View Full Version : Why "The Law" and "The Gospel" Are Not OT, NT
25th January 2004, 00:48
The article is at the bottom of the page. I think everyone should take a look if they will, especially mule and C-R-O-W.
Edited by - Yahya on 01/24/2004 22:17:10
25th January 2004, 17:07
Please don't name me in your thread starters, it makes me angry.
I wonder what the christian schools are coming to if a student with high marks in theology does not know where the bible defines the gospel.
Edited by - mule on 01/25/2004 13:11:05
25th January 2004, 19:09
Here is where the Gospel is defined:
1Cr 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cr 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
The gospel is defined as Christ dying for your sins according to the bible and that he was buried and rose again the 3rd day fullfilling the scriptures in the old testament.
25th January 2004, 23:11
What I said was that it was the preaching of the alleged New Covenant. That's the same thing that you said.
26th January 2004, 00:19
#3. Nowhere in the New Testament is the phrase “the Gospel” used to refer to scripture. The only verse you could even make a case for in that respect is Mark 1:1, where the phrase stills seems to go by its literal meaning of “good news”.#
# Christians today do not refer to the New Testament as “the Gospel”, and as far as I know, they never have in all of history.#
“The Gospel”, if you don’t know is not a Gospel that is written.
Muslims, due to the influence of Quran, think that “The Gospel” was an actual Book; one like Torah and Quran. Unfortunately that is not correct.
The Gospel is to be proclaimed. Not read.
Let me quote you Biblical understanding of what The Gospel was.
And Jesus went about in all of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues <font color=red>and proclaiming the Gospel of the kingdom</font> and healing every disease and every sickness among the people.
And <font color=red>this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole inhabited earth for a testimony to all the nations</font>, and then the end will come.
For the poor you have with you always, but you do not always have Me. For in pouring out this ointment on My body, she has done for My burial. Truly I say to you, <font color=red>Wherever this Gospel is proclaimed in the whole world</font>, what this woman has done shall also be told as a memorial of her.
And after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, <font color=red>proclaiming the Gospel of God, </font> And saying, The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God has drawn near. <font color=red>Repent and believe in the Gospel. </font>
But you take heed to yourselves. They will deliver you to sanhedrins, and in the synagogues you will be beaten, and before governors and kings you will stand for My sake, for a testimony to them. Yet <font color=red>the Gospel must first be proclaimed to all the nations. </font>
John answered and said to all, I baptize you in water, but He who is stronger than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He Himself will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire, Whose winnowing fan is in His hand to thoroughly cleanse His threshing floor and to gather the wheat into His barn, but the chaff He will burn up with unquenchable fire. So, exhorting them with many other things also, <font color=red>he announced the Gospel to the people. </font>
And when day came, He [Jesus] departed and went into a deserted place. And the crowds sought Him, and they came up to Him and tried to hold on to Him so that He would not go away from them. But He said to them, <font color=red>I must announce the Gospel of the kingdom of God to the other cities also, because for this I was sent. </font> And He preached in the synagogues of Judea.
And soon afterward He journeyed from city to city and village to village, <font color=red>preaching and announcing the Gospel of the kingdom of God; and the twelve were with Him</font>
And He called together the twelve and gave them power and authority over all the demons and to heal diseases. And He sent them to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick… And they went out and passed through village after village, <font color=red>announcing the Gospel and healing everywhere</font>
And on one of the days, as He [Jesus] was <font color=red>teaching</font> the people in the temple <font color=red>and announcing the good news. </font>
But when they believed, <font color=red>Philip, who announced the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and of the name of Jesus Christ, </font> they were baptised both men and women…But Philip was found in Azotus; and <font color=red>passing through he announced the Gospel to all the cities</font> until he came to Caesarea.
1 Corinthians 1:17-18
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to <font color=red>preach The Gospel-</font>-not in wisdom of words, so that the cross of Christ wouldn't be made void. For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are dying, but to us who are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Now I declare to you, brothers, <font color=red>the Gospel which I preached to you, </font>which also you received, in which you also stand, <font color=red>by which also you are saved, </font> if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
2 Corinthians 11:4
For if he who comes <font color=red>preaches another Jesus, whom we did not preach, </font> or if you receive a different spirit, which you did not receive, or <font color=red>a different Gospel, which you did not accept, </font> you put up with that well enough.
But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should <font color=red>preach to you any Gospel other than that which we preached to you</font>, let him be cursed.
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5
We know, brothers loved by God, that you are chosen, and that<font color=red> our Gospel came to you not in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, </font> and with much assurance.
You will notice that a lot of times when “The Gospel” is mentioned, the word “Kingdom of God” or “The Kingdom” is close by.
There is a reason for that: -
The law and the prophets were until John; from that time <font color=red>the kingdom of God is proclaimed [I]as the Gospel, </font>and everyone forces his way into it.
You see, Gods kingdom that was preached in the Old Testament is now being preached as “The Gospel”. When Jesus taught the Gospel, he was preaching about Gods Kingdom. And part of Jesus’ ministry was ‘fulfilling what was written about him in Scripture’.
E.g. Luke 4: 17-21
And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
<PRE>"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
because He has anointed Me to announce the Gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to send away in release those who are oppressed,
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, the year of jubilee.''
And when He rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant, He sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. And He began to say to them, ‘Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing’.
So you see, Jesus’ taught the Gospel that the people needed to hear at his time. Even John the Baptist preached the Gospel to the people.
But after the death and resurrection of Jesus, the Gospel advanced from John the Baptist’s Gospel, and Jesus’ Quote from Isaiah, into the Gospel which in Matthew and Luke,
Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. <font color=red> Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things which I commanded you.</font> Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that<font color=red> repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.</font> You are witnesses of these things. Behold, I send forth the promise of my Father on you. But wait in the city of Jerusalem until you are clothed with power from on high."
Ireanious, an early Church father wrote
“For, after our Lord rose from the dead, [the apostles] were invested with power from on high when the Holy Spirit came down [upon them], were filled from all [His gifts], and had perfect knowledge: they departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of the good things [sent] from God to us, and proclaiming the peace of heaven to men, who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God.”
“For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to "the perfect" apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves.”
Jesus’ disciples understood the Kingdom of God.
[Luke 8:9-10 Mark 4:10-12 Matt 13:10-11 ]”
Now, after a certain time, near the end times of the world, there will be a Gospel that will be preached to the inhabitants of the world. And this Gospel will be the FINAL GOSPEL, which will be preached. It will become the ETERNAL GOSPEL.
And I saw another angel flying in heaven: and with blood, <font color=red>he had the everlasting Gospel</font>, to proclaim to dwellers on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; saying with a loud voice, Worship God, and give glory to him; because the hour of his judgment is come; and adore ye Him, who made heaven and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of water.
I don’t know what kind of Gospel it [the final Gospel] will be, but after that, there is no more repenting, and if anyone misses this last opportunity to get saved, there is no more turning back. The door will be shut. The master will not let anyone in. Many will knock at the door, but the Master will say, “Go away, I never know you.”
That is my understanding about the Gospel.
They all have different levels in them, yet they all contain repentance and the forgivenes of sins.
#It might be nice if life would always give us definite answers and have everything drawn in black and white, but such is not the case, here or elsewhere. The Koran does not confirm the Bible as a whole.#
Well, to my understanding, The-Bible has no need for Quran. Bible can stand on its own two feet without Quran’s help.
Ironically, it is Quran that mentions Gospel, Psalms and Law, not the other way round.
Edited by - C-R-O-W- on 01/25/2004 18:27:45
26th January 2004, 00:35
Yes, we've been talking about that sense of the word "Gospel", but then there is another sense in which the word "Gospel", used in post-New Testament times, can refer to one of the many books written which purport to preach the Gospel that the blessed Jesus taught. St. Paul did not write any such books, at least in the epistles of his which were included in the New Testament canon, but only a summary of the blessed Jesus's life according to him which I think was in 2 Corinthians. The Koran, unlike the Bible, refers to an unidentified scripture called the Gospel:
"Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet of the common folk, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, bidding them to honour, and forbidding them dishonour, making lawful for them the good things and making unlawful for them the corrupt things, and relieving them of their loads, and the fetters that were upon them. Those who believe in him and succour him and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him--they are the prosperers. (The Koran Interpreted 7:157)
"Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another...Their likeness in the Gospel: as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows stout and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them He may enrage the unbelievers." (The Koran Interpreted 48:29)
"Then We sent, following in their footsteps, Our Messengers; and We sent, following, Jesus son of Mary, and gave unto him the Gospel. And We set in the hearts of those who followed him tenderness and mercy. And monasticism they invented--e did not prescribe it for the--only seeking the good pleasure of God; but they observed it not as it should be observed. So We gave those of them who believed their wage; and many of them are ungodly." (The Koran Interpreted 57:27)
Occasionally the Book might be referring to the more abstract sense of the Gospel, but this is obviously the one that the blessed Jesus preached. That's another problem with the Gospel being the New Testament, and St. Paul's words being used from it to contradict Islam--his words contradict Islam! From start to finish, his message is contrary to the attitude the Koran has from beginning to end. Quite obviously (from a secular point of view) a quotation of the Gospel would indicate a familiarity with it, and yet the gospel of St. Paul is totally and definitively un-Islamic from beginning to end. The blessed Muhammad understood the Old Testament teachings and many Bible stories pretty well for someone who was talking out of his rear end about the previous scriptures, as missionaries often claim he was.
And the reasons we think the Bible can't stand on its own two feet are that: (1) it has been corrupted, (2) it prophesied the blessed Muhammad's coming, and (3) it is a volume, arbitrarily put together, which contains unIslamic teachings such as St. Paul's.
26th January 2004, 00:40
C-R-O-W, You said:
“But the Master will say, “Go away, I never know you.”
I think you refer to the following which I quote adding a bit of emphasises in brackets.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father (Submits to the will of God or Islam/Muslim) who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name (Who prophecies in his name; Muslims? No), and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles (Who does those things; not the Muslims)?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers (Ooops)!'
26th January 2004, 01:00
The word Gospel comes from a section of Isaiah where God says something like, "blessed are those whose feet carry the good news" that justice has been won.
26th January 2004, 01:12
Indeed...and here are some more of such passages to boot.
"And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, 'Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?' And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" (Mark 10:17-19)
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." (John 10:27-29)
"You heard me say to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
There is not a single instance in the canonical Gospels or the Gospel of Thomas of the blessed Jesus claiming to be God, and for reasons I make clear in my articles on the Trinity and the Trilemma on my site, every verse used to support the claim that he did is either taken grossly out of context or very obviously misinterpreted. So there is no reason to believe that the Law and Gospel mentioned in the Koran are the Old and New Testaments, and additionally no reason to believe in the Incarnation, which is the basis of the Trinity doctrine. Consarn it, the Trinity doctrine isn't even in the Bible to begin with.
26th January 2004, 02:29
If you think that the bible was corupted why should it matter that the bible teaches the trinity or the deity of Christ?
26th January 2004, 03:34
It just seems strange to us that you believe in things that we cannot find any strong evidence for in your Book of authority.
Edited by - Hischam Khan on 01/25/2004 21:35:28
26th January 2004, 03:51
The Bible does not teach either thing. This ultimately doesn't matter to us, but I think it should matter to you. You are basing your life on things taught by humans rather than by what you consider the Word of God. The Trinity wasn't even spoken of in print until a couple of decades before it was set down in the Nicene Creed. Now that's three hundred years we're talking about. Does it not strike you as a little bit funny that the doctrine is not outlined in the Bible and also does not surface in literature for three hundred years? As Osama Abdallah argued, take a look at this passage...
"And when he had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. When he drew near to Beth'phage and Bethany, at the mount that is called Olivet, he sent two of the disciples, saying, 'Go into the village opposite, where on entering you will find a colt tied, on which no one has ever yet sat; untie it and bring it here. If any one asks you, 'Why are you untying it?' you shall say this, 'The Lord has need of it.'' So those who were sent went away and found it as he had told them. And as they were untying the colt, its owners said to them, 'Why are you untying the colt?' And they said, 'The Lord has need of it.' And they brought it to Jesus, and throwing their garments on the colt they set Jesus upon it. And as he rode along, they spread their garments on the road." (Luke 19:28-36)
...and tell me why, if an activity like this is described in such detail, you get absolutely zero detail about a Trinity.
26th January 2004, 11:08
The difference between the Four Gospel accounts and Paul is that The Four Gospel accounts were written about Jesus and Hid ministry. Luke and John are a bit more explicit.
Since many have undertaken to set in order a narrative concerning those matters which have been fulfilled among us, even as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write to you in order, most excellent Theophilus; that you might know the certainty concerning the things in which you were instructed.
Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.
This is the disciple who testifies about these things, and wrote these things. We know that his witness is true. There are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they would all be written, I suppose that even the world itself wouldn't have room for the books that would be written.
The reason the Gospel is not a book was that the Gospel is to be preached; in our present time, the Gospel is that God sent his Only begotten [unique/ one of the kind] Son into the world to die for us on the cross. He was buried and on the third day was resurrected. Anyone his name to be preached throughout the world and anyone who believes in his name is given the right to be called Son of God. And repentance and forgiveness of sins is preached in his name. And so on and so on…..
Quran eludes the Gospel to be given to Jesus but John the Baptist too preached the Gospel Jesus also sent his 12 disciples and at another time 72 of his disciples to preach the Gospel. Before he sent them, he instructed them with these words: -
“And as you go, proclaim, saying, the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, and cast out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. Do not acquire for yourselves gold nor silver nor copper for your belts; No bag for the journey nor two tunics nor sandals nor a staff; for the worker is worthy of his food. And into whatever city or village you enter, find out who in it is worthy; and there remain until you depart. And as you enter into the house, greet it. And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever does not receive you nor hear your words, as you go out of that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. ”
And after they returned from preaching, they came to Jesus and said: -
“Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name. And He said to them, I was watching Satan fall like lightning out of heaven. Behold, I have given you the authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. However do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in the heavens.”
You see The Gospel is about freedom from the bondage of Satan into freedom into the light of God. The Gospel is not words written on paper by pen, nor is it a written word to be recited; rather the Gospel is the forgiveness of sins and the demonstration of the Power of God. That’s why when preachers preach, at the end they ask the people under the sound of their voice to come forward to be healed if they have any kind of disease, and the people get healed, from asthma, lung disease, heart problem cancer or any other need.
Let me give u an example, in about a months time, a preacher called Benny Hinn is going to India to preach, and already government ministers who banned him from entering the country are now asking for some time with him personally so that he can pray for them directly. SO much so that the Indian Prime Minister himself is going to greet him when he lands in India. And they are expecting over 1.5 million Indians to come, many of them will probably not be even Christians, but they want to get healed. Benny is known to be a man with Gods anointing, he has healed people who couldn’t walk and those who were paralysed.
You see so many are coming because they need healing. This is the Gospel in action. Just like Jesus roamed around Judea and Galilee preaching and healing; disciples of Jesus to this day continue to do what Jesus did, heal and pray for the sick.
Jesus said, “Most assuredly I tell you, he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these will he do; because I am going to my Father.”
To me, I prefer the Gospel that is described in The-Bible over the Gospel that is described in Quran because the Gospel I follow is not just words but has power. And the power comes from Gods Holy Spirit, that lives in every born again Christian.
The Quran’s Gospel will always be a mystery, both for Muslims and Christians. So why waist time wondering when there is a Gospel that is in-front of my eyes!
Now about Paul,
The Apostle Paul’s writings are letters written to certain groups of people, E,g, to the Church in Corinth and Galatia, and there are other letters that are personally written, e.g. Philemon, and Timothy.
From what I have heard, many of Paul’s writing was in reply to letters he received from certain Churches.
And if Paul’s letters were “un-Islamic”, it doesn’t wary Christians, because his letters are for Christians, he wrote them to people who were already in the faith, who believed in the Gospel that was preached to them.
So if you don’t believe in the Gospel that is preached, mainly about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus it’s no mystery why Islam does not agree with Paul or most other letters in N.T.
Edited by - C-R-O-W- on 01/26/2004 05:09:24
26th January 2004, 11:21
As I said in the other thread, C-R-O-W, I'm through with you now. Sorry.
26th January 2004, 11:32
Actually I was referring to
Matt 25 1-13
"Then the Kingdom of Heaven will be like ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. Those who were foolish, when they took their lamps, took no oil with them, but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. Now while the bridegroom delayed, they all slumbered and slept. But at midnight there was a cry, 'Behold! The bridegroom is coming! Come out to meet him!' Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. The foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' But the wise answered, saying, 'What if there isn't enough for us and you? You go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.' While they went away to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us.' But he answered, 'Most assuredly I tell you, I don't know you.' Watch therefore, for you don't know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
The verses you quoted, I think it has to do with after Jesus returns.
[if I am correct ] What I was referring to was before Jesus returns.
[I am not very acquainted with the Book of Revelations.]
26th January 2004, 12:05
My intention was not to convert anyone, I simply came in this board to debate, but if you did convert, well, hay, that’s a bonus and I would be very happy for you.
I know I have said some bad things, and things I regret typing [to you and others on this board], but what is done is done, I can’t change it.
I think you have judged me wrong. To be honest with you, the stuff about Sura 2 was the one that really drained me, and after that I went on a downhill slide.
I mean we have had some good discussions, and you can’t deny that. And to tell you the truth, I don’t have a great deal of knowledge, I am only 20, so if you got annoyed with me, I am sorry. I am sure I can bring myself up to be more mature in my debating and talking to you [and others].
I too have read some of the previous threads I wrote, and can understand where you are coming from.
I am not going down hill anymore, I am starting to go uphill, and if you choose to be through with me, your choice. But if you choose to give me another chance, I hope I will not disappoint you. And perhaps you will see the side of me that you saw when we first started talking. [I am sure you miss that, I know I do]
26th January 2004, 20:10
Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and sincere exhortations and debate with them in manners that are most appropriate (Al-Nahl 16:25)
I just want to request all the muslim brothers and sisters to keep the above verse of The Holy Qur`an in mind while debatin with someone.
26th January 2004, 22:10
I'll give the matter some thought, based on both what C-R-O-W and palm said.
27th January 2004, 02:37
Okay, I'll give C-R-O-W another chance--I mean, it's not really my choice, is it? It's my duty to show him the veracity of Islam whenever I can, and I think he's already begun to see the light. C-R-O-W, I think we have a lot in common, and I would like to talk to you some more.
28th January 2004, 11:08
Thanks, and sorry.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.