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View Full Version : My turn to be a missionary



Yahya Sulaiman
1st February 2004, 04:51
Sorry about the borken HTML here, but I can't put anything in bold, so when this article says that something is highlighted in bold, it won't be--and the words in bold for emphasis will be changed too. But I think it should be easy enough to read anyway.


Introduction

There is probably no inter-religious serious debates that’s more extensive or passionate on the internet than the Muslim-Chrisitan ones. Islam is clearly coming out ahead in it, since it remains (as it has been for about the last two hundred years) the world’s fastest spreading religion, and there is no position from which people more commonly revert to Islam than Christianity. Why is this? As a Muslim I would say that it’s because the superiority of the Koran over the Bible is clearly visible in almost every verse of every surah, and that the superiority of the Islamic philosophy due to its lack of intercession (or rather, a lack of a need for intercession being falsely attributed to God’s relationship to us), is also obvious. I don’t know what a Christian would say.
I’ve written this document for all Christians who are interested in Islam or who debate Muslims, but especially for those who are missionaries, particularly the ones who are always stopping by on our message boards and offering us the tired old anti-Islamic arguments. This isn’t meant to be a scholarly article that you are to try to refute; in fact, it isn’t even meant to be a hand in the old (tiresomely old) Christian-Muslim debates. To put it another way, it’s just my turn to be a missionary now and see if I can make you realize that Islam is the true way and that Christianity is false. In doing so, I’m going to try to clear up misunderstandings, present my point of view, and show you why I think my religion is a corrected, perfected version of yours. If you want to write a rebuttal to this then of course you have the right to do so, and I will always be willing to discuss anything I’ve said with you, but this is not intended to be an attack. Think of it as my doing what you call “witnessing”.




What the Koran Does and Does Not Say About the Earlier Scriptures

Christians are fond of finding ways to invalidate the Koran by the Bible. In fact, they never seem to be able to find anything to complain about in the Koran’s actual messages, in its teachings, except that they do not contain the unnecessary extra element of the Bible, that intercession by an omnipotent and omni-benevolent God is needed in order for our sins to be forgiven. Instead, they will attack the Koran based on the details in which it differs from the Bible, since this is apparently all they can do. From this dodge comes all of their major arguments: the Koran thinks the Bible is infallible but often disagrees with it, the Koran is based on variant biblical traditions, the older scriptures judge the newer ones.
Now first, let me explain the purpose of the Koran, according to its own words (which will always be taken from A.J. Arberry’s translation The Koran Interpreted unless otherwise noted). The Koran tells us that God had sent us guidance before in the form of four earlier scriptures:

87:16 Nay, but you prefer the present life;
87:17 And the world to come is better, and more enduring.
87:18 Surely this is in the ancient scrolls,
87:19 The scrolls of Abraham and Moses.

5:46 We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and We gave to him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition unto the godfearing.

4:163 ...We gave to David Psalms.

So we have the Gospel, the Torah (or the Law), a scroll written by Abraham (P), and the Psalsm. But according to the Koran, the Torah and Psalms became corrupted, and the Jews were consequently given false teachings...

2:75 Are you then so eager that [the Jews] should believe you, seeing there is a party of them that heard God’s word, and then tampered with it, and that after they had comprehended it, wittingly?
2:76 And when they meet those who believe, they say, “We believe”; and when they go privily one to another, they say, “Do you speak to them of what God has revealed to you, that they may thereby dispute with you before your Lord? Have you no understanding?”
2:77 Know they not that God knows what they keep secret and what they publish?
2:78 And some there are of them that are common folk, not knowing the Book, but only fancies and mere conjectures.
2:79 So woe to those who write the Book with their hands, then say, “This is from God,” that they may sell it for a little price; so woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for their earnings.

...and the Gospel and the Abrahamic scroll are long since lost or unable to be positively identified. But now God has sent us this newer text, which is an infallible, final, complete book. It repeats some of their material, but also corrects it when necessary. If it helps, think of the earlier scriptures as rough drafts and the Koran as the cleaned up, perfected final draft.
Christians tend to have a hard time grasping this concept. There is an attitude among most Christian missionaries who argue against Islam that the text of the Koran is of the opinion that the Bible is infallible. They paraphrase Koranic verses about the confirmation of the Law and the Gospel, inserting the phrases “New Testament” in parentheses after “the Gospel” and “Old Testament” in parentheses after “The Law”, as if this were a valid way of looking at things. But most translations don’t say “the Law” but “the Torah.” This makes sense because Arabic word being used is “Taurah”. Furthermore, passages like this that refer to the Law are clearly talking about the Torah in all cases:

3:44 Surely We sent down the Torah, wherein is guidance and light; thereby the Prophets who had surrendered themselves gave judgment for those of Jewry, as did the masters and the rabbis, following such portion of God’s Book as they were given to keep and were witnesses to. So fear not men, but fear you Me; and sell not My signs for a little price. Whoso judges not according to what God has sent down—they are the unbelievers.
3:45 And therein We prescribed for them: “A life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds retaliation”; but whosoever forgoes it as a freewill offering, that shall be for him an expiation. Whoso judges not according to what God has sent down—they are the evildoers.
3:46 And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and We gave to him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition unto the godfearing.
3:47 So let the People of the Gospel judge according to what God has sent down therein. Whoso judges not according to what God has sent down—they are the ungodly.

The reference to the Law/Torah given is to the twenty-first chapter of Exodus:

When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. (Exodus 21:22-25)

I know that the two passages aren’t exactly the same, but remember that the Torah has been corrupted according to the Koran. And in any case it is the Torah being referred to, and the same goes for all other references made to “the Law”. In fact, the Koran does not mention any Jewish scriptures by name except for the Torah and the Psalms. It should be unmistakable from the above quotation and from the passage from Surah 87 that “Taurah” should indeed be translated “Torah”:
Likewise, I don’t see any reason to believe that “the Gospel” means “the New Testament”. I have never heard a single Christian call the New Testament “the Gospel”, and as far as I know no Christian sect has ever called it that in all of history. The word “Gospel” can, in fact, mean only two things: (1) the “good news” that Christianity preaches, or (2) a written account of Jesus’s (P) life. The Koran is clearly using the sense of (2) when it speaks of the Gospel, because this Gospel is a scripture that it confirms, and even quotes:

48:29 Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another. Thou seest them bowing, prostrating, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure. Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel: as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows stout and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them He may enrage the unbelievers.

So which Gospel was this? As you can see from 3:46 above, it was a revelation given directly to Jesus (P), which probably means that he wrote it himself. And as you can see from the verse that immediately follows, this was a Gospel that the Arabian Christians at the time of the Koran’s writing were familiar with, probably the lost Gospel of the Nazarenes.
Now let me clear up another misconception you might be having about the Koran. When it says that it confirms the earlier revelations, this doesn’t mean that it verifies them in the sense of simply repeating them. Why would anyone write such a book if they didn’t have anything new to say, if all they were going to do is confirm something else in that sense of the word? You’d think that were that the case, the Koran would spend most of its time giving positive reviews of the earlier scriptures in a critical vein rather than repeating but also slightly altering the text in order to correct it, changing certain details and making certain laws (like the dietary laws) less stringent. No, what it means for the Koran to confirm the earlier scriptures is that it confirms the prophecies made in them:

7:157 Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet of the common folk, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, bidding them to honour, and forbidding them dishonour, making lawful for them the good things and making unlawful for them the corrupt things, and relieving them of their loads, and the fetters that were upon them.

In other words, we believe that the Koran fulfills the prophecies made by both the prophets of old and by Jesus (P) and John (P) of the newer crop of prophets. It’s in much the same way that you believe that Jesus (P) fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament—with the exception that what you consider prophecies from the Old Testament never appear to be prophecies in context—at the very most you could say that they have double meanings or double contexts—whereas what we consider prophecies of the coming of Muhammad (P) (Deuteronomy 18, John 1, etc.) are always clearly and directly referring to, or at least implying, future events.
That’s the advantage we have over you, the reason why our interpretation of texts we consider to be prophetic is more likely than your interpretation of texts that you consider to be prophetic. The Old Testament passages that are cited in the Gospels as prophecies are of the sort that can at the very most be considered to have double meanings or to have been prophetic in hidden ways. But the prophecies that we claim are predicting the coming of The Prophet (P) are always clear and out in the open, never containing double meanings or double contexts. The book will be given to one who cannot read; God will raise a prophet like unto Moses; there is someone by the title of “the Prophet” who is still expected while Jesus (P) is alive; the Spirit of Truth will come to you. All of these statements and ideas were obviously prophetic from the get go, even if our interpretations of them are wrong. As you can see, we stand on a much sturdier foundation than you.
So the Koran is here to confirm the prophecies of the earlier scriptures, and also to give you a corrected version of their texts—and to do a third thing that I haven’t yet mentioned, which is to explain the earlier texts, and present their ideas, in ways about which Christians and Jews had been previously misled from understanding by their religious teachers. To put it another way, the Koran contains everything in the earlier revelations that we need to know while leaving out all falsities, superfluity and corruptions they had, and is finally a guide to understanding them. All of these things are spoken of very unmistakably in the text itself:

5:15 People of the Book, now there has come to you Our Messenger, making clear to you many things you have been concealing of the Book, and effacing many things. There has come to you from God a light, and a Book Manifest whereby God guides whosoever follows His good pleasure in the ways of peace, and brings them forth from the shadows into the light by His leave; and He guides them to a straight path.

10:37 This Koran could not have been forged apart from God; but it is a confirmation of what is before it, and a distinguishing of the Book, wherein is no doubt, from the Lord of all Being.

33:40 Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but the Messenger of God, and the Seal of the Prophets.




The Specific Ways in Which the Bible Is Corrupted

You may have noticed, flipping through the pages of the Bible, that there are text notes all over the place saying, “Other ancient authorities insert,” “other ancient authorities add” and “other ancient authorities read”. These are places in which someone, somewhere, has obviously decided to add something into the text (which I hardly need tell you is a very dishonest thing to do), and so no one knows for sure what the original manuscript said, because you get so many different versions of it. These are, by definition, corruptions. You will find no such notes in the Koran, no cases of entire phrases or story elements being missing from this version or added into that version, as you will with say, the piercing of Jesus’s (P) side with a spear.
Now remember that the Koran’s claim in 2:75-79 was that the Jewish scriptures were corrupted. It is silent on the matter of the New Testament, because the New Testament had not been translated into Arabic, nor the Old Testament, by the time the Koran was written (Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, Volume X, page 540, Charles Scribner’s Sons). But it is a well known fact that the Torah has been been corrupted by being made into four, alternating, contradictory texts, only parts of which might have been written by Moses (P). After all, the Torah chronicles Moses’s (P) death (Deuteronomy 34:5-10), so you know he couldn’t have written all of it, and yet as I’ve pointed out, the Koran says that the Torah was revealed to him. So naturally, we believe that the Torah has been corrupted, and that fits the facts. (More on this can be found at http://answering-christianity.com/sake12.htm).
The same goes for the Psalms. The Koran says that they were revealed to David (P). Christian tradition also attributes most of them to David. But what are these other Psalms, these Psalms not attributed to David (P)? Do you really think that a king’s book would be intended to contain things that the king himself didn’t write? Wouldn’t it be natural to expect someone to add something the king didn’t write to something he did, after the king’s death, so that all of it is in the king’s name? Do you think that people would really notice if you did that? If it’s all in the king’s name, then they would just assume that he endorsed it. It’s the kind of trick that people pull all the time in politics. Hence, we have more corruptions. The Koran’s claim fit the facts again, make sense again.




An Example of the Koran’s Necessary Revisions

But why does the Bible need to be revised? Why do we need anything after the Old and New Testaments? Can’t they stand by themselves, even with textual variants? To answer that question, let me give you an example of how the Koran cleans up and corrects the Bible while also containing everything in it that’s good. Let’s have a look at the version of the Ten Commandments given in the Torah, with the parts I’m going to discuss highlighted in bold:

You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you. You shall not kill.
You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ***, or anything that is your neighbor’s. (Exodus 20:3-17)

Going over the bold parts in order: God forbids you not from worshiping any other gods, but simply from worshiping them before him (in terms of importance). God is a jealous God, and unjustly punishes and rewards people for what other people do. God rested after making the universe. God forbids all killing. God includes wives in a list of “anything that is your neighbor’s”, right along with oxes and asses. Now let’s take a look at the Koran’s polished version of the Commandments:

6:150 Say: “Come, I will recite what your Lord has forbidden you: that you associate not anything with Him, and to be good to your parents, and not to slay your children because of poverty; We will provide you and them; and that you approach not any indecency outward or inward, and that you slay not the soul God has forbidden, except by right. That then He has charged you with; haply you will understand.
6:151 And that you approach not the property of the orphan, save in the fairer manner, until he is of age. And fill up the measure and the balance with justice. We charge not any soul save to its capacity. And when you speak, be just, even if it should be to a near kinsman. And fulfil God’s covenant. That then He has charged you with; haply you will remember.

As you can see, all of those problems are removed from the Koran’s version, as well as the completely unnecessary command not to do any work on a certain day of the week. Christians will always insist that we and the Koran are both interpreting the Bible naively in this respect, that it’s just a figure of speech to say that God rested, that we’re misunderstanding the tenth commandment, etc. Why does this never convince us? Because the Koran’s version of the Commandments is perfectly fine without the allegedly misunderstood elements. With these elements, you have, at best, a potential for misunderstanding in which most people become ensared; without them, you have the same thing but without the potential for misunderstanding. So however you figure it, the Koran’s version of the Commandments is a cleaned up, polished version of the Bible’s, clearly superior.




What a Difference A Claim Can Make

Now as long as we’re on the subject of comparing the Bible to the Koran, I think I should point out the most crucial differences between them. First, the Bible is a volume of sixty-six (or more) books, written by different authors in different languages and at different times, whereas the Koran is a single work in a consistent psalmic style. Second, there are no alternate versions of the Koran, whereas Catholics and Protestants use two, different Bibles. (Again, this has to do with the Bible being a volume rather than a single book.)
And most importantly of all, the Koran does not need exterior sources to call it the infallible word of God. The Bible is, by and large, a collection of stories and discourses regarding God and religion which are written from a clearly human point of view. The Koran, on the other hand, is a direct address from God to us. The voice speaking throughout the text is always God’s, except for a small handful of points at which Muhammad (P) and Gabriel interject comments of their own, but only as God’s angel (a vehicle for carrying out His will and words) and God’s inspired prophet (in the same vein). And to be sure, sometimes God refers to Himself in the third person in this text, but not most of the time—just as we might occasionally refer to ourselves in the third person (“Nobody does that to David Jones!”), but not most of the time. The significance of all of these things is made clear in the text itself:

16:2 High be He exalted above that they associate with Him! He sends down the angels with the Spirit of His command upon whomsoever He will among His servants, saying: Give you warning that there is no God but I; so fear you Me!

But remember that they are exceptions to the rule. The voice is direclty God’s most of the time, which is not the case in the Bible. From time to time in the Koran God inspires Gabriel or Muhammad (P) to speak His words from another point of view, in order to glorify Him through inspiration, much like David (P) did when he was given the Psalms (which, as you remember, were later corrupted), but most of the time it’s God’s voice speaking to us and in all cases it is words from God.
So we have all of these books before the Koran which professed to be infallible and always appeared to be written from a point of view that is oblivious to this claim that would be made about them after they were in wide circulation. And after enough books (the Bible, the Hindu Vedas, etc.) were dubbed infallible and inspired despite making no such claim themselves, it just began to look like people are universally lazy with their methods of assessing the historicity and authenticity of their holy texts. Calling a text the infallible word of God became really nothing more than a cliched cop-out which allows you not to have to bother trying to solve the enigmas presented by scripture.
And 1 Timothy 3:16 is no exception: it just says that all scripture is inspired, not that the Bible is inspired. For instance, what’s scripture to the Catholics isn’t always scripture to the Protestants, since there are books which the Catholics consider scripture but the Protestants don’t. Additionally, the original compilation that was known as the Bible contained scriptures that aren’t in the Bible we have today, such as The Shepherd of Hermas. So as you can see, “scripture” is a much vaguer term than “Bible”, since one category is much larger than the other. “Scripture” is a broad and arbitrary term; the Bible (or Bibles, rather) is/are a specific collection(s) of scriptures. In 1 Timothy 3:16 Paul was obviously referring to the scriptures used by the person to whom he was writing, since many books of the New Testament had not yet been written by that point. But the Koran is not a collection, not a volume, and in fact it even refers to itself, repeatedly, by name. Example:

12:1 Alif Lam Ra. Those are the signs of the Manifest Book.
12:2 We have sent it down as an Arabic Koran; haply you will understand.
12:3 We will relate to thee the fairest of stories in that We have revealed to thee this Koran, though before it thou wast one of the heedless.

Nowhere in the Bible will you find the phrase “the Bible”, nor will you even find anything telling you that the scripture you’re reading will be compiled with others into a collection that will collectively be the infallible Word of God. But the Koran does refer to itself, and it makes the specific claim to be the infallible Word of God, as you can see:

41:41 Surely it is a Book Sublime;
41:42 Falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it; a sending down from One All-wise, All-laudable.

For that reason I for one find it more reasonable to take seriously the Islamic claim regarding the Koran than to take seriously the conservative Christian’s claim regarding the Bible. All the holy books up until the point of the Koran’s writing were just books that people pretended were inspired, irrationally preached were inspired, despite the fact that these books never, ever read like you’d expect a revelation from God to read: as a direct address from God to us. I think that should be a real eye-opener.




You Have Questions, God Has the Answers

Now, what else would you expect a book to be like if it were inspired by God? Well, it’s kind of hard to imagine since God is such an incomprehensible being, but there are, to be sure, certain things that I, at least, would expect a God-inspired text to do. You have a message from God in your hotmail box. What does it contain? Well, to begin with, what do people always say they want to do when they meet God? They always want to ask Him questions. God would know this, being omniscient, and so I would expect a message sent from God to answer all the questions we’re going to ask in advance. And this is just what the Koran does. Most signficantly, there are three huge, tough questions that have haunted us for centuries, and all of them are answered by the Koran. And, as I would expect from a God-inspired text, all of the answers given make perfect sense.
The first of these three questions is, “Why we are here? What is our purpose? Why did God make us?” In this e-mail of sorts from God, He says:

51:56 I have not created jinn and mankind except to serve Me.

Well there you go. And really, there is no other possible answer. Whatever God made us for, it has to be to serve Him in some way or another. Whatever we’re made to do, that’s how we serve Him. And we serve Him mainly through worshiping Him, but also through obeying Him. He wants to see us live a certain way, so we live that way. It’s the least we can do in exchange for being created in the first place and given a world to live in that gives us everything we need—food, water, shelter, companionship, places to explore, resources for us to make things to enterain ourselves, etc.
Then there’s the second biggest question: what are we? What are our souls, our selves? The answer is:

17:85 The Spirit is of the bidding of my Lord. You have been given of knowledge nothing except a little.

This will probably be clearer if we step outside of Arberry’s translation for a moment and see how M.H. Shakir translates the key phrase: “The soul is one of the commands of my Lord.” So the soul is a command from God. Now there’s probably no way to understand completely what this means, but if you think about it, a command you give does relate to you in much the same way that something created to serve you relates to you. In other words, a command is something you use to get something accomplished, and God uses us to get something accomplished. But that also means that our souls, our selves, come directly from God in the same way that a command comes right out of the mouth of the person giving it. Think of it as smoke coming from a fire. Two different substances, but one emanates from the other, the other obviously being greater.
I think that this is a perfectly reasonable explanation. If some higher power made us as self-aware beings, then you’d think we would possess some characteristics of His (after all, the Creator is obviously self-aware or else He wouldn’t be a true entity to begin with, let alone the ultimate entity) but also be completely different in other ways. We would be a different, lesser substance cast from His divine substance as smoke is cast from a fire. We wouldn’t really be made in His image, despite what the Bible says, because an infinite being cannot possibly have an image. He is totally unbound, uncontained, whereas having an image would bind and contain Him. And yet self-awareness would be something we have in common, just as smoke picks up heat from the fire which bore it despite being composed of a different chemical composition than the fire altogether.
The third and final question that has always haunted us is, “What happens to us when we die?” Well, the Koran goes on at length about Judgment Day and heaven and hell—the most frequent topics in the whole book, in fact, as they’re the most important things to be talking about when God is addressing us and thus deserve the most attention in His letter to us. But how do we know we can believe that anything of our selves will remain after we’re dead? That’s the real question, the thing that people wonder most about death. Once again the Koran has an answer, as you’d expect a long letter from God to:

41:39 And of His signs is that thou seest the earth humble; then, when We send down water upon it, it quivers, and swells. Surely He who quickens it is He who quickens the dead; surely He is powerful over everything.

When we apply inductive reasoning to the matter of death, we can see that in all of our experience, when something is destroyed it isn’t really destroyed—nothing ever really ends, and this long letter from God uses the earth as an example—it dies but is also regenerated. In much the same way, we will be regenerated after our death. That’s the natural cycle of things: life, death, rebirth. It happens all the time, all around us, even on a subatomic level (with electrons). Therefore it makes perfect sense, on an inductive level, to say that our basic selves will probably still exist after we die.
So we have now seen that the Koran has given us perfectly rational explanations for all the big questions that have always haunted us, as you’d expect a message from God to do.




Knowing Your Rebuttals in Advance

Now what else would a revelation from the Almighty bring us? What would it be like? Well, I think that if it answered our questions, it would probably also respond to any objections we might have, or any criticisms we might make of the text, ahead of time. Once again, this is evidence of the author’s omniscience, isn’t it? Wouldn’t you expect a book from an omniscient being to anticipate all the criticisms that will be brought against it and respond to them in kind?
Well, wouldn’t you know that this is just what the Koran does. I don’t see very much of that in the Bible—in fact, most of the Bible is spent not offering arguments and counter-arguments for its assertions, but simply making the assertions. None of its doctrines are argued for; you’re simply told to believe in them. As far as I know, the only parts of the Bible that make even an attempt at this sort of thing are the parts of the Gospels in which Jesus (P) debates and rebuts the Pharisees. (“How can Satan cast out Satan? A house divided against itself cannot stand.”)
But as Sheikh Gary Miller says, there hasn’t been a single criticism, in all the centuries since the Koran was written, that was not being made in the time of its writing, and thus was not already replied to in the Koran itself. For instance, even back then people were making the claim that Muhammad (P) had learned about various traditions from people he knew from various belief systems, and the Koran responded to this claim:

16:103 And We know very well that they say, “Only a mortal is teaching him.” The speech of him at whome they hint is barbarous; and this is speech Arabic, manifest.

Another example can be found in the way that people at the time of the Book’s writing were already saying that Muhammad (P) had compiled a variety of folklore from various sources, along with a team of other authors (“the work of multiple hands,” as Denis Giron would have it), and the Koran responded to this claim too:

25:4 The unbelievers say, “This is naught but a calumny he has forged, and other folk have helped him to it.” So they have committed wrong and falsehood.
25:5 They say, “Fairy-tales of the ancients that he has had written down, so that they are recited to him at the dawn and in the evening.”
25:6 Say: “He sent it down, who knows the secret in the heavens and earth; He is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.”

In other words, if you can make an unsupported assertion, so can we. You claim without hard evidence that the Koran is plagiarized by multiple authors; we claim without hard evidence that is is the Word of God. Pointing its resemblance to earlier traditions is not the same thing as presenting evidence, because if the Book is what it claims to be, the infallible Word of God, then that would mean that if an earlier tradition agrees with it, that tradition is simply right.




The Koran And Its Parallels in Various Traditions

It’s unrealistic to expect the canonized scriptures of a religion to be right all the time, as if the decisions of some committee that put together a volume of scriptures somehow managed to get the correct version of every story in what they compiled. In other words, resemblance to various traditions would not be evidence that the Koran is forged if the Koran is what it claims to be, but only a confirmation of those traditions, so unless you’re going to start off with assumption that the Koran is not what it claims to be—the very thing you’re trying to establish—then its resemblance to various traditions is a total moot point. So your case is either circular or irrelevant: in any case you have no real evidence.
Besides, Christians who utilize common criticisms on the Koran that it has copied its stories from various traditions don’t understand that the same sort of allegations are made about the Bible. Sometimes Christians will talk as if it’s the other way around—they say that we’re the ones who don’t understand that our book is subject to the same criticisms as theirs. But while I rarely see Muslims point out possible sources for biblical material—after all, in most cases the “source” in question would also end up being a source for our own, parallel stories—Christians are constantly chiming in with skeptics about the Koran’s “sources” in various traditions. But in fact, the skeptical critics who make such claims about the Koran make even more of such claims about the Bible, as the Bible is much longer than the Koran and thus contains more material that has the potential to be plagiarized.
For example, there is the possible influence of the flood story in The Epic of Gilgamesh on the biblical account of the story of Noah’s (P) ark. The way I see it, if you can say that the Koran is a plagiaristic compilation of various traditions, then we can also say the same thing about the Bible. In the case of Noah’s (P) ark, we both lose. But the resemblance the biblical account has to the earlier version doesn’t destroy your faith, does it? No, of course not! And why? Because if you believe what the Bible says on the matter, then that just means that if an earlier account said the same thing, they got it right and simply beat the Bible to the punch. (In other words, maybe Utnapishtim and Noah [P] were the same person.) And so it is with the Koran and its various “sources”.




The Old Judging the New or the New Judging the Old?

Along the same lines, Christians are always telling me that the old judges the new, that if there is a disagreement between a newer revelation and an older one, the newer one takes priority and so it indicates mistakes in the newer one. It would be awfully convenient for Christians if this were true, but it’s like saying that any differences between a rough draft and a final draft are mistakes on behalf of the final draft. When something comes along later to correct the mistakes of something that came earlier, it makes no sense to say that it’s wrong just because it disagrees with the thing that came along earlier. At best, it simply makes unnecessary revisions—but as I’ve point out, that is not the case.
. When you say that as a rule, the old is what judges the new, you’re leaving no possible avenue for us to establish that the Koran is superior. In essence, what it really boils down to is, “The Bible is final and that’s that,” in which case I don’t even know why you’re bothering to express your thought at all, since we’re never going to agree to it just because you said so. Besides, if it were a rule of thumb that the old always judges the new, nothing would ever change for the better. There would be no revisions; nothing would ever improve. Every rough draft would be a final draft, because any changes made to the rough draft would be wrong.
At this point the Christian is probably asking me why God would allow His revelation to become corrupted in the first place. After all, doesn’t the Koran say that no one can change His words? Well, for the answer to that question, visit http://understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=7&sscatid=89.
As for the reason why God would allow His scriptures to become corrupted, you may as well ask why God allows any imperfections to exist in His creation. Gradual improvement, slow formation to a definite outline, progress, evolution—this is the glorious way in which God has chosen to make every important event happen. He made us humans through evolution. He made the world we live in through a gradual shaping process according to Big Bang theory. (You may deny these things if you are one of the more conservative Christians, but all scientific evidence is against your position, as well as the opinions of most experts in the field.) And finally, He made our revelations in much the same way. It was all planned from the beginning—there were no mishaps, only an evolution.




The Concept of Mediation

But enough comparing the Bible to the Koran for now: let’s compare our doctrines instead. The way I see it, when it comes to the bare bones doctrines. the most significant difference between Islam and Christianity is the element of intercession. You believe that God gave Himself up, in human form, to die on a cross so that you could be forgiven. But to this very day, after many years, I have yet to hear a single satisfactory explanation as to why it is that any kind of mediation, any kind of bridge betwixt God and man, is necessary for God to forgive us if God is omnipotent and cares about us. All He has to do is say, “I forgive you.” That’s it; nothing else is required.
The only two possible reasons for belief in such a mediation as Christianity teaches are that (a) God can’t reach us without it, or (b) we can’t reach God without it, which implies that God is deliberately not reaching out to us without it, even though He can do anything he wants to and is supposed to care about us. You might tell me that He did reach out to us, by way of the crucifixion and resurrection, but this is circular reasoning. My question is: why were these things necessary in the first place? Why is anything necessary for God? What Christianity is really doing here is presenting God with a false bifurcation: either someone has to pay the price for us, or God can’t or won’t forgive us. Well, that leaves out the option of God simply forgiving us and letting that be that, with no one having to pay any blood penalty.
To have someone else be punished in your place (especially in such a carefully planned and severely painful manner) is not an act of forgiveness, but is, in fact, the opposite of forgiveness. Whether or not you realize it, your depiction of God is basically that of a big bully who just has to let His anger out on somebody, so somebody has to volunteer to be the victim. I’m not trying to insult you here; I’m just describing the situation accurately. This is not a good God we’re talking about. Forgiveness is the opposite of vengeance—the two things can never meet because they deliberately oppose each other. Either you forgive someone or you punish them—to speak of doing both at the same time is like speaking of a four-sided triangle. Could God do something so utterly absurd as that if He wanted to? Of course he could, but as I’ve pointed out, there can be no coherent reason why He should.
The way that the world’s current leading evangelist, William Lane Craig, put it (at http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-bradley1.html) is that

God finds himself in a kind of dilemma. On the one hand are His justice and holiness, which demand punishment for sin, rightly deserved. On the other hand are God’s love and mercy, which demand reconciliation and forgiveness. Both are essential to His nature; neither can be compromised. What is God to do in this dilemma?
The answer is Jesus Christ. He is the fulfillment of God’s justice and love. They meet at the cross: the love and the wrath of God. At the cross we see God’s love for people and His wrath upon sin.

This is the great sin of Christianity’s doctrine of intercession: it limits God. To think that God is so contained and imperfect as to be put into an actual dilemma! An omnipotent and omniscient being will never end up in a dilemma, wouldn’t you say? Craig was talking as if God can be cornered by a situation into a choice between only two options (punish you or punish someone else in your stead). In reality that kind of thing does not happen to a boundless and almighty Being.
Of course, Craig goes by the special definition of “omnipotent” which is in vogue right now, that God can do anything that is logically possible. It doesn’t seem to matter to Craig that nobody ever used this definition of “omnipotent” before Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine introduced it as a rebuttal to the Argument from Suffering—which basically means that they were arbitrarily redefining the word to suit their own purposes. The fact of the matter is, God cannot be totally free and completely without boundaries if He is stuck being able to do only what is logically possible.
Why do I say this? Because what we know as logic is based on the principles of mathematics. So when you say that God is incapable of doing something that’s logically impossible, you’re binding Him to these higher laws, making Him unable to break them. This means that something exists which is self-existent apart from God, and God Himself is subject to it. In all practical respects, that makes the laws of mathematics the real God. Craig is, in effect, speaking blasphemy in two ways, first by pigeon-holing God into a dilemma, and second by binding Him to something higher. And that is exactly what Christianity does: he is simply putting the blasphemy correctly.
So however you figure it, Christianity doesn’t work. There is no way in which the doctrine of the atonement cannot be blasphemous. If God cannot forgive us without sacrificing someone in our stead, He is not omnipotent. If He refuses to forgive us unless someone is sacrificed in our stead, He is not perfectly good. (How could he be, if He won’t do the easiest thing in the world by just saying, “I forgive you,” and letting that be that?) The fact is, all intercession, all mediation, all bridges, are completely pointless when you have an boundless being like God on your hands.




The Concept of Incarnation

At this point the Christian might be telling me that I am applying limited human reason to something that is clearly beyond my mortal comprehension. But as I have shown, it is not incomprehensible at all, but simply blasphemous. Modern day, orthodox Christianity is built around the concept of God becoming a human being with human limitations and even being killed. Of all the types of people in the world, only a Christian can fail to see the blasphemy involved with this. To anyone else, it is crystal clear, but dogma has a way of blinding people to obvious facts that everyone but them can see. I shall now do my best to explain the blasphemy.
Once God becomes a human being, you see, He becomes subject to human limitations. Even if it’s only a local part of him that’s in this human body, and another part of Him still transcends everything, He has still become limited by being divided, as there is now one part of Him that is God and one part of Him that is man. Christians are always saying that Jesus (P) was perfect God and perfect man at the same time. What they don’t realize is that if God is part human, He is not all God. His divinity, in other words, has been soiled, diluted, compromised. There is an piece of Him now that is not God—that’s what the word “incarnation” means—and so not being entirely Himself, He is not entirely unlimited. This is no longer the unfathomable Thing beyond all things we’re talking about, but only a watered down version of it, where a section of it can be touched and seen and smelled and tasted and heard.
In a nutshell, to be meek like Jesus (P) supposedly was is to make God into a meek being, and this is blasphemy by definition. Even if it’s only one of God’s three persons that is being incarnated, and only temporarily, this person is, for the time being, limited, and since this person is God, therefore God is, at least for a few decades of time as we understand it, not unlimited. The paradox that Christians refer to, that Jesus (P) was both perfect God and perfect man, is not really a paradox but an oxymoron—in mathematical terms, what you must end up having is a total of 200%. You cannot be all God and all man at the same time. Can you overrule this is you’re omnipotent? Of course, but as I’ve pointed out, there is no need to, since mediation has the same trick of limiting God. You’re stuck.




Conclusion

I will leave you now to think about the things I’ve said, and I hope you will think about them, long and deeply, and not simply react to them in some way. Give it some consideration, let it soak through. I think you just might find that I’m right after all. But hey, it’s up to you. You have to form your own conclusions. I’ll just leave you with these closing words from the Koran:

4:171 People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not, “Three.” Refrain: better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him—that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian.

5:17 They are unbelievers who say, “God is the Messiah, Mary’s son.” Say: “Who then shall overrule God in any way if He desires to destroy the Messiah, Mary’s son, and his mother, and all those who are on earth?”

5:75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; his mother was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear the signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are!

You might consider these quotes insulting, but I think they make some good points—really, the same points I have made earlier. And I hope that you will consider them.

nr
1st February 2004, 07:10
If God judges solely with respect to deed, then it not only voids God's salvation but our own good works that save others through God, because factors in the enviroment would either increase or decrease the severity of sin, and fair judgement would account for this. Therefore, salvation is not a process that respects our environment, nor can God change the environment in order to save someone. God must directly save someone, and we must consent to His salvation.


Of course, Craig goes by the special definition of “omnipotent” which is in vogue right now, that God can do anything that is logically possible. It doesn’t seem to matter to Craig that nobody ever used this definition of “omnipotent” before Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine introduced it as a rebuttal to the Argument from Suffering—which basically means that they were arbitrarily redefining the word to suit their own purposes. The fact of the matter is, God cannot be totally free and completely without boundaries if He is stuck being able to do only what is logically possible.
I don't believe that Augustine introduced a new definition to the word omnipotent, but rather a follower of Calvin introduced the definition that defies logic. Certaintly logic exists as an attribute of God if God is the truth and God exists. To say that God creates his own existence would be wrong. To say that God creates the truth would be in error. God is truthful and has always existed.

Yahya Sulaiman
1st February 2004, 07:30
You see, you're limiting God by saying that God must do this or that, and that God has to follow the rules of logic, for reasons I pointed out in that paper. If God is boundless and omnipotent, then there's nothing he *must* do. Islam, unlike Christianity, preaches a God without "must"'s.

http://www.freewebs.com/ziggyzag

Yahya Sulaiman
1st February 2004, 07:33
And by the way, Islam does not teach that it is through deeds alone that we are saved. Here is an excerpt from my FAQ from Christians:

Question: How are you saved without being washed by the blood of Jesus? By what you do? By empty works?

Answer: According to Koran 2:62, works are only one piece of the puzzle along with belief in God and belief in Judgment Day. Furthermore, the Koran repeatedly refers to faith and works together, always mentioning faith first and then adding works. (For example, see 4:55 and 103:1-3.) You might also want to take a look at Hadith Sahih Muslim Book 39, Number 6760:



Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: None amongst you would attain salvation purely because of his deeds. A person said: Allah's Messenger, even you also. Thereupon he said: Yes. Not even I, but that Allah wraps me in Mercy, but you should act with moderation. This badith has been transmitted on the authority of Bukair b. al-Ashajj with a slight variation of wording.

http://www.freewebs.com/ziggyzag

nr
1st February 2004, 08:31
You see, you're limiting God by saying that God must do this or that, and that God has to follow the rules of logic, for reasons I pointed out in that paper. If God is boundless and omnipotent, then there's nothing he *must* do. Islam, unlike Christianity, preaches a God without "must"'s.
As soon as you say that God is boundless in everyway you bound him to being boundless. The axioms that logic relies on are the definition of existence and truth. These definitions, I believe, are attributes of God.


Answer: According to Koran 2:62, works are only one piece of the puzzle along with belief in God and belief in Judgment Day. Furthermore, the Koran repeatedly refers to faith and works together, always mentioning faith first and then adding works. (For example, see 4:55 and 103:1-3.) You might also want to take a look at Hadith Sahih Muslim Book 39, Number 6760:
Salvation cannot consist of just transforming the condemned person's environment to be heaven.




Edited by - nr on 02/01/2004 02:32:23

Yahya Sulaiman
1st February 2004, 10:16
"As soon as you say that God is boundless in everyway you bound him to being boundless. The axioms that logic relies on are the definition of existence and truth. These definitions, I believe, are attributes of God."

Not at all. He is not bound to being boundless--that's just the way He is.

"Salvation cannot consist of just transforming the condemned person's environment to be heaven."

Why not?

http://www.freewebs.com/ziggyzag

bopke1
1st February 2004, 20:48
Hi Yahya

I've been preparing, for some months now, an explanation of christian beliefs to Muslims, and I'd like to know, if I could quote your text in its entirety. I think your arguments are worthwhile, and I'd like to respond to them in the text, I'm writing.
Thanks,

bopke1

C-R-O-W-
1st February 2004, 21:41
# we consider prophecies of the coming of Muhammad (P) (Deuteronomy 18, John 1, etc.) #

AND

#The book will be given to one who cannot read; God will raise a prophet like unto Moses; there is someone by the title of “the Prophet” who is still expected while Jesus (P) is alive; the Spirit of Truth will come to you. All of these statements and ideas were obviously prophetic from the get go, even if our interpretations of them are wrong. As you can see, we stand on a much sturdier foundation than you. So the Koran is here to confirm the prophecies of the earlier scriptures #


So in effect: -

(Evidence 1)
The book will be given to one who cannot read

(Evidence 2)
Someone by the title of “the Prophet” who is still expected while Jesus (P) is alive;

(Evidence 3)
The Spirit of Truth will come to you.

(Evidence 4)
Coming of a prophet like Moses in Deuteronomy 18


I notice that the first three evidences you bring forward, their sources are not considered by you to be neither from “The Torah” nor from “The Gospel”.

You say

# So which Gospel was this? As you can see from 3:46 above, it was a revelation given directly to Jesus (P), which probably means that he wrote it himself.#

# this was a Gospel that the Arabian Christians at the time of the Koran’s writing were familiar with, probably the lost Gospel of the Nazarenes. #


So with what you say,
The First evidence you bring forward comes the Book of Isaiah.
The Second evidence you bring forward comes from the Gospel of John.
The Third evidence you bring forward comes from the Gospel of John.

Remember what Quran says
“7:157 the Messenger, the Prophet of the common folk, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel,”

The 3 evidences you bring forward come from OUTSIDE The Torah and The Gospel of Jesus.

Unless you consider the Gospel of John to be, as you implied it to be called “scripture”, was this Gospel of John sent to the author from God?
If you don’t believe the Gospel of John to be “scripture” why then do you, in your ‘missionary’ imply it contains prophesies of Mohammad while Jesus did not write it?

<HR>


# You may have noticed, flipping through the pages of the Bible, that there are text notes all over the place saying, “Other ancient authorities insert,” “other ancient authorities add” and “other ancient authorities read”. These are places in which someone, somewhere, has obviously decided to add something into the text (which I hardly need tell you is a very dishonest thing to do), and so no one knows for sure what the original manuscript said, because you get so many different versions of it. These are, by definition, corruptions. You will find no such notes in the Koran, no cases of entire phrases or story elements being missing from this version or added into that version, as you will with say, the piercing of Jesus’s (P) side with a spear. #


According to Hadith’s there are stories in them that say some people wrote Mohammad’s revelation. Some disagreed with others in how the Quran should be read. In certain terrorise they recited Quran in one way and in another territories they recited it in another way. [Syria]. Each territory preferred certain Qurans, or certain Qurans were widespread in a particular territory. Thus, there was division among the people who’s Quran was better/correct one.
Then later, when that division [different recitations] was reported to the current Kaliph at the time who I think was Uthman, came and asked a group of people/scribes to write the Quran, according to, I think Zaids’ collection. He was one of the [4?] men who wrote the revelation of Mohammad.
Uthman then ordered all other Quran’s, even if they were original to be destroyed. And everyone was to receive the version of Quran Uthman wrote and distributed, and all other recitations were forbidden/not allowed.
Ibn Mus’ud was angry at this decision and refused to neither stop teaching nor destroy his version. It was reported that he could recite 70 Suras, which he learned directly from Mohammad’s mouth. So obviously he thaught he had the correct Quran, and Uthman didn’t.

In Hadith, Mus’ud is reported to have said: -
[I]“I were to know that someone had better understanding than I, I would have gone to him”
And
“I (Mas'ud) have better understanding of the Book of Allah (than they do).”

Ibn Mus’ud’s version of Quran did not contain Sura 1 Sura 113 and Sura 114. I think Sura 1 is not contained in his version because of the statements in Quran, Sura 15:87, which distinguishes the rest of Quran from Sura 1. And there is a Hadith that corroborates his decision to not include Sura 1 in his collection, MALIK'S MUWATTA Book 3, Number 3.9.39

Another advantage of Ibn Mus’ud’s Quran was that it was collected and arranged close to the order of revelations. And as he was with Mohammad in the cave when he recited to him alone, he probably had more knowledge and more authority than Zaid, who was just a boy at that time.


Ubayy’s Quran was later destroyed, and it has 2 extra Suras compared to Uthmans.
Surat al-Khal' which contains 3 verses and Surat al-Hafd which contained 6 verses.


Finally I have read stories of versions in Qurans’ text.

<TABLE border=3 callpadding=3 >
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD>
The Uthmanic text in Sura 33:6 read: -

"The prophet is closer to the believers than their own selves,<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> and his wives are their mothers."
<TD>
Ubai b. Ka`b's text read,

"The prophet is closer to the believers than their own selves, and he is a father to them, and his wives are their mothers."
</TR></TD>

<TR>
<TD>
The Uthmanic text in Sura 61.6 reads

“And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

[The name Ahmad is mentioned, and it is in previous scriptures]
<TD>
Ubayy b. Kab's text reads:

“O children of Israel, I am God's messenger to you, and I announce to you a prophet whose community will be the last community and by which God will put the seal on the prophets and messengers.”

[The name Ahmad is NOT mentioned, previous scriptures are NOT mentioned]
</TD></TR>

<TR>
<TD>
The Uthmanic text in Sura 3:19 reads

"Behold, the [true] religion (din) of God is Islam."
<TD>
Mas'ud's Codex Sura 3:19 reads

"The way of the Hanifs"
</TD></TR>

<TR>
<TD>
The Uthmanic in Sura 3:39 reads

"Then the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary."
<TD>
Mas'ud in Sura 3:39 has
"Then Gabriel called to him, 'O Zachariah'",
</TD></TR>

<TR>
<TD>
The Uthmanic text does not have
“bismi 'llahi 'l-rahmani 'l-rahim”
<TD>
Mas'ud's Codex Only his codice begins sura 9 with the Bismilah,
</TD></TR>

<TR>
<TD>
The Uthmanic text in Sura 37:103 reads

"They had both submitted their wills
(They did became Muslims)"
<TD>
Tashkent MSS in Sura 37:103 reads: -

"They did not submitted their wills"
(They did NOT become Muslims.)
</TD></TR>
</TBODY>
</TABLE>

I have also seen pictures of Quran, written in Arabic that contains notes like Bible in the margin. Obviously Modern Quran’s will probably refrain from giving its readers alternative readings, which are found in old manuscripts. If translators or Quran writers were to write down the readings that are found in old manuscripts of Quran, Quran will probably contain more notes on its margins compared to Bible.

So all in all, Quran does not escape.

Here is a link to show how they used to write Quran, with notes on its margins.
The grey box is the initial text, but the notes that surround the grey box are ‘margin notes’.
http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven/10page.jpg

So I don’t think you should be criticising The-Bible for its honesty.
You should be asking yourself why Quran these days don’t do that.

<HR>

[I]#To put it another way, the Koran contains everything in the earlier revelations that we need to know#

Not quite.
I have said it before, and I will mention it up again.
Muslims advocate the practice of [male] circumcision and deem it to be essential in a believer’s life.
But the Quran does NOT contain this Law [of circumcision] in any shape or form.
Muslims get the idea of circumcision from either The Torah or from Hadith.

<HR>

#Nowhere in the Bible will you find the phrase “the Bible”, nor will you even find anything telling you that the scripture you’re reading will be compiled with others into a collection that will collectively be the infallible Word of God. But the Koran does refer to itself, and it makes the specific claim to be the infallible Word of God, as you can see:
41:41 Surely it is a Book Sublime;
41:42 Falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it; a sending down from One All-wise, All-laudable.#

I can sought of understand which angle you are coming from but the Quran does not claim the Quran you read now, in whatever language, is the one that is perfect and corruption-free.
Quran when Mohammad recited them, the people wrote them down. When people write them down, it becomes open to human error, like the examples I gave you above, and due to human error, versions start to creep in. Uthman decided to write Quran based on Zaid’s version. The Quran you have now is the legacy of Kaliph Uthman.
On the other hand, because the Quran you have now have errors in them, weather spelling or entire verses conflicting other versions.
To me, what Quran claims is that “the Quran in Heaven” in the perfect one, not the one on earth, who had gone through several alterations!

Sura 85:21-22
This is a Glorious Qur'an, (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved!

Quran says that the PERFECT Quran is in heaven.
Allah did not say the protected Quran is on earth. No! Far from it.
It says it is the one in heaven that is perfect.

[p.s. If I am correct, the word ‘Quran’ is derived from the root word “iqra” which means ‘recite’ in Aramaic. So Quran is not an actual Book, so to speak. ]


While we are in this subject, I have read there are foreign words in Quran. Fore example, the word “Injil” is from the Greek, yet in Arabic “good news” should be written as “Bisharah”.

I think Mohammad probably used the word ‘Injil’ perhaps because he heard Christians using that word.
Why the Greek word was preferred over the Arabic word is to me quite odd because the Quran claims it came to Arabs in THEIR own language.

Other words it borrows is “Abraham”.
Abraham in Hebrew has a meaning, which is “Father of many”.
Quran tries to borrow the word by using the word “Ibrahem”.
I have asked several Muslims saying, “ what the word ‘Ibrahem’ mean?”
But they were all silent.

In Arabic the word “Ibrahem” has no meaning, [at least no Muslim has told me what it means]. The name Abraham is better represented in the Arabic language as “Abu Raheem.” which actually has a meaning in Arabic.

The same goes with the name if Jesus.
The Hebrew name for Jesus is “Yah-shua”. Yah-shua means, Yahweh is salvation.
But what does “Isa” in Arabic mean?
I went and asked several Muslims “what does the name ‘Isa’ mean?”
Again, like as to Ibrahem, they were silent.
No Muslim has ever given me a meaning for the word, “Isa”.

I wonder if Muslims have noticed this dilemma.
Why have people/Prophets been given names that are meaningless?

To me, these lists of errors, opens the gate to question Quran’s claim to be divinely inspired.
[At least the ones that are on earth]

<HR>

# My question is: why were these things necessary in the first place? Why is anything necessary for God? What Christianity is really doing here is presenting God with a false bifurcation: either someone has to pay the price for us, or God can’t or won’t forgive us. Well, that leaves out the option of God simply forgiving us and letting that be that, with no one having to pay any blood penalty.#

To my understanding, [though it is limited], God does not have to do anything. He could forgive by just one word.
But I think God from the beginning, planned things out. He was going to create and he was going to give his creation free will. He also knew that many will stray but he still continued in his creation. He also brought laws that man should adhere to. After his creation, man fell and was under judgement as our human parents [adam and eve] transgressed. Ever since then, God has said, if you sin [in most cases] you are to sacrifice an animal, because in that animal’s blood is its life. You see there is the-key point. Sin [intentional sin] God grief.
Yet in the Old Testament God said,

Hosea 6:6-7
“For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice; And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But they, like Adam, have broken the covenant. They were unfaithful to me”

This is a huge topic and perhaps, one day, if God wills, I will write you a more detailed reason, which opens your mind further, with reason.

One thing that I will cover is,
2 Samuel 24:24 “I will not sacrifice to the LORD my God burnt offerings that cost me nothing”


I will read what you wrote again.

Peace.

Yahya Sulaiman
2nd February 2004, 03:39
C-R-O-W, I don't want to get too personal here, you have a habit of swamping people with extremely long posts that take an very long time to respond to in their entirety, even if you try to be as brief as possible in your answers. Now, with that out of the way:

1. Yes, the book of Isaiah is not the Torah, so it is not one of the official prophecies that the Koran was referring to. The Koran mentioned the prophecies made in the Torah and the Gospel, and that's it, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of other prophecies having been made elsewhere. Remember that we often find prophecies made even in the texts of other religions. Every civilization had a prophet; they all knew the future because they were all "given the Book", which I take to mean that they had knowledge of the Koran. The Koran refers to certain texts containing prophecies, but that doesn't mean that other texts don't. The only argument you could pose here is an argument from silence, and I don't put any stock in arguments from silence.

2. I am not interested in what the destroyed texts said. I believe in the official text, which is the same everywhere. When I read it, I don't find any gaps or errors in it. It looks just fine to me. If you have any specific inconsistencies you've found to point out in the *current text*, then by all means, please point them out and we will discuss them.

3. Circumcision is a custom, and if it is based on a hadith that has no basis in the Koran, then I personally would consider it an inauthentic hadith. So the tradition may not bear any real requirement for us. However, there are some medical reasons why it might be useful, which I would rather not get into, as it is a very disturbing topic.

4. The text says, "Arabic speech, manifest," in the translation I used (the one I trust the most). If there are some words in it which are not Arabic, then that's fine, because as a whole it's still manifestly Arabic, whereas the person these critics were referring to was foreign, meaning that his dialect was completely different. Proper nouns change from language to language--that's the way they work. For instance, we say, "Jesus" rather than "Jeshua". We anglicize the word, to put it another way. But (here's the important part) proper nouns are *not considered actual words that are part of the language*.

5. The sacrifice of an animal, historically speaking, has always been about just that: making a sacrifice. In other words, giving up an animal you could have used for your own food and clothes, letting it go to waste, to show that you're devoted enough to your god that you're willing to do that. Christians misunderstand the poetic language of "their blood putting us right with our god" and what not because they fail to understand this concept, the true meaning of a sacrifice.

Again, not to be overcritical here, but please make your posts shorter in the future.



http://www.freewebs.com/ziggyzag

Yahya Sulaiman
2nd February 2004, 03:41
bopke1, of course you may do that. Just remember that my post was meant to be "witnessing", not arguing.

http://www.freewebs.com/ziggyzag

Yahya Sulaiman
2nd February 2004, 04:09
May I hazard a guess, C-R-O-W (this just occurred to me) that the inconsistencies in the Koran that you think exist are the variant repetitions it makes? I think that interpretationfits the kind of information you were presenting. Well, here is an excerpt from my rebuttal to Denis Giron's "Qur'an: A Work of Multiple Hands?":


The Use of Variant Repetitions

Giron then brings up the point of slightly varying conversations in repetitive tellings of a single story. He also said that when you ask Muslims what the exact words are, they never have an answer (which I think should only be expected, given that they’re very unlikely to have combined the passages and memorized the results so that they can just tell you all the exact words right off the top of their heads).

Did it not occur to him that maybe the exact words of the conversation are not being recorded? The whole Book is in a psalmic style, as I’m sure he’s noticed—it’s like a song, with choruses and refrains that recur from time to time. And just as in a song, the chorus’s exact wording may change slightly from time to time, with flourishes, brief comments or “yeah!”’s, etc., or subtly altered phrases. Sometimes they’ll even be rounded off at the end with a new line. An example of many of these principles can be found in the concluding chorus of “The Unforgiven II,” by Metallica, which transforms the usual chorus of



What I’ve felt, what I’ve known
Turn the pages, turn the stone
Behind the door, should I open it for you?
Oohhhhhh, what I’ve felt, what I’ve known
So sick and tired, I stand alone
Could you be there, ‘cause I’m the one who waits for you
Or are you unforgiven too?



into this:



What I’ve felt, what I’ve known
Turn the pages, turn the stone
Behind the door, should I open it for you? (so I dub thee unforgiven)
Oohhhhh, what I’ve felt, what I’ve known...
I take this key and I bury it in you, because you’re unforgiven too (never free, never me)

Because you're unforgiven too....



Passages which do not chronicle events or conversations also get this treatment in the Koran, so why should events and conversations be any different? When I see the blessed Jesus’s teachings briefly recorded toward the end of surah/chapter five, they look to me not like his exact words but like a summary of his teachings. Koran 21:105 paraphrases, but does not quote exactly, a verse from Psalm 37. Why should conversations be any different?

You might notice that everyone who speaks throughout the Book sounds like the same person, and also like the author—-obviously this is because their words are being transferred to the consistent, psalmic style of the whole thing. It’s a poetic, song-like paraphrasing of what they said, and as such might contain subtle variations through its repetitions (as well as separate sentences altogether tacked onto the end or beginning, which I suppose should be combined with the shorter versions elsewhere), as a song might.

http://www.freewebs.com/ziggyzag

mule
2nd February 2004, 04:33
Yahya,

"Again, not to be overcritical here, but please make your posts shorter in the future."

Your opening post is enormous and I'll bet it is as long or longer then Crow's post so I don't know why you would criticize the length of his/her posts. Crow's posts are good.

the mule



Edited by - mule on 02/01/2004 22:38:46

Hischam Khan
2nd February 2004, 05:31
C-R-O-W,

Excuse my intrusion; but I just can’t help it.

You said (to Yahya):

“If you don’t believe the Gospel of John to be “scripture” why then do you, in your ‘missionary’ imply it contains prophesies of Mohammad while Jesus did not write it?”

I am glad that you finally understand that what we mean by the Gospel of Jesus (P) is not the same as the ones which we have today. The Gospels around in the time of Muhammad (P) were not the same as the one revealed by God to Jesus (P), yet they still seem to have referred to the Script as “Injil”. As such, the Qur’an when referring to the original Gospel of Jesus (P) would call it the “Injil” because that is what it must have been called. It also referred to the Gospels in their time as the “Injil” although it wasn’t implying by it that it is the same one as that of Jesus (P). Like any great literature, the Qur’an referred to their Book as it was commonly referred in the environment in which the Qur’an was revealed. Hence, it only refers to it as such because that’s how it was known. We can tell to which Injil (the original of Jesus or that of the time of the revelation of the Qur’an) was being referred to by looking at the context of the verses. I hope that this will help at least to some extend to clarify the Muslim position, if any Muslim thinks that I have misrepresented the Muslim view; I welcome their comments.

What I have just said in the above also implies for the Torah. However, the reason why we accept some parts of the present Gospel is because we do not believe that absolutely everything was lost from the Gospel of Jesus (P). Some of his message may have been written in them and therefore what we find to match what the Qur’an says about the Injeel of Jesus (P) which matches the present Gospel accounts must have survived (according to the Muslims opinion) from the original. This is why we still accept some accounts from the Bible. This should help further to explain our view point.

Hischam Khan
2nd February 2004, 05:33
You said:

“According to Hadith’s”

I do not think that we can base our conclusions merely on the Hadith in regards to the authenticity of the transmission of the Qur’an. There are many other ways of verifying its authenticity. The Qur’an, since its compilation in the lifetime of the Prophet (P) has been transmitted by the consensus of the Muslim community in every generation to the present day. Thus, it is actually a historically established fact that we have the same Qur’an as was revealed to Muhammad (P). Anything which corroborates this would very likely be correct whereas anything which contradicts it must be faulty. Reason being that the Ahadith are micro-history whereas the Qur’an is macro-history; common sense demand that we accept macro-history when the two are in contradiction. Thus, the hadith which mention differences in the Qur’an and also the Ahadith that mention the compilation under Abu Bakr and Uthman (may Allah be pleased with them) are actually inauthentic. If you are interested in making a detailed analysis of this; you would actually find that most of these Hadith are actually also weak anyway (even as micro-history). What I mean here by “weak” is that even if they didn’t contradict an established historical fact like that of the Qur’an; they would still be seen as doubtful.

Hischam Khan
2nd February 2004, 05:37
In regards to the variant readings which you have shown in your box; any reading which contradicts the reading of the masses cannot be accepted as ‘the Qur’an’ because they were not transmitted by the consensus of the masses (from every generation) since the time of the Prophet (P) and his companions (may Allah be pleased with them). They came about, some time after the Prophet (P) and even today, only a small portion of Muslims (from North Africa) recite the Qur’an in such a way. Contrary to this, every place on earth where the companions set their foot; the reading became that of the masses.

Hischam Khan
2nd February 2004, 05:38
In regards to the site and its image with marginal notes; I would imagine that this is not a copy from any of the companions since in their time there weren’t any vowel points. However, I do not deny that it is possible that the companions did make marginal notes and that there are (slight) variants to be found of some of the scripts of old as you have mentioned. However, these would have been personal copies of those companions and any verses which they contain that the present Qur’an does not have must have been part of those verses which were left out of the final revision under the supervision of the inspired Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him), which was done about half a year before his death. Thus, this does not change the established historical fact, which is that we have the Qur’an which was left for us by the Prophet (P) in its final form.

Hischam Khan
2nd February 2004, 05:46
You said:

“Muslims advocate the practice of [male] circumcision and deem it to be essential in a believer’s life.
But the Quran does NOT contain this Law [of circumcision] in any shape or form.
Muslims get the idea of circumcision from either The Torah or from Hadith.”

You are right in claiming that the practice of circumcision is essential for Muslims and that it isn’t mentioned in the Qur’an. However, you are wrong in claiming that Muslims follow it because of the Hadith or the Torah; they follow it because of the Sunnah. The Sunnan (plural of Sunnah) as mentioned so may times before by myself and others on this forum (also the Scholar on the main site has a vast amount of information on this, answering questions etc) are the practices which were instituted by the Holy Prophet (P) in ALL his followers and they transmitted them by consensus to the next generation and every subsequent generation to this very day has received them in like manner. Thus, they too like the Qur’an are macro-history. The only difference is that the Qur’an was transmitted verbally and documentarily, whereas the Sunnan were conveyed through practical demonstrations. I have recently discussed the Sunnah and its transmission under the thread “Is Mohammed a True Prophet ? - Find The Truth”; so you may want to have a look at that.

You wrote:

“Quran when Mohammad recited them, the people wrote them down. When people write them down, it becomes open to human error, like the examples I gave you above, and due to human error, versions start to creep in.”

There couldn’t have been any errors in the compilation of the final copy since God Himself promised to guard it:

“Do not move your tongue with IT, to rush with IT.
Indeed it is upon Us to gather IT together and recite IT,
Then when We have recited IT follow you IT’S recitation,
Then indeed it is upon Us to clarify IT.” (75-16-19)
So the Collection of the Qur’an was under the divine inspiration of God. No human errors possible in this copy, nor in any of the others that he would have supervised before his death which I would imagine to have been several hundred, if not; thousands. This along with the thousands who have memorized the Qur’an has protected it and will continue to do so. Any human errors done by individuals would have been (corrected and) forgotten.

You wrote:

“Uthman decided to write Quran based on Zaid’s version. The Quran you have now is the legacy of Kaliph Uthman.
On the other hand, because the Quran you have now have errors in them, weather spelling or entire verses conflicting other versions.”

I have already responded to the above, but I will say it again that any hadith which contains this is very weak. The one which you are referring to in regards to the collection under Uthman, in its first generation was only known by ONE person. How could something that important which was supposed to have be done by the ruler (Uthman) be known only to ONE person. I don’t think I need to say more on this because it’s just too ridiculous; the claim just cannot be taken seriously. However, if you are really not satisfied I am prepared to provide more reasons (believe me there are many). I would also like to state quickly that only one person in the first three generations knew anything about the report about the collection of the Qur’an under Abu Bakr – even more unacceptable.
You said:

“Quran says that the PERFECT Quran is in heaven.
Allah did not say the protected Quran is on earth. No! Far from it.
It says it is the one in heaven that is perfect.”

You would have to have some indication for this if it is indeed what was meant. Anyway, the following contradicts this:

“Do not move your tongue with IT, to rush with IT.
Indeed it is upon Us to gather IT together and recite IT,
Then when We have recited IT follow you IT’S recitation,
Then indeed it is upon Us to clarify IT.” (75-16-19)

You said:

“[p.s. If I am correct, the word ‘Quran’ is derived from the root word “iqra” which means ‘recite’ in Aramaic. So Quran is not an actual Book, so to speak. ]”

Literally ‘Al-Qur’an’ means ‘The recitation’ but you can see straight from it that it is the title of the Book; it is a proper noun. Furthermore, the Qur’an as I have quoted refers to its actual collection and also refers to it being written down more than once. It also has the title of ‘The Book’ which I have been told indicates that it was always to become a Book. Also in the final sermon of the Prophet (P); he said:

“I have left you something, which if you hold steadfast to, you will never fall into error – something clear cut – the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Prophet…” Ibn Hisham, Sirah, vol. 4, (Daru’l-Khair), p.191

You said:

“While we are in this subject, I have read there are foreign words in Quran. Fore example, the word “Injil” is from the Greek, yet in Arabic “good news” should be written as “Bisharah”.
I think Mohammad probably used the word ‘Injil’ perhaps because he heard Christians using that word.
Why the Greek word was preferred over the Arabic word is to me quite odd because the Quran claims it came to Arabs in THEIR own language.”

I’m surprised that you would ask such a question, you should know that many if not all languages have words which were originally from another language, so this does not change the fact that the Qur’an came in their language. In fact, the reason why the Qur’an uses words like ‘Injil’ (and I said this in the beginning) is that this is what it was known as, and any great literature would use words in the sense which they were known. Think about how many words we have in our own language like banana and genius (believed to have derived from the Arabic word ‘Jinn’) for example and think of numbers from which we get Mathematics; all this came from Arabic; would you therefore claim that we are speaking a foreign tongue when we use these words? No, these words have been adopted by the language. Think about how many French words which we have; how many Greek words.

In regards to the name ‘Jesus’; yes it is classically known as Jeheshua, but also ‘Iso’, and the word ‘Isa’ is almost identical. But remember that there is nothing wrong with God using the names given to Prophets as known by the environment; on the contrary; you would expect that from an excellent literature.

You wrote:

“To me, these lists of errors, opens the gate to question Quran’s claim to be divinely inspired.
[At least the ones that are on earth]”

By the Grace of God; I believe that I have been able to respond to them successfully; Alhamdulillah.

Yahya Sulaiman
2nd February 2004, 08:38
Thank you for your support, Hischam. And mule, I made that one, very long post because it was an article. As I think you know, most of my posts are very succint.

http://www.freewebs.com/ziggyzag

mule
2nd February 2004, 09:40
yahya,
And? It still was not nice for you to demand Crow write little posts.

mule

Yahya Sulaiman
2nd February 2004, 20:42
Stop twisting my words. I did not *demand* anything.

http://www.freewebs.com/ziggyzag

C-R-O-W-
3rd February 2004, 11:32
From the posts you have been writing, I get the impression that you believe Mohammad is described in the Torah and in the Gospel.

Let me just get something out the way first.
Torah [in the Quranic sense] is the Torah that Moses received.
What Moses received, the Children of Israel inherited.
Quran also talks about Torah being available [in whatever condition] at the time of Mohammad.
Respectively, Muslims consider Torah to be [in whatever condition] from Genesis to Deuteronomy.

The Gospel, Quran says was given/taught to Jesus (by Allah).
The Gospel that Quran describes as ‘given/taught to Jesus’ is NOT described as a Gospel that was ‘written’.
The Gospel that Quran describes as ‘written’ was the Gospel available at the time of Moses [Sura 7:157].

Since I have got that fundamental information out the way, let me continue.

You believe Mohammad is in Bible.
But to be more specific, Quran tells you Mohammad is found in Torah and Gospel. Quran is VERY specific about its claims.

You then say in your post that Mohammad can be found in
‘the Book of Isaiah’, and ‘the Gospel of John’.
Others go even further than you by claiming Mohammad is prophesied in,
The ‘Book of Haggai’,
The ‘Book of Habakkuk’,
The ‘Gospel of Matthew’,
The ‘Gospel of Mark’
and from the Book of ‘Song of Songs’.

This kind of claim can only come from an over zealous Muslim.
I mean, Quran clearly spells out that Mohammad is in, “Torah” and “Gospel”: -

7:157
Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAindahum fee al-Tawrati wa al-Injeeli

Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel

Yet you stray from what YOUR Book tells you and you OVER exaggerate your limits.

So the evidences you brought forward, [the 3 evidences that I highlighted in my last post], are all nullified. Not just those 3 evidences, but also any other evidences that come out from OUTSIDE Torah and Gospel are nullified too.

When you said, #but that doesn't exclude the possibility of other prophecies having been made elsewhere.#
If you are going to say that, then be prepared to lose your so-called ‘authority’ over the Bible as you then are relying on YOUR desires and not on what Quran says.

To tell you the truth, I have looked at some of the claims and frankly they are just pointless claims. They are pointless because they are nonsense. They are nonsense because they are so blatantly wrong and a waist of time. Even my little sister can defeat some of these arguments with flying colours.

#The Koran refers to certain texts containing prophecies, but that doesn't mean that other texts don't. The only argument you could pose here is an argument from silence, and I don't put any stock in arguments from silence.#

I have just explained that. I also would like to add that the only reason Muslims go to Bible to find Mohammad is because Quran specifically directs you. If there were prophesies in other books, I think it would have mentioned it, but it did not

Now about the Gospel…….

[This is also for Hischam Khan] Gospel of Jesus, according to Quran, there is no evidence of it being a written Gospel. Even according to Bible, Jesus did not writ a book, he simply ANNOUNCED the good news/Gospel/Injil.

But, even if I were to ‘superficially’ think the Gospel of Jesus was a written one, By Yahya’s own admission, it is long lost.
#and the Gospel and the Abrahamic scroll are long since lost or unable to be positively identified.#
So to then claim [if you do] that Mohammad is in Johns Gospel because it contains Jesus’ Gospel, there is absolutely no evidence you can bring forward to back this up. This is nothing but DAY-LIGHT ROBBERY.
The Irony is that it is impossible for Muslims to find Mohammad in the Gospel of Jesus because pretty much all of the Muslims believe it has been lost and hardly know any of its context.

What’s puzzling is that Muslims will painstakingly bend backwards to prove the Gospels Christians have are not Jesus’ Gospel, yet Muslims expect to find Mohammad within these books by giving it their blessings [i.e. Saying that Quran in 7:157 and 61:6]. I am sorry but this is TOTAL hypocrisy and double standards. Muslims give certain texts authority [without any real proof of its authenticity] because it is beneficiary for you [as it pushes the right buttons], but if you don’t like the text you strip it of its authority [with a flood of proof] and shrug it off your shoulders. Again, daylight robbery.

The prophesy of Quran will be nullified unless you find Mohammad in Gospel of Jesus.


p.s. I don’t write long posts to annoy you, I do it because I have the right to, and most importantly I want to express myself. I don’t complain/restrict about you or another member in what they write. I try to respect you all and that’s all we need to do.
But I will take what you said into consideration.


Peace.

Hischam Khan
4th February 2004, 03:06
C-R-O-W,

You said:

" I am sorry but this is TOTAL hypocrisy and double standards."

Before saying such a thing about us and hurting our feelings, you should have at least responded to my explanation of The Injeel which I gave. What you did is not very considered at all. Watch as I qoute some of my previous stuff because I see no point in repeating my self if I'm just gonna be ignored anyway:

"I am glad that you finally understand that what we mean by the Gospel of Jesus (P) is not the same as the ones which we have today. The Gospels around in the time of Muhammad (P) were not the same as the one revealed by God to Jesus (P), yet they still seem to have referred to the Script as “Injil”. As such, the Qur’an when referring to the original Gospel of Jesus (P) would call it the “Injil” because that is what it must have been called. It also referred to the Gospels in their time as the “Injil” although it wasn’t implying by it that it is the same one as that of Jesus (P). Like any great literature, the Qur’an referred to their Book as it was commonly referred in the environment in which the Qur’an was revealed. Hence, it only refers to it as such because that’s how it was known. We can tell to which Injil (the original of Jesus or that of the time of the revelation of the Qur’an) was being referred to by looking at the context of the verses. I hope that this will help at least to some extend to clarify the Muslim position, if any Muslim thinks that I have misrepresented the Muslim view; I welcome their comments.

What I have just said in the above also implies for the Torah. However, the reason why we accept some parts of the present Gospel is because we do not believe that absolutely everything was lost from the Gospel of Jesus (P). Some of his message may have been written in them and therefore what we find to match what the Qur’an says about the Injeel of Jesus (P) which matches the present Gospel accounts must have survived (according to the Muslims opinion) from the original. This is why we still accept some accounts from the Bible. This should help further to explain our view point."

So read the above please.

mule
6th February 2004, 19:01
I think Crow did a good job explaining the issue.

Hischam Khan,

I find it appalling that you believe the book that was written centuries after Jesus over the books that were written by the followers of Jesus.

You trust in a message that was written down hundreds of years after the fact rather then believing the multiple eyewitness accounts of the bible. These people were witnesses of what God did and was doing. Defies logic. You trust the word of just one man over the many people that gave witness in the bible.

And corrupt? If it has been corrupted you cannot even pull anything from the bible and say that this is authentic, because you can't tell what was if anything was corrupted. You are picking and choosing what best helps the case of Islam. I can pull from all the bibles that Jesus Christ was deity and rose from the dead, but that text does not count as authentic because it contradicts what the Koran says. That is why Paul gets tossed out as well. Mind-boggling.

mule





Edited by - mule on 02/06/2004 13:04:19

Ronnie
6th February 2004, 19:53
Mule,

I find it appalling that you believe the book that was written centuries after Jesus over the books that were written by the followers of Jesus.

You trust in a message that was written down hundreds of years after the fact rather then believing the multiple eyewitness accounts of the bible.

Don't be appalled. Maybe you didn't know this but the New Testament was written after the fact. Not to mention we aren't even sure who half the writers were. According to my understanding very little of the New Testament can be attributed to the "followers" of Jesus who witnessed anything.

Regards

mule
7th February 2004, 05:42
Ronnie,

Here is what the stubborn mule said:

You trust in a message that was written down hundreds of years after the fact rather then believing the multiple eyewitness accounts of the bible. These people were witnesses of what God did and was doing.

Here is what Ronnie said:
Don't be appalled. Maybe you didn't know this but the New Testament was written after the fact. Not to mention we aren't even sure who half the writers were. According to my understanding very little of the New Testament can be attributed to the "followers" of Jesus who witnessed anything.

All the writers were eyewittnesses of what God was doing. They all saw the mighty works of God. Acts may help you see what I am talking about.

John and Matthew and Peter and James and Jude walked with Jesus as some of his 12. I do not doubt them at all. They have not given me a reason to.

On a side note, Are you aware the old testament was written before the fact?:) Maybe before you go see that movie you should go study about the passover and at least take a look at the prophesies in the old testament. I wish they would impress you.

Muhammad never met Jesus at all nor did he witness anything. He came hundreds of years after the start of the chruch and Jesus(I know you know this). The people that wrote the new testament walked and talked with Jesus. They saw the beginning of the church. John and Matthew were disciples and their gospels say that Jesus died and was raised. Luke and Mark seemed to me to be like historians. They were witnesses to the miracles that came with pentacost and the start of the early church.

I guess it just a matter of who you are going to believe, one man who said a lot of things hundred's years later or the many accounts the men of the bible give within the first century.

Have a nice night,
mule





Edited by - mule on 02/06/2004 23:43:42

Ronnie
7th February 2004, 11:08
Mule,

All the writers were eyewittnesses of what God was doing. They all saw the mighty works of God. Acts may help you see what I am talking about.

How can Acts help me see anything if I don't even know who wrote it?

John and Matthew and Peter and James and Jude walked with Jesus as some of his 12. I do not doubt them at all. They have not given me a reason to.

I didn't ask you to doubt the disciples but maybe you didn't know that no one can say for sure if they wrote what you claim they did.

John- It is only believed that this is the Apostle of Jesus. For sure--no one knows.

Matthew- Tradition says that he is the disciple of Christ but again no one knows for sure. Amazingly he copies most of Mark's work who isn't even a disciple of Jesus.

Peter- It is strongly suggested that Peter wrote "Peter." However, no one knows for sure. As a matter of fact 1 Peter is not from the same 2 Peter, so there are many questions regarding this writer if he really is the Apostle Peter. If he did write it he's only credited, according to my off hand count, 2% of the New Testament.

James- Traditionally he's accepted as being the brother of Jesus but again, no one knows for sure if he wrote it. According to my off hand count he's credited with 1-2% of the New Testament.

Jude- No one is sure who Jude really is. He may be Jesus' half brother...maybe not. He was no apostle. He may be credited with less than 1% of the New Testament.

They haven't given you reason to doubt them because you don't know who they are. The names you say are witnesses to Jesus' ministry are only "accepted" as being who they are claimed to be. You have nothing to support them being who you say they are...you only believe. As a matter of fact none of them are even significant contributers to the New Testament, not even Matthew. He copied most of his verses from Mark. So you have less than 15% of the New Testament attributed to people who you can't really say are "witnesses" to Jesus' ministry. If I'm wrong you'll bring the facts.

On a side note, Are you aware the old testament was written before the fact?:) Maybe before you go see that movie you should go study about the passover and at least take a look at the prophesies in the old testament. I wish they would impress you.

It's "before the fact :)" because you think they are prophecies relating to Jesus. You're so against "Muslims" claiming that the Old Testament discusses the Prophet yet you are doing the very same thing. Just as you have the right to see these prophecies related to Jesus so do Muslims. So "before the fact" can go either way. I have read about passover and the prophecies in the Old Testament and still studying. The prophecies will only impress me if I understand them to be what they are, not what you claim. Just as much as you wish we could see, we wish you could see.

Muhammad never met Jesus at all nor did he witness anything. He came hundreds of years after the start of the chruch and Jesus(I know you know this). The people that wrote the new testament walked and talked with Jesus. They saw the beginning of the church. John and Matthew were disciples and their gospels say that Jesus died and was raised. Luke and Mark seemed to me to be like historians. They were witnesses to the miracles that came with pentacost and the start of the early church.

Paul never met Jesus. Mark never met Jesus. Luke never met Jesus. That's over 75% of the New Testament. It's amazing you have a problem with someone who "didn't meet Jesus." The people who wrote the New Testament did NOT walk and talk with Jesus check your sources.

I guess it just a matter of who you are going to believe, one man who said a lot of things hundred's years later or the many accounts the men of the bible give within the first century.

I guess it's just a matter of who you are going to believe the Prophet or unknown men who never walked, talked or were appointed by Jesus. I urge you to learn the history...before you go watch the movie.

Regards

mule
7th February 2004, 20:19
Sir,
How can Acts help me see anything if I don't even know who wrote it?

Luke wrote it.

Should I assume that you will not give me as much respect as the next person because I do not put my name on my posts?


I didn't ask you to doubt the disciples but maybe you didn't know that no one can say for sure if they wrote what you claim they did.

John- It is only believed that this is the Apostle of Jesus. For sure--no one knows.

Matthew- Tradition says that he is the disciple of Christ but again no one knows for sure. Amazingly he copies most of Mark's work who isn't even a disciple of Jesus.

Peter- It is "strongly suggested" that Peter wrote "Peter." However, no one knows for sure. As a matter of fact 1 Peter is not from the same 2 Peter, so there are many questions regarding this writer if he really is the Apostle Peter. If he did write it he's only credited, according to my off hand count, 2% of the New Testament.

James- "Traditionally" he's accepted as being the brother of Jesus but again, no one knows for sure if he wrote it. According to my off hand count he's credited with 1-2% of the New Testament.

Jude- No one is sure who Jude really is. He may be Jesus' half brother...maybe not. He was no apostle. He may be credited with less than 1% of the New Testament.

They haven't given you reason to doubt them because you don't know who they are. The names you say are witnesses to Jesus' ministry are only "accepted" as being who they are claimed to be. You have nothing to support them being who you say they are...you only believe.

Most of the Books have their name at the top of the books.

I believe that Jude is one of the disciples because one verse says that he was the brother of James and in Acts it says that a Judas was the brother of James and names him with the disciples. And that is why I think he is one of the 12. Whether he was or not would not matter anyways.

You, Sir, believe that the Koran was given to Muhammad. What proof do you have of this? Can you give me a list of the people who wrote down the Koran? That Muhammad's name is it means nothing as his followers could have just added it.

I wonder if you judge Islam with the same measure of rules as you judge Christianity.

I think it is silly to make a big deal about this. I think you have bigger fish to fry. I think maybe you should give me proof why they are not. These people were under the inspiration of God.

not even Matthew. He copied most of his verses from Mark.

You go ahead and judge me and say I have no proof then you go ahead and claim that Mark plagerized Matthew and you have no proof. What you have is assumptions. Who told you this? somebody that lived 2000 years after the fact?

Paul never met Jesus.

Yes he did.

Mark never met Jesus. Luke never met Jesus.

I never said they did. Do you have problems believing the history books?

On a side note.......When were the Hadiths writen?

The people who wrote the New Testament did NOT walk and talk with Jesus check your sources.

You go check your sources. Matthew and John and Jude and James were there. Peter was there. Paul met up with him latter. The other writers were among the disciples They were wittnesses of the early church. They saw first hand God moving "mountains". They saw the miracles that God did among his people.

I don't know why you even bother. How can you even tell who was there and who wasn't if you think that the bible is unreliable? If you say it is unreliable and corupt then how can you know for sure either way?

I guess it's just a matter of who you are going to believe the Prophet or unknown men who never walked, talked or appointed by Jesus. I urge you to learn the history...before you go watch the movie.

They were not unknown and they did talk and walk and all were appointed by God and Jesus.

You never met the Prophet and you are putting your trust in one man who you never met. Who just said he had a revelation. Who just said he was who he said he was. I am putting my trust in 40 different people who said they had a revelation from God. I am putting my trust in the New Testament writers. It does not matter if they are or aren't named it matters that they said that they saw these things happen, they were among the diciples, some with Jesus.

And that is very mean. Did you really have to say that last sentence? Where do you get your history? I may not go watch the movie. I will not be able to understand it and I get too weepy when I read or watch movies about the death of Jesus.

It's "before the fact :)" because you think they are prophecies relating to Jesus. You're so against "Muslims" claiming that the Old Testament discusses the Prophet yet you are doing the very same thing.

No I am not. I never said the bible was corrupt. I hold the whole bible as the word Of God and it is my authority. The message is intact.

I see a person taking the one verse out of John and say this is what God said and at the same time saying that the beginning of that chapter where the Word is God is corrupt. That is picking and choosing. How can a person know what is corrupt and what is not? Where is the proof? How can a person spend large ammounts of time finding "contradicts" and telling people that the bible is corupt and still turn around and say that they know God fortold Muhammad in the bible. How?

Just as you have the right to see these prophecies related to Jesus so do Muslims.

No they don't have a right to say that Muhammad is in the bible. They lost that right as soon as they said the bible was corupt. I can find maybe two or three verse where he is discussed.

So "before the fact" can go either way. I have read about passover and the prophecies in the Old Testament and still studying. The prophecies will only impress me if I understand them to be what they are, not what you claim. Just as much as you wish we could see, we wish you could see.

You are putting your faith and your wellbeing in the hands of one man.

I try to show you to the best of my ability. Please stay away from the Muslim sites that discuss the bible. Please try to stay with Matthew Henry (which you have quoted before). I have other links that may be of help to you since you do not believe me.

cheers,
mule

Ronnie
8th February 2004, 06:22
Mule,

Your entire argument is based on your faith NOT facts. What I have stated is supported by Christian theologians the world over. I didn't visit any "Muslim sites" to help me, actually I've been studying commentaries of the Bible. The history is out there and well known, it seems you're not aware of it.

Luke wrote it.

Have you checked it out for sure? I suggest you buy yourself a study Bible.

Whoever wrote the Book of Acts also wrote the Gospel of Luke...early church tradition assigns them to Luke -The Word in Life Study Bible New Kings James Version (Nelson)

So you're wrong, "whoever" wrote it you're just not sure nor is anyone else.

Should I assume that you will not give me as much respect as the next person because I do not put my name on my posts?

Don't be silly. This is not about a signature. This is about whether the people that wrote the New Testament "walked and talked" with Jesus.

Most of the Books have their name at the top of the books.

So? Don't you know that many of the Books have names on top but that does not indicate who wrote them?

I believe that Jude is one of the disciples because one verse says that he was the brother of James and in Acts it says that a Judas was the brother of James and names him with the disciples. And that is why I think he is one of the 12. Whether he was or not would not matter anyways.

What you believe is not important to me, facts are. Of course it wouldn't matter to you who he is.

You, Sir, believe that the Koran was given to Muhammad. What proof do you have of this? Can you give me a list of the people who wrote down the Koran? That Muhammad's name is it means nothing as his followers could have just added it.

History is my proof. Yes I can give you a list of people who wrote the Qur'an but that's not the issue is it? Don't change the subject this is about the writers of the New Testament.

I wonder if you judge Islam with the same measure of rules as you judge Christianity.

I studied (and still studying) Islam with a far greater scrutiny than you think. It amazes me that you judge Islam the way you do and believe what you believe about the Bible but know little about either.

I think it is silly to make a big deal about this. I think you have bigger fish to fry. I think maybe you should give me proof why they are not. These people were under the inspiration of God.

Silly? Because I ask about the authors of a book you claim to be from God but don't know who wrote it? That's not silly that's honest inquiry. There are places in the Bible that say it's not an inspiration of God, like the letters of Paul, but you disagree I'm sure. I didn't say who wrote what, I said that no one knows for sure and Christian scholars will attest to this, just read on it.

You go ahead and judge me and say I have no proof then you go ahead and claim that Mark plagerized Matthew and you have no proof. What you have is assumptions. Who told you this? somebody that lived 2000 years after the fact?

Judge you? Yes of course I say you have no proof because even your Christian scholars agree with me because they are my sources. Did I say Mark plagerized Matthew? I said most of Matthew is a copy of Mark's Gospel. Now you "judge" me and say I have no proof:

Early church tradition identified Matthew the disciple of Jesus as the author of the Gospel that bears his name. However, the Gospel itself does not tell who its writer was, and it is CURIOUS that a man who followed Jesus as closely as Matthew did would RELY so heavily on the work of Mark who was not among the Twelve (The Gospel of Matthew repeats 601 of the 678 verses in the Gospel of Mark...) -The Word in Life Study Bible New Kings James Version (Nelson)

Is that proof enough? I suggest you do some research on Christianity.

No, Paul never met Jesus and that's a fact. Either Paul heard Jesus or saw him in a vision that's it.

I never said they did. Do you have problems believing the history books?

How do I know a book is historical if I don't even know who wrote it?

On a side note.......When were the Hadiths writen?

Changing the subject again? Well they were written during the Prophets time and were kept as an oral tradition until about 200 years after the Prophets death they were compiled and checked for accuracy. But it's good that you compare the Bible with the Hadiths, that's a bit better.

You go check your sources. Matthew and John and Jude and James were there. Peter was there. Paul met up with him latter. The other writers were among the disciples They were wittnesses of the early church. They saw first hand God moving "mountains". They saw the miracles that God did among his people.

I have. I never said they weren't there, that's not the discussion. The discussion is whether they actually wrote what we have as the New Testament today. No Paul didn't meet him later. You have nothing to base your opinion on. So check again your sources.

I don't know why you even bother. How can you even tell who was there and who wasn't if you think that the bible is unreliable? If you say it is unreliable and corupt then how can you know for sure either way?

I "bother" because you make statements that need a reply and to set the record straight. Did I bring up the reliablity of the Bible?

The rest of your post has nothing to do with our discussion.

Regards

mule
8th February 2004, 07:19
Here are three websites that I picked that tell who wrote what.

<url>http://www.carm.org/bible/biblewhen.htm</url>

<url>http://whychristianity.com/thebiblewhatisitandwhyreadit.htm</url>

<url>http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/authors.html</url>

the mule

C-R-O-W-
8th February 2004, 07:34
I say total hypocrisy because it is daylight robbery.


I did read what you had to say and I did not ignore you.
Injil is probably equivalent to good news. As I have said before, the good news was ANNOUNCED and not read. For that reason I reject the claim that ‘Injil’ was a Book given to Jesus. That is exactly what I said in my last post.
I have always known the Muslim position about what the call “the Gospel of Jesus” i.e. the Book.
But regarding the Gospel of John, Muslims are half hearted about it. As I said [from my experience], : -
“Muslims will painstakingly bend backwards to prove the Gospels Christians have are not Jesus’ Gospel, yet Muslims expect to find Mohammad within these books by giving it their blessings [i.e. Saying that Quran in 7:157 and 61:6].”

This is a pattern that has not escaped my attention.

I said: -
“Muslims give certain texts authority [without any real proof of its authenticity] because it is beneficiary for you [as it pushes the right buttons], but if you don’t like the text you strip it of its authority [with a flood of proof] and shrug it off your shoulders. Again, daylight robbery.”

You said: -
“the reason why we accept some parts of the present Gospel is because we do not believe that absolutely everything was lost from the Gospel of Jesus (P). Some of his message may have been written in them and therefore what we find to match what the Qur’an says about the Injeel of Jesus (P) which matches the present Gospel accounts must have survived (according to the Muslims opinion) from the original. This is why we still accept some accounts from the Bible. This should help further to explain our view point."”

Again, you proved exactly what I have just bees talking about. You have no proof whatsoever that what we have in our Bible is [the parts you accept], was part of the original book of the Gospel Jesus, so to speak. You only accept it because Quran indicates it. But in no way does that prove anything at all.

One thing that goes against Jesus leaving a Book behind is that Jesus promised another Conforter who would teach them all things.
Jesus did not teach his disciples all things, but then the Conforter comes, he would teach them all things. Jesus said, there are some things I cant tell you at the moment because you cant bare it. But when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will teach you ALL things.
Now if Jesus left them a Book that teaches them ALL things, it is pointless for Jesus to say, “I will send you the Conforter to teach you all things.”

[p.s. when Jesus was talking about sending the Conforter, he was referring to his disciples, they the Conforter will come to His disciples e.g. Peter James John Andrew Thomas etc………]

And the fact that we have writings from the early Christian communities, we would know if Jesus left a Book behind. Some of these writers were direct disciples of the Apostles of Jesus. And they were a tight community, so anything bad was going on, people would know. For even one lie, God ended the lives for 2 Christians.

Peace.

Hischam Khan
8th February 2004, 11:11
“I say total hypocrisy because it is daylight robbery.”

That's it C-R-O-W; more insults!


C-R-O-W; please tell me where I claimed that the Injil was a Book. Tell me!


You wrote:

“Again, you proved exactly what I have just bees talking about. You have no proof whatsoever that what we have in our Bible is [the parts you accept], was part of the original book of the Gospel Jesus, so to speak. You only accept it because Quran indicates it. But in no way does that prove anything at all.”

Right, take it easy, I agree. I agree that I accept it although I cannot prove its authenticity without the Qur’an. So this is the second time in which you understood what we believe. But the thing is that I believe in the Qur’an for a reason. You see the evidence that I have studied has proven to me that the whole Qur’an is from God. That its transmission has been secure from error and that if it says something in regards to Jesus (P) then it must be right. Then, if I find something very similar in the Bible, common sense dictates that it COULD have remained from the original.

You wrote:

“[p.s. when Jesus was talking about sending the Conforter, he was referring to his disciples, they the Conforter will come to His disciples e.g. Peter James John Andrew Thomas etc………]”

I don’t think this is a response to me but nonetheless I will respond – do you have some evidence that suggests that the comforter was meant for the disciples?

Again, in regards to the Book, did I say that his Gospel was a Book? You go and check my posts and see if you find that from me. What he spoke was from God’s Divine Book. This Book may not have been written or it may but what remains is the fact that the Bible is not that Book. It may have parts of it but it is not IT.

C-R-O-W-
8th February 2004, 12:25
The general Muslim perception is that Jesus received the Gospel/injil as a Book, [similar to Mohammad] that Christians later corrupted.
I am not too sure about your personal beliefs are but my post was not just directed for you. [meaning that I have merged 2 post into 1, i.e. it’s a reply to two individual posts]

You said
#Then, if I find something very similar in the Bible, common sense dictates that it COULD have remained from the original. #

I agree. The furtherest you can go is to say it #COULD#.
That is quite different from saying it “IS”.

When you say
# common sense dictates that it COULD have remained from the original.#

This to me indicates that at the remote parts of your sub-contuse mind, you believe that Jesus may have left a Book called Injil. Perhaps you can clarify yourself by what you mean when you said that it # COULD have remained from the original #. Original Book? Original saying? Original what?


About the Confortet……..
I only mentioned it as a side note, so readers may not get me confused. You see, some Muslims believe Conforter was Mohammad; I was just being cautious.

John 14:16-17
I will pray to the Father, and he will give YOU another Counselor, that he may be with YOU forever,-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world can't receive; for it doesn't see him, neither knows him. YOU know him, for he lives with YOU, and will be in YOU.

John 14:25-26
I have said these things to YOU, while still living with YOU. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach YOU all things, and will remind YOU of all that I said to YOU.

John 15:26-27
"When the Counselor has come, whom I will send to YOU from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will testify about me. YOU will also testify, because YOU have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:7,12-15
Nevertheless I tell YOU the truth: It is to YOUR advantage that I go away, for if I don't go away, the Counselor won't come TO YOU . But if I go, I WILL SEND HIM TO YOU ….. "I have yet many things to tell YOU, but YOU can't bear them now. However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. HE WILL DECLARE TO YOU things that are coming. He will glorify me, for he will take from what is mine, and will declare it TO YOU. All things whatever the Father has are mine; therefore I said that he takes of mine, and will declare it TO YOU.


These are probable the more simple and straightforward quotes. There are more Quotes, but I hope this is sufficient.

p.s. I don’t mean to insult you or anyone, If you take offence , I am sorry.

Take care. Peace.

Ronnie
8th February 2004, 13:07
Mule,

Carm is not even worth dicussing. The second website states it similar to what I have "accepted author," which does not mean we know for sure. Buy a book rather than depend on sites like Carm. They are so wrong in their list it's absurd. As for the blueletterbible site that's an excellent one. I always use it and have quoted it here. So long before your suggestion I have been using here and elsewhere. You don't need their list to see who's credited with writing the New Testament what you really need is a commentary or Bible study that delves into the author; who they were and what they wrote. A mere list does no good, get the history. Are you going to ignore what I quoted from a study bible? You want more evidence to back up what I said?

Regards

Hischam Khan
9th February 2004, 06:29
C-R-O-W,

You wrote:

“The general Muslim perception is that Jesus received the Gospel/injil as a Book, [similar to Mohammad] that Christians later corrupted.”

I’m not so sure that this is a general Muslim perception. Where did you get that from?

You wrote:

“I agree. The furtherest you can go is to say it #COULD#.
That is quite different from saying it “IS”.”

So we agree.

You asked:

“Perhaps you can clarify yourself by what you mean when you said that it # COULD have remained from the original #. Original Book? Original saying? Original what?”

Original revelation which he received from God and spoke to the people.

You said:

“some Muslims believe Conforter was Mohammad”

So do I. You quoted several passages from John about this “Comforter” and then emphasised the “you” as referring to the immediate addressees of Jesus (P). I disagree. Have a look at the following verse which both you and I believe is not referring to the immediate addressees of Moses (P):

“I will raise up for THEM a Prophet like you from among THEIR brothers; I will put my words in his mouth and he will tell THEM everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.”

From the above, using your reasoning, we would have to conclude that this also refers to the Israelis right at the time of Moses (P).

You quoted the following from John 14:16-17:

“YOU know him, for he lives with YOU, and will be in YOU.”

Look at this one:

“20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be ONE, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in US so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be ONE AS WE ARE ONE: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete UNITY to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.” (John 17:21-23)

So Jesus (P) wants them to be in him and in God. See, the counsellor being in them doesn’t necessarily mean that he is the Holy Ghost. Also, I had said some time ago regarding this prophecy:

“I don’t think that the word “spirit” is used to mean that “ghost-like” “non tangible” thing”; just like in our language the word ‘spirit’ is used differently. The verse in question reads (16:7):

“But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counsellor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."

This to me wouldn’t really fit for the Holy Ghost because he was with Jesus (P) and his disciples while he was preaching. For him to have to go away for the next Prophet to come makes much better sense, at least that’s what I think.

Then in verse 12, 13 & 14 it states:

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.”

Again it talks about when he “comes”, indicating that he is not yet here. Since Muhammad (P) is the final Prophet and therefore brought the final revelation it is only logical that it should guide them into all truth (regarding religious matters). The words “he will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears” are so similar to what the Qur’an says about Muhammad (P) – “he does not speak aught of his own desire, it is no less than inspiration sent down to him, he was taught by one mighty in Power” (– Sura 53:1-5). He took the role of Prophet Hood (being a Warner, one that guides) from him and made it known to them. The Qur’anic verses glorify Jesus (P) in the true sense of the word (see Surah 3:45 onwards and Surah 19 verse 27 onwards).

It is precisely because of what I mention above that Muslims feel that this fits Muhammad (P) the best. Remember that Muhammad (P) was given the title of “the truthful” and “the trustworthy” by his people, so this fits the word “the Spirit of Truth” very well. They therefore feel that this could have been a prophecy which survived from Jesus (P) mentioned also in the Qur’an in similar words. The Qur’an tells us:

6. “And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you (In the Bible; Matthew 15:24, he says “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel”), confirming the Law (which came) before me [“Let there be no thought that I have come to put an end to the law or the prophets. I have not come for destruction, but to make complete“(Matthew 5: 17, as translated in the 'Bible in Basic English')], and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" Surah 61.”








Edited by - Hischam Khan on 02/09/2004 00:36:18

Yahya Sulaiman
10th February 2004, 21:01
Remember also that in New Testament times "spirit" could mean "prophet" (c.f. 1 John 4:1). Hence, the terms would mean the "Prophet of Truth" or "the holy Prophet". The "holy breath", on the other hand (Greek "spiritos") was given in John before the events in Acts supposedly took place. There is a third sense in which "spirit" could mean ghost (like with the walking on the water, they thought they saw a "spirit"), but that obviously doens't apply here. The way I see it, "holy prophet" is the only reasonable interpretation. (Well, to be sure, angels were spirits of God, but that obviously wasn't what was meant either.)

Christians, on the other hand, have taken the confusion resulting from the word "spirit" being used here and not to refer to a prophet, and from it incorporated into the Trinity doctrine a bizarre third aspect of God besides Father and Son--which is the precise reason why there is no single, clear, universal definition of the Trinitarian sense of "holy spirit". It's just words.

http://www.freewebs.com/ziggyzag

C-R-O-W-
11th February 2004, 00:52
#I’m not so sure that this is a general Muslim perception. Where did you get that from?#

From my time talking with Muslim’s, 90% generally say Christians have corrupted Jesus’ Gospel .
But when I challenge their views with debates, they are more receptive to the views I hold. I.e. Jesus announced the Gospel and that the Gospel was not a literal Book.
<HR NOSHADE WIDTH=50% ALIGN=LEFT FONT COLOR=RED>

I said: -
#“some Muslims believe Conforter was Mohammad”#
You replied: -
#So do I. You quoted several passages from John about this “Comforter” and then emphasised the “you” as referring to the immediate addressees of Jesus (P). I disagree.#

If you read Acts, it becomes even more clearer,

Mark 1:7-8 John 1:26-27 John 1:29
John preached, saying, "After me comes he who is mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and loosen. I baptized you in water, but he will baptize you in the Holy Spirit."…. John answered them, saying, "I am baptizing with water, but amongst you stands one whom you do not know, "He who comes after me, whose shoe laces I am not worthy of untying.”.. And the following day John saw Jesus approaching him, and he said, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the universe. "This is the one of whom I said, 'After me comes a mightier man who goes before me, for he was always ahead of me.'

John said that the One coming after him, who was among them, would baptise with the Holy Spirit. When Jesus appeared, John rejoiced and said, look, there he is, the One I was talking about, Jesus, who will baptize you with Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:4-5
Being assembled together with them, Jesus charged his disciples "Don't depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which you heard from me . For John indeed baptized in water, but you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Jesus charged his disciples not to depart Jerusalem. They are to wait for the promise [i.e. Holy Spirit/Comforter/Counselor] Jesus was talking to them about.

Acts 11:15-17
As I [Peter] began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, even as on us at the beginning. I remembered the word of Jesus, how he said, 'John indeed baptized in water, but you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit.' If then God gave to them the same gift as us, when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?"
Since Jesus baptised his disciples, surly Jesus was talking about his immediate disciples.

This proves that the immediate Disciples received the promise of the Father.
They were not to wait for 600 years for Mohammad. By that time they would be in their graves. Rather they waited for 10 days after the cloud took Jesus away. That’s why Jesus said, “in a few days you will be baptised by the Holy Spirit”
“218,000 days _V_ 10 days”
That’s a BIG, a HUGE difference.

<HR NOSHADE WIDTH=50% ALIGN=LEFT FONT COLOR=RED>


[I] #Have a look at the following verse which both you and I believe is not referring to the immediate addressees of Moses (P):
“I will raise up for THEM a Prophet like you from among THEIR brothers; I will put my words in his mouth and he will tell THEM everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.”
From the above, using your reasoning, we would have to conclude that this also refers to the Israelis right at the time of Moses (P).#

You are right.
Since the immediate time Moses spoke those words, the Israelites have been waiting for someone who would be like Moses among their community, who was a Prophet like Moses, who would be a mediator between Man and God. That’s why at the closing statements of Deuteronomy, the author writes,
“There has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom Yahweh knew face to face, who did all the signs and the wonders, which Yahweh sent him to do …in the sight of all Israel.”

Since Moses uttered those words, the Israelites have always been waiting for such a person. When Jesus came, that prophecy came to pass. Amen.
<HR NOSHADE WIDTH=50% ALIGN=LEFT FONT COLOR=RED>


#(John 17:21-23)
So Jesus (P) wants them to be in him and in God. See, the counsellor being in them doesn’t necessarily mean that he is the Holy Ghost.#

Well, if you actually look at the passage again, the reason they were ONE was because of verse 11, which says: - “keep them in Your NAME, which You have given to Me, that they may be ONE even as We are.”

The verse you quoted has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.

P.s. Holy Spirit is invisible.
Luke 12:11-12
“the Holy Spirit will teach you in that same hour what you must say."

Acts 4:8
Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them…

Acts 5:29-32
We are His witnesses of these things; and so <FONT COLOR=red>also is the Holy Spirit,</FONT> whom God has given to those who obey him." (c.f. John 15:26-27)

John 15:26-27
"When the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, <FONT COLOR=red>he will testify about me. You [my disciples] will also testify</FONT>[/B], because you have been with me from the beginning.

As you can see, the Holy Spirit was WITH the disciples Testifying with the apostles about Jesus.
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#This to me wouldn’t really fit for the Holy Ghost because he was with Jesus (P) and his disciples while he was preaching. For him to have to go away for the next Prophet to come makes much better sense, at least that’s what I think.#

Well, you only think like that because you view it from the eyes of the Quran. If you were to view through the eyes of the Bible, you would realise that after Jesus, there were many-many Prophets. Even to this very day, there are many prophets around. The reason people nowadays become a prophet is because it is one of the gifts that God has bestowed upon his children. When someone is born again, the Holy Spirit lives in him or her. This Holy Spirit enables that person to be used by God to fulfil his purpose.
If you even look at the Old Testament, God had already said he would pour out his Spirit upon men and women [Joel 2:28-29].

Even Moses wanted all of Gods people to become prophets.
Numbers 11:25-29
Moses said to him, Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD’s people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!

Note that at when prophecy is directly linked with the Spirit. [Only a Prophet can prophesy].
If you read Acts, i.e. [11:27-28; 13:1-2; 15:30-32; 21:10 etc….] Prophesy and being a Prophet is directly linked to the Holy Spirit.
So when you look at it Biblically, you get a totally different understanding.

So, when you say the next Prophet after Jesus was to be waited upon, Biblically I find it hard to accept your views. I mean, even in the Gospels, Jesus strongly indicates that there will be other Prophets [note: plural not singular] will be coming after him, [Matt 7:15-20; 10:39-41; 23:34].
I hope you can understand where I am coming from.
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[I] #The words “he will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears” are so similar to what the Qur’an says about Muhammad (P) – “he does not speak aught of his own desire, it is no less than inspiration sent down to him, he was taught by one mighty in Power” (– Sura 53:1-5).
He took the role of Prophet Hood (being a Warner, one that guides) from him and made it known to them.#

Sorry but I cant accept that. The only reason Jesus did not disclose more things to them was because his disciples did not have the mind to understand spiritual things. Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3, “I have spoken to you earthy things and you do not believe; how much then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?”

In the same sense, the disciples of Jesus were prone to earthy understandings rather than heavenly things. Though they had a little bit of understanding . But to the other things Jesus desired to tell them, they could not cope with just yet. That’s why Jesus said to them, you should be happy for me that I am going to my Father, because when I go to my Father I will ask him to send you the Comforter, and when I send him to you, you will be able to understand the heavenly things I desired to tell you about when I lived among you.
Again, the Apostle Paul corroborates this by saying in

[B]1 Corinthians 2
“But to us, God revealed them through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God, except God's Spirit. But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that were freely given to us by God. Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. <FONT COLOR=RED>Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned.</FONT> But he who is spiritual discerns all things”

So you see, when the Holy Spirit came to the disciples at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit enabled the disciples to understand spiritual things that Jesus didn’t teach them while he was walking this earth. So again, what the Spirit revealed to the Disciples came from Jesus .

I hope now you can understand the reasons why I would disagree with your views.
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[I][B] #The Qur’anic verses glorify Jesus (P) in the true sense of the word (see Surah 3:45 onwards and Surah 19 verse 27 onwards). #

Well, even the Bible glorifies Jesus in that sense. Or if you like, the Gospels glorify Jesus in a greater volume.
But is that the kind of glory Jesus was talking about? I say no.
I say the glory that the Holy Spirit gives Jesus comes from the Father. [John 8:54; John 11:4; 13:31-32; 17:1,5,10, 22,24 etc…]
So the glory is not in the written code. No book can ever glorify Jesus in the proper way.
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#It is precisely because of what I mention above that Muslims feel that this fits Muhammad (P) the best. Remember that Muhammad (P) was given the title of “the truthful” and “the trustworthy” by his people, so this fits the word “the Spirit of Truth” very well. They therefore feel that this could have been a prophecy which survived from Jesus (P) mentioned also in the Qur’an in similar words.#

Well, Mohammad is not called the Spirit of Truth in Quran. Instead we find that the Spirit that came to Mohammad is called, “al roohu al ameen”. “The Spirit The Truth/ Trustworthy.”
Thus, according to Quran, there is more legitimacy if you called that Spirit [Gabriel?] ‘the Spirit of Truth’ compared to Mohammad.

As you said yourself, # Muhammad (P) was given the title of “the truthful” and “the trustworthy” by his people #.
So basically the names “the truthful” and “the trustworthy” were not given to Mohammad by God or by any other Prophet, rather by his people.

Sorry but doesn’t this defeat your whole argument?

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Peace

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Edited by - C-R-O-W- on 02/10/2004 18:54:13

C-R-O-W-
13th February 2004, 01:42
#Remember also that in New Testament times "spirit" could mean "prophet" (c.f. 1 John 4:1).#

In that case [1John4:1] it does speak about the spirit of man but that is completely different from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is described as one who gives instantaneous understanding to ones mind, and it is sent to those who ask the Father. And that Holy Spirit lives inside of people. There is obviously obvious differences between Holy Spirit and 1John4:1.

Peace


When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things.

Hischam Khan
13th February 2004, 08:51
C-R-O-W,

I am a Muslim, I see Muslims every day of my life. I am not sure that I would come to the conclusion that you do (which is :) – “The general Muslim perception is that Jesus received the Gospel/injil as a Book, [similar to Mohammad]”. Anyway, I have read that there was such a Book as “the Book of Jesus” but that it is not available anymore. It is said that it was lost early on. Now don’t get me wrong, I am not claiming that he actually brought a Book nor am I saying that he didn’t, all I’m saying is that from what I have read (which is not from Muslim sources by the way), there was a Book from Jesus (P). It is not impossible that this was the Divine Gospel that he was sent with. You may also be interested to know that it is said that the Christians in the time of Muhammad (P) were known as “Nassara” which probably means that they were Nazarene Christians, which is a Judeo Christian sect/group. They had a book called the Injeel (the Gospel) and this was in Aramaic and they believed it to be from Jesus (P). Unfortunately this Book is no longer available.

In regards to what you said in the beginning of your last post about John the Baptist, you mention something about Jesus (P) coming with the “Holly Spirit” – that seems to have been the main message that you were trying to deliver. I’d like to remind you that there is no separate word (at least to my knowledge) in Greek for (Spirit & Ghost); the word “Pneuma” can mean both. Thus in this case it may be more correctly translated as “Holy Ghost”. That would solve that problem. Hence, I do not believe that this refutes what I was saying.

In regards to what you quoted from Acts, you should realise that none of what you said shows explicitly that Jesus’ (P) prophecy regarding the “Comforter”/ “Counselor”/ “Kind friend” was here referred to. Remember that Jesus (P) in John 20:22 was also supposed to have breathed into them the Holy Spirit, so why they needed to wait for it when they already had it is strange, unless the others where still waiting. But nowhere does he make it clear that he was referring to the “Comforter”; please remember that the word “Spirit” can be used differently.

You wrote:

“Since Moses uttered those words, the Israelites have always been waiting for such a person. When Jesus came, that prophecy came to pass. Amen.”

Right, so you say that “the Comforter” couldn’t have come 600 hundred years later because that would be too late but the Prophet (who by the way would come from among their “Brethren”) could come 1200 years later in the form of Jesus (P)? How ironic!

You wrote:

“P.s. Holy Spirit is invisible.”

Depends on the context in which you are using the word “Spirit”. Even in our language, “Spirit” does not always refer to something “invisible”. It would depend on the context in which the word is being used. So far, I feel that the context indicates that in the referred verses (in regards to the Comforter) the word “Spirit” refers to a man that would come after Jesus (P).

You quoted John 15:26 & 27 and add the words “my disciples” in brackets – THESE WORDS ARE NOT IN THE TEXT. That’s the way you interpret it. Don’t worry, there is nothing wrong with you giving your interpretation, you have every right. But remember that this is not in the text. I reckon that Jesus (P) could have been talking in the same way as Moses (P) was when he said “The Lord YOUR God will raise up for YOU a Prophet from among YOUR brethren”; here you believe he refers to Jesus (P) and he was not among them. He came about 1200 years later. So, if you do not interpret this in the sense of the immediate addressees being meant, why should we do so for Jesus (P) when he refers to the Comforter? By the way, I’m not saying that I agree with you when you say that the Prophet (P) from Deuteronomy was Jesus (P) but I’m just showing you that you yourself do not interpret the word “you” as necessarily referring to the immediate addressees.

You wrote:

“If you were to view through the eyes of the Bible, you would realise that after Jesus, there were many-many Prophets.”

Please, don’t you start that too! I view it from the eyes of a Scripture that came centuries later (you claim), but so do you (the Books of the New Testament and many from the Old) came long after Deuteronomy. So there wouldn’t be any difference there. Remember, that what you see as one Scripture (the Holy Bible), wasn’t always such. It wouldn’t be much different as to if I took the Qur’an and added that and called it the Last Testament of the same Book called “The library of Books (Bible)”.

You wrote:

“Biblically I find it hard to accept your views. I mean, even in the Gospels, Jesus strongly indicates that there will be other Prophets”

Strange, so you think that he prophesised many Prophets but Muhammad (P) can’t be one of them!

You wrote:

“Well, Mohammad is not called the Spirit of Truth in Quran. Instead we find that the Spirit that came to Mohammad is called, “al roohu al ameen”. “The Spirit The Truth/ Trustworthy.”
Thus, according to Quran, there is more legitimacy if you called that Spirit [Gabriel?] ‘the Spirit of Truth’ compared to Mohammad.”

So you are saying that it would make better sense to say ‘the Spirit of truth’ (which would be a translation of the word ‘Al-Ruh-ul-Ameen’) was here referred to; hmm, interesting. Maybe so, but obviously this ‘truthful Spirit’ delivered the Message through Muhammad (P). So the prophecy would still have been fulfilled in Muhammad (P), even if it refers to the Spirit that came to him. What you referred to in Acts, is referring to another prophecy of Jesus in my opinion.

You wrote:

“Sorry but doesn’t this defeat your whole argument?”

Not quite. But see for yourself.

Peace.

P.S.

A verse in the Qur’an referring to the ‘The Spirit of Truth’ (Al-Ruh-ul-Ameen):

192. “Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds:

193. With it came down the spirit of Faith and Truth-

194. To thy heart and mind, that thou mayest admonish.

195. In the perspicuous Arabic tongue.

196. Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples.

197. Is it not a Sign to them that the Learned of the Children of Israel knew it (as true)?

198. Had We revealed it to any of the non-Arabs,

199. And had he recited it to them, they would not have believed in it.”

[Surah 26]


The Children of Israel knew it and it was announced in their Books, that’s interesting.




Edited by - Hischam Khan on 02/13/2004 19:53:04

C-R-O-W-
14th February 2004, 05:11
#Right, so you say that “the Comforter” couldn’t have come 600 hundred years later because that would be too late but the Prophet (who by the way would come from among their “Brethren”) could come 1200 years later in the form of Jesus (P)? How ironic! #

Since Moses was the leader of the Israelite Community, and the chief spokesman of God, the mediator between his community and God, what would be the use of raising someone like Moses when Moses was already on the scene? Will Moses retire from being the ambassador of God? NO.
And since No prophet “Like Moses” (one whom God spoke face to face, whom did great wonders and signs, who feeds a people food from heaven) had risen in the immediate addresses of the community of Israelites, it doesn’t take a lot to realise that it would be to a people after Moses and his community. There was no prophet who was like Moses around Moses’ time, who was ‘a prophet like’ Moses.
Quite logical.

#So, if you do not interpret this in the sense of the immediate addressees being meant, why should we do so for Jesus (P) when he refers to the Comforter?#

John 20:21-22
Jesus therefore said to them again, "Peace be to you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." When he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit!

Jesus breathed on them and said, “Receive”.
When Jesus did that, John 7:39; 14:16-17,26; 15:26; 16:7-8,13 were all fulfilled.
And Acts 1:1-2 was the fulfilment of Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8.

The first fulfilment was that of them receiving the Holy Spirit while the second fulfilment was of the Power and Gift aspect of the Holy Spirit. If I am correct, there is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being Baptized by the Holy Spirit.
When you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you are born anew [John 3:7-8].
When you are baptized, [you are born anew and] the Holy Spirit adds to you gifts, such as described in 1 Corinthians 12:7-11.


#Please, don’t you start that too! I view it from the eyes of a Scripture that came centuries later (you claim), but so do you (the Books of the New Testament and many from the Old) came long after Deuteronomy.#

Please, I wasn’t attacking you. I was just stating what Bible teaches me. I said from what Bible teaches me; there will be more prophets to come after Jesus. I just wanted you to know that.
When you said Jesus was talking about “the next prophet after him”, I just thought I might elaborate to you what My Bible teaches me. Nothing more and nothing less.

#Strange, so you think that he prophesised many Prophets but Muhammad (P) can’t be one of them!#

I’m sorry but no. I don’t believe he was a prophet sent by Yahweh.
Bible is links Prophesy to the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Yahweh. That Spirit enters your body and you begin to prophesy, it’s as though God is using your Body as a vessel [and what a great honor that is]. This concept is foreign to Islam / Muslims / Mohammad / Quran.
The only thing Muslims believe about a spirit taking possession or entering a human body is from Jinn; evil spirits, or what I recognise as Shaitans.

[I]#So you are saying that it would make better sense to say ‘the Spirit of truth’ (which would be a translation of the word ‘Al-Ruh-ul-Ameen’) was here referred to; hmm, interesting. Maybe so, but obviously this ‘truthful Spirit’ delivered the Message through Muhammad (P). So the prophecy would still have been fulfilled in Muhammad (P), even if it refers to the Spirit that came to him.#

2 Samuel 23:2
The Spirit of Yahweh spoke by me, His word was on my tongue.

Matthew 10:19-20
But when they deliver you up, don't be anxious how or what you will say, for it will be given you in that hour what you will say. For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Luke 12:11-12
When they bring you before the synagogues, the rulers, and the authorities, don't be anxious how or what you will answer, or what you will say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that same hour what you must say."

Mark 13:11
When they lead you away and deliver you up, don't be anxious beforehand, or premeditate what you will say, but say whatever will be given you in that hour. For it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

Sorry again, but I don’t believe the Holy Spirit is exclusive to Mohammad alone.

Jesus said,
Luke 11:13
How much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?"

Many people I know have asked the Father for the Holy Spirit, but they did not get the spirit that spoke to Mohammad. They rather received the Spirit that comes from God that teaches and brings great wisdom and knowledge.


#Not quite. But see for yourself.#

You are still left with a decision to make.
Is the Holy Spirit in Islam Mohammad or is it the Spirit that appeared to him?

Peace.


When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things.

Hischam Khan
14th February 2004, 06:35
PEACE

You write:

“Since Moses was the leader of the Israelite Community, and the chief spokesman of God, the mediator between his community and God, what would be the use of raising someone like Moses when Moses was already on the scene? Will Moses retire from being the ambassador of God? NO.”


Amazing! Let me remind you that it was you that only a while ago argued that there shouldn’t be a problem for there to be two Messengers. Remember, when you asked why there wasn’t a Nathan in Muhammad’s (P) time? Well, Muhammad (P), like Moses (P) was an “Ambassador”. Why do you contradict yourself so? Use one argument when it suits you and then the exact opposite when it suits you? Unbelievable! Nevertheless, did I say that they should have to be there at the same time? I never gave such an argument! I was only showing you that your argument contradicts itself.

You wrote:

“And since No prophet “Like Moses” (one whom God spoke face to face, whom did great wonders and signs, who feeds a people food from heaven) had risen in the immediate addresses of the community of Israelites, it doesn’t take a lot to realise that it would be to a people after Moses and his community. There was no prophet who was like Moses around Moses’ time, who was ‘a prophet like’ Moses.”

The prophecy says “like you” and not all the extra stuff you added. Nobody is as much like Moses (P) as Muhammad (P) and added to that Muhammad (P) is also “from among their brethren” which Jesus (P) isn’t. Nevertheless, you agree that the “you” in the referred verse does not address the immediate addressees. As such, I am saying the same thing applies in the case of Jesus (P) when he addresses his people as “you”.

You said:

“Jesus breathed on them and said, “Receive”.
When Jesus did that, John 7:39; 14:16-17,26; 15:26; 16:7-8,13 were all fulfilled.
And Acts 1:1-2 was the fulfilment of Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8.”

Exactly! Why do you think I quoted that verse (John 20:22)? – To show you that they RECEIVED the ‘Pneuma’ (which in this case refers to ‘Holy Ghost’) while he was still with them. However, in John 16, he (Jesus) tells us that if he doesn’t go the counsellor will not come. Thus, it becomes clear that the two prophecies are not the same. One refers to the ‘Holy Ghost’ while the other refers to the ‘Spirit of Truth’ (Comforter). In once case, ‘Pneuma’ is used for ‘Ghost’ in the other in reference to the ‘Comforter’. As I said before, ‘Spirit’, even in our language doesn’t always refer to an ‘invisible ghost’.

You wrote:

“The only thing Muslims believe [if I am correct] about a spirit taking possession or entering a human body is from Jinn; evil spirits, or what I recognise as Shaitans.”

Actually, I think that’s also what you get from the Bible (not the Qur’an) but never mind; that is irrelevant to the topic.
You wrote:

“Sorry again, but I don’t believe the Holy Spirit is exclusive to Mohammad alone.”

C-R-O-W, you don’t seem to get what I am saying. I repeatedly stressed that the prophecy of the Comforter, is NOT the same as the others in the Bible that refer to the Holy Ghost; even if the Spirit is used before. I told you several times that ‘Spirit’ can be used differently. I also told you that ‘Pneuma’ can mean both ‘Holy Spirit’ and ‘Holy Ghost’ and that the context would decide which it is. Now, remember that I said that when at Pentecost they received the ‘Holy Ghost’ Peter never quoted what Jesus (P) said in regards to the coming of the ‘Comforter’ but rather the prophecy of Joel. He also mentions a prophecy of Jesus (P) being fulfilled but he doesn’t tell us that this is the prophecy of ‘the Comforter’. So you aren’t refuting what I said.

PEACE BE TO YOU.

nr
14th February 2004, 10:29
I think John makes the disctinction between the Spirit being indwelt within someone and the Spirit being upon someone.

C-R-O-W-
16th February 2004, 04:33
#Amazing! Let me remind you that it was you that only a while ago argued that there shouldn’t be a problem for there to be two Messengers. Remember, when you asked why there wasn’t a Nathan in Muhammad’s (P) time?

Yes, you are right, I wasn’t careful at what I was writing [My apologies]. But what I said in my previous posts [apart from the one before this] still stand. I was saying that since Moses spoke those words, they have been waiting. But since the prophet didn’t come, the author of Deuteronomy ended the book by saying, since then, no prophet like Moses has risen. So yes, from the time God spoke to Moses, they had been waiting, meaning that it was possible that he could have risen in Moses lifetime. SO it did apply to the immediate hearers of the words of Moses until that prophet appeared.
(Sorry for my mistake in my last post)


#The prophecy says “like you” and not all the extra stuff you added. Nobody is as much like Moses (P) as Muhammad (P) and added to that Muhammad (P) is also “from among their brethren” which Jesus (P) isn’t. #

Lets look at the verse again, perhaps it may clear up some of your misconception: -
“I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.”

This is clear, “a prophet from among their brothers, like you”.
God was speaking about the prophet-hood of Moses.
The words “like you [Moses]” is dependent on “a prophet from among their brothers”. So the extra stuff that I talked about are all qualities of Moses’ Prophet-hood.
And Jesus has more things in common with Moses in the “prophet-hood” category.
Go here http://faithful-cat.4t.com/Deut_18_18.htm and read what I wrote. I compared Jesus and Mohammad against Moses in light of Deut 18:17-18. I hope it clears things up for you.
And Mohammad was not “among their brethren”. And [to me] that is a proven fact. See the information in the link, it will tell you more.


[I]# Exactly! Why do you think I quoted that verse (John 20:22)? – To show you that they RECEIVED the ‘Pneuma’ (which in this case refers to ‘Holy Ghost’) while he was still with them. However, in John 16, he (Jesus) tells us that if he doesn’t go the counsellor will not come. Thus, it becomes clear that the two prophecies are not the same. #

Early on Sunday morning Jesus firstly met Mary. He told her to tell his disciples that he is going to his Father. She went and told them. Then in the Sunday evening, Jesus met his disciples.
Between meeting Mary and his disciples, Jesus did go to his Father, thus his prophecy was one in the same as the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth In John 16.
Go here for my explanation. http://faithful-cat.4t.com/John_16_7.htm

Jesus himself was a “Comforter”. He was a “par-ak'-lay-tos”.
A par-ak'-lay-tos is one who: -
“Pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader,”
“Counsel for defence, legal assistant, an advocate”
“One who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor”
We see Jesus praying/interceding for Believers and future believers who believe in the message of his apostles in John 17. So Jesus rightfully was a Comforter.

Now Jesus told his disciples that he will send them ANOTHER “Comforter / par-ak'-lay-tos” to be with them. That Comforter is expected to intercede in behalf on believers, similarly as Jesus did.

Romans 8:26-27
So also the Spirit aideth our weakness. For we know not what to pray for, in a proper manner; but <FONT COLOR=RED>the Spirit intercedes for us</FONT> , with groans not expressible: and the explorer of hearts, he knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit; because he prayeth for the saints, agreeably to the good pleasure of God.


Now Mohammad can’t be this “Comforter/Spirit of Truth” according to Bible because he would need to be unseen; thus the world doesn’t accept him [John 14:17].
Nor can Mohammad be the “Comforter/Spirit of Truth” according to Quran because according to Quran, only Allah is the intercessor. Mohammad can’t come to my aid or for anyone’s aid to plead our case for us before the Father.

Jesus said in John 16 15: - “All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.”

The Father gives to Son => Son gives to Spirit => Spirit gives to us.

But Muslims say
Allah gives to Spirit [Gabriel?] => Spirit gives to Mohammad => Mohammad speaks to us.

It just doesn’t work for me; Jesus is omitted in Muslims version.

And you still have to decide if the Spirit of truth is Mohammad or the Spirit that came to Mohammad.


[I]# Actually, I think that’s also what you get from the Bible (not the Qur’an) but never mind; that is irrelevant to the topic. #

[p.s. I said Muslims and not Quran for a reason.]

Actually I think it is relevant [however small it might be]. The reason prophets prophesy is because they get foreknowledge word from God. Since the Comforter/Holy Spirit is with us he speaks through us.
Look at this

Matthew 10:19-20
But when they deliver you up, don't be anxious how or what you will say, for it will be given you in that hour what you will say. For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

2 Peter 2:21
No prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

I believe God through his spirit speaks through us. His Spirit is in us speaking through us, thus at certain occasions, when men/women prophesy God takes possession of their body. This is one of the functions of the Holy Spirit/Comforter.

I said in my last post
# That Spirit enters your body and you begin to prophesy, it’s as though God is using your Body as a vessel [and what a great honor that is].
This concept is foreign to Islam / Muslims / Mohammad / Quran. #

From my understanding: -
Christians believe that God can take possession of your body, Christians also believe that it is possible for a human to be possessed by a shaitan.
To Muslims they believe that Only shaitans can posses a body.

I hope you get what I am trying to say.

Peace.


When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things.

C-R-O-W-
16th February 2004, 06:58
I found a little something in reference to 1 John 4:1

You said: -
#Remember also that in New Testament times "spirit" could mean "prophet" (c.f. 1 John 4:1).#

I found a verse that questions that assumption.

Remember that: -
A spirit is a spirit
A Human in a human.

1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit say expressly that in later times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons.

1 John 4:1 asks Christians to prove the spirits. The spirit teaches the false prophets; thus we are to test the spirits and not the false prophets. The false prophets [i.e. humans] are simply tools that the evil spirits speak through. Thus there is a clear distinction between spirit and human.

Notice that in both 1 John 4:1 and in 1 Timothy 4:1 that the Spirit [Holy or Demon] they are the sources. The humans are simply mouth peaces for the Spirit; therefore that’s why the author pleads to Christians to test the spirit whether they are of God or not.

Peace


When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things.

Hischam Khan
18th February 2004, 01:03
.C-R-O-W!

Let’s now look at the prophecy in its context (you referred to the end of Deuteronomy which we can’t really say is part of the context):

Deuteronomy 18

14 for these nations whom thou art possessing, unto observers of clouds, and unto diviners, do hearken; and thou -- not so hath Jehovah thy God suffered thee.
15 `A prophet out of thy midst, out of thy brethren, like to me, doth Jehovah thy God raise up to thee -- unto him ye hearken;
16 according to all that thou didst ask from Jehovah thy God, in Horeb (***), in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not add to hear the voice of Jehovah my God, and this great fire let me not see any more, and I die not;
17 and Jehovah saith unto me, They have done well that they have spoken;
18 a prophet I raise up to them, out of the midst of their brethren, like to thee; and I have given my words in his mouth, and he hath spoken unto them all that which I command him;
19 and it hath been -- the man who doth not hearken unto My words which he doth speak in My name, I require [it] of him.
20 `Only, the prophet who presumeth to speak a word in My name -- that which I have not commanded him to speak -- and who speaketh in the name of other gods -- even that prophet hath died.
21 `And when thou sayest in thy heart, How do we know the word which Jehovah hath not spoken? --
22 that which the prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, and the thing is not, and cometh not -- it [is] the word which Jehovah hath not spoken; in presumption hath the prophet spoken it; -- thou art not afraid of him.

*** ‘Horeb’ – if we know who was addressed at Horeb then we can know who is here addressed (the following is a cross reference of the Bible):


“Deuteronomy 5:23

"And when you heard the voice from the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you came near to me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders.”



You think that the word “brothers” refers to one of the twelve tribes however looking at the cross reference in the Bible will let you know that this is not the case. Thus, it becomes clear that all the heads of the tribes (representing their tribes – All of Israel) were here addressed. “Brothers”, thus, as you said is either Esau or Ishmael. Remember that even if the “brothers” were from among the Israelites, they wouldn’t really be brothers (by blood). So the word is not used in that sense. Remember also that the word “brother” or “father” is used differently in the Bible and the context will explain in what sense it is used. I already explained much of this in my discussion with Mule. Looking at Esau’s line we find no such Prophet but looking at Ishmael’s line we do.

In regards to similarities, tell me how many of the following Jesus (P) fits into (by the way they are all attributes of a ‘Prophet’ and not just of a ‘Man’):

a. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), began delivering the word of God in a polytheistic and an idolatrous people. Most of the prophets after Moses (pbuh), in contrast, were sent among a believing and a monotheistic people;
b. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), had to migrate from the land in which he started his ministry, accompanied by his believers. Most of the prophets after Moses (pbuh), in contrast, stayed with the people among whom they were sent;
c. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), established an independent state in the migrated land, there is hardly a prophet after Moses (pbuh), who is similar to him in this respect;
d. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), became the ruler of the state formed after the migration of the believers. There is hardly a prophet after Moses (pbuh), who shares this quality with Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh); Muhammad;
e. Muhammad (pbuh) like Moses (pbuh), implemented the Shari`ah (Ordinances of God) on the state that was formed after the migration of the believers and the subsequent establishment of the state under the rule of the respective prophet;
f. The revelation given to Muhammad (pbuh), like that given to Moses (pbuh), entailed the directive of Jihad - fighting - against the polytheists;
g. The followers of Muhammad (pbuh) after him, like those after Moses (pbuh), expanded the state of the believers to great lengths through their conquests.

The above points (from a-g) are from the main site (written by Moiz Amjad). You also gave quotes from the N.T which you feel prove that they believed him to be the fulfilment of the prophecy, well the same can be done in Muhammad’s (P) case from both the Qur’an and from his addressees. The Qur’an clearly states their similarity:

“We have sent to you a messenger, as a witness [of God's truth] upon you, just as we sent a messenger to the Pharaoh. (Al-Muzzammil 73: 15)”

The above should suffice as a response to what was written in your link and I await your response.

mule
18th February 2004, 07:13
Hey Crow,

Is that your website? I wish I would have seen it. Looks real good. Wish I would have seen it before could have saved me some time. I suppose the Lord wanted me to study. Your link looks real solid. A wealth of info.

mule

Yahya Sulaiman
19th February 2004, 01:28
C-R-O-W, the Gospel was not around at the time of Moses (P). That should be crystal clear from this verse:

"And We sent, following in their footsteps [i.e. the footsteps of most of the prophets], Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and We gave to him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition unto the godfearing." (The Koran Interpreted 5:46)

It was obviously a written document. The parable told at the end of Surah 48 makes that clear, as it bears so much resemblance to Mark 4:26-29 so as to suggest either that it's the same parable or that a different but extremely similar (i.e. parallel) parable in the Gospel of the Nazarenes. Those kinds of parallels exist a lot between Gospels (example: most of the Gospel of Thomas and its parallel verses in the canonical Gospels), so I would say that Koran 61:6 is either directly quoting or paraphrasing the Gospel of the Nazarenes, and it would not at all be unreasonable to consider this parallel to the relevant "paraclete" statement in John if we're right about that. It all fits the usual mould of parallel passages between Gospels. That's just how they work.

That is the Gospel prophecy, which is found in more than one Gospel. Deuteronomy 18 is the prophecy from the Torah. The other prophecies in other books (which you do not respond to, but only respond to by pouring abuse on our heads, saying your little sister could refute them with flying colors--in that case, why not try it yourself?) are hinted at in this passage:

"Surely We have sent thee with the truth good tidings to bear, and warning; not a nation there is, but there has passed away in it a warner. If they cry thee lies, those before them also cried lies; their Messengers came to them with the clear signs, the Psalms, the Illuminating Book; then Illuminating Book." (The Koran Interpreted 35:24-25)

The "Illuminating Book", or "the Book", i.e. the Koran, was given to every prophet, as you can see from the above verse. Every prophet knew the Koran, and it was the source of their teachings. (It also taught them the future, even about themselves in many cases.) And there were prophets in all civilizations. So there you go. I doubt that none of them wrote down their prophecies apart from the four explicitly mentioned in the Koran.

http://www.freewebs.com/ziggyzag

C-R-O-W-
21st February 2004, 09:23
#“Brothers”, thus, as you said is either Esau or Ishmael.#

I did not say that Ishmael was Israel’s brother. I said, Esau is the closest brother of Israel. But Ishmael is the uncle of Israel [as well as to Esau].
And when “brothers”, apart from Israelites are mentioned, I believe the-Bible specifies which brother it is talking about. I.e. when talking about the descendants of Esau’s, the Bible specifies which “brothers” they were. Thus when you say that Moses was talking about the ishmaelite brothers, you force your idea into what Bible says.

I will respond to your other points soon, just got to gather my info and put it into one.


Mule………
#Is that your website? #

Yeah it is. Well, its good u studying ;)


Yahya……..

I will respond to you soon.

Peace.


When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things

Hischam Khan
21st February 2004, 14:17
When I said “As you said”, I was referring to what you said about Esau.

No I do not force my “ideas”, I told you specifically that the term “brothers” can be used in various ways. It doesn’t have to be so literally otherwise the Bible would be wrong in calling the Israelites brothers. The context will make out who is being referred to. The Ishmaelites are the Children of Ishmael and the Israelites are the children of Isaac; thus they can very well be called brothers.

Keep in mind that it was all of Israel that was here referred to and not just a few tribes of Israel. It is most important that you show us how Jesus (P) can possibly be from among their (Israelis) brothers because if you can’t all the rest fails too (like their similarities). So, I await your info.

C-R-O-W-
28th February 2004, 03:25
#You think that the word “brothers” refers to one of the twelve tribes however looking at the cross reference in the Bible will let you know that this is not the case. Thus, it becomes clear that all the heads of the tribes (representing their tribes – All of Israel) were here addressed. “Brothers”, thus, as you said is either Esau or Ishmael. #

What I was saying was that because Israel was split into 12 family/tribe groups, each tribe calls the other tribe their “brothers”. Whenever someone is addressing the Israelites, when they speak about “Brother”, one is strongly inclined to understand it as it is talking about the 12 tribes of Israel. This is not my wish. Even from my link, you have seen where “Brother” is talked about; it is usually about the tribes of Israel.
As someone rightfully mentioned in this board, that if they are talking about external or distant family related tribes, their names are mentioned to define which “brother” they were, For example Esau.
From what I know, Ishmael was never described as Israel’s “brother”.
Thus, if “the Prophet” was going to come from one of the tribes of Israel, then there is no need to define whom the “Brother” is because the Prophet would come from within Israel. If the Prophet was to come from outside Israel, there is no mention of who the “brother” is.
So generally, when Brother is used in a loose term [i.e. without definition] when addressing the Israelites, it is usually within the tribes of Israel. If “Brother” is used to mean, someone outside of Israel, usually that brother is defined as to which distant relative it is refereed to.
ONE other thing is, that in Deut 18, Yahweh said, [I]“I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers” Brother is not singular, rather plural. And to me that sounds like its from the 12 .

[I]#a. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), began delivering the word of God in a polytheistic and an idolatrous people. Most of the prophets after Moses (pbuh), in contrast, were sent among a believing and a monotheistic people;#

Mohammad was there to preach to people to convert the people into his preaching but Moses was not out to preach and to convert the Egyptians into his preaching; he was there to free the Israelites. I know Quran says that some Egyptians converted but Bible is clear that Moses was there to free Israel.
Thus, UNLIKE.

#b. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), had to migrate from the land in which he started his ministry, accompanied by his believers. Most of the prophets after Moses (pbuh), in contrast, stayed with the people among whom they were sent; #

Moses was not persecuted for his religion. Moses migrated [alone] because he murdered an Egyptian. Like I said before, Moses was not there to convert Egyptians, rather to free Israelites.
If my understanding is correct, Mohammad heard the message; then after that he preached, then he was persecuted and had to migrate. Moses was not like that.


#c. Muhammad (pbuh), like Moses (pbuh), established an independent state in the migrated land, there is hardly a prophet after Moses (pbuh), who is similar to him in this respect;#

Israelites were always on the move. Starting from 40 years wondering around and around in the desert, straightaway after leaving Egypt, then they crossed the river, where Moses did not continue being with them. It was after Moses died that they started to settle into a “state”. By the time of King David, they were a well-established state, with a King.

[P.s. I think point ‘C’ and ‘D’ are literally the same thing.]


[I]#g. The followers of Muhammad (pbuh) after him, like those after Moses (pbuh), expanded the state of the believers to great lengths through their conquests. #

When the Israelites gained land, it was because of the promise of Yahweh, which He made to Abraham their father. What the Israelites did was simply the fulfilment of Gods promise. [This partially answers your point f]
Thus when Israelites gained land, they did not settle there, nor did they rule it for long because God had greater plans for them. God was going to give them the land of the Canaanites [i.e. fulfilment of Yahweh’s promise]. But what the Muslim/Arab armies did, did they do it out of Yahweh’s promise?
[I don’t know how far this is true but even after the conquest of Syria Iran Iraq etc… the Muslim armies were conquering land that already belonged to the Children of Abraham.] [But when Israelites went to the land of Esau’s descendants, Yahweh commanded Israelite’s not to touch their land because Yahweh already ordained that land for Esau’s descendants.]


[I don’t know how right or wrong I am, but I am giving you what I think so feel free to correct me if I am in error.]

Peace

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things

C-R-O-W-
28th February 2004, 03:26
YAHYA

#the Gospel was not around at the time of Moses (P).#

Sura 7
“He[Allah] said [to Moses]: "With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extendeth to all things. That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practise regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs. Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel”

Allah here indicates that Moses and the Israelites possessed “the Gospel” with “the Torah” where this ummi Prophet is described.

“Fî(In) At(The)-Tawrâati(Torah) Wa(And) Al(The)-'Injîli (Gospel)”

#It was obviously a written document.#

Yeah, a written document, in Moses time.


((QUOTE))
The Qur’an, by the names ‘Torah’ and ‘Injeel’ refers to what was called ‘Torah’ and ‘Injeel’ in the environment in which the Qur’an was revealed. It is obvious that had the Qur’an implied something else by these words, it was then necessary to clarify that the words were being used to imply something different from what they were commonly used in the environment. It should be kept in mind that the implication of words in a good piece of literature cannot be against the common usage of such words. If such is the case, it can only be considered a flaw in that piece of literature. For example, in the contemporary English language, the phrase “the prophet” (in singular form) is used only for Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). If any contemporary English writer uses the phrase to imply any other person, it would only be considered a serious mistake and flaw in his writing, unless he/she explicitly or implicitly clarifies in his writing that the phrase has been used in a meaning different from its generally understood connotation.
It may, however, be noted that the ‘Torah’ and the ‘Injeel’ (especially the Injeel) that we have in our hands today are not necessarily the ones which were referred to as the Torah and the Injeel by the first addressees of the Qur’an. This is substantiated by a few references of the Qur’an to the Jews and Christians living in the environment of the revelation of the Qur’an. For instance, the Qur’an has referred to a particular sect of Jews, who hold “`uzair” to be the son of God. This obviously is a reference to a particular sect of Jews, who held `uzair to be the Son of God (as the mainstream Jews do not, generally, ascribe to this belief). Furthermore, it should be interesting to note that the Qur’an has referred to the Christians in its environment, by the name of “Nasaara”, while, it is known that the general (mainstream) Christians had come to be known as “Christians” or “Maseehee” from a very early period of Christianity (as is mentioned in the Biblical book “Acts of the Prophets”). In view of this fact, it seems quite plausible that the Christians living in the Arabian Peninsula at the time of the revelation of the Qur’an were generally those who ascribed to the Nazarene creed. The Nazarenes were a Syrian Judeo-Christian sect that came to be recognized in the fourth century AD. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:
“Although they [the Nazarenes] accepted the divinity of Christ and his supernatural birth, the Nazarenes also maintained strict observance of Jewish laws and customs, a practice that had been dropped by the majority of Jewish Christians. They used a version of the Gospel in Aramaic called the Gospel According to the Hebrews, or the Gospel of the Nazarenes.”
((END QUOTE))


#so I would say that Koran 61:6 is either directly quoting or paraphrasing the Gospel of the Nazarenes#

Did the followers of this Nazarene Gospel believe that Jesus came to fulfil what was written about him in the Law prophets and Psalms?
Did they believe that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected on the third day?
Or did they believe Jesus escaped the cross as Muslims preach?


Now here is an interesting piece of writing….Please read it carefully.

((QUOTE))


The derivation of this name is obscure. Most commentators related it to
'netzer' (branch) of Isaiah 11.1-10, but I personally reject this view in favor
of a 'disparaging use' of the term, something like 'rejected' or 'not
esteemed'.</P>


The first usage of this term for a group is Acts 24:</P>
<DIR>
<DIR>


And after five days the high priest Ananias came down with some elders, with
a certain attorney named Tertullus; and they brought charges to the governor
against Paul. 2 And after Paul had been summoned, Tertullus began to accuse him,
saying to the governor, "Since we have through you attained much peace,
and since by your providence reforms are being carried out for this nation, 3 we
acknowledge this in every way and everywhere, most excellent Felix, with all
thankfulness. 4 "But, that I may not weary you any further, I beg you to grant
us, by your kindness, a brief hearing. 5 "For we have found this man a real pest
and a fellow who stirs up dissension among all the Jews throughout the world,
and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes. 6 "And he even tried to
desecrate the temple; and then we arrested him. [And we wanted to judge him
according to our own Law. 7 "But Lysias the commander came along, and with much
violence took him out of our hands, 8 ordering his accusers to come before you.]
And by examining him yourself concerning all these matters, you will be able to
ascertain the things of which we accuse him." 9 And the Jews also joined in the
attack, asserting that these things were so.</P></DIR></DIR>


It is clear from this that the term 'Nazarenes' does not apply to a sect
within followers of Jesus, but to a sect within Judaism itself.</P>


Paul does not shrink from associating himself with this group (important to
notice!), but prefers to use the believers' favorite term for themselves
(24.14):</P>
<DIR>
<DIR>


"But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a
sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in
accordance with the Law, and that is written in the Prophets;
</P></DIR></DIR>


It is important to note that Jesus did NOT give any such name to His group.
He refers to them as disciples and believers and followers and friends and
students, but does NOT give them a 'group name'. He does refer to the group as a
generic 'church' or 'assembly' (Matt 16.18: "And I also say to you that you
are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of
Hades shall not overpower it.").The believers normally refer to themselves
as 'the church' (75+ times in the NT).</P>


But the enemies of the new group found a name--the 'despised' name of its
Founder--Nazarene. It shows up in negative usage in the period (e.g. the lawyer
above, Pilate's title on the Cross, the Talmuds). But the church arrived at
something more neutral (but still of obscure derivation)--'followers of the
Way':</P>
<UL>
<LI>Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the
Lord, went to the high priest, 2 and asked for letters from him to the
synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way,
both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. (Acts 9.1-2)

<LI>And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three
months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God. 9 But when
some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way
before the multitude, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples,
reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. (Acts 19.8-9)
<LI>And about that time there arose no small disturbance concerning the
Way. (Acts 19.23)
<LI>But Felix, having a more exact knowledge about the Way, put them
off, saying, "When Lysias the commander comes down, I will decide your case."
(Acts 24.22)</LI>[/list]


This self-designation may be based on Jesus' statements about being the Way
(John 14.4-6) , the effect of the movement ("way of salvation" Acts 16.7), or
simply a reference to the 'correct' Way of the Lord (Acts 18.25-26). In any
event, we do not know where it came from, nor does it really matter. It is only
important to note that the church did NOT call itself 'Nazarene' during this
time period. </P>


With 'Christian' being the term used by Gentiles to describe believers, we
get the following terms within the first 15 years of the Cross:</P>
<DIR>
<DIR>


1. "Nazarenes" was the term used by Jewish 'enemies' about the Church.</P>


2. "Christian" was the term used by Gentiles about the Church.</P>


3. "Followers of the Way" was the term sometimes used by the church about
herself.</P>


4. "The church" is the most common way the believers described the group of
Jesus' followers (some 75+ references in the NT)</P></DIR></DIR>


Now, this is all the data we have from the NT, but the Church Fathers provide
some data that gets closer to the poster's intent. However, it should be
recognized that the NT documents (mostly 'post-Pauline' to use the idea of the
poster) do NOT indicate the existence of an internal sect called the Nazarenes.
There are many and varied factions and 'parties' described as comprising the
church (e.g. Acts 23.9; Gal 2.12; I Cor 3) but NONE of them are called
'Nazarene' or 'Ebionite' etc. It is therefore unwarranted to label the early
church as 'Nazarene' in the same sense as the Nazarene sect of the
post-apostolic era.</P>

((END QUOTE))



Peace.


When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things