangelize our Muslim friends... then i suppose you are correct.. i have little interest in participating in the discussion. if, however, you intention was to engage in dialog with non-believers... i doubt you'll find any that disbelieve more than i.

~compassionately~

Yahya Sulaiman

21st February 2004, 07:03

My suggestion is that Christians and Muslims everywhere stop attempting to get anywhere with the debate over Deuteronomy 18. It's a lost cause, the most pointless and fruitless of all Muslim-Christian dialogues. You do what you want, though.

http://www.freewebs.com/ziggyzag

DfndrOfTheCross

21st February 2004, 12:51

Dear Vajradhara,

First of all, i mean im in an "Understanding Islam" forum, posting a topic under "Deuteronomy 18:18" a verse Muslims try to claim was Muhammed, but a verse i believe is obviously related to and can only relate to Jesus. When i addressed "non-believers" i never expected an atheist to fall under this category, in this particular forum. So forgive me then for my bad wording.

A discussion with you would revolve around the existence of God, the supernatural, and the biblical events that took place and validating these events as well as validating the claims of Christ to be God.

So i would gladly discuss these with you, but do you think this forum is the right place to do so? I dont think so. To show you that i really would be keen in discussin such issues, id appreciate if you could give me your email address and we can start on a personal discussion - thats if you wish...

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

DfndrOfTheCross

21st February 2004, 13:01

Dear Yahya

If the evidence I provided is not enough to convince you that this verse belongs to Jesus Christ, then i can only conclude that no matter how obvious the truth may stand out, your theological bias will never allow you to accept anything that favours a negative blow to your own cause.

Let me just recap on Deut 18:18 for you, and if you can go back and chek on the previous posts to read the extensive amount of evidence on this issue:

--> The prophet had to be from the brethren of the tribe of levi, which is specifically said to be the remaining trbies of Israel as shown by the context:

** Fuflilled in Jesus: Who was from the tribe of Judah.
^^Muhammed fails: He was an arab.

--> The prophet had to be like Moses in the way Moses was known to God face to face and performed mighty miracles.

**Fulfilled in Jesus: Jesus claimed to directly declare God to mankind, and confronted God the Father face to face during the transfiguration. He also did mighty miracles having authority over nature, healing sick etc.
^^ Muhammed fails: According to the Quran he never performed any miracles, although he claimed Allah could make him if he wanted, but he made it clear he chose not to - either way they miracles were never performed. Muhammed never spoke to God face to face, he achieved his revelations via an intermediary.

Finally, Jesus claimed possession of this verse when he indicated "Moses wrote about me", Deut 18 is the only place where Moses speaks of a future prophet.

Furthermore, to emphasise the fact this specific verse was in relation to Jesus, the chapter of Acts quotes from the Deut 18:18 and refers it to Jesus himself.

That is all. All the proof for each of the above is in the previous posts, i suggest all readers who are interested enough go and read this topic from front to back, and the truth will stand clear from error.

God bless.
Peace.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

DfndrOfTheCross

21st February 2004, 13:04

Yahya one more thing.

This verse is important to Muslims. Because like i showed in my first post, Allah specifically told Muhammed that he would be found mentioned in the scriptures, so Muslims search the Bible in vain, looking for any ambiguous verse they can take out of context to manipulate to point to Muhammed. My purpose is, to by factual evidence
disprove all alleged prophecy. Because once this is done the Muslim has to wonder, was Allah of the Quran ignorant when he told Muhammed he would be found in the scriptures? or is it jus possible that maybe the Allah of the Quran does not exist...

Please take no offense, i know theyre harsh words, and i dont know how i would take them if i was on the other side. I hope you all know however that i mean well.

Peace

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

Ronnie

21st February 2004, 20:19

Dfndr & Vajradhara,

I feel that Vajradhara is integral to this forum and always shares information with fellow members. I see no reason for Vajradhara not to participate in this or other forums. This debate would not revolve around the existence of God, rather, I'm quite sure Vajradhara would point out either that the prophecy is unfulfilled or that it is not related to Jesus. Because I appreciate Vajradhara's opinions I would hope that you would join in the conversation. I'm sure that will add, for the better, to the conversation at hand. Please consider my request and I hope you agree to have this dialog.

I too, when I have the opportunity, will reply to Dfndr's point of view.

Regards

Vajradhara

21st February 2004, 21:34

Namaste Ronnie and Dfndr,

thank you for the kind words, Ronnie, i do appreciate them.

Dfndr,

i am glad that you see my confusion regarding the intial post.

i think that our converstation would have a different thrust than what you are indicating, but that would be, simply my opinion.

in regards to this specific topic... i would make my case around two points... prophecy is unfulfilled and the prophecy isn't specific to Jesus. in my own aggrogance, i think that i could make a good case for my position.

i'm a bit reluctant to give out my email address after receiving some unsolicited email from this site, i made it such that only admins can see my address.

now.. regarding the overall disucssion... if you would be ameanable, i would be happy to start a new thread. in many respects this would be a good opportunity for my Christian and Muslim friends to be on the same side of the issue :) perhaps some interfaith harmony can be built by engaging in the apologetics with me? one can only hope so.

so... anticipating that this will be acceptable with you, i'll start a new thread.

oh.. by the way... i'm not an atheist, in point of fact, most Buddhists are not. we have a different understanding of deities and what roles that they play. it is quite clearly taught in our Sutras that the Buddha taught both Gods and men.

~compassionately~

Edited by - Vajradhara on 02/21/2004 15:51:03

Hischam Khan

22nd February 2004, 01:34

Peace to All,

DfndrOfTheCross cited a verse of the Qur’an (Quran 28.48 and also mentioned Sura 6:37) and concluded from it that Muhammad was sent without any signs. Actually this is not true. The verse tells us what the rejecters said and it does NOT say that Muhammad (P) never came with any signs. Actually the case is similar with every Prophet; which is that when people are faithless, arrogant and deny signs given to them and then demand signs of their choice; their demand is not met. Simply put; they do not command God what to do. The case was similar with Jesus (P) in his home town; we are told they weren’t faithful and thus they didn’t see signs. The claim which I have heard so often now; that Muhammad (P) didn’t bring any signs is UNTRUE. Let me also remind everyone that actually none of the signs that where brought by the Prophets were theirs but actually God’s. It was God that gave these signs through the Messengers. The case is the same with Jesus (P).

“Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a MAN (not God) accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which GOD DID AMONG YOU THROUGH HIM, as you yourselves know.” Acts 2:22

So God did the signs, miracles and wonders through him. The Qur’an mentions the same thing (that he performed miracles by the ‘permission of God’):

“And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign FROM YOUR LORD (hence not from himself), that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with GOD’S PERMISSION and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with GOD’S PERMISSION and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.” S 3:49

P.S. the brackets are MY emphasis.

DfndrOfTheCross

22nd February 2004, 04:33

Dear Ronnie,

To make it clear i never tried to exclude Vajradhara, i was merely expressing to her the purpose of the topic i raised which was initially to prove beyond reasonable doubt (which i have done!) that Muhammed cannot and does not fit the criteria of this prophecy nor did he claim to, and to prove that Christ claimed the prophecy himself and also fit the criteria. In other words my position was to be on the Christian defense of a nonsensical Muslim claim that Muhammed is the prophet of Deut. 18:18. If Vajradhara in her neutral position as a Buddhist would like to make some specific outside comments, and feels she is qualified, then she may feel free to do so.

Everyone has their opinion, and i respect that.

You said you wanted to reply to my points of view on Deut.18, well Ronnie you have already tried and failed im afraid, im not sure what more youd like to say. I think its obvious from contextual evudence that certain factors are clear and obvious, and cannot be fulfilled by Muhammed i.e. that prophet must be Israelite.

Now in order for you Ronnie, to disqualify Jesus Christ from the prophecy, you have the following to deal with. you must prove that either:

a) Jesus was not known to God face to face, in light of the verses i used to support this in my earlier posts.
b) Jesus was not from any of the tribes of Israel.
c) Jesus never performed any miracles.

If you can disprove any of these, thats when you can make your confident claim that Jesus did not fit the criteria.

Secondly if you fail in the above (which you will im afraid), you might try and argue that this prophecy could have been fulfilled by someone else. So then what your going to have to do is find me another prophet that came after Moses who fulfills all 3 of the following:

a) Spoke to God face to face
b) from the tribes of Israel
c) performed great miracles

If you happen to find this prophet (which you wont im afraid), your going to then have to explain why:
a) At the time of Jesus the Jews were still expecting this prophet to come, if you believe this prophet had already come prior to Jesus; coming.
and b) Why this prophet remained silent on the issue, when Jesus himself and the New testemant confirms he fulfilled the prophecy.

Finally if you wish to disprove the fact Jesus and the New testemant make it clear that Christ was a fulfillment of what Moses wrote in Deut 18.18, your going to have to come up with some logical, hermeneutical, contextual approach to re-interpret the following verses:

• John 1:45 "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law...."
• John 5:46 "If you believed Moses, you would believe me [Jesus], for he wrote about me."
• John 6:14 "Surely this [Jesus] is the Prophet who is to come into the world."
• Acts 3:22 "For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your own people....'"

Once you have sufficiently answered these questions with factual evidence to support you (which you wont find) THAT IS WHEN you have the right to confidently say either:

a) Muhammed is the prophet of Deut 18:18
OR b) Jesus is not the prophet of Deut 18.18

May God enlighten all our minds.
Peace.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

DfndrOfTheCross

22nd February 2004, 04:34

Dear Vajradhara

You say: "in regards to this specific topic... i would make my case around two points... prophecy is unfulfilled and the prophecy isn't specific to Jesus."

Well firstly you must make your case from the scriptures itself. In your case your concern is not whether Muhammed fulfilled it, but you some firm belief that this prophecy is unfulfilled and not relating to Jesus. As I said to Ronnie in order for you to make a confident claim concerning this issue you have to prove to me from scriptures the following:

a) Jesus was not known to God face to face, in light of the verses i used to support this in my earlier posts.
b) Jesus was not from any of the tribes of Israel.
c) Jesus never performed any miracles.

If you can disprove any of these, thats when you can make your confident claim that Jesus did not fit the criteria. But if you cant, you then have to accept under assumption that since Jesus did in fact fit the criteria, it is intellectually tenable at this stage that Jesus did fit the criteria. The confirming factor I believe is that Jesus indeed later claimed this prophecy and other New testemant passages show this. So again like I said to Ronnie, to then make the case that there is no confirmation for this intellectually tenable argument that Jesus may have been the prophet of this verse, your going to have to reinterpret the obvious interpretation in the following verses:

• John 1:45 "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law...."
• John 5:46 "If you believed Moses, you would believe me [Jesus], for he wrote about me."
• John 6:14 "Surely this [Jesus] is the Prophet who is to come into the world."
• Acts 3:22 "For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your own people....'"

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

Edited by - DfndrOfTheCross on 02/21/2004 22:42:18

DfndrOfTheCross

22nd February 2004, 04:36

Dear Hischam Khan

To briefly comment on the relevant issues of this topic. First of all I stick with my case that according to the Quran Muhammed never performed miracles. According to:

“And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign FROM YOUR LORD (hence not from himself), that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with GOD’S PERMISSION and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with GOD’S PERMISSION and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.” S 3:49

It doesn’t say anything about Muhammed performing any signs. It seems clear to me that the verse is indicating that under Gods permission, Muhammed would have the ability to do miracles, and heal the blind etc. But does this verse say that Muhammed ever performed these? In fact is there any verse in the Quran where Muhammed actually heals a blind man or a leper and brings the dead to life etc.? No. And the qualifier for Deut 18.18, is that this prophet WOULD perform great signs and great miracles. Surely if Muhammed performed such great signs and miracles, there would be some sort of an account of this even a brief one in the Quran.

I mean in the Bible there is no doubt Jesus performed miracles, because according to the scriptures, it recounts many miracles that he did, he never merely claimed to be able to do them. He performed them in front of multitudes, and the gospels recount the astonishment of the crowds etc. and even the skeptics who thought he was some sort of sorcerer casting out demons with demons.

IN ANY EVENT, lets ASSUME FOR ARGUMENTS SAKE that the Quran for example gave a brilliant detailed account on how Mohammed performed some great miracles (which it does not. Then again I say, this is only one part of the criteria set forth in Deut 18.18. To Hold your argument up you need to show me where the Quran states that Mohammed spoke to God face to face, and you also need to prove that Mohammed was an Israelite (which he obviously wasn’t).

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

Edited by - DfndrOfTheCross on 02/21/2004 22:45:36

Hischam Khan

22nd February 2004, 05:24

Peace to All,

DfndrOfTheCross

“To Hold your argument up you need to show me”

I need to show you nothing. I have been discussing this in detail with Mule and I am currently discussing it with C-R-O-W; I don’t know whether you realised that. So actually I already responded to what you said. If you were to look at my posts you would realise this. But you don’t have to, I can see that you are having an interesting discussion with the members and I want to leave you people to it. All I wanted to do is correct this famous misconception. It seems that nobody was going to comment on it and I waited quite a while.

Now regarding what I quoted from S 3:49, I must say that I find it strange that you can claim so confidently that the Qur’an makes it clear that Muhammad (P) came with no signs/miracles and yet you couldn’t even realise that the quoted verse is referring to Jesus (P). You also accused Ronnie of not paying attention to what you wrote, so now it happened to you (you weren’t paying close enough attention to what I wrote).

P.S.

This might not mean much to you but if you look carefully at what Ronnie said; you would find that he has responded to pretty much everything that you presented that makes you feel that this prophecy refers to Jesus (P).

Hischam Khan

22nd February 2004, 05:31

On a side note; this is something that I already mentioned in the other post but it may interest you:

Read the verses 15 to the end of 16 of Deuteronomy 18, and you will find that the people that are here being addressed are the same as those that were addressed at Horeb and at Horeb all twelve tribes of Israel were addressed. Since Jesus (P) is among the descendants of one of the tribes; he cannot be the person that is here referred to.

Hischam Khan

22nd February 2004, 05:47

It also interests me that when you mention the criteria other Prophets (including Muhammad peace be upon him) would have to meet; you mention:

a)Spoke to God face to face
b) from the tribes of Israel
c) performed great miracles

But in regards to Jesus (P) you put it into the following (that we have to prove that):

a)Jesus was not known to God face to face, in light of the verses i used to support this in my earlier posts.
b) Jesus was not from any of the tribes of Israel.
c) Jesus never performed any miracles.

I ask my fellow members to have a close look at the difference in the criteria to make sure it fits Jesus (P):

For us; we have to prove that the Prophet spoke face to face with God but for him it is good enough for Jesus (P) to be KNOWN face to face by God. It is not the same and we know why. It is as was already mentioned by Ronnie that Moses (P) spoke face to face with God while Jesus (P) didn’t. In regards to the other two criteria, there are several Prohets other than Jesus (P) that would fulfil them. Actually I already pointed out in my last post that the context shows that the word “brothers” does not refer to any of the twelve tribes but is actually addressing them collectively.

Hischam Khan

22nd February 2004, 05:52

In regards to the Qur'an mentioning their similarity or not, the following verse may be of some interest:

“We have sent to you a messenger, as a witness [of God's truth] upon you, just as we sent a messenger to the Pharaoh. (Al-Muzzammil 73: 15)”

Hischam Khan

22nd February 2004, 05:56

I'd also like to mention that you make it sound like Muslims place their belief in the Qur'an (And Islam) on this prophecy - I doubt that this is the case. I would like to see if this is the case for a single Mulsim member on this forum. I really don't think so.

Hischam Khan

22nd February 2004, 06:41

In regards to Acts, I have made a discovery (indeed we never stop learning) which might interest Mule as well:

Acts 3
17 "And now, brethren, I know that ye did it in ignorance, as also your rulers;
18 but God has thus fulfilled what he had announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer.
19 Repent therefore and be converted, for the blotting out of your sins, so that times of refreshing may come from [the] presence of the Lord,
20 and he may send Jesus Christ, who was foreordained for you,
21 whom heaven indeed must receive till [the] times of [the] restoring of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets since time began.
22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall [the] Lord your God raise up to you out of your brethren like me: him shall ye hear in everything whatsoever he shall say to you.
23 And it shall be that whatsoever soul shall not hear that prophet shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 And indeed all the prophets from Samuel and those in succession after [him], as many as have spoken, have announced also these days.
25 *Ye* are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God appointed to our fathers, saying to Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
26 To you first God, having raised up his servant, has sent him, blessing you in turning each one [of you] from your wickedness."

Careful analysis of the verses show that that Jesus (P) is to come again but not immediately because certain things have to be fulfilled (he will not come “till [the] times of [the] restoring of all things”). One of those restorations is the prophecy made by Moses (P) of a Prophet like him. Thus this Prophet according to Peter was still awaited. They are asked to repent immediately before these restorations take place. Then after their fulfilment will Jesus (P) return. It also says that the soul that doesn’t listen to that Prophet (P) shall be destroyed which did indeed happen to the rejecters of the Prophet Muhammad (P).

Tolerance

22nd February 2004, 22:29

I'm new here and havent read all what is written but like to share with what i know, sorry if it will be repeated!

Muhammad in the BIBLE

The Prophet Like unto Moses

God addressed Moses in (Deuteronomy 18:18): "will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee [Moses], and will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

1. Brethren of Israelites (descendants of Abraham through Isaac) are Ishmaelites (descendants of Abraham through Ishmael). Jesus is here excluded, as he is an Israelite. Otherwise it should be written "a prophet from among yourselves."

*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION" (Qur'an 2:256)

Tolerance

22nd February 2004, 22:32

2. "Put my words in his mouth". So God's revelation came through Gabriel, and Prophet Muhammad's own thinking was not involved. But this applies to all divine revelation. Perhaps it is mentioned here specifically to be compared with the revelation to Moses, which came in "written tablets", as believed.

(Deuteronomy 18:19): "And it shall come to pass that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

In the Holy Qur'an, 113 of the 114 surahs start with:

"In the name of Allah, most Gracious, most Merciful."

Also in their daily work they start with this saying. Not in the name of God, but "in my name", His personal name which is "Allah". As it is a personal name, it is not subject to gender like God or Goddess, or to plurality like Gods or Goddesses. Christians start with "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

It is to be noted that those who will not hear, or who deny Him, will be punished. This corresponds with passages in the Holy Qur'an:

"Truly the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam." (Surah Al-'lmran - Verse No. 19)

"And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers." (Surah Al-'lmran -

*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION" (Qur'an 2:256)

Tolerance

22nd February 2004, 22:34

3. Is Muhammad not like unto Moses? If not accepted, this promise has yet to be fulfilled.

Following is a comparison between a few crucial characteristics of Moses, Muhammad, and Jesus which may clarify the identity of "that prophet" who was to come after Moses:

1. Birth

Both Moses and Muhammad were married and begot children. There is no similar record of marriage and offspring in the case of Jesus.

2. Death

Both Moses and Muhammad died of natural causes and were buried. The end of the mission of Jesus on earth was unusual; crucifixion according to Christian beliefs and being raised up to the heavens without crucifixion according to Muslim beliefs.

3. Career

Both Moses and Muhammad were not only prophets and spiritual teachers in the usual sense, but they were also "heads of states" whose mission included the establishment of a "state" founded on the teachings of their faith. No such opportunity presented itself to Prophet Jesus.

4. Force d Emigration (in adulthood)

Moses left Egypt following knowledge of a plot to kill him and went to Median, where he was welcomed and assured by Jethro. Muhammad left Makkah (Mecca) following knowledge of a plot to kill him and went to Yathrib which was later called Al Madinah (Medina, Saudi Arabia)). No similar incident was reported about Jesus in his adulthood and after he began his mission as a prophet.

5. Encounter with enemies

Moses encountered his enemies (the Pharaoh's army) who sought to destroy him and his followers in "hot pursuit". Muhammad encountered his enemies (the pagan Arabs) who sought to destroy him and his followers in several battles. No such encounter was reported in the case of Jesus. Indeed he was reported to have commanded Simon Peter to put his sword into the sheath when he attempted to defend Jesus at the time of his arrest.

6. Results of encounter:

Moses' encounter with his enemies ended with a military and moral victory. His enemies drowned and Moses and his followers were saved. Muhammad's encounter with his enemies ended with his final military and moral victory over them in the conquest of Mecca. He and his followers reentered Makkah (Mecca), the centre of plotting against him. Impressed with his truthfulness and magnanimity, the great majority of his former enemies chose to become Muslims and were among his ardent supporters. Jesus' victory against his enemies was only a moral victory which did not involve an immediate military victory over them at the same time.

7. Writing down of Revelation

The teachings revealed to Moses were available in a written form in his lifetime. The Qur'an revealed to Muhammad was fully written down in his lifetime and under his supervision

The teachings of Jesus were not committed to writing in his lifetime. Even the earliest Gospel was written down many years after him.

8. Nature of Teachings

Unlike any other prophets from the lineage of Abraham, the revelation given to Moses and Muhammad contained comprehensive codes of law, in addition to the spiritual and moral elements of their teachings. The teachings of Jesus were almost entirely spiritual. Indeed Jesus never claimed to bring a new law, nor even to abrogate the existing Old Testament Law” (35) He simply added a spiritual and human touch to the concept of law, which by his time had been reduced to the level of lifeless and at times hypocritical formalism.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill", Jesus was quoted as saying.

9. Acceptance of leadership (by his people)

After initial resistance and skepticism by his people, Moses was accepted by his people as a prophet and a leader in his lifetime, notwithstanding certain lapses (such as the worship of the golden calf). After initial resistance, Muhammad was enthusiastically accepted as a prophet and a leader in his lifetime. Until the end, however, and with the exception of a few followers, Jesus was rejected by his people (the Israelites).

Who was then the "Prophet like unto Moses"?

*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION" (Qur'an 2:256)

DfndrOfTheCross

23rd February 2004, 09:44

Dear Hischam

Well Thank you for pointing out my mistake regarding S 3:49. Actually im glad it refers to Jesus. Because this furthermore emphasises that the Quran has nothing to say concerning Muhammed performing any miracles whatsoever. In fact every event in which Muhammed had the chance to perform a miracle as recorded in the Quran, he refused and tried to justify himself by saying such signs are mistreated. Nonetheless its quite clear He never performed any miracles according to the Quran. The criteria of the prophet of Deut:18:18 make it clear that not only will the prophet perform miracles, but they will be GREAT.

You say: Read the verses 15 to the end of 16 of Deuteronomy 18, and you will find that the people that are here being addressed are the same as those that were addressed at Horeb and at Horeb all twelve tribes of Israel were addressed. Since Jesus (P) is among the descendants of one of the tribes; he cannot be the person that is here referred to.

lol Read verse 1 and 2 and you will see that the people being addressed at the tribe of levi...keep reading from 2-18 and you will find that the subject of the chapter being addressed never switches from the Tribe of levi to anyone else.

Furthermore the Hebrew word for brethren is never used to describe the arabs relations to Israelis. In 2 Genesis verses another Hebrew word is translated as brethren to describe the direct sons of Ishmael as the direct brethren (direct relation) to the direct sons of Isaac, but never is the word brethren uses so generally between Arabs and Israelis and thus althought contextual evidence disproves your assumption, there is also no precedence for your assumption either.

The word "brethren" in Hebrew, the language of the Old Testament is "ah." The same word is used in the Arabic language. The "a" is long. The "h" is hard, sounding something like the sound of the "ch" in the Scottish word "loch." In "their brethren?" ["ah-ey-hem] the "ey-hem" is the ending indicating "their." Both Hebrew and Arabic as Semitic languages put various endings on words to indicate plural, possession, etc.

The same Hebrew word for "brethren" is used in these ways in the books of prophecy given by God through Moses:

• The Levites, the priestly tribe, were brethren (Deuteronomy 18:2 and 10:9)
• The king of Israel is to come from the brothers (Deut 17:15)
• The king of Israel is not to raise himself over his brothers (Deut 17:20)
• Brother Israelites as different from aliens (Deut 1:16)
• Brothers, the sons of Israel (Deut 3:18)
• Brothers Israelites as distinct from foreigners (Deut 15:2-3)
• Brother Israelites (Deut 15:7 & 11)
• Brother Israelites at war (Deut 20:8)
• Brothers among the tribes of Israel (Deut 33:9 & 16 & 24)
• Brothers, Cain and Abel (Genesis 4:2-11)
• Abraham, half-brother of Sarah (Gen 20:5-16)
• Brothers Esau and Jacob the sons of Isaac and Rebekah (Gen 25:26)

But the two times when the distant relatives were identified as "brethren," they were spelled out and specifically identified by their name and relationship or location:
• "Brothers, sons of Esau" (Deut 2:4 & 8)
• "Brothers of Edom" (Numbers 20:14)

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

Edited by - DfndrOfTheCross on 02/23/2004 03:52:01

DfndrOfTheCross

23rd February 2004, 09:46

Dear Hsicham

XXXX You say: For us; we have to prove that the Prophet spoke face to face with God but for him it is good enough for Jesus (P) to be KNOWN face to face by God.XXX

Forgive me another error of mine, slip of the tongue. However another slip of the tongue that only instigates a response to you that goes in my favour.

The criteria actually reads: "Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord KNEW FACE TO FACE, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders... For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel." (Deut. 34:10-12)

So it has nothing to do with speaking to God face to face. So yes it is good enough to be known face to face. And as I have proven Jesus was known to God face to face:

Let me quote what I said originally:

“First of all if you read the verse CAREFULLY, it mentions nothing about SPEAKING to God face to face. It says whom the Lord KNEW face to face. i.e. The prophet and the Lord were confronted face to face.
Matthew 17 is a chapter that recounts the event of the transfiugration. To encounter God the Father face to face Jesus had to regain the glory he once had before he became incarnate, thus his face shone like the Sun and his clothes became as white as light, so he met God the Father face to face. This is similar to what happened with Moses, when Moses encountered God.
John 6:45-46 Clearly shows that Jesus had directly seen the Father and knows him through a direct relationship i.e. face to face.
". No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father."
Now the thing to note is, when Jesus says "except the one who is from God" he is actually referring to himself specifically, and not merely anyone from God. Lets look at the verse in context of another verse which emphasizes and supports this assertion more clearly:
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." John 1:18. So not only did Jesus know God the Father as direct as face to face, he knew him in such a way that he was a direct declaration of Him.
I tell you this no other prophet has seen God, not one. No one that comes from God can see God. Actually Jesus Christ was the only one who claimed to be sent forth directly from God. The other prophets were just called upon by God to speak as prophets. But the scriptures make it clear that no man can see God else he turn to dust because no one can witness the glory of God. Only Moses and Jesus Christ the son, were given this privelege.”

XXXXXXXX You say: I'd also like to mention that you make it sound like Muslims place their belief in the Qur'an (And Islam) on this prophecy - I doubt that this is the case. I would like to see if this is the case for a single Mulsim member on this forum. I really don't think so.XXXXXXX

Actually the point im trying to make is, that if you consider the Quran to be the absolute truth, then there can be no faults in it. And if the Quran tells Muhammed that he will be found mentioned in the scriptures, and it is proven that indeed he is not, then obviously there’s a problem the Muslim has to deal with.

Regarding your comments on Acts 10. Nowhere does it indicate that the prophet is separate from Christ and no where does it indicate that “One of those restorations is the prophecy made by Moses (P) of a Prophet like him” as you so specifically state, it seems to me like your twisting this verse according to your own a priori theological bias.

Peace

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

DfndrOfTheCross

23rd February 2004, 09:49

Dear Tolerance,

Welcome and thanks for your input. To be honest with you, i personally believe i have refuted all the claims you have presented earlier on, so if you would like to read on the Christian point of view and refutation to the typical Muslim claims you present, it would probably be wise of you to read this topic from the begining, because the arguments you have put forth so far are nothing new and have already been discussed.

I only say this so no one has to repeat themselves and discussion can flow properly. thanks.

Peace.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

Hischam Khan

24th February 2004, 04:20

DfndrOfTheCross wrote:

“In fact every event in which Muhammed had the chance to perform a miracle as recorded in the Quran, he refused and tried to justify himself by saying such signs are mistreated.”

How did Jesus (P) justify himself in his hometown? Is it that they were faithless because the same was the case for the opponents of Muhammad (P)? You feel so confident in what you state so why not show me where in the Qur’an it states that Muhammad (P) did come with any signs?

You wrote:

“The criteria of the prophet of Deut:18:18 make it clear that not only will the prophet perform miracles, but they will be GREAT.”

You are not being honest. What you are referring to is Chapter 34 of Deuteronomy. Nowhere in chapter 18, where the prophecy is made, does it say that the similarity between the two will be in regards to them doing miracles. You think that just because the word “like Moses” is used in Chapter 34, it means that this refers to the prophecy. I disagree, I think that it just emphasis his greatness which the writer of the Book expressed. It is not part of the context.

You write:

“lol Read verse 1 and 2 and you will see that the people being addressed at the tribe of levi...keep reading from 2-18 and you will find that the subject of the chapter being addressed never switches from the Tribe of levi to anyone else.”

Do you think that I never read it before? Of course I have. I just gave you the context (verses before and after the text that are related to it) and they show that the “You” is referring to the same people that were addressed at Horeb as “You” and they were the whole of Israel. To me it’s as clear as daylight. In previous posts you made it sound as though it would be a great flaw if we missed what you see as part of the context. This is strange; you want to ignore what really is the context (which is the text that goes immediately before and after the text in discussion) and want us to concentrate on what you see as the context – one which is about 15 verses away and the other 16 chapters away. Actually if you read the chapter it should be easy enough to see that the address does indeed change. Also, many Bibles actually give little headings every time a subject changes to aid the reader and you will find that the same is the case here (in this chapter of Deuteronomy). So I reckon that I have the Bible translators backing me too.

Let us have a look at it anyway:

Deuteronomy 18

1THE LEVITICAL priests and all the tribe of Levi shall have no part or inheritance with Israel; they shall eat the offerings made by fire to the Lord, and His rightful dues.
2They shall have no inheritance among their brethren (obviously the other tribes); the Lord is their inheritance, as He promised them.
3And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from those who offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep: they shall give to the priest the shoulder and the two cheeks and the stomach.
4The firstfruits of your grain, of your new wine, and of your oil, and the first or best of the fleece of your sheep you shall give the priest.
5For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes (hence here clearly the whole of Israel is addressed – all tribes) to stand to minister in the name [and presence] of the Lord, him and his sons forever.
6And if a Levite comes from any of your (all Israelis) towns out of all Israel where he is a temporary resident, he may come whenever he desires to [the sanctuary] the place the Lord will choose;
7Then he may minister in the name [and presence of] the Lord his God like all his brethren (here a Levite’s fellow Levite brethren is referred to) the Levites who stand to minister there before the Lord.
8They shall have equal portions to eat, besides what may come of the sale of his patrimony.
9When you (this refers to the Israelites) come into the land which the Lord your God gives you (Clearly this “you” refers to the whole of Israel that was brought into the land), you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of these nations.
10There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through the fire, or who uses divination, or is a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer,
11Or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and it is because of these abominable practices that the Lord your God is driving them out before you (the whole of Israel).
13You (all Israelis) shall be blameless [and absolutely true] to the Lord your God.
14For these nations whom you (all Israelis) shall dispossess listen to soothsayers and diviners. But as for you (all the Israelites), the Lord your God has not allowed you (all Israelites) to do so.
15The Lord your (all Israelites’) God will raise up for you (all Israelites) a prophet (Prophet) from the midst of your (all Isarelites) brethren like me [Moses]; to him you (All Israelites) shall listen.
16This is what you (All Israelites) desired [and asked] of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you (all Israelites; I will refer to it later) said, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.
17And the Lord said to me, They (All the Israelites that were at Horeb) have well said all that they (All these Israeltis at Horeb) have spoken.
18I will raise up for them (All the Israelites at Horeb) a prophet (Prophet) from among their (All the Israelites at Horeb) brethren like you, and will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them (All the Israelites) all that I command him.
19And whoever will not hearken to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
20But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.
21And if you say in your [minds and] hearts, How shall we know which words the Lord has not spoken?
22When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or prove true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”

Here you go; now you have the xontext and how I understand it. Hey, what other way was there to clarify it for you? You make it sound as though I am trying to ignore the context. Now lets look at who was addressed at Horeb:

Deuteronomy Chapter 1:
“1THESE ARE the words which Moses spoke to ALL ISRAEL [still] on the [east] side of the Jordan [River] in the wilderness, in the Arabah [the deep valley running north and south from the eastern arm of the Red Sea to beyond the Dead Sea], over near Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth, and Dizahab (so the wole of Israel was addressed).
2It is [only] eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of Mount Seir to Kadesh-barnea [on Canaan's border; yet Israel took forty years to get beyond it].
3And in the fortieth year, on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses spoke to the Israelites (not a particular tribe but the Israelites) according to all that the Lord had given him in commandment to them,
4After He had defeated Sihon king of the Amorites, who lived in Heshbon, and Og king of Bashan, who lived in Ashtaroth [and] Edrei.
5Beyond (east of) the Jordan in the land of Moab, Moses began to explain this law, saying,
6The Lord our God said to us (Hence; everyone) in Horeb, You have dwelt long enough on this mountain.
7Turn and take up your journey and go to the hill country of the Amorites, and to all their neighbors in the Arabah, in the hill country, in the lowland, in the South (the Negeb), and on the coast, the land of the Canaanites, and Lebanon, as far as the great river, the river Euphrates.
8Behold, I have set the land before you (the whole of Israel); go in and take possession of the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them and to their descendants after them.
9I said to you at that time, I am not able to bear you alone.
10The Lord your God has multiplied you, and behold, you are this day as the stars of the heavens for multitude.
11May the Lord, the God of your fathers, make you a thousand times as many as you are and bless you as He has promised you!
12How can I bear alone the weariness and pressure and burden of you and your strife?
13Choose wise, understanding, experienced, and respected men according to your tribes, and I will make them heads over you (the whole of Israel).
14And you answered me, The thing which you have spoken is good for us to do.
15So I took the heads of your tribes (od All Israelites), wise, experienced, and respected men, and made them heads over you, commanders of thousands, and hundreds, and fifties, and tens, and officers according to your tribes.
16And I charged your judges at that time: Hear the cases between your brethren and judge righteously between a man and his brother or the stranger or sojourner who is with him.
17You shall not be partial in judgment; but you shall hear the small as well as the great. You shall not be afraid of the face of man, for the judgment is God's. And the case that is too hard for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.
18And I commanded you at that time all the things that you should do.
19And when we (all of Israel) departed from Horeb, we went through all that great and terrible wilderness which you saw on the way to the hill country of the Amorites, as the Lord our God commanded us, and we came to Kadesh-barnea.
20And I said to you, You have come to the hill country of the Amorites, which the Lord our God gives us.
21Behold, the Lord your God has set the land before you; go up and possess it, as the Lord, the God of your fathers, has said to you. Fear not, neither be dismayed.
22Then you all came near to me and said, Let us send men before us, that they may search out the land for us and bring us word again by what way we should go up and the cities into which we shall come.
23The thing pleased me well, and I took twelve men of you, one for each tribe.
24And they turned and went up into the hill country, and came to the Valley of Eshcol and spied it out.
25And they took of the fruit of the land in their hands and brought it down to us and brought us word again, and said, It is a good land which the Lord our God gives us.”

So at Horeb the whole of Israel was clearly addressed. If you want more about the incident at Horeb then I suggest that you read Exodus chapter 19 and you will see again that the whole of Israel is addressed. Thus, “their brethren” must be the Ishmaelites.

Strongs Heb B dictionary says about this word “brother” or in Hebrew akh or awkh (which is known in Arabic as Akh):

“A brother ( used in the widest sense of literal relationship and metaphorical affinity or resemblance): - another, brother (-ly), kindred, like other.”

Since the whole of Israel was here addressed it is clear that this word can very well be applied for the Ishmaelites.

Hischam Khan

24th February 2004, 04:23

You write:

” So it has nothing to do with speaking to God face to face. So yes it is good enough to be known face to face. And as I have proven Jesus was known to God face to face”

I already explained that this doesn’t really have anything to do with the prophecy but let’s continue anyway. You say about Matthew 17 that Jesus (P) knew God face to face but that is not what it says. The verse in Deuteronomy reads:

“And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face” 34:10

Jesus (P) is no exception in this. In the transfiguration, no such thing is mentioned. You quoted:

“No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father."

This is not the same as saying that “he knew God face to face”. Anyway, like I said, this doesn’t really have anything to do with the prophecy. The Prophecy says:

1) A Prophet will be raised from their brethren – works for Muhammad (P) and not for Jesus (P).

2) He will be like Moses – I will yet show how Muhammad (P) is like him in some very important things and that Jesus (P) is not.

3) He will speak in God’s name – Nobody spoke in God’s name as much as Muhammad (P) not even Jesus (P)

4) His prophecies must come true. – Muhammad’s (P) prophecies came true right to the word. I would however say that Jesus’ (P) prophecies also came true.

5) He must be followed – So Muhammad (P) must be followed.

The above mentioned points are part of the context and of the prophecy and not what you mention from Chapter 34.

You wrote:

“that if you consider the Quran to be the absolute truth, then there can be no faults in it. And if the Quran tells Muhammed that he will be found mentioned in the scriptures, and it is proven that indeed he is not, then obviously there’s a problem the Muslim has to deal with.”

First of all, I don’t know how sure you can be that the Scripture that you have today is the same Scripture as was referred to (which the Jews had). I’m pretty sure that the The Christian Scripture that we have today is not the same one as those Nazarenes had (the addresses of the Prophet). Secondly, you seem to assume that it has been proven that he is not mentioned which I also disagree with. So you don’t really have a basis for considering there to be a flaw in the Qur’an. So far, it seems that non of the Muslim members place their faith of Islam and the Qur’an on this prophecy.

You wrote, regarding the prophecy in Acts:

“it seems to me like your twisting this verse according to your own a priori theological bias.”

I gave you my understanding of the verse. I quoted it and explained it by making points on it. You didn’t really tell me where the flaw in my interpretation is, neither did you attempt to give your own interpretation. So, I reckon that at the moment these words of yours mean very little.

Hischam Khan

24th February 2004, 04:26

The Scholar mentions some very important similarities between Muhammad (P) and Moses (P) which hardly another Prophet has:

a. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), began delivering the word of God in a polytheistic and an idolatrous people. Most of the prophets after Moses (pbuh), in contrast, were sent among a believing and a monotheistic people;
b. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), had to migrate from the land in which he started his ministry, accompanied by his believers. Most of the prophets after Moses (pbuh), in contrast, stayed with the people among whom they were sent;
c. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), established an independent state in the migrated land, there is hardly a prophet after Moses (pbuh), who is similar to him in this respect;
d. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), became the ruler of the state formed after the migration of the believers. There is hardly a prophet after Moses (pbuh), who shares this quality with Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh); Muhammad;
e. Muhammad (pbuh) like Moses (pbuh), implemented the Shari`ah (Ordinances of God) on the state that was formed after the migration of the believers and the subsequent establishment of the state under the rule of the respective prophet;
f. The revelation given to Muhammad (pbuh), like that given to Moses (pbuh), entailed the directive of Jihad - fighting - against the polytheists;
g. The followers of Muhammad (pbuh) after him, like those after Moses (pbuh), expanded the state of the believers to great lengths through their conquests.

Peace

Ronnie

24th February 2004, 08:59

Dfndr,

You said you wanted to reply to my points of view on Deut.18, well Ronnie you have already tried and failed im afraid,

You have the right to have that opinion.

I think you are either deliberetly ignoring large portions of vital information in my replies, or you know for a fact you have nothing intellectual to reply to so you try and play with words to make it sound like i have made no case.

Here's my opinion: You have made no case. You set the criteria and then expect everyone to follow your lead. Simply put a prophet like Moses is not expounded on. So the "like" is defined by you as being what you stated which falls apart upon close inspection. Using the Bible to tell us of the events of these two personalities we can easily see they are not alike in any significant way.

Well Ronnie....YES YOU DID MISS THE VERSE(S) because if you scroll up i placed emphasis on at least 3. Let me repeat them for you.

John 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe me [Jesus]; for he wrote about me.

Where? Why would I accept that this is referring to Deut. 18:18?

John 1:45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."


Again, where can I find this? What other prophets wrote about Jesus the son of Joseph? There should be some allusion to a man who is the son of a carpenter or something to that affect right?

Acts 3:22 He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.

Does this not tell you that that Prophet must come first as promised by Moses before Jesus descends back to earth? If I am wrong, then please explain how this could relate to Jesus and his second coming rather than the first as it states.

I mean what else would you like? how specific do you want them to be Ronnie? Open your mind...open your heart to the clear evidence regarding this issue.

How about, "Jesus Christ is that Prophet like Moses"? There are plenty of ways to say it. But what's interesting is that Jesus is NOT saying these words in Act 3:22. So he's not claiming this "prophecy."

You say Jesus never claimed to fulfill this prophecy? He DID, you have eyes, read what i quoted. Its not a matter of interpretation. Moses spoke of the prophet in the law, Jesus said Moses spoke of him in the law....is there anything im missing Ronnie??

Where does it say that Jesus spoke the words I fulfilled the prophecy of a prophet like Moses? It seems forced to me. Moses may have spoken about Jesus but where? Are the verses you quoted explicit in any way?

I have clearly shown without reasonable doubt that Jesus knew God face to face. I supported this with quotations and much evidence and like i expected you had nothing to comment on this.

Where does Jesus speak to God? How does Jesus "know" God face to face? Moses spoke directly to God through a burning bush but there is no where in the entire Bible that even comes close to narrating a story about Jesus speaking to God. You give some abstract verse and interpret it the way you want and that's your evidence. Are all the other prophets not "from" God? If they are not and only Jesus is, how can he then be compared to Moses? If they are all "from" God then they all have "seen" Him, right? Didn't Jacob see and wrestle God?

Jesus performed great miracles. You claimed before that the miracles of Moses and Jesus were nothing alike, i showed you a clear example where one miracles was. And in any event, ive never based the whole proof of Jesus regarding Deut:18 on his miracle performing,. This is simply one of the criterion that had to be fulfilled.

Yes Jesus did perform great miracles, for the most part no different than other miracles performed by other prophets. You showed ONE? Not even one. It some far fetched way you tried to compare the pool to the splitting of the sea.

Regards

Ronnie

24th February 2004, 09:07

Dfndr,

Now in order for you Ronnie, to disqualify Jesus Christ from the prophecy, you have the following to deal with. you must prove that either:

a) Jesus was not known to God face to face, in light of the verses i used to support this in my earlier posts.
b) Jesus was not from any of the tribes of Israel.
c) Jesus never performed any miracles.

This is your criteria not Deut. 18:18. Nevertheless, it's poorer than the arguments made based on the Prophet Muhammad being married as Moses was. In the first, anyone of the prophets could have "seen" God because they are from God according to the Bible. If you disagree then you cannot make this a comparison. Second, Jesus was from the tribe of Israel which automatically eliminates him from the comparison. I'll get into this a bit further in my next post. Thirdly, Jesus performed miracles indeed, yet they were not so special because other prophets performed some of the same exact miracles.

Regards

Ronnie

24th February 2004, 09:24

Dfndr,

You claim that in Deut. 18:18 Moses is not speaking to all the tribes of Israel. The Bible says:

It starts-

The priests, who are Levites-indeed the whole tribe of Levi-are to have no allotment or inheritance with Israel. -Deut. 18:1

Then:

If a Levite moves from one of YOUR towns anywhere in Israel where he is living, and comes in all earnestness to the place the LORD will choose, he may minister in the name of the LORD his God like all his fellow Levites who serve there in the presence of the LORD. -Deut. 18:6-7

If God is speaking to the Levites then who in the world is "YOUR" referring to? Is it not all the tribes of Israel?

Again:

When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there.

Are you going to claim that the land was only given to the Levites? Wasn't the Holy Land given to ALL the tribes?

Further:

For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die."

Who was at Horeb? Only the Levites?

It is far too obvious that Deut. 18:18 is speaking to the masses of the Children of Israel, not merely one tribe (Levites).

I hope that your reconsider this prophecy, even if you stillmaintain that the Prophet Muhammad does not fulfill it. I hope you see that Jesus could not have possible fulfilled it in any way. I can only hope.

Regards

Rima

25th February 2004, 22:30

speaking of prophecies , can you guys prophesize, where banana is ??

oh don`t tell me let me guess: he is bussy solving the dung shortage problem <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

DfndrOfTheCross

27th February 2004, 18:02

Dear Hischam and Ronnie: Since you present similar arguments I’ll respond to your issues in one post, and later address some other issues of Ronnie in another post. Sorry for taking my time, ive had to attend to other responsibilities.

XXXX You say: How did Jesus (P) justify himself in his hometown? Is it that they were faithless because the same was the case for the opponents of Muhammad (P)? You feel so confident in what you state so why not show me where in the Qur’an it states that Muhammad (P) did come with any signs? XXX

The point that I’m trying to make, is that the Bible has made numerous accounts of the miraculous works of Jesus, the Quran even emphasizes this, yet there is no account of Muhammed performing any miracles according to the Quran. My main point in making that point is that one of the main criterion to be like unto Moses was that this prophet would perform great miracles, and there is no evidence of this in the Quranic account of Muhammed.

XXXX You say: You are not being honest. What you are referring to is Chapter 34 of Deuteronomy. Nowhere in chapter 18, where the prophecy is made, does it say that the similarity between the two will be in regards to them doing miracles.XXXXX

I think you misunderstand the relevance of what’s said in chapter 34, you see being “like unto” someone is in itself a very ambiguous term, how do we know what comparisons are relevant and which are not? (further on I will show you I can match the amount of comparisons you list with comparisons between Jesus and Moses). However what chapter 34 reveals, is attributes that made Moses unique, because it states how up until Moses, no prophet had come that was known to God face to face and that performed great miracles. So logically speaking if one was to share both these characteristics with Moses, that would make him like Moses more than anyone else. And since Jesus did, he is more like Moses.

XXXX You say: I already explained that this doesn’t really have anything to do with the prophecy - knowing God face to face). XXXX

Well as I have stated above, I think its of vital importance, it puts the ambiguous term of “like unto”, in a new light as it identifies 2 characteristics Moses had that were unique to him (both collectively and one exclusively). So to be more “like” someone, it would need you to share such unique characteristics – characteristics that Muhammed did not show. And now I will continue with replying to your claims concerning the one characteristic which you still feel is an issue with Jesus – knowing God face to face.

XXXX You say: “No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father." This is not the same as saying that “he knew God face to face”.XXX

First of all, we all acknowledge that the Father is God (although we have differences concerning his relationship with the Son etc anyways). So if Christ has seen the Father (as the verse indicates), and the Father has obviously seen Christ, then obviously they were known to each other “face to face”, I mean how else do you wish to interpret this? Its quite blatant in my opinion.

To further refute Ronnies claim that any prophet can be the “one from God”. Lets look at the other verse where Jesus makes a similar claim, however is more specific in its message.

The thing to note is, when Jesus says "except the one who is from God" he is actually referring to himself specifically, and not merely anyone from God. Lets look at the verse in context of another verse which emphasises this more clearly:

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son (referring to himself), who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." John 1:18. So not only did Jesus know God the Father as direct as face to face (he has seen God like no other man has), he knew him in such a way that he was a direct declaration of Him.

Therefore logically speaking, when Christ says “from God”, he is speaking literally, since the Bible makes it clear that Christ was sent forth from God the Father directly.

XXXXXYou say: “A brother ( used in the widest sense of literal relationship and metaphorical affinity or resemblance): - another, brother (-ly), kindred, like other.” Since the whole of Israel was here addressed it is clear that this word can very well be applied for the Ishmaelites.XXXX

Two things to note, personally I don’t think that by bringing our attention to the definition it has proved anything. However, according to that definition anyways 1) It does not disprove the fact that Israelis are brethren amongst themselves in the “widest sense of literal relationship and metaphorical affinity or resemblance”. I mean obviously one Israeli would have been a “brethren” to another Israeli in the “widest sense”, just as I a Syrian would consider myself brethren to a fellow Syrian without having a direct relationship with them.

In any event, I do not hold the above comment to any importance, the important thing is, what is the basis for your assumption that the brethren of the Israelis are the Arabs? And is there any support for this? As I have shown earlier…no, there is no support and no precedence.

First of all, I gave about 10 examples of where the word “brethren” is used in address to Israel in relation to their fellow Israelis, without a doubt this meant amongst their own people – so to exclude the fact that the “brethren” of the Israelis cannot mean from amongst themselves is already disproven in those verses I cited. Let me recall just one of them for emphasis sake:

“When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, "Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us," be sure to appoint over you the king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your (The Israelis) brethren. Do not place a foreigner (someone who is not Israeli) over you, one who is not a brethren Israelite.”

The second important thing to note, is as I said, there is no precedence for your assumption. No where in the Holy Bible, has the Hebrew word translated “brethren” ever been used of the Arabs as your definition implies!!

But the two times when the distant relatives were identified as "brethren," in the “widest sense of literal relationship and metaphorical affinity or resemblance” they were spelled out and specifically identified by their name and relationship or location:

• "Brothers, sons of Esau" (Deut 2:4 & 8)
• "Brothers of Edom" (Numbers 20:14)

Therefore, there is NO PRECEDENCE, NO LOGICAL BASIS for the assumption that the brethren here are referring to the Arabs. Its all a priori theologically motivated.

The Bible proves beyond reasonable doubt, that indeed on many occasions the word “brethren” which was used in address to the Israelites was in relation to their fellow countrymen and them ONLY, and that whenever the word brethren was used in any other sense of the word, for example to refer to the Edomites, the verse specifically said so.

XXXX You say: 3) He will speak in God’s name – Nobody spoke in God’s name as much as Muhammad (P) not even Jesus (P)XXXX

First of all this is a ridiculous thing to say, because it is true that every prophet speaks in Gods name, no prophet when he preaches speaks on his own authority or his own words. God says to Jeremiah the prophet:

"Behold I have put my words in your mouth".
Jeremiah 1.9

Furthermore we also read in Deuteronomy 18.18 that the prophet to follow Moses "shall speak to them all that I command him". Now we read that Jesus once said to his disciples:

"For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me". John 12.49-50.

A similar text which illustrates this point is found in the great prayer which Jesus prayed on the last night that he was with his disciples. He said:

"I have given them the words which thou gavest me".
John 17.8

In no way, therefore, can the identity of the prophet in the text of Deuteronomy 18.18 be established from the fact that God would put his words in his mouth. With every prophet who is true this is the case and the great prophet referred to in the text, who would be uniquely like Moses in a way that none of the other prophets were, must accordingly be identified from other sources.

XXX You say: 4) His prophecies must come true. – Muhammad’s (P) prophecies came true right to the word.XXX

Well I beg to differ, but that’s another issue. So for arguments sake I’ll accept this, because I don’t recquire it to disprove Muhammed from Deut 18:18. His already been disproven on the fact he is an Arab (which is alone enough) and the fact he never shared the characteristics of Moses that were specifically listed as making Moses unique i.e. characteristics that if were to be shared by another, would make that person “like unto” Moses in the most significant way i.e. Jesus Christ as proven above.

XXXX You say: First of all, I don’t know how sure you can be that the Scripture that you have today is the same Scripture as was referred to (which the Jews had). I’m pretty sure that the The Christian Scripture that we have today is not the same one as those Nazarenes had (the addresses of the Prophet).XXXX

Well I can assure you the scriptures we have today, are exactly the same as the scriptures of Muhammeds time. Todays scriptures are translated from thousands of manuscripts that predate the 7th century by centuries.You can even yourself obtain copies of the Bible prior to 7th century AD in their original greek and Hebrew.

XXX You say: I gave you my understanding of the verse. I quoted it and explained it by making points on it. You didn’t really tell me where the flaw in my interpretation is, neither did you attempt to give your own interpretation. So, I reckon that at the moment these words of yours mean very little. XXX

Yeah that’s a fair enough statement, at the time I was running short of time, so let me give you a run down on Acts 10 now then shall I.
If you actually read Peter’s words in context, a different picture emerges from the one you try to present:

“Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. And a man lame from birth was being carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple that is called the Beautiful Gate to ask alms of those entering the temple. Seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, he asked to receive alms. And Peter directed his gaze at him, as did John, and said, ‘Look at us.’ And he fixed his attention on them, expecting to receive something
from them. But Peter said, ‘I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!’ And he took him by the right hand and raised him up, and immediately his feet and ankles were made strong. And leaping up he stood and began to walk, and entered the temple with them, walking and leaping and praising God. And all the people saw him walking and praising God, and recognized him as the one who sat at the Beautiful Gate of the temple, asking for alms. And they were filled with wonder
and amazement at what had happened to him. While he clung to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the portico called Solomon's, astounded. And when Peter saw it he addressed the people: ‘Men of Israel, why do you wonder at this, or why do you stare at us, as though by our own power or piety we have made him walk? The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the
God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. And his name-by faith in his name-has made this man strong whom you see and know, and the faith that is through Jesus has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all. And now, brothers, I know that
you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for
restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. Moses said, “The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.” And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came
after him, also proclaimed THESE DAYS. You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, “And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.” God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.’” Acts 3:1-26

Peter affirms:

1. The Apostles performed supernatural feats and wonders in Jesus' name.
2. God glorified his servant Jesus.
3. Jesus is the Holy and Righteous One.
4. Jesus is the Author of Life.
5. Jesus was killed.
6. Jesus was resurrected from the dead.
7. Jesus grants faith.
8. Jesus turns people away from wickedness.

In light of this, how can Peter’s words refer to a prophet who denies every single thing Peter just said about the Lord Jesus? What Peter was saying is that all the Prophets such as Moses predicted the event of the Messiah which Jesus’coming fulfilled. NOW THAT HE HAS COME IN FULFILLMENT OF WHAT THE PROPHETS SAID,Jesus has ascended to heaven where he waits for the time of his second coming. That Peter clearly believes that Moses and the prophets ALL predicted the coming of Jesus, and therefore Deut. 18 also refers to Christ and not to Muhammad, can be seen from Peter’s words to Cornelius:

“And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. To him ALL the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” Acts 10:42-43

Notice that he says ALL THE PROPHETS spoke of Jesus, not of anyone else.

Peace and God Bless.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

DfndrOfTheCross

27th February 2004, 18:04

Dear Ronnie regarding your other claims

XXX John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me [Jesus]; for he wrote about me. Where? Why would I accept that this is referring to Deut. 18:18?XXX

Because this is the only place in all of Deuteronomy where Moses makes any sort of reference to a future prophet.

XXX John 1:45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." Again, where can I find this? What other prophets wrote about Jesus the son of Joseph? There should be some allusion to a man who is the son of a carpenter or something to that affect right? XXXX

Well there’s definitely allusion to one who would be born of the virgin, would be the son of God, would suffer, be afflicted and rejected, crucified, would rise from the dead, would be given Godly titles etc etc. But we are delving into a whole other issue now, the main thing is, once Jesus or his disciples make the claim that He is the one Moses wrote of in the Law, there is no other saying of Moses that alludes to a future prophet or Christ than Deut:18:18.
And the rest of your post I have already addressed above.

Peace and God Bless.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

DfndrOfTheCross

27th February 2004, 18:14

Although i have already affirmed above the true importance of the statement of the term "like unto", i will however show some further comparisons between Christ and Moses, just for emphasis, although personally i hold it of no importance no matter how many comparisons one can list:

• Great Lawgiver for his nation. Jesus taught on his own authority the laws of God and raised observance of those laws to a new and higher level (Matthew chapters 5, 6 & 7): He taught as an authority and the people were amazed (Matthew 7:28-29); He selected and taught the two greatest laws (Matthew 22:35-40); He gave a new commandment (John 13:34-35); and at the very end of His teaching and leadership on earth, He delivered orders to His followers regarding "all that I have commanded you." (Matt. 28:19-20)

• Had His Face Glow With Light, but it faded away (Exodus 34:29-35 and 2nd Corinthians 3:12-13). The face of Jesus shined like the sun (Matthew 17:1-5) and is still shining like the sun while in heaven (Revelation 1:9-19).

• Deliverer of His Brethren who would Follow Him Out of Physical Slavery then he gave them the law. Jesus came and gave law and commandments to His followers. Then He delivered them and other followers around the world out of the spiritual slavery of sin and Satan.

• Father was a Mystery to the General Public. The Father of Jesus and the facts of His virgin birth were a mystery to the general public (Luke 1).

• Was Adopted into the Royal Family of Pharaoh. Jesus was adopted by His step-father, Joseph, into the royal family line of King David and Solomon (Matt. 1).

• Rejected being Kingly in Life-style (Hebrews 11:23-29). Jesus did not have the life-style of royalty (Matt. 4:8-11; John 6:15 & 18:36).

• Lived in Egypt. Jesus lived in Egypt as an infant (Matt. 2:13-21).

• Came Out of Egypt to Serve God and be A Lawgiver and Leader. Jesus came out of Egypt to be a lawgiver and leader.

• 40 Years was Tested in Wilderness. Jesus was tested 40 days in the wilderness and had approximately 40 months of public teaching and miracle working.

• 40 Days Fasting (Exodus 34:28). Jesus fasted 40 days (Matt. 4).

• A Shepherd of sheep. Jesus is the Great Good Shepherd of His followers (John 10:11-16).

• Moses Asked that the great Sin of His People be Forgiven (Exodus 32:31-32). Jesus asked that the great sin of His people be forgiven (Luke 23:34).

• Moses had the cloud of God and the voice of God as a witness of his authority (Numbers 11:24-25). Jesus had the cloud of God and the voice of God as a witness of His authority (Matthew 17:24-25).

• Exercised power from God over forces of nature such as wind and water. At the Red (Reed) Sea, he walked through on dry ground (Exodus 14). Jesus walked on water and instantly calmed a storm (Matt. 14).

• Fire was important. At Mt. Horeb/Mt. Sinai there was fire (Ex. 3:1-6; 19:18 and 24:12-18) and there was the pillar of fire (Ex. 13:21-22). Jesus baptized the people with the Holy Spirit and with fire (Matt. 3:11-17 and Acts 2:1-4) and at the Transfiguration His face shined like the fire of the sun (John 17:1-3). Also see 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7; 1 Corinthians 3:11-14; Hebrews 12:29; and 2 Peter 3:1-14.

• Brought water from a rock by a miracle of God(Exodus 17). Jesus Himself was the Living Water which was brought out of the tomb-rock which could not hold Him (John 7:37-38).

• A mountain was prominent in his work where the law was given for a nation. A mountain was prominent in the work of Jesus. He gave the famous Sermon on the Mountain with the law for people of all nations (Matthew 5, 6, & 7).

• His followers were angry when other people showed performing signs (Numbers 11:26-29). Followers of Jesus did the same (Mark 9:38-40).
• An angel watched over his body (Jude 9). Jesus had at least two angels watching over His body (John 20).

• Was mighty in words and deeds (Acts 7:22). Jesus was more powerful in words and deeds (Matt. 7:28-29; and 8:3-13).

• Sent 12 men to look over the land secretly (Numbers 12). Jesus sent out his 12 disciples to look over the same land and to publicly preach repentance and to cast out unclean spirits (Mark 6:6-13).
• Was very gracious to foreign women at wells and gave them water (Exodus 2:15-17). Jesus was gracious to the Samaritian woman at Jacob's well and gave her the Water of Life (John 4). He was also gracious to: Mary Magdalene out of whom He threw 7 demons (Mark 16:9); Marium and Martha the sisters of Lazarus (Luke 10:38-41 and John 11); the woman arrested during adultery and he commanded her to stop sinning (John 8); the widow at Nain and He brought her son back to life (Luke 7:11-17); and He allowed the women to be the first to know that He had been raised from the dead (Matt. 28 and Mark 16).

• Lived modestly, only once being given an offering (Leviticus 8:29). Jesus lived a very modest life, sometimes not even owning a place to sleep (Luke 9:58).

• Was involved in the activities of the holy Tabernacle on earth (Exodus 25-40). Jesus is involved in the perfect Tabernacle in Heaven made by God(Hebrews 8).

• Was humble. Jesus was gentle and humble (Matt. 11:28-30).

• Gave blessings from God to be given via Aaron to the people (Numbers 6:22-27). Jesus gave blessing from God to the people (Matt. 5:1-12) and told His followers to bless others (Luke 6:27-28).

• Got complaints from the people who had been trained to write (Exodus 5:13-23). Jesus got complaints from the scribes (writers of the law) (Matt. 9:2-8; 16:21; and 21:12-16).

• Opponent, Pharaoh, had his heart hardened (Ex. 7:3). Jesus' opponents had their hearts hardened because He healed on the Sabbath (Luke 6:7-11).

• Spoke to the 70 elders of Israel (Ex. 24:1 and Numbers 11). Jesus spoke to the 70 elders (called the Sanhedrin) (Luke 22:70-71).

• Had sacrifices for the Covenant sealed with blood (Ex. 24:1-8). Jesus also sealed His new Covenant with blood (Hebrews 9:18-28).

• Provided ransom by pouring out blood as a sacrifice (Ex. 12). Jesus similarly (Matt. 20:28 & Hebrews 9:11-15).

• Closed the way to the Ark of the Covenant (Testimony) with a thick curtain (Ex. 26:33). Jesus, at His death, had the thick curtain in the temple torn open from top to bottom, opening the way (Matt 27 and Mark 15).

• Was almost stoned by his brethren (Ex. 17:4). And Jesus also (John 8:58-59).

• Was raised by the daughter of the king (Ex. 2). Jesus' mother was a daughter of the House of King David by his son, Nathan (Luke 3).

• Fought against the masters of evil (Ex. 5-12). Jesus battled Satan (Matt. 4:1-10).

• Left a high position in the most powerful nation on earth to suffer for his people (Exodus 2-12 and Hebrews 11:23-27). Jesus left the highest position in Heaven to suffer for His people and to make ransom available to all people (Philippians 2:5-8).

• Spoke the words of God(Deuteronomy 18:18 and others). Jesus spoke the words of God the Father (John 12:50 & 14:10).

• Fed multitudes of people by miracles (Ex. 16). Jesus fed multitudes (Matt. 14 and 15).

• Opened an era of law (Ex. 19 & 20). Jesus opened an era of grace and truth (John 1:17).

• Established a memorial custom (Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover) based on common food elements (Ex. 12). Jesus established the memorial of Himself by a custom utilizing two common food elements of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover (Luke 22:19-20).

• Finished the work God commanded him (Ex. 40:33). Jesus completed His work (John 17:4 and & 19:30).

• Does not have a known tomb where the body is located (Deut. 34). Jesus' tomb is empty because after death, he was raised up alive and ascended into Heaven (Mark 16:19 and Luke 24:50-53).

• Reappeared unto men after death (Matt. 17:3). Jesus reappeared to people, even to 500 at once, after His death and resurrection (Matt. 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20 & 21; and Acts 1:1-
•
Was rejected by his family (Numbers 12). Jesus' own half-brothers rejected Him at first (Matt. 13:55 & John 7:5). But, later at least two were believers and wrote the two New Testament books of James and Jude.

"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

Hischam Khan

28th February 2004, 12:59

PEACE

In regards to miracles, both the Bible and the Qur’an make it clear that they are from God and not those Prophets. Thus, Muhammad (P) also came with signs from God. There mere fact that you couldn't cite a verse as I requested (where it states explicitly that Muhammad peace be upon him never came with signs) shows that you can’t prove your statement.

Concerning chapter 34, I already made it clear that this is not part of the context of the Prophecy. You are jumping 16 chapters ahead. We are concerned with Deuteronomy 18:18 and its context. Furthermore, being “like” Moses (P) is only one of the requirements of the Prophecy.

Every argument you made, actually collapses on the basis of what I said in my last post to which you made no response at all. You made the same statement that “brothers” refers to one of the tribes of Israel and never even referred to the context which I quoted and about the people addressed at Horeb. I showed you why it is not possible for the Levites to have been addressed but you didn’t reply. I made it clear that the word “brother” can very well be used for the Ishmaelites. In fact, since the whole Israelis were here addressed their brothers have to be another nation.

You cited an example:

“When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, "Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us," be sure to appoint over you the king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your (The Israelis) brethren. Do not place a foreigner (someone who is not Israeli) over you, one who is not a brethren Israelite.”

And think that this proves that “brothers” refers to Israelites, however, in the above and the other examples that you gave it is clearly indicated that the “brother” that is here referred to is an Israelite (hence the word “Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a brethren Israelite”). There is no such thing in the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18 or 18:15 that it says “a fellow Israelite brother”. Similarly you argued that since in other places it is indicated, which brothers were meant, this prophecy cannot refer to another nation because they are not named. However, as I just mentioned it is also not mentioned whether this Prophet would be from among the Israelites though in other places just like in the case of the Ishmaelites, their name is mentioned. Thus, what should we do? Should we conclude that neither are being referred to? I think what is needed is that we look at the context. I showed you from the context that the Israelites are here addressed collectively and thus “their brethren” has to be a brother nation. This fits Muhammad (P) and not Jesus (P). This single point is enough to refute the idea that this refers to Jesus (P). I gave you the full context and my comments on it, but you ignored it. Until you comment on it, I think that your view (that you proved the prophecy to refer to Jesus) is completely untrue.

When talking about speaking in “God’s name”, I was referring to verse 19 where it specifically mentions this. You are right in saying that all Prophets spoke under God’s authority and not their own (this is true also for Muhammad) and that therefore this is in no way unique to any person. However, I still keep the statement in which I said nobody spoke as much in God’s “name” as Muhammad (P). No less than 114 times does the Qur’an mention the ‘formula’ “In the NAME of GOD, the Mercy Abundant, the Mercy Eternal”, what is believed to be the first revelation also started off with the words “Recite in the NAME of you LORD”. This totally fulfils that part of the Prophecy. Thus, looking at the prophecy with all its requirements shows us that Muhammad (P) fulfils them and Jesus (P) doesn’t. Sure, other Prophets (P) could fulfil certain parts of it but not all of it. One of the major problems for all the Israelite Prophets (P) is that they are from among the Israelites while the Prophecy demands one to be from among their brethren. Only Muhammad (P) fulfils this.

You write:

“Well I can assure you the scriptures we have today, are exactly the same as the scriptures of Muhammeds time. Todays scriptures are translated from thousands of manuscripts that predate the 7th century by centuries.You can even yourself obtain copies of the Bible prior to 7th century AD in their original greek and Hebrew.”

I think that this is another one of your totally overconfident remarks. Believe me, one paragraph such as the above is in no way going to prove this. Do you know that I discussed this with others and it lasted a whole thread? Part two has also begun.

The earliest manuscripts you have date around the 4th century. This is far, far away from the time of Jesus (P), wouldn’t you agree? Also, if you acquaint yourself with the history of the Arabs and also the different Christian groups at the time, then you would find that in the 6th century, the Christian Arabs were reported to have had an Aramaic Gospel. Hence; it is not the New Testament or the Gospels (note the 's' at the end) of your Bible but an Aramaic Gospel that is now no longer available. Thus, you cannot argue that just because you don’t find the exact equivalent of the Qur’anic claims that they didn’t exist.

Concerning Acts, you seem to think that the statement “NOW THAT HE HAS COME IN FULFILLMENT OF WHAT THE PROPHETS SAID” refers to Deuteronomy, I tend to disagree. The Christians continuously boast about Jesus (P) fulfilling thousands of prophecies which were made so that is what this could be referring to. However, it is clearly shown that before Jesus (P) will return,

“that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must RECEIVE UNTIL the time for
RESTORING all the things ABOUT WHICH GOD SPOKE BY THE MOUTH OF HIS HOLY PROPHETS LONG AGO. (What was spoken? This :) Moses said, “The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.”

So I hold the same view about this.

Lastly, you made mention of a big list of similarities between Moses (P) and Jesus (P), however, most of them fit just as good to Muhammad (P). They would also fit many of the other Prophets. Anyway, I already stated many times that “miracles” are not required by the Prophecy. In regards to the many similarities that I mentioned which you were going to show also apply for Jesus (p) is something I didn’t see you do. The points which I quoted were:

“a. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), began delivering the word of God in a polytheistic and an idolatrous people. Most of the prophets after Moses (pbuh), in contrast, were sent among a believing and a monotheistic people;
b. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), had to migrate from the land in which he started his ministry, accompanied by his believers. Most of the prophets after Moses (pbuh), in contrast, stayed with the people among whom they were sent;
c. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), established an independent state in the migrated land, there is hardly a prophet after Moses (pbuh), who is similar to him in this respect;
d. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), became the ruler of the state formed after the migration of the believers. There is hardly a prophet after Moses (pbuh), who shares this quality with Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh); Muhammad;
e. Muhammad (pbuh) like Moses (pbuh), implemented the Shari`ah (Ordinances of God) on the state that was formed after the migration of the believers and the subsequent establishment of the state under the rule of the respective prophet;
f. The revelation given to Muhammad (pbuh), like that given to Moses (pbuh), entailed the directive of Jihad - fighting - against the polytheists;
g. The followers of Muhammad (pbuh) after him, like those after Moses (pbuh), expanded the state of the believers to great lengths through their conquests.”

The only one that you attempted to refute was (E). You tried to show that Jesus (P) too came with a law which is not really true. He actually states that he came to “fulfil” not to bring a “new law” or another “law”. Muhammad (P) clearly did. You mentioned a few seemingly new directives which he gave, and following the two main commandments. The Qur’an gives a whole law; meaning a whole set of directives and rules and these were also implemented by the Prophet (P) on His state just like Moses (P). Jesus (P) didn’t have a state behind him on whom he could implement it, he could only say (in honesty) that “my kingdom is not of this world”.

Peace.

Edited by - Hischam Khan on 02/28/2004 07:08:29